[casual_games] Re: Games for women made by women?
Catherine Herdlick
catherine at gmlb.com
Wed Jun 7 13:29:28 EDT 2006
Hi All!
I've been watching this list from the sidelines since the beginning.
I'm a woman! I'm a project manager for Gamelab! We've been known to make
casual games! Women are a supposedly a big chunk of casual game players!
I just managed a game about shopping - we chose that theme NOT because
"women love to shop," but rather because shopping (and selling) as an
activity fit with our gameplay mechanics and our collective creative drives
(we also wanted a narrative departure from our previous titles). Said
shopping game is actually sort of ironically critical about consumerism.
Please, don't assume the decision to make a game about shopping was made
because of the ladies. Yeah women shop. So do men. And kids. And old
people. And rich people. (just play our game and you'll see!). The game
is more like working retail than going shopping with my sister.
Gamelab has tons of women working here in all sorts of capacities. "What
would women like?" does occasionally come up in our meetings, but we remind
each other that our priority is making a good game - players will want to
play a good game no matter who they are!
The cool thing about so-called "casual games" is that they appeal to
PLAYERS. We're designing games for People, not just for our friends. As
such, what we do can becomes a sort of higher form of design.
Sadly, most of the games out there - in *any* niche - are clones. Clones
have a limited amount of fun-appeal no matter who they appeal to
(intentionally or otherwise). The key to a good game is innovation and
focus on gamePLAY - content, mechanics, etc should follow based on the
audience as PLAYERS (vs. friends or artificial demographics). Oh, and also
your team's interests as creative people. You've got to make sure the
developers are psyched on the game or there won't be any heart and soul in
the end product - consumers everywhere respond lukewarmly to that.
I guess all of this resonates with the earlier post about making a
broad-appeal pieces of media. That said, clearly woman-targeted things like
Sex and the City are total guilty pleasures that I would never admit to
enjoying (oops!). But I also wouldn't invest much time/money into them
because they offer such a shallow indulgence (like a watery cup of hot
chocolate from the bodega vs. a creamy mocha from a café - why waste the
calories).
And HEY!, I'm not all that atypical of a woman even though I'm in the
software industry. And neither are my female colleagues.
That's my long answer - yes, women do make games for women. But I like to
consider myself a Project Manager that makes games for discerning, critical
Players.
Warm Regards,
Catherine
Catherine Herdlick * Game Producer * Gamelab
368 Broadway #210 * New York, NY 10013
tel: 646.827.6644 * cell: 917.821.3078
-----Original Message-----
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On Behalf Of casual_games-request at igda.org
Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 12:02 PM
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Today's Topics:
1. Games for women made by women? (Martina Putzki)
2. Re: Games for women made by women? (Duncan Gough)
3. RE: Games for women made by women? (Jessica Tams (Personal))
4. RE: Games for women made by women? (Dustin Clingman)
5. Re: Games for women made by women? (Ron)
6. Re: Games for women made by women? (Duncan Gough)
7. Re: Games for women made by women? (Joe Pantuso)
8. Re: Games for women made by women? (Adam Martin)
9. RE: Games for women made by women? (Jade Tidy)
10. Re: Games for women made by women? (Duncan Gough)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 19:01:38 +0200
From: "Martina Putzki" <martina.putzki at phenomedia.com>
Subject: [casual_games] Games for women made by women?
To: <casual_games at igda.org>
Message-ID:
<EKEELPAPKCIEKCJDCGOMEENCDEAA.martina.putzki at phenomedia.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hello List!
One question (probably asked before if so, my apologies) from a female
member of the games industry:
Having been part of this industry for 11 years now I have always been amazed
by the small number of women involved in the game development process.
During my past 5 years in the casual games niche I have
a) learned (and happily so) about the large and growing number of
women playing casual games
b) witnessed male colleagues (all ex-full-price-game-makers)
desperately trying to tailor games especially for the female target group.
Well, regarding the results of their numerous efforts Ill gladly admit to
sometimes have taken active and fervent part in preventing there be a result
(= game) in the first place. The insights on what some men seem to believe
women want were actually scary and I hope in no way related to their real
lives ;-)
Now Im working in marketing, not game design. I certainly do not pretend to
be able to do a better job thinking of cool games. Plus, I have come to
believe that it truly is infinitely harder to make a small game than a
big one, and I have a deep respect for the people envisioning them.
But I am definitely wondering, with so many very successful casual games out
on the portals, could it be there are more women involved in the game design
and production part of the casual games sector than in full-price-games? You
probably know that theory: Should women be making the games meant to be
played by women?
Or has it just been the trial/error and selection and/or luck factors in
combination with surveys leading to the top-sellers in our field?
How many of you guys have female game designers on their payrolls?
Just curious ;-)
All the best
Martina
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Message: 2
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 09:58:12 +0100
From: "Duncan Gough" <duncan at 3rdsense.com>
Subject: Re: [casual_games] Games for women made by women?
To: "IGDA Casual Games SIG Mailing List" <casual_games at igda.org>
Message-ID:
<71f9ef640606070158i6c462eb5y34a84780a200017c at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed
On 6/6/06, Martina Putzki <martina.putzki at phenomedia.com> wrote:
>
> Hello List!
Hello!
<snip>
> b) witnessed male colleagues (all ex-full-price-game-makers)
> desperately trying to "tailor" games especially for the female target
group.
> Well, regarding the results of their numerous efforts I'll gladly admit to
> sometimes have taken active and fervent part in preventing there be a
result
> (= game) in the first place. The insights on what some men seem to believe
> women want were actually scary and I hope in no way related to their real
> lives ;-)
Give us a clue then, what games should men be building for women?
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 02:58:29 -0700
From: "Jessica Tams \(Personal\)" <jessica at ckyco.net>
Subject: RE: [casual_games] Games for women made by women?
To: "'IGDA Casual Games SIG Mailing List'" <casual_games at igda.org>
Message-ID: <00c801c68a18$ed8bfb20$6500a8c0 at GAMEUNIVERSE.COM>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I think you should all just add more pink. I hear girls like pink.
Jessica
-----Original Message-----
From: casual_games-bounces at igda.org [mailto:casual_games-bounces at igda.org]
On Behalf Of Duncan Gough
Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 1:58 AM
To: IGDA Casual Games SIG Mailing List
Subject: Re: [casual_games] Games for women made by women?
On 6/6/06, Martina Putzki <martina.putzki at phenomedia.com> wrote:
>
> Hello List!
Hello!
<snip>
> b) witnessed male colleagues (all ex-full-price-game-makers)
> desperately trying to "tailor" games especially for the female target
group.
> Well, regarding the results of their numerous efforts I'll gladly admit to
> sometimes have taken active and fervent part in preventing there be a
result
> (= game) in the first place. The insights on what some men seem to believe
> women want were actually scary and I hope in no way related to their real
> lives. ;-)
Give us a clue then, what games should men be building for women?
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------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 08:00:46 -0400
From: "Dustin Clingman" <dustin at zeitgeistgames.com>
Subject: RE: [casual_games] Games for women made by women?
To: "'IGDA Casual Games SIG Mailing List'" <casual_games at igda.org>
Message-ID: <00e201c68a2a$02bf9f90$01fe0a0a at fullsail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Ha! Or increase the cute factor by 5.
Best Regards,
Dustin
---
Dustin Clingman
President, Zeitgeist Games, Inc.
Phone: 407.376.3695
www.zeitgeistgames.com
-----Original Message-----
From: casual_games-bounces at igda.org [mailto:casual_games-bounces at igda.org]
On Behalf Of Jessica Tams (Personal)
Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 5:58 AM
To: 'IGDA Casual Games SIG Mailing List'
Subject: RE: [casual_games] Games for women made by women?
I think you should all just add more pink. I hear girls like pink.
Jessica
-----Original Message-----
From: casual_games-bounces at igda.org [mailto:casual_games-bounces at igda.org]
On Behalf Of Duncan Gough
Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 1:58 AM
To: IGDA Casual Games SIG Mailing List
Subject: Re: [casual_games] Games for women made by women?
On 6/6/06, Martina Putzki <martina.putzki at phenomedia.com> wrote:
>
> Hello List!
Hello!
<snip>
> b) witnessed male colleagues (all ex-full-price-game-makers)
> desperately trying to "tailor" games especially for the female target
group.
> Well, regarding the results of their numerous efforts I'll gladly admit to
> sometimes have taken active and fervent part in preventing there be a
result
> (= game) in the first place. The insights on what some men seem to believe
> women want were actually scary and I hope in no way related to their real
> lives. ;-)
Give us a clue then, what games should men be building for women?
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------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 06:59:11 -0700
From: Ron <lists at rzweb.com>
Subject: Re: [casual_games] Games for women made by women?
To: IGDA Casual Games SIG Mailing List <casual_games at igda.org>
Message-ID: <4486DBAF.4090702 at rzweb.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
> Give us a clue then, what games should men be building for women?
Or, can you point to a casual game that is currently out there that has
all the right elements?
I've been dealing with this question since I started making games in
1985. It's always been a bunch of men (or boys!) trying to make games
that appeal to women. But, I've known a lot of women game designers and
programmers that don't do much better. I've sat in design meetings
where the female game designer runs through the same list of stereotypes
(shopping!) that the guys do. Is there such a thing as a game for
women? A movie? A TV Show? A book?
While there are Movies, Books and TV Shows that have a high "female
demographic", I suspect that the truly successful ones have a much
broader appeal.
Ron
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 15:36:03 +0100
From: "Duncan Gough" <duncan at 3rdsense.com>
Subject: Re: [casual_games] Games for women made by women?
To: "IGDA Casual Games SIG Mailing List" <casual_games at igda.org>
Message-ID:
<71f9ef640606070736l1010175at888d7d4f43a76b76 at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Great point.
If I was to suggest that the Nintendo DS game Brain Age was a great
example of a casual game for women, I'd expect a slap in the face in
return.
Pink n' fluffy might be all it takes, but I'd be interested in finding
out which games appealed to women without being patronising.
On 6/7/06, Ron <lists at rzweb.com> wrote:
> > Give us a clue then, what games should men be building for women?
>
> Or, can you point to a casual game that is currently out there that has
> all the right elements?
>
> I've been dealing with this question since I started making games in
> 1985. It's always been a bunch of men (or boys!) trying to make games
> that appeal to women. But, I've known a lot of women game designers and
> programmers that don't do much better. I've sat in design meetings
> where the female game designer runs through the same list of stereotypes
> (shopping!) that the guys do. Is there such a thing as a game for
> women? A movie? A TV Show? A book?
>
> While there are Movies, Books and TV Shows that have a high "female
> demographic", I suspect that the truly successful ones have a much
> broader appeal.
>
>
> Ron
>
> _______________________________________________
> Casual_Games mailing list
> Casual_Games at igda.org
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>
--
Duncan Gough 3RD sense UK Ltd
Lead Developer Level 1, Fitzroy House
m +44 (0) 7740 302 248 11 Chenies Street
p +44 (0) 20 7250 4744 London WC1E 7EY
f +44 (0) 20 7250 4746 www.3rdsense.com
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 10:41:26 -0400
From: "Joe Pantuso" <jpantuso at traygames.com>
Subject: Re: [casual_games] Games for women made by women?
To: "IGDA Casual Games SIG Mailing List" <casual_games at igda.org>
Message-ID:
<dad449010606070741o34746c5cvd0108b9cf8e4b9c0 at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>While there are Movies, Books and TV Shows that have a high "female
>demographic", I suspect that the truly successful ones have a much
>broader appeal.
This is dead-on. It seems to me that making a "game that will appeal to
women" is an impossible task. It implies a sort of prejudicial thinking
that is unrealistic and possibly a fools errand too.
In response to the original question, we have two game designers who are
women. I'm not entirely sure it makes a difference at the end of the day,
as women who enter the field of software development in general seem a bit
atypical, which is broadly the case in male dominated fields. Clearly
things are improving though, just looking at the crowd at CGDC now vs. 10
years ago and it is obvious.
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Message: 8
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 15:41:25 +0100
From: Adam Martin <adam at mindcandydesign.com>
Subject: Re: [casual_games] Games for women made by women?
To: IGDA Casual Games SIG Mailing List <casual_games at igda.org>
Message-ID: <4486E595.60705 at mindcandydesign.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Duncan Gough wrote:
> Great point.
>
> If I was to suggest that the Nintendo DS game Brain Age was a great
> example of a casual game for women, I'd expect a slap in the face in
> return.
Damn. You beat me to it :P.
But mainly because it seems to appeal to non-gamers, which I suspect
mostly masks any sex bias.
--
Adam Martin
CTO, Mind Candy Ltd
tel: 0207 501 1904 - fax: 0207 501 1919
www.perplexcity.com - www.mindcandydesign.com
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 16:04:11 +0100
From: "Jade Tidy" <jade at futurlab.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [casual_games] Games for women made by women?
To: "'IGDA Casual Games SIG Mailing List'" <casual_games at igda.org>
Message-ID: <006a01c68a43$a5371410$0400a8c0 at jade>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
There was a really good article in PC gamer last year about this subject
which I could really relate to as a female gamer (I can dig out the issue
no. if anyone's interested).
In my personal experience there is a great difference to what games I prefer
to what games my boyfriend would pick as his favourites. Then again, we have
quite a few crossovers.
Men and women's brains do function differently, which I think has an effect
on which games successfully attract women players (the article touches on
this).
I don't generally spend too much of my personal time playing casual games,
although I'm starting to get hooked on them more as I've got my 360 and
enjoy the arcade games (e.g. Hexic). My fav games over the past couple of
years have been Fable, Jade Empire, WOW, Guitar Hero, Burnout (various), We
Love Katamari, Splinter Cell...
As you can tell I'm not a great fan of shoot 'em up games but I've played
the Lost Planet demo and I really want to get it!
HTH
Jade
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 16:22:19 +0100
From: "Duncan Gough" <duncan at 3rdsense.com>
Subject: Re: [casual_games] Games for women made by women?
To: "IGDA Casual Games SIG Mailing List" <casual_games at igda.org>
Message-ID:
<71f9ef640606070822i53c0c10du585c1ed69156376f at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
On 6/7/06, Joe Pantuso <jpantuso at traygames.com> wrote:
>
> >While there are Movies, Books and TV Shows that have a high "female
> >demographic", I suspect that the truly successful ones have a much
> >broader appeal.
>
>
> This is dead-on. It seems to me that making a "game that will appeal to
> women" is an impossible task. It implies a sort of prejudicial thinking
> that is unrealistic and possibly a fools errand too.
It's about mainstream appeal then - appealing to a much bigger
audience so that proportionally more women are involved in playing.
Which, in my head, ties in to what was being suggested on Wonderland a
whlie ago:
http://crystaltips.typepad.com/wonderland/2005/06/the_thing_about.html
------------------------------
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