[casual_games] RE: Casual_Games Digest, Vol 2, Issue 25
Brent Lowrie
brent.lowrie at raremethod.com
Wed Aug 31 20:04:55 EDT 2005
Hi Kim
Great advice! I met with our President and CEO this morning and he has committed to investing in our first game as a test and to see how things go from there. He seems to be warming up. You have all given me some great ideas as research starters and I will be following up on your suggestions.
I don't think we even use the term "Indie Game", especially when referring to what we do.
Brent Lowrie
Games & Animation
RARE METHOD
500, 1812 4th Street S.W. Calgary AB T2S 1W1
P. 403.543.4500 x341 F. 403.532.3004
www.raremethod.com
games.raremethod.com
Strategic Interactive Marketing
Provoke Thought Direct Action Get Results
-----Original Message-----
From: casual_games-bounces at igda.org [mailto:casual_games-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Kim Pallister
Sent: August 31, 2005 10:51 AM
To: casual_games at igda.org
Subject: [casual_games] RE: Casual_Games Digest, Vol 2, Issue 25
Hi Brent,
I like John's "bootstrapping" approach.
Maybe for a project or two, give up the IP to the publisher in exchange for some agreement about how your studio is prominently given credit?
In terms of selling your management on the "build it after they've bought it" approach being wrong; I'd build a strong case of why this may not apply like it does in other media. Skeleton of your argument might look like this:
- Total turn-around time for non-game media production elsewhere in the
firm: (say it's 2 months for print ads or whatever it is they do)
- Development time for an advergame game, soup-to-nuts (say it's 6
months)
- Explain how clients are going to approach wanting the 2 month turn around time, and that isn't possible unless you are already 2/3 of the way there before they even approach you.
- Explain your crafty, innovative, idea (hey, you said they don't understand games right?) of building an engine separate from the content, and that you'll have a platform ready-to-go when clients approach that (a) will let you turn projects around quicker, and (b) will be re-usable for multiple projects.
If they don't see the logic there, well, not sure what to do then.
Kim
P.S. It's an aside, but I notice that many people use the terms casual game and indie game interchangeably. I'd argue that's wrong and will be increasingly wrong going forward as casual game production quality & budgets go up.
Just my 2c.
-----Original Message-----
From: casual_games-bounces at igda.org
[mailto:casual_games-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of casual_games-request at igda.org
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 9:03 AM
To: casual_games at igda.org
Subject: Casual_Games Digest, Vol 2, Issue 25
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Today's Topics:
1. RE: Business Models (George Donovan)
2. RE: Business Models (Brent Lowrie)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 08:00:36 -0300
From: "George Donovan" <george at infiknowledge.com>
Subject: RE: [casual_games] Business Models
To: "'IGDA Casual Games SIG Mailing List'" <casual_games at igda.org>
Message-ID: <20050831110039.DA47CFA961 at mailwash7.pair.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
John,
How do we get Gamefiesta listed as a publisher?
_____
From: casual_games-bounces at igda.org
[mailto:casual_games-bounces at igda.org]
On Behalf Of John Welch
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 4:25 AM
To: IGDA Casual Games SIG Mailing List
Subject: RE: [casual_games] Business Models
Brent,
There's a middle road - work with a publisher who will fund a serious project (take all of the risk) and give you far more exposure (it's not just about development) as well as ongoing participation (upside far better than work-for-hire). Ideas are cheap - execution counts. If you can do it well once, you can do it better the next time. So, get a publisher deal and use it to learn the ropes, build your business case, and get some name recognition in the casual space. If you like what you see, think about self-funding your next project. Talking from experience, starting from scratch isn't easy - but once you have some momentum it's a heck of a lot of fun.
There aren't many publishers in the casual space, but there are a few of us, and terms are currently a lot better than "traditional"
developer-publisher
contracts. Each publisher has its personality and benefits, but I don't think you could go wrong with any of them. There's a list of publishers addressing this space in the SIG's 2005 white paper:
www.igda.org/casual.
-John W.
________________________
John Welch, President & CEO
PLAY: <http://www.playfirst.com/> www.PlayFirst.com
________________________
_____
From: casual_games-bounces at igda.org
[mailto:casual_games-bounces at igda.org]
On Behalf Of Brent Lowrie
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 12:09 AM
To: IGDA Casual Games SIG Mailing List; IGDA Casual Games SIG Mailing List
Subject: RE: [casual_games] Business Models
See, this is why I joined the IGDA! thanks everyone for the replies.
It was before I discovered the IGDA and its Casual Games SIG that researching the industry was difficult. without friends and connections in the industry, we found getting feedback, let alone, finding answers to simple questions like the one I posed impossible. I can only speculate as to the reasons because we never once got a response. Seriously. Now, we were obviously knocking on the wrong doors and calling the wrong numbers.
Contact-envy aside, I appreciate the candidness of the members here and find the dialogue refreshing.
Brian, I definitely wish we could commit the time to cranking out a game a week. If it were our own games, perhaps, although our games tend to be pretty ambitious. however, our clients just don't move that fast. I think we actually spend more time waiting for feedback and approvals than we do in development.
My question was perhaps worded poorly as well. I wasn't just curious about how to fill our portfolio, but rather how studios are funding their development and the percentage of IP vs. "work-for-hire" games in their portfolios. I am building a case for our company executive to invest heavily in R&D (game engine development as Brian points out and new technologies like mobile game development) and our own commercial IP games and I find it's a "cart-before-the-horse" kind of issue in a publicly-traded company.
Rather than a "build it and they will come" mentality, it is more a "find me a funded project and we'll let you build it" sort of deal. Your comments are all very interesting. thanks
Its late here so I hope I am not blithering. thanks again for the insight folks and I look forward to future conversations here and at one of the many new (and established) conferences. cheers
Brent Lowrie
Games and Animation
RARE METHOD
500, 1812 4th Street S.W. Calgary AB T2S 1W1
P. 403.543.4500 x341 F. 403.532.3004
www.raremethod.com
games.raremethod.com
Strategic Interactive Marketing
Provoke Thought Direct Action Get Results
_____
From: casual_games-bounces at igda.org on behalf of Brian Robbins
Sent: Tue 8/30/2005 8:32 PM
To: IGDA Casual Games SIG Mailing List
Subject: RE: [casual_games] Business Models
I agree with Wade on this, the purpose of this group, and the IGDA in general is to encourage open communication between developers. While on some level we're all competitors I hardly see enough head to head competition to warrant any kind of over the top secrecy.
Having myself worked both for a tiny casual game developer, and now growing the game team at a leading advergame developer, the best way I've seen to develop a library of games is to dedicate yourself to doing it. At CleverMedia we had a long standing production cycle of a new game EVERY week. We missed a week occasionally for holidays, etc. but for several years we released a new game every Thursday. The result is that CleverMedia now has one of, if not the, largest 1st party catalogs of games anywhere.
Here at Fuel our strategy is to develop our own games as customizable and open as we possibly can. In essence we are not building a game, rather we are building a game engine and a game utilizing that engine at the same time. Once we have a solid engine, and a wicked game developed using it, we can leverage both to become profitable. Perhaps one of the best examples of this is Laser Envy (http://www.fuelarcade.com/laserenvy/) and another game utilizing the same underlying engine we built for MegaBloks (http://www.megabloks.com/en/kids/dragons/game/fire_and_ice.php).
This can be a bit risky in that it takes a good deal more effort to build a game engine than it does to build just a game. However when it works right it can be very successful and rewarding for the team and the company.
--
Brian Robbins
Director, Online Gaming
http://www.fuelgames.com/blog/
Chair, IGDA Online Games SIG & IGDA Casual Games SIG
http://www.igda.org/online/ http://www.igda.org/casual/
-----Original Message-----
From: casual_games-bounces at igda.org
[mailto:casual_games-bounces at igda.org]On
Behalf Of Brent Lowrie
Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2005 10:44 AM
To: IGDA Casual Games SIG Mailing List
Subject: [casual_games] Business Models
I know this is a topic that many are interested in but few are really willing to talk about. We are all competitors after all.
We are a relatively small game development group fighting to establish some independence within an interactive marketing firm. As the group leader, I have been putting together a business plan of sorts and would like to field some questions for those established developers with many games in their portfolio. How did you go about producing so many games? That is, was it self-funded internal development in the hopes of licensing them? Were they games developed for clients that you retained rights too and now offer a non-branded version for licensing? A combination?
_______________________________________________
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Message: 2
Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 07:51:55 -0600
From: "Brent Lowrie" <brent.lowrie at raremethod.com>
Subject: RE: [casual_games] Business Models
To: "IGDA Casual Games SIG Mailing List" <casual_games at igda.org>
Message-ID:
<863ACBAE9764BF44921E6EE6578741D6077DBD at gearbox.raremethod>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Thanks John!
This is the sort of info I am looking for. Excellent. Thanks!
I actually edited the case studies on the latest white paper. It's been a while since I read the first draft and haven't had a chance to read the completed version. Pardon me if my question is answered there. What does a publishing deal typically look like? Do they vary wildly or are they all pretty standard across the board and from publisher to publisher? Thanks in advance...
Brent Lowrie
Games & Animation
RARE METHOD
500, 1812 4th Street S.W. Calgary AB T2S 1W1 P. 403.543.4500 x341 F. 403.532.3004 www.raremethod.com games.raremethod.com
Strategic Interactive Marketing
Provoke Thought Direct Action Get Results
________________________________
From: casual_games-bounces at igda.org
[mailto:casual_games-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of John Welch
Sent: August 31, 2005 1:25 AM
To: IGDA Casual Games SIG Mailing List
Subject: RE: [casual_games] Business Models
Brent,
There's a middle road - work with a publisher who will fund a serious project (take all of the risk) and give you far more exposure (it's not just about development) as well as ongoing participation (upside far better than work-for-hire). Ideas are cheap - execution counts. If you can do it well once, you can do it better the next time. So, get a publisher deal and use it to learn the ropes, build your business case, and get some name recognition in the casual space. If you like what you see, think about self-funding your next project. Talking from experience, starting from scratch isn't easy - but once you have some momentum it's a heck of a lot of fun.
There aren't many publishers in the casual space, but there are a few of us, and terms are currently a lot better than "traditional"
developer-publisher contracts. Each publisher has its personality and benefits, but I don't think you could go wrong with any of them. There's a list of publishers addressing this space in the SIG's 2005 white
paper: www.igda.org/casual.
-John W.
________________________
John Welch, President & CEO
PLAY: www.PlayFirst.com <http://www.playfirst.com/> ________________________
________________________________
From: casual_games-bounces at igda.org
[mailto:casual_games-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Brent Lowrie
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 12:09 AM
To: IGDA Casual Games SIG Mailing List; IGDA Casual Games SIG Mailing List
Subject: RE: [casual_games] Business Models
See, this is why I joined the IGDA! thanks everyone for the replies.
It was before I discovered the IGDA and its Casual Games SIG that researching the industry was difficult. without friends and connections in the industry, we found getting feedback, let alone, finding answers to simple questions like the one I posed impossible. I can only speculate as to the reasons because we never once got a response.
Seriously. Now, we were obviously knocking on the wrong doors and calling the wrong numbers. Contact-envy aside, I appreciate the candidness of the members here and find the dialogue refreshing.
Brian, I definitely wish we could commit the time to cranking out a game a week. If it were our own games, perhaps, although our games tend to be pretty ambitious. however, our clients just don't move that fast. I think we actually spend more time waiting for feedback and approvals than we do in development.
My question was perhaps worded poorly as well. I wasn't just curious about how to fill our portfolio, but rather how studios are funding their development and the percentage of IP vs. "work-for-hire" games in their portfolios. I am building a case for our company executive to invest heavily in R&D (game engine development as Brian points out and new technologies like mobile game development) and our own commercial IP games and I find it's a "cart-before-the-horse" kind of issue in a publicly-traded company. Rather than a "build it and they will come"
mentality, it is more a "find me a funded project and we'll let you build it" sort of deal. Your comments are all very interesting. thanks
Its late here so I hope I am not blithering. thanks again for the insight folks and I look forward to future conversations here and at one of the many new (and established) conferences. cheers
Brent Lowrie
Games and Animation
RARE METHOD
500, 1812 4th Street S.W. Calgary AB T2S 1W1
P. 403.543.4500 x341 F. 403.532.3004
www.raremethod.com
games.raremethod.com
Strategic Interactive Marketing
Provoke Thought Direct Action Get Results
________________________________
From: casual_games-bounces at igda.org on behalf of Brian Robbins
Sent: Tue 8/30/2005 8:32 PM
To: IGDA Casual Games SIG Mailing List
Subject: RE: [casual_games] Business Models
I agree with Wade on this, the purpose of this group, and the IGDA in general is to encourage open communication between developers. While on some level we're all competitors I hardly see enough head to head competition to warrant any kind of over the top secrecy.
Having myself worked both for a tiny casual game developer, and now growing the game team at a leading advergame developer, the best way I've seen to develop a library of games is to dedicate yourself to doing it. At CleverMedia we had a long standing production cycle of a new game EVERY week. We missed a week occasionally for holidays, etc. but for several years we released a new game every Thursday. The result is that CleverMedia now has one of, if not the, largest 1st party catalogs of games anywhere.
Here at Fuel our strategy is to develop our own games as customizable and open as we possibly can. In essence we are not building a game, rather we are building a game engine and a game utilizing that engine at the same time. Once we have a solid engine, and a wicked game developed using it, we can leverage both to become profitable. Perhaps one of the best examples of this is Laser Envy (http://www.fuelarcade.com/laserenvy/) and another game utilizing the same underlying engine we built for MegaBloks (http://www.megabloks.com/en/kids/dragons/game/fire_and_ice.php).
This can be a bit risky in that it takes a good deal more effort to build a game engine than it does to build just a game. However when it works right it can be very successful and rewarding for the team and the company.
--
Brian Robbins
Director, Online Gaming
http://www.fuelgames.com/blog/
Chair, IGDA Online Games SIG & IGDA Casual Games SIG
http://www.igda.org/online/ http://www.igda.org/casual/
-----Original Message-----
From: casual_games-bounces at igda.org
[mailto:casual_games-bounces at igda.org]On
Behalf Of Brent Lowrie
Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2005 10:44 AM
To: IGDA Casual Games SIG Mailing List
Subject: [casual_games] Business Models
I know this is a topic that many are interested in but few are really willing to talk about. We are all competitors after all.
We are a relatively small game development group fighting to establish some independence within an interactive marketing firm. As the group leader, I have been putting together a business plan of sorts and would like to field some questions for those established developers with many games in their portfolio. How did you go about producing so many games? That is, was it self-funded internal development in the hopes of licensing them? Were they games developed for clients that you retained rights too and now offer a non-branded version for licensing? A combination?
_______________________________________________
Casual_Games mailing list
Casual_Games at igda.org
http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/casual_games
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