[casual_games] Community Functionality

George Donovan george at infiknowledge.com
Tue Jan 31 18:07:30 EST 2006 

As this discussion grows I want to let everyone think about what the next
step can be, the portals/publishers have not only the channel, customers and
lion share of the revenue, they have the power to have it all. Now the
benefit we have is that if your game is that good then people will buy it,
BUT if your game is good the publishers also have the power to have another
"similar" version done within 4-6 weeks and publish it themselves, own the
IP and all the revenue.

The publishers know enough developers and have a pretty strong sense of how
much they are making to go out and get products made as WFH(Work for hire)
rather than license it cut them a check 1/3 ore bigger than the developer is
used to getting and then take that new product and do what they want with
it.

It is my biggest concern as our industry grows, as that mentality can kill
the space. It will always be there but fresh new games that become super
hits will soon die. 
At retail you can always find a way to get your product to distribution
since there are so many and they all still distribute thru Wal-Mart, or the
other major chains, online we have a handful(I mean 4-5) that would make up
80% of revenue and if 2-5 decide to take that position then the smaller
developers are screwed.

I hope that the portals never take that position but when they have the
billion dollar marketing channel to the mass market then there is little the
small developer can do.

This industry will grow from unique products that get the right promotion or
placement and support from the bigger channels, the day that new management
that are more bottom line driven take the above approve the industry may
U-turn into what the PC retail space is feeling today.

-----Original Message-----
From: casual_games-bounces at igda.org [mailto:casual_games-bounces at igda.org]
On Behalf Of Sean Ryan
Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2006 6:55 PM
To: IGDA Casual Games SIG Mailing List
Subject: RE: [casual_games] Community Functionality

It's always a recurring casual game discussion about the roles of
developers, publishers and portals/distributors, and it generally comes back
to revenue share, and how portals get too much of the pie.  Portals will get
60% revenue splits until developers decide they don't need portals very much
and refuse to sign those deals since they can make more money elsewhere -
but if anything, I'd say the trend is going the other way since there are
now so many developers, many of whom are making very similar games, that a
large portal can pick and choose among many developers.

So portals get the cut they do because they can - it's just a matter of
leverage, not a discussion of who is doing what role, or a comparison of
what happens in other entertainment sectors.

Sean




Sean Ryan
Donnerwood Media
-----Original Message-----
From: casual_games-bounces at igda.org
[mailto:casual_games-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Ron
Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2006 1:58 PM
To: IGDA Casual Games SIG Mailing List
Subject: Re: [casual_games] Community Functionality

You know, this is a very interesting topic (ok, a little off-topic), and

something that has confused me for a while.

In the mainstream game business, a publisher provides 3 basic functions:

1) Financing of the game.
2) Marketing/PR support and funding.
3) Production guidance.

In my experience, the portals (who are often referred to as Publishers)
rarely provide any of these.  They are, in my mind, nothing more than
distributors and/or retailers, but they take a 60% or more cut.  A
distributor should be taking a 20% or less cut.  What it basically comes

down to is the developer is taking all the financial risk, and getting very
little of the reward. It's strange that it evolved this way, and I don't
have enough history to know why.

But my question is:  How long is this going to last?

It would be one thing if the publishers/portals were paying for development
or real marketing, then I would expect them to be getting the cut they do.
With Risk comes Reward.

Am I missing something here?  I've asked this question to a couple of
developers and they are respond "yeah, sucks, what are you going to do, they
have all the traffic".

Is that really it?  Do games with strong community elements start to break
this down, or do they only make it worse because the barrier to entry for a
small developer is now even higher.

Ron






Juan Gril wrote:
> Distribution is selling goods to the consumer, and publishing is 
> creating the goods for the consumer. Multiplayer games require that
you 
> create the goods, and to create a relationship with the consumer. In
the 
> videogame world so far this has not been a huge problem because the 
> distributor's business seems to not be affected by the publisher's 
> after-sale relationship with the consumer.
> 
>  
> 
> But in the online world, the line becomes a little blurry, isn't it?
So 
> since the consumer purchases a digital good, it doesn't really make a 
> difference for the consumer to buy it at the distributor's web site or

> at the publisher's web site, isn't it? It's just a URL after all.
> 
>  
> 
> So is this the survival of the fittest? Is distribution/publishing 
> becoming one entity, and at the same time, polarizing in less than a 
> handful of companies? If so, aren't most of us in this list in serious

> trouble? Will Google save the day? J
> 
>  
> 
> Cheers,
> 
>  
> 
> Juan
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> *From:* casual_games-bounces at igda.org 
> [mailto:casual_games-bounces at igda.org] *On Behalf Of *Joe Pantuso
> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 31, 2006 11:52 AM
> *To:* IGDA Casual Games SIG Mailing List
> *Subject:* Re: [casual_games] Community Functionality
> 
>  
> 
> Exactly.  And responding to Juan; it's not the big guys that are
scared 
> stiff, I should have been more clear.  It's the smaller portals that 
> just aggregate games and don't have deep pockets.
> 
>  
> 
> The big guys will screw it up because they want to keep each others 
> players out of the other guys hands.
> 
>  
> 
> We'll no doubt have other limitations of our own, but at least we're 
> going to be trying to bring games to all the IMs.
> 
>  
> 
> On 1/31/06, *Ron* <lists at rzweb.com <mailto:lists at rzweb.com>> wrote:
> 
>>  It's interesting. Makes you wonder why Pogo, Yahoo! and MSN invested
in
>>  multiplayer infrastructures since the late 90s. I have a hunch
that's
>>  it's a little bit more complex than that.
> 
> I don't think that it's so much that they are scared of community,
it's
> that they are scared of loosing control.  Much like the IM stuff, 
> everyone's happy if you can only use their system, but once you can
hop
> around, it becomes a problem for them.  Community in Casual Games is 
> probably the same.  The portals are in in favor of it, as long as
you're
> locked in.   The last thing Yahoo wants is you playing with MSN
players.
> 
> But I agree that community is going to be huge as soon as it moves 
> beyond just chat and doesn't turn into PvP.
> 
> Ron
> 
> 
> 
> Juan Gril wrote:
>>  Joe was saying:
>>
>>  "My own opinion on all this is that community driven casual games
are
>>  the next big things, and the portals only figured this out the last
12
>>  months and they are all scared stiff."
>>
>>
>>
>>  It's interesting. Makes you wonder why Pogo, Yahoo! and MSN invested
in
>>  multiplayer infrastructures since the late 90s. I have a hunch
that's
>>  it's a little bit more complex than that.
>>
>>
>>
>>  Cheers,
>>
>>
>>
>>  Juan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>  *From:* casual_games-bounces at igda.org
> <mailto:casual_games-bounces at igda.org>
>>  [mailto:casual_games-bounces at igda.org
> <mailto:casual_games-bounces at igda.org>] *On Behalf Of *Joe Pantuso
>>  *Sent:* Tuesday, January 31, 2006 10:58 AM
>>  *To:* IGDA Casual Games SIG Mailing List
>>  *Subject:* Re: [casual_games] Community Functionality
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  My own opinion on all this is that community driven casual games are
the
>>  next big things, and the portals only figured this out the last 12  
>> months and they are all scared stiff.  My thinking is admittedly
biased
>>  as we've been working on infrastructure specifically for this for
nearly
>>  3 years.
>>
>>
>>
>>  Our approach is this; there is room for community features in all
games
>>  and they will be de riguer very soon.  There will also be an
increasing
>>  number of multi-player 'casual' games.
>>
>>
>>
>>  One of the models I'm hoping makes sense to people with existing  
>> single-player games is to look at doing multi-player or MSOG
versions
>>  (http://www.traygames.com/Developer/FAQs.aspx?faq=dev_terminology
> <http://www.traygames.com/Developer/FAQs.aspx?faq=dev_terminology>
>>  <http://www.traygames.com/Developer/FAQs.aspx?faq=dev_terminology>)
of
>>  their games that are hosted through us, but go ahead and do the
single
>>  player version for all the portals.  Since we want *only* games that
are
>>  MSOG or multi-player we're perfectly happy for your single-player  
>> version to be on every portal under the sun.
>>
>>
>>
>>  I assume there will be a trend in these things similar to what we're  
>> seeing happen in the IM products.  They've been rabidly insular the  
>> first decade, and only the past year are we starting to see signs
that
>>  things will open up.  Within 18 months you'll be able to
inter-operate
>>  between all the major IM products.  This is a big boon to us as it
will
>>  make our strategy of being the service you install to add games to
your
>>  IM (regardless of which one you have) much simpler to make happen.
>>
>>
>>
>>  I expect that eventually it will be hard to compete without at least  
>> some community features in a game.
>>
>>
>>
>>  -J
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
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>  
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> 
>
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> 
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