[casual_games] RE: Casual_Games Digest, Vol 13, Issue 3

Wed Jun 7 13:02:14 EDT 2006

For games to appeal to the female subset on a consistent and successful
basis, we need to be able to effectively convey "emotion" in a game.
That doesn't mean sappy love stories and half naked guys running around
the screen.  If you think about it, you can put emotion into a puzzle
game.  That is the connection that the female audience is really looking
for, but you can probably go beyond the female audience.  If we can
achieve "emotional" gameplay on a consistent basis (which requires deep
forethought in story, and what the actual mechanics of a game actual
MEAN to the story you are trying to tell") then we will not only open
the doors to the female game players, but to all people everywhere that
do not consider themselves "gamers".  That is what we have been missing
all along.

There have been some attempts at this, and they have failed monetarily.
We look at console games like "Beyond Good and Evil", "Psychonauts" and
"Indigo Prophecy".  These games were WAY ahead of their time.  These
games oozed emotion, but the problem is that the console videogame
demographic, as it stands today, doesn't care too much about those
things.  The people that would have played these games do not own a
console, and obviously did not run out to buy a machine just to play
these sorts of games.  As everyone is always saying, we must expand the
market.  Had those games come out in a time where we have more female
game players, and more moderate people playing games, it would have been
a different story for the performance of those games.  It is my belief
that the casual games industry is in a position to expand that market,
and we must do everything we can to ensure the viability of our industry
for the foreseeable future.  This includes posing these very questions
constantly until we get this formula right.  Just my 2 cents.

-----Original Message-----
From: casual_games-bounces at igda.org
[mailto:casual_games-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of
casual_games-request at igda.org
Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 9:02 AM
To: casual_games at igda.org
Subject: Casual_Games Digest, Vol 13, Issue 3

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Today's Topics:

   1. Games for women made by women? (Martina Putzki)
   2. Re: Games for women made by women? (Duncan Gough)
   3. RE: Games for women made by women? (Jessica Tams (Personal))
   4. RE: Games for women made by women? (Dustin Clingman)
   5. Re: Games for women made by women? (Ron)
   6. Re: Games for women made by women? (Duncan Gough)
   7. Re: Games for women made by women? (Joe Pantuso)
   8. Re: Games for women made by women? (Adam Martin)
   9. RE: Games for women made by women? (Jade Tidy)
  10. Re: Games for women made by women? (Duncan Gough)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 19:01:38 +0200
From: "Martina Putzki" <martina.putzki at phenomedia.com>
Subject: [casual_games] Games for women made by women?
To: <casual_games at igda.org>
Message-ID:
	<EKEELPAPKCIEKCJDCGOMEENCDEAA.martina.putzki at phenomedia.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Hello List!

One question (probably asked before - if so, my apologies) from a female
member of the games industry:

Having been part of this industry for 11 years now I have always been
amazed
by the small number of women involved in the game development process.

During my past 5 years in the casual games niche I have
a)       learned (and happily so) about the large and growing number of
women playing casual games
b)       witnessed male colleagues (all ex-full-price-game-makers)
desperately trying to "tailor" games especially for the female target
group.
Well, regarding the results of their numerous efforts I'll gladly admit
to
sometimes have taken active and fervent part in preventing there be a
result
(= game) in the first place. The insights on what some men seem to
believe
women want were actually scary and I hope in no way related to their
real
lives... ;-)

Now I'm working in marketing, not game design. I certainly do not
pretend to
be able to do a better job thinking of cool games. Plus, I have come to
believe that it truly is infinitely harder to make a "small" game than a
"big" one, and I have a deep respect for the people envisioning them.

But I am definitely wondering, with so many very successful casual games
out
on the portals, could it be there are more women involved in the game
design
and production part of the casual games sector than in full-price-games?
You
probably know that theory: Should women be making the games meant to be
played by women?

Or has it just been the trial/error and selection and/or luck factors in
combination with surveys leading to the top-sellers in our field?

How many of you guys have female game designers on their payrolls?

Just curious... ;-)

All the best
Martina
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Message: 2
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 09:58:12 +0100
From: "Duncan Gough" <duncan at 3rdsense.com>
Subject: Re: [casual_games] Games for women made by women?
To: "IGDA Casual Games SIG Mailing List" <casual_games at igda.org>
Message-ID:
	<71f9ef640606070158i6c462eb5y34a84780a200017c at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed

On 6/6/06, Martina Putzki <martina.putzki at phenomedia.com> wrote:
>
> Hello List!

Hello!

<snip>

> b)       witnessed male colleagues (all ex-full-price-game-makers)
> desperately trying to "tailor" games especially for the female target
group.
> Well, regarding the results of their numerous efforts I'll gladly
admit to
> sometimes have taken active and fervent part in preventing there be a
result
> (= game) in the first place. The insights on what some men seem to
believe
> women want were actually scary and I hope in no way related to their
real
> lives... ;-)

Give us a clue then, what games should men be building for women?

------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 02:58:29 -0700
From: "Jessica Tams $Personal$" <jessica at ckyco.net>
Subject: RE: [casual_games] Games for women made by women?
To: "'IGDA Casual Games SIG Mailing List'" <casual_games at igda.org>
Message-ID: <00c801c68a18$ed8bfb20$6500a8c0 at GAMEUNIVERSE.COM>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"

I think you should all just add more pink. I hear girls like pink.

Jessica

-----Original Message-----
From: casual_games-bounces at igda.org
[mailto:casual_games-bounces at igda.org]
On Behalf Of Duncan Gough
Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 1:58 AM
To: IGDA Casual Games SIG Mailing List
Subject: Re: [casual_games] Games for women made by women?

On 6/6/06, Martina Putzki <martina.putzki at phenomedia.com> wrote:
>
> Hello List!

Hello!

<snip>

> b)       witnessed male colleagues (all ex-full-price-game-makers)
> desperately trying to "tailor" games especially for the female target
group.
> Well, regarding the results of their numerous efforts I'll gladly
admit to
> sometimes have taken active and fervent part in preventing there be a
result
> (= game) in the first place. The insights on what some men seem to
believe
> women want were actually scary and I hope in no way related to their
real
> lives. ;-)

Give us a clue then, what games should men be building for women?
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------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 08:00:46 -0400
From: "Dustin Clingman" <dustin at zeitgeistgames.com>
Subject: RE: [casual_games] Games for women made by women?
To: "'IGDA Casual Games SIG Mailing List'" <casual_games at igda.org>
Message-ID: <00e201c68a2a$02bf9f90$01fe0a0a at fullsail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"

Ha! Or increase the cute factor by 5.

Best Regards,

Dustin

---

Dustin Clingman

President, Zeitgeist Games, Inc. 

Phone: 407.376.3695

www.zeitgeistgames.com

-----Original Message-----
From: casual_games-bounces at igda.org
[mailto:casual_games-bounces at igda.org]
On Behalf Of Jessica Tams (Personal)
Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 5:58 AM
To: 'IGDA Casual Games SIG Mailing List'
Subject: RE: [casual_games] Games for women made by women?

I think you should all just add more pink. I hear girls like pink.

Jessica

-----Original Message-----
From: casual_games-bounces at igda.org
[mailto:casual_games-bounces at igda.org]
On Behalf Of Duncan Gough
Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 1:58 AM
To: IGDA Casual Games SIG Mailing List
Subject: Re: [casual_games] Games for women made by women?

On 6/6/06, Martina Putzki <martina.putzki at phenomedia.com> wrote:
>
> Hello List!

Hello!

<snip>

> b)       witnessed male colleagues (all ex-full-price-game-makers)
> desperately trying to "tailor" games especially for the female target
group.
> Well, regarding the results of their numerous efforts I'll gladly
admit to
> sometimes have taken active and fervent part in preventing there be a
result
> (= game) in the first place. The insights on what some men seem to
believe
> women want were actually scary and I hope in no way related to their
real
> lives. ;-)

Give us a clue then, what games should men be building for women?
_______________________________________________
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------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 06:59:11 -0700
From: Ron <lists at rzweb.com>
Subject: Re: [casual_games] Games for women made by women?
To: IGDA Casual Games SIG Mailing List <casual_games at igda.org>
Message-ID: <4486DBAF.4090702 at rzweb.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed

 > Give us a clue then, what games should men be building for women?

Or, can you point to a casual game that is currently out there that has 
all the right elements?

I've been dealing with this question since I started making games in 
1985.  It's always been a bunch of men (or boys!) trying to make games 
that appeal to women.  But, I've known a lot of women game designers and

programmers that don't do much better.  I've sat in design meetings 
where the female game designer runs through the same list of stereotypes

(shopping!) that the guys do.  Is there such a thing as a game for 
women?  A movie?  A TV Show?  A book?

While there are Movies, Books and TV Shows that have a high "female 
demographic", I suspect that the truly successful ones have a much 
broader appeal.

Ron

------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 15:36:03 +0100
From: "Duncan Gough" <duncan at 3rdsense.com>
Subject: Re: [casual_games] Games for women made by women?
To: "IGDA Casual Games SIG Mailing List" <casual_games at igda.org>
Message-ID:
	<71f9ef640606070736l1010175at888d7d4f43a76b76 at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Great point.

If I was to suggest that the Nintendo DS game Brain Age was a great
example of a casual game for women, I'd expect a slap in the face in
return.

Pink n' fluffy might be all it takes, but I'd be interested in finding
out which games appealed to women without being patronising.

On 6/7/06, Ron <lists at rzweb.com> wrote:
>  > Give us a clue then, what games should men be building for women?
>
> Or, can you point to a casual game that is currently out there that
has
> all the right elements?
>
> I've been dealing with this question since I started making games in
> 1985.  It's always been a bunch of men (or boys!) trying to make games
> that appeal to women.  But, I've known a lot of women game designers
and
> programmers that don't do much better.  I've sat in design meetings
> where the female game designer runs through the same list of
stereotypes
> (shopping!) that the guys do.  Is there such a thing as a game for
> women?  A movie?  A TV Show?  A book?
>
> While there are Movies, Books and TV Shows that have a high "female
> demographic", I suspect that the truly successful ones have a much
> broader appeal.
>
>
> Ron
>
> _______________________________________________
> Casual_Games mailing list
> Casual_Games at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/casual_games
>

-- 
Duncan Gough                    3RD sense UK Ltd
Lead Developer                  Level 1, Fitzroy House
m +44 (0) 7740 302 248    11 Chenies Street
p  +44 (0) 20 7250 4744    London WC1E 7EY
f   +44 (0) 20 7250 4746    www.3rdsense.com

------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 10:41:26 -0400
From: "Joe Pantuso" <jpantuso at traygames.com>
Subject: Re: [casual_games] Games for women made by women?
To: "IGDA Casual Games SIG Mailing List" <casual_games at igda.org>
Message-ID:
	<dad449010606070741o34746c5cvd0108b9cf8e4b9c0 at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

>While there are Movies, Books and TV Shows that have a high "female
>demographic", I suspect that the truly successful ones have a much
>broader appeal.

This is dead-on.  It seems to me that making a "game that will appeal to
women" is an impossible task.  It implies a sort of prejudicial thinking
that is unrealistic and possibly a fools errand too.

In response to the original question, we have two game designers who are
women.  I'm not entirely sure it makes a difference at the end of the
day,
as women who enter the field of software development in general seem a
bit
atypical, which is broadly the case in male dominated fields.  Clearly
things are improving though, just looking at the crowd at CGDC now vs.
10
years ago and it is obvious.
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Message: 8
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 15:41:25 +0100
From: Adam Martin <adam at mindcandydesign.com>
Subject: Re: [casual_games] Games for women made by women?
To: IGDA Casual Games SIG Mailing List <casual_games at igda.org>
Message-ID: <4486E595.60705 at mindcandydesign.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed

Duncan Gough wrote:

> Great point.
> 
> If I was to suggest that the Nintendo DS game Brain Age was a great
> example of a casual game for women, I'd expect a slap in the face in
> return.

Damn. You beat me to it :P.

But mainly because it seems to appeal to non-gamers, which I suspect 
mostly masks any sex bias.

-- 
Adam Martin
CTO, Mind Candy Ltd

tel: 0207 501 1904 - fax: 0207 501 1919
www.perplexcity.com - www.mindcandydesign.com

------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 16:04:11 +0100
From: "Jade Tidy" <jade at futurlab.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [casual_games] Games for women made by women?
To: "'IGDA Casual Games SIG Mailing List'" <casual_games at igda.org>
Message-ID: <006a01c68a43$a5371410$0400a8c0 at jade>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"

There was a really good article in PC gamer last year about this subject
which I could really relate to as a female gamer (I can dig out the
issue
no. if anyone's interested).

In my personal experience there is a great difference to what games I
prefer
to what games my boyfriend would pick as his favourites. Then again, we
have
quite a few crossovers.

Men and women's brains do function differently, which I think has an
effect
on which games successfully attract women players (the article touches
on
this).

I don't generally spend too much of my personal time playing casual
games,
although I'm starting to get hooked on them more as I've got my 360 and
enjoy the arcade games (e.g. Hexic). My fav games over the past couple
of
years have been Fable, Jade Empire, WOW, Guitar Hero, Burnout (various),
We
Love Katamari, Splinter Cell...

As you can tell I'm not a great fan of shoot 'em up games but I've
played
the Lost Planet demo and I really want to get it!

HTH

Jade

------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 16:22:19 +0100
From: "Duncan Gough" <duncan at 3rdsense.com>
Subject: Re: [casual_games] Games for women made by women?
To: "IGDA Casual Games SIG Mailing List" <casual_games at igda.org>
Message-ID:
	<71f9ef640606070822i53c0c10du585c1ed69156376f at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

On 6/7/06, Joe Pantuso <jpantuso at traygames.com> wrote:
>
> >While there are Movies, Books and TV Shows that have a high "female
> >demographic", I suspect that the truly successful ones have a much
> >broader appeal.
>
>
> This is dead-on.  It seems to me that making a "game that will appeal
to
> women" is an impossible task.  It implies a sort of prejudicial
thinking
> that is unrealistic and possibly a fools errand too.

It's about mainstream appeal then - appealing to a much bigger
audience so that proportionally more women are involved in playing.
Which, in my head, ties in to what was being suggested on Wonderland a
whlie ago:

http://crystaltips.typepad.com/wonderland/2005/06/the_thing_about.html

------------------------------

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