From InRNette at aol.com  Sat Oct  1 09:03:36 2005
From: InRNette at aol.com (InRNette at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2005 09:03:36 EDT
Subject: [games_access] Game Accessibility Survey updated
Message-ID: <1db.4513636b.306fe328@aol.com>

Hello!
 
Just a word from the peanut gallery about the input devices.
 
Those listed seem to be more output devices.
 
But if you add:
 
braille writer
video screen with onscreen keyboard with enlarged fonts
 
then you would have types of input devices.
 
Jeanette
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://pairlist7.pair.net/pipermail/games_access/attachments/20051001/3f98d39c/attachment.htm>

From richard at audiogames.net  Sat Oct  1 16:04:14 2005
From: richard at audiogames.net (AudioGames.net)
Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2005 22:04:14 +0200
Subject: [games_access] Game Accessibility Survey updated
References: <1db.4513636b.306fe328@aol.com>
Message-ID: <004f01c5c6c3$4c1823e0$29fc8418@Delletje>

Hi,

That's interesting. Do "braille-writers" linked to a computer exist? I only the braille-typewriter types, which only output paper with braille.

Greets,

Richard

ps: with "video screen with onscreen keyboard with enlarged fonts", you mean a touchscreen or not?. Simply showing a keyboard with enlarged fonts on a screen doesn't make it an input device....
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: InRNette at aol.com 
  To: games_access at igda.org 
  Sent: Saturday, October 01, 2005 3:03 PM
  Subject: Re: [games_access] Game Accessibility Survey updated


  Hello!

  Just a word from the peanut gallery about the input devices.

  Those listed seem to be more output devices.

  But if you add:

  braille writer
  video screen with onscreen keyboard with enlarged fonts

  then you would have types of input devices.

  Jeanette


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  games_access mailing list
  games_access at igda.org
  http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://pairlist7.pair.net/pipermail/games_access/attachments/20051001/6d449528/attachment.htm>

From rkimball at gmail.com  Sun Oct  2 19:29:42 2005
From: rkimball at gmail.com (Reid Kimball)
Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2005 19:29:42 -0400
Subject: [games_access] Game Accessibility Survey updated
In-Reply-To: <004f01c5c6c3$4c1823e0$29fc8418@Delletje>
References: <1db.4513636b.306fe328@aol.com>
	<004f01c5c6c3$4c1823e0$29fc8418@Delletje>
Message-ID: <a6673b8d0510021629o1ec55a54i6769e77addacf5b5@mail.gmail.com>

OK, I've updated the survey with more of the feedback.

- input changed to output

- added more gaming systems. but our list is getting too long,
otherwise why not add the Tiger handhelds and the MAC and the TI-84
calculator? I think we should look at each systems main control
devices and group those that resemble each other into one category.

- removed question from gaming habits that asked user to comment on
general accessibility issues they see. It was redundant when each
disability group asks the same question.

If people don't like how a certain question is worded or the answers
given then the author of that question should re-write it, if they
agree that is. I'm mainly talking about the "Please list accessible 3D
games that have the best interface for the following:" question.

I think that's it for now.

-Reid



On 10/1/05, AudioGames.net <richard at audiogames.net> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> That's interesting. Do "braille-writers" linked to a computer exist? I only
> the braille-typewriter types, which only output paper with braille.
>
> Greets,
>
> Richard
>
> ps: with "video screen with onscreen keyboard with enlarged fonts", you mean
> a touchscreen or not?. Simply showing a keyboard with enlarged fonts on a
> screen doesn't make it an input device....
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: InRNette at aol.com
> To: games_access at igda.org
> Sent: Saturday, October 01, 2005 3:03 PM
> Subject: Re: [games_access] Game Accessibility Survey updated
>
>
> Hello!
>
> Just a word from the peanut gallery about the input devices.
>
> Those listed seem to be more output devices.
>
> But if you add:
>
> braille writer
> video screen with onscreen keyboard with enlarged fonts
>
> then you would have types of input devices.
>
> Jeanette
>
>  ________________________________
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>
>


From hinn at uiuc.edu  Sun Oct  2 20:25:16 2005
From: hinn at uiuc.edu (hinn at uiuc.edu)
Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2005 19:25:16 -0500
Subject: [games_access] Game Accessibility Survey
 updated
Message-ID: <7e1ee154.452f0e4e.8faa000@expms2.cites.uiuc.edu>

Thanks, Reid, for the update and thanks for all your hard 
work on this! Thanks everyone for the input too!

Hope to see many of you tomorrow at the meeting!

Michelle

---- Original message ----
>Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2005 19:29:42 -0400
>From: Reid Kimball <rkimball at gmail.com>  
>Subject: Re: [games_access] Game Accessibility Survey 
updated  
>To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List 
<games_access at igda.org>
>
>OK, I've updated the survey with more of the feedback.
>
>- input changed to output
>
>- added more gaming systems. but our list is getting too 
long,
>otherwise why not add the Tiger handhelds and the MAC and 
the TI-84
>calculator? I think we should look at each systems main 
control
>devices and group those that resemble each other into one 
category.
>
>- removed question from gaming habits that asked user to 
comment on
>general accessibility issues they see. It was redundant 
when each
>disability group asks the same question.
>
>If people don't like how a certain question is worded or 
the answers
>given then the author of that question should re-write it, 
if they
>agree that is. I'm mainly talking about the "Please list 
accessible 3D
>games that have the best interface for the following:" 
question.
>
>I think that's it for now.
>
>-Reid
>
>
>
>On 10/1/05, AudioGames.net <richard at audiogames.net> wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> That's interesting. Do "braille-writers" linked to a 
computer exist? I only
>> the braille-typewriter types, which only output paper 
with braille.
>>
>> Greets,
>>
>> Richard
>>
>> ps: with "video screen with onscreen keyboard with 
enlarged fonts", you mean
>> a touchscreen or not?. Simply showing a keyboard with 
enlarged fonts on a
>> screen doesn't make it an input device....
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: InRNette at aol.com
>> To: games_access at igda.org
>> Sent: Saturday, October 01, 2005 3:03 PM
>> Subject: Re: [games_access] Game Accessibility Survey 
updated
>>
>>
>> Hello!
>>
>> Just a word from the peanut gallery about the input 
devices.
>>
>> Those listed seem to be more output devices.
>>
>> But if you add:
>>
>> braille writer
>> video screen with onscreen keyboard with enlarged fonts
>>
>> then you would have types of input devices.
>>
>> Jeanette
>>
>>  ________________________________
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> games_access mailing list
>> games_access at igda.org
>> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> games_access mailing list
>> games_access at igda.org
>> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>
>>
>>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access


From richard at audiogames.net  Mon Oct  3 01:20:28 2005
From: richard at audiogames.net (AudioGames.net)
Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 07:20:28 +0200
Subject: [games_access] Game Accessibility Survey updated
References: <1db.4513636b.306fe328@aol.com><004f01c5c6c3$4c1823e0$29fc8418@Delletje>
	<a6673b8d0510021629o1ec55a54i6769e77addacf5b5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002501c5c7da$2ad70620$29fc8418@Delletje>

Hi,

*quote*
- added more gaming systems. but our list is getting too long, otherwise why 
not add the Tiger handhelds and the MAC and the TI-84
calculator?
*quote end*

For thes same reason that the C64 is not on the list: those clearly are not 
modern game platforms. I do agree that a part of the list (Nintendo 8-bit, 
the Sega consoles, the (original) Gameboy) features several "aged" 
platforms. Maybe we should draw the line agewise?

*quote*
If people don't like how a certain question is worded or the answers
given then the author of that question should re-write it, if they
agree that is. I'm mainly talking about the "Please list accessible 3D
games that have the best interface for the following:" question.
*quote end*

Agreed, Reid. The only reason I did not yet submit my alternative questions 
was because I ran out of time :)

Greets,

Richard






On 10/1/05, AudioGames.net <richard at audiogames.net> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> That's interesting. Do "braille-writers" linked to a computer exist? I 
> only
> the braille-typewriter types, which only output paper with braille.
>
> Greets,
>
> Richard
>
> ps: with "video screen with onscreen keyboard with enlarged fonts", you 
> mean
> a touchscreen or not?. Simply showing a keyboard with enlarged fonts on a
> screen doesn't make it an input device....
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: InRNette at aol.com
> To: games_access at igda.org
> Sent: Saturday, October 01, 2005 3:03 PM
> Subject: Re: [games_access] Game Accessibility Survey updated
>
>
> Hello!
>
> Just a word from the peanut gallery about the input devices.
>
> Those listed seem to be more output devices.
>
> But if you add:
>
> braille writer
> video screen with onscreen keyboard with enlarged fonts
>
> then you would have types of input devices.
>
> Jeanette
>
>  ________________________________
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>
>
_______________________________________________
games_access mailing list
games_access at igda.org
http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access 



From hinn at uiuc.edu  Tue Oct  4 00:28:51 2005
From: hinn at uiuc.edu (hinn at uiuc.edu)
Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 23:28:51 -0500
Subject: [games_access] SIG Meetings Every Day this Week!
Message-ID: <2d7d0f3.45c92fb6.8d0f300@expms2.cites.uiuc.edu>

Hi everyone,

Because we're working on the SIG Tutorial final plan for GDC 
2006 (due this Friday, Oct 7), we'll be having online 
meetings on MSN at noon US Eastern Time every day this week. 
Please join us if you can -- we can use any and all input.

If you cannot make it to a meeting but want to help with the 
tutorial, be a part of the tutorial, etc, email me off list 
at hinn at uiuc.edu

Thanks!
Michelle


From agdev at thechases.com  Tue Oct  4 13:03:20 2005
From: agdev at thechases.com (Tim Chase)
Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2005 12:03:20 -0500
Subject: [games_access] SIG Meetings Every Day this Week!
In-Reply-To: <2d7d0f3.45c92fb6.8d0f300@expms2.cites.uiuc.edu>
References: <2d7d0f3.45c92fb6.8d0f300@expms2.cites.uiuc.edu>
Message-ID: <4342B5D8.5060509@thechases.com>

Below is the IM transcript from today's meeting.  Due to 
Michelle's network problems, she said she wanted a transcript, 
and Thomas expressed an interest too.  Hopefully others will find 
it interesting (or at least not too boring)

-tim





michelle says:
   ok i'm having some serious network probs

thomaswestin = Skype ID says:
   OK

michelle says:
   so if i drop out keep talking and then someone save the
   conversation to email me with it

gumnos (Tim Chase) says:
   ok

michelle says:
   so to my surprise last night

michelle says:
   after re-reading the requirements and after jason from
   igda sent a clarification

michelle says:
   i realized that the longest part of our proposal is our
   abstract
***You are having temporary network problems and are no
longer in this conversation.***

michelle says:
   which needs to be 2000 CHARACTERS

michelle says:
   http://www.igda.org/wiki/index.php/GDC_2006_Tutorial#Introduction

michelle says:
   so for example

michelle says:
   look at my bio
***michelle has left the conversation.***
***Kevin has left the conversation.***

michelle says:
   http://www.igda.org/wiki/index.php/GDC_2006_Tutorial#Introduction

michelle says:
   so for example

michelle says:
   look at my bio

michelle says:
   that's 1000 characters

michelle says:
   so...the "meat" of our proposal needs to be twice that
   size

michelle says:
   so that's not a lot

michelle says:
   WHEW

michelle says:
   ok dang

michelle says:
   sorry about this

michelle says:
   i thought this cafe had better wireless

michelle says:
   i have a meeting here at noon so that's why i'm here
   versus my office
***michelle has left the conversation.***
***Kevin has left the conversation.***

michelle says:
   crap ok

Kevin says:
   Well, this is annoying.

michelle says:
   yes it is

michelle says:
   tomorrow i'll be in my office

gumnos (Tim Chase) says:
   No, 2000 chars is not a lot, ballpark about 400 words
   which is about 1-3 paragraphs.

michelle says:
   yep

michelle says:
   about 2 paragraphs

michelle says:
   so that radically changed what i had written last night

michelle says:
   thinking we had to write 2000 words

michelle says:
   so i'm reworking it

michelle says:
   can you guys work on a title, the take away message and
   intended audience?

gumnos (Tim Chase) says:
   you have last night's writings posted anywhere?  (that is
   if you want to collaboratively edit...)

michelle says:
   in case i totally lose my network

thomaswestin = Skype ID says:
   and it is one proposal for the entire tutorial day, not
   one for each speaker?

michelle says:
   no, because i keep losing connection :(

michelle says:
   one proposal

michelle says:
   each speaker needs to send me a 1000 char max bio

michelle says:
   so i need one from each of you

thomaswestin = Skype ID says:
   OK

michelle says:
   tim -- even if you are not going, can you send a bio and
   contact info

gumnos (Tim Chase) says:
   alrighty

michelle says:
   we can give your pass away to another person

thomaswestin = Skype ID says:
   I have last nights writings, just a sec

michelle says:
   if you cant go

michelle says:
   so what i wrote last night

gumnos (Tim Chase) says:
   not gonna be able to make it, though it would be fun to
   meet ya'll face-to-face

michelle says:
   was taken from the book proposal

michelle says:
   and was more choppy

michelle says:
   ok, that's ok tim -- we're trying to make sure we have a
   lot of conf passes so we can substitute people as needed

michelle says:
   since the igda has given us until friday to do this

michelle says:
   and just told us

michelle says:
   :P

michelle says:
   so if you don't mind sending a short bio, that'd be great

michelle says:
   so i'm going to re-work the abstract (the 2000word thing)

michelle says:
   but we need a catchy title

thomaswestin = Skype ID says:
   Could the book title work, "Game not over" ?
***michelle has left the conversation.***

thomaswestin = Skype ID says:
   to further promote it
***Kevin has left the conversation.***

michelle says:
   please talk about:

   * a catchy title
   * takeaway message
   * intended audience

   i have links at the top of the wiki page

   http://www.igda.org/wiki/index.php/GDC_2006_Tutorial

   that lead to last year's tutorial blurbs from others so we
   have a better sense of what to write

   and please send me your bios and contact info as soon as
   you
   can!

   and email me with the chat!

   thank you so much. i'm sorry about the networking probs.
   so
   annoying...

   m

thomaswestin = Skype ID says:
   OK

gumnos (Tim Chase) says:
   I miss much there? :)

   Catchy titles...Thomas suggested "Game not over"

michelle says:
   can you guys forward what i just sent you to tim?

thomaswestin = Skype ID says:
   yes

michelle says:
   thx!

gumnos (Tim Chase) says:
   ditto on the thx :)

michelle says:
   good, the title sounds good

michelle says:
   so basically take the audience part from the book proposal
   and condense it

michelle says:
   to 200 characters

gumnos (Tim Chase) says:
   200?  2000?

michelle says:
   wow. that's about 2 sentences :)

michelle says:
   audience = 200 chars

michelle says:
   http://www.igda.org/wiki/index.php/GDC_2006_Tutorial

gumnos (Tim Chase) says:
   (y)

michelle says:
   the breakdown is on here

thomaswestin = Skype ID says:
   Tim, I've forwarded the e-mails to you now

gumnos (Tim Chase) says:
   Thanks

michelle says:
   the section of the book proposal called LIST 5 TO 10
   SIGNIFICANT SELLING POINTS OF YOUR BOOK

michelle says:
   can be the idea take away (250 chars max)

Kevin says:
   "Our primary audience is Game Designers, Programmers, and
   Publishers. Designers will be interested new game play
   possibilities, programmers in techniques used to date and
   future techniques, and publishers in the effect on their
   customers."

thomaswestin = Skype ID says:
   good

michelle says:
   i'd sort it a little bit to include accessibility
   somewhere in there but sounds good so far! :)

     michelle has left the conversation.


Kevin says:
   "Our primary audience is Game Designers, Programmers, and
   Publishers. Designers will be interested new game play
   possibilities, programmers in techniques used to date and
   future techniques, and publishers in the effect of
   increased accessibility on their customers."

Kevin says:
   How about that one?

thomaswestin = Skype ID says:
   even better :)

gumnos (Tim Chase) says:
   >250 chars though :(

thomaswestin = Skype ID says:
   Perhaps skip the first sentence

Kevin says:
   I'll try to trim it a bit

Kevin says:
   "Game Designers will be interested new game play
   possibilities, programmers in techniques used to date and
   future techniques, and publishers in the effect of
   increased accessibility on their customers."

thomaswestin = Skype ID says:
   Perhaps we could capitalize the professions to make it
   them more visible in the text, to catch the eye

Kevin says:
   "Game Designers will be interested new game play
   possibilities, Programmers in techniques used to date and
   future techniques, and Publishers in the effect of
   increased accessibility on their customers."

Kevin says:
   "Game Designers will be interested in new game play
   possibilities, Programmers in techniques used to date and
   future techniques, and Publishers in the effect of
   increased accessibility on their customers."

Kevin says:
   Fixed a minor typo

thomaswestin = Skype ID says:
   or
   GAME DESIGNERS will be interested new game play
   possibilities, PROGRAMMERS in techniques used to date and
   future techniques, and PUBLISHERS in the effect of
   increased accessibility on their customers

Kevin says:
   That would work too

gumnos (Tim Chase) says:
   "techniques used to date and future techniques" ->
   "present and future techniques" ?

thomaswestin = Skype ID says:
   yes

Kevin says:
   "Game Designers will be interested in new game play
   possibilities, Programmers in present and future
   techniques, and Publishers in the effect of increased
   accessibility on their customers."


gumnos (Tim Chase) says:
   188 characters there

Kevin says:
   I don't think we're going to get much closer to the limit

gumnos (Tim Chase) says:
   It leaves a little room if one needed to sharpen the text
   any.

thomaswestin = Skype ID says:
   to further clarify the target groups:
   * GAME DESIGNERS will be interested in new game play
   * possibilities
   * PROGRAMMERS in present and future techniques, and
   * PUBLISHERS in the effect of increased accessibility on
   * their customers

Kevin says:
   Game Designers will be interested in new game play
   possibilitiesProgrammers in present and future techniques,
   and Publishers in the effect of increased accessibility on
   their customers."


gumnos (Tim Chase) says:
   ooh!  bullet points.  lazy readers love bullet points.

gumnos (Tim Chase) says:
   ;)

thomaswestin = Skype ID says:
   yes, like me ;)

Kevin says:
   That will work out well - lets do the bulleted list

thomaswestin = Skype ID says:
   OK, so we have the title and the intended audience
   covered. Should we move on to the "takeaway message" ?

gumnos (Tim Chase) says:
   Sure

thomaswestin = Skype ID says:
   just a first draft:
   "Learn why disabled gamers can't play your games, how you
   could meet their needs and what has been done to date" ?

gumnos (Tim Chase) says:
   perhaps something like "Attendees will learn why game
   accessibility matters and tips for making games more
   accessible"?

thomaswestin = Skype ID says:
   yes, a combo:
   "Attendees will learn why game accessibility matters and
   tips for making games more accessible. Learn why disabled
   gamers can't play your games, how you could meet their
   needs and what has been done to date"

gumnos (Tim Chase) says:
   we can bullet-ify it too :)

   Attendees will learn
   -why game accessibilty matters
   -why disabled gamers can't play your games
   -what has been done to date, and
   -how you can meet their needs in the future

thomaswestin = Skype ID says:
   yes :) I like

Kevin says:
   That looks good

thomaswestin = Skype ID says:
   cool, should I publish this on the wiki?

gumnos (Tim Chase) says:
   I reordered your last two, as there's sorta a natural
   progression from now into the future, whereas the previous
   ordering kinda lost the forward-looking perspective.

gumnos (Tim Chase) says:
   I'd not try and update the wiki in real-time as we're
   typing, but when we're done here, it would certainly be
   good to have on the wiki

thomaswestin = Skype ID says:
   so do we have more to add / change?

Kevin says:
   I think we're set for today.

thomaswestin = Skype ID says:
   OK, I'll copy paste the sections to the wiki in an hour or two 
(need to eat dinner first!)

Kevin says:
   OK, I'll talk to you Wednesday. I've got to go to another 
meeting here on campus.

gumnos (Tim Chase) says:
   That was the "intended audience", "idea takeaway", and
   promise to edit the stuff from the book for the "abstract"
   portion.  Yup.  I think we're done.  I've got the logs of
   this all tacked together and prettified a tad, so I can
   email them to ya'll.  Sounds good.

thomaswestin = Skype ID says:
   so do we have more to add / change?

Kevin says:
   I think we're set for today.



From hinn at uiuc.edu  Tue Oct  4 13:06:24 2005
From: hinn at uiuc.edu (hinn at uiuc.edu)
Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 12:06:24 -0500
Subject: [games_access] SIG Meetings Every Day
 this Week!
Message-ID: <97ff9d05.460e8a6f.87b4000@expms2.cites.uiuc.edu>

hi tim -- thanks for the transcript. just as a reminder, 
we'll be back online tomorrow (wednesday) at noon eastern on 
msn. by then we'll have the proposal on the wiki and we'll 
talk more about any final changes to that and about how gdc 
will work this year.

boy that conversation looks funny! :)

michelle

---- Original message ----
>Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2005 12:03:20 -0500
>From: Tim Chase <agdev at thechases.com>  
>Subject: Re: [games_access] SIG Meetings Every Day this 
Week!  
>To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List 
<games_access at igda.org>
>
>Below is the IM transcript from today's meeting.  Due to 
>Michelle's network problems, she said she wanted a 
transcript, 
>and Thomas expressed an interest too.  Hopefully others 
will find 
>it interesting (or at least not too boring)
>
>-tim
>
>
>
>
>
>michelle says:
>   ok i'm having some serious network probs
>
>thomaswestin = Skype ID says:
>   OK
>
>michelle says:
>   so if i drop out keep talking and then someone save the
>   conversation to email me with it
>
>gumnos (Tim Chase) says:
>   ok
>
>michelle says:
>   so to my surprise last night
>
>michelle says:
>   after re-reading the requirements and after jason from
>   igda sent a clarification
>
>michelle says:
>   i realized that the longest part of our proposal is our
>   abstract
>***You are having temporary network problems and are no
>longer in this conversation.***
>
>michelle says:
>   which needs to be 2000 CHARACTERS
>
>michelle says:
>   
http://www.igda.org/wiki/index.php/GDC_2006_Tutorial#Introduc
tion
>
>michelle says:
>   so for example
>
>michelle says:
>   look at my bio
>***michelle has left the conversation.***
>***Kevin has left the conversation.***
>
>michelle says:
>   
http://www.igda.org/wiki/index.php/GDC_2006_Tutorial#Introduc
tion
>
>michelle says:
>   so for example
>
>michelle says:
>   look at my bio
>
>michelle says:
>   that's 1000 characters
>
>michelle says:
>   so...the "meat" of our proposal needs to be twice that
>   size
>
>michelle says:
>   so that's not a lot
>
>michelle says:
>   WHEW
>
>michelle says:
>   ok dang
>
>michelle says:
>   sorry about this
>
>michelle says:
>   i thought this cafe had better wireless
>
>michelle says:
>   i have a meeting here at noon so that's why i'm here
>   versus my office
>***michelle has left the conversation.***
>***Kevin has left the conversation.***
>
>michelle says:
>   crap ok
>
>Kevin says:
>   Well, this is annoying.
>
>michelle says:
>   yes it is
>
>michelle says:
>   tomorrow i'll be in my office
>
>gumnos (Tim Chase) says:
>   No, 2000 chars is not a lot, ballpark about 400 words
>   which is about 1-3 paragraphs.
>
>michelle says:
>   yep
>
>michelle says:
>   about 2 paragraphs
>
>michelle says:
>   so that radically changed what i had written last night
>
>michelle says:
>   thinking we had to write 2000 words
>
>michelle says:
>   so i'm reworking it
>
>michelle says:
>   can you guys work on a title, the take away message and
>   intended audience?
>
>gumnos (Tim Chase) says:
>   you have last night's writings posted anywhere?  (that is
>   if you want to collaboratively edit...)
>
>michelle says:
>   in case i totally lose my network
>
>thomaswestin = Skype ID says:
>   and it is one proposal for the entire tutorial day, not
>   one for each speaker?
>
>michelle says:
>   no, because i keep losing connection :(
>
>michelle says:
>   one proposal
>
>michelle says:
>   each speaker needs to send me a 1000 char max bio
>
>michelle says:
>   so i need one from each of you
>
>thomaswestin = Skype ID says:
>   OK
>
>michelle says:
>   tim -- even if you are not going, can you send a bio and
>   contact info
>
>gumnos (Tim Chase) says:
>   alrighty
>
>michelle says:
>   we can give your pass away to another person
>
>thomaswestin = Skype ID says:
>   I have last nights writings, just a sec
>
>michelle says:
>   if you cant go
>
>michelle says:
>   so what i wrote last night
>
>gumnos (Tim Chase) says:
>   not gonna be able to make it, though it would be fun to
>   meet ya'll face-to-face
>
>michelle says:
>   was taken from the book proposal
>
>michelle says:
>   and was more choppy
>
>michelle says:
>   ok, that's ok tim -- we're trying to make sure we have a
>   lot of conf passes so we can substitute people as needed
>
>michelle says:
>   since the igda has given us until friday to do this
>
>michelle says:
>   and just told us
>
>michelle says:
>   :P
>
>michelle says:
>   so if you don't mind sending a short bio, that'd be great
>
>michelle says:
>   so i'm going to re-work the abstract (the 2000word thing)
>
>michelle says:
>   but we need a catchy title
>
>thomaswestin = Skype ID says:
>   Could the book title work, "Game not over" ?
>***michelle has left the conversation.***
>
>thomaswestin = Skype ID says:
>   to further promote it
>***Kevin has left the conversation.***
>
>michelle says:
>   please talk about:
>
>   * a catchy title
>   * takeaway message
>   * intended audience
>
>   i have links at the top of the wiki page
>
>   http://www.igda.org/wiki/index.php/GDC_2006_Tutorial
>
>   that lead to last year's tutorial blurbs from others so 
we
>   have a better sense of what to write
>
>   and please send me your bios and contact info as soon as
>   you
>   can!
>
>   and email me with the chat!
>
>   thank you so much. i'm sorry about the networking probs.
>   so
>   annoying...
>
>   m
>
>thomaswestin = Skype ID says:
>   OK
>
>gumnos (Tim Chase) says:
>   I miss much there? :)
>
>   Catchy titles...Thomas suggested "Game not over"
>
>michelle says:
>   can you guys forward what i just sent you to tim?
>
>thomaswestin = Skype ID says:
>   yes
>
>michelle says:
>   thx!
>
>gumnos (Tim Chase) says:
>   ditto on the thx :)
>
>michelle says:
>   good, the title sounds good
>
>michelle says:
>   so basically take the audience part from the book 
proposal
>   and condense it
>
>michelle says:
>   to 200 characters
>
>gumnos (Tim Chase) says:
>   200?  2000?
>
>michelle says:
>   wow. that's about 2 sentences :)
>
>michelle says:
>   audience = 200 chars
>
>michelle says:
>   http://www.igda.org/wiki/index.php/GDC_2006_Tutorial
>
>gumnos (Tim Chase) says:
>   (y)
>
>michelle says:
>   the breakdown is on here
>
>thomaswestin = Skype ID says:
>   Tim, I've forwarded the e-mails to you now
>
>gumnos (Tim Chase) says:
>   Thanks
>
>michelle says:
>   the section of the book proposal called LIST 5 TO 10
>   SIGNIFICANT SELLING POINTS OF YOUR BOOK
>
>michelle says:
>   can be the idea take away (250 chars max)
>
>Kevin says:
>   "Our primary audience is Game Designers, Programmers, and
>   Publishers. Designers will be interested new game play
>   possibilities, programmers in techniques used to date and
>   future techniques, and publishers in the effect on their
>   customers."
>
>thomaswestin = Skype ID says:
>   good
>
>michelle says:
>   i'd sort it a little bit to include accessibility
>   somewhere in there but sounds good so far! :)
>
>     michelle has left the conversation.
>
>
>Kevin says:
>   "Our primary audience is Game Designers, Programmers, and
>   Publishers. Designers will be interested new game play
>   possibilities, programmers in techniques used to date and
>   future techniques, and publishers in the effect of
>   increased accessibility on their customers."
>
>Kevin says:
>   How about that one?
>
>thomaswestin = Skype ID says:
>   even better :)
>
>gumnos (Tim Chase) says:
>   >250 chars though :(
>
>thomaswestin = Skype ID says:
>   Perhaps skip the first sentence
>
>Kevin says:
>   I'll try to trim it a bit
>
>Kevin says:
>   "Game Designers will be interested new game play
>   possibilities, programmers in techniques used to date and
>   future techniques, and publishers in the effect of
>   increased accessibility on their customers."
>
>thomaswestin = Skype ID says:
>   Perhaps we could capitalize the professions to make it
>   them more visible in the text, to catch the eye
>
>Kevin says:
>   "Game Designers will be interested new game play
>   possibilities, Programmers in techniques used to date and
>   future techniques, and Publishers in the effect of
>   increased accessibility on their customers."
>
>Kevin says:
>   "Game Designers will be interested in new game play
>   possibilities, Programmers in techniques used to date and
>   future techniques, and Publishers in the effect of
>   increased accessibility on their customers."
>
>Kevin says:
>   Fixed a minor typo
>
>thomaswestin = Skype ID says:
>   or
>   GAME DESIGNERS will be interested new game play
>   possibilities, PROGRAMMERS in techniques used to date and
>   future techniques, and PUBLISHERS in the effect of
>   increased accessibility on their customers
>
>Kevin says:
>   That would work too
>
>gumnos (Tim Chase) says:
>   "techniques used to date and future techniques" ->
>   "present and future techniques" ?
>
>thomaswestin = Skype ID says:
>   yes
>
>Kevin says:
>   "Game Designers will be interested in new game play
>   possibilities, Programmers in present and future
>   techniques, and Publishers in the effect of increased
>   accessibility on their customers."
>
>
>gumnos (Tim Chase) says:
>   188 characters there
>
>Kevin says:
>   I don't think we're going to get much closer to the limit
>
>gumnos (Tim Chase) says:
>   It leaves a little room if one needed to sharpen the text
>   any.
>
>thomaswestin = Skype ID says:
>   to further clarify the target groups:
>   * GAME DESIGNERS will be interested in new game play
>   * possibilities
>   * PROGRAMMERS in present and future techniques, and
>   * PUBLISHERS in the effect of increased accessibility on
>   * their customers
>
>Kevin says:
>   Game Designers will be interested in new game play
>   possibilitiesProgrammers in present and future 
techniques,
>   and Publishers in the effect of increased accessibility 
on
>   their customers."
>
>
>gumnos (Tim Chase) says:
>   ooh!  bullet points.  lazy readers love bullet points.
>
>gumnos (Tim Chase) says:
>   ;)
>
>thomaswestin = Skype ID says:
>   yes, like me ;)
>
>Kevin says:
>   That will work out well - lets do the bulleted list
>
>thomaswestin = Skype ID says:
>   OK, so we have the title and the intended audience
>   covered. Should we move on to the "takeaway message" ?
>
>gumnos (Tim Chase) says:
>   Sure
>
>thomaswestin = Skype ID says:
>   just a first draft:
>   "Learn why disabled gamers can't play your games, how you
>   could meet their needs and what has been done to date" ?
>
>gumnos (Tim Chase) says:
>   perhaps something like "Attendees will learn why game
>   accessibility matters and tips for making games more
>   accessible"?
>
>thomaswestin = Skype ID says:
>   yes, a combo:
>   "Attendees will learn why game accessibility matters and
>   tips for making games more accessible. Learn why disabled
>   gamers can't play your games, how you could meet their
>   needs and what has been done to date"
>
>gumnos (Tim Chase) says:
>   we can bullet-ify it too :)
>
>   Attendees will learn
>   -why game accessibilty matters
>   -why disabled gamers can't play your games
>   -what has been done to date, and
>   -how you can meet their needs in the future
>
>thomaswestin = Skype ID says:
>   yes :) I like
>
>Kevin says:
>   That looks good
>
>thomaswestin = Skype ID says:
>   cool, should I publish this on the wiki?
>
>gumnos (Tim Chase) says:
>   I reordered your last two, as there's sorta a natural
>   progression from now into the future, whereas the 
previous
>   ordering kinda lost the forward-looking perspective.
>
>gumnos (Tim Chase) says:
>   I'd not try and update the wiki in real-time as we're
>   typing, but when we're done here, it would certainly be
>   good to have on the wiki
>
>thomaswestin = Skype ID says:
>   so do we have more to add / change?
>
>Kevin says:
>   I think we're set for today.
>
>thomaswestin = Skype ID says:
>   OK, I'll copy paste the sections to the wiki in an hour 
or two 
>(need to eat dinner first!)
>
>Kevin says:
>   OK, I'll talk to you Wednesday. I've got to go to 
another 
>meeting here on campus.
>
>gumnos (Tim Chase) says:
>   That was the "intended audience", "idea takeaway", and
>   promise to edit the stuff from the book for 
the "abstract"
>   portion.  Yup.  I think we're done.  I've got the logs of
>   this all tacked together and prettified a tad, so I can
>   email them to ya'll.  Sounds good.
>
>thomaswestin = Skype ID says:
>   so do we have more to add / change?
>
>Kevin says:
>   I think we're set for today.
>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access


From thomas at pininteractive.com  Tue Oct  4 14:53:57 2005
From: thomas at pininteractive.com (Thomas Westin)
Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2005 20:53:57 +0200
Subject: [games_access] SIG Meetings Every Day this Week!
In-Reply-To: <4342B5D8.5060509@thechases.com>
References: <2d7d0f3.45c92fb6.8d0f300@expms2.cites.uiuc.edu>
	<4342B5D8.5060509@thechases.com>
Message-ID: <fc.00802e9a00b490ee3b9aca009090fc7b.b490f2@eden.grace.se>

have updated the wiki now (SIG projects / GDC Tutorial section)

with title, audience and idea takeaway

/Thomas

Pin Interactive AB www.pininteractive.com
MSN ID:  thomas at pininteractive.com
Skype ID: thomaswestin 
Time zone: CET (GMT+1, PST+9)
____________________________________________________
Award Winning 3D Game for Blind and Sighted: www.terraformers.nu 
IGDA Game Accessibility SIG www.igda.org/accessibility/ 


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://pairlist7.pair.net/pipermail/games_access/attachments/20051004/bf79aa83/attachment.htm>

From hinn at uiuc.edu  Tue Oct  4 15:17:27 2005
From: hinn at uiuc.edu (hinn at uiuc.edu)
Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 14:17:27 -0500
Subject: [games_access] SIG Meetings Every Day
 this Week!
Message-ID: <6ca5f0da.461a89c7.900ee00@expms2.cites.uiuc.edu>

great, thanks thomas! i'll add in the remainder and then we 
can all talk about it tomorrow.

in the meantime, if you are planning to be a part of the 
tutorial "staff" -- i need a 1000 character (not words, 
characters) bio about you plus your contact information as 
soon as possible. email me at hinn at uiuc.edu offlist with 
this and/or if you have any questions.

thanks,
michelle

---- Original message ----
>Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2005 20:53:57 +0200
>From: "Thomas Westin" <thomas at pininteractive.com>  
>Subject: Re: [games_access] SIG Meetings Every Day this 
Week!  
>To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" 
<games_access at igda.org>
>
>   have updated the wiki now (SIG projects / GDC
>   Tutorial section)
>
>   with title, audience and idea takeaway
>
>   /Thomas
>
>   Pin Interactive AB www.pininteractive.com
>   MSN ID:  thomas at pininteractive.com
>   Skype ID: thomaswestin
>   Time zone: CET (GMT+1, PST+9)
>   ____________________________________________________
>   Award Winning 3D Game for Blind and Sighted:
>   www.terraformers.nu 
>   IGDA Game Accessibility SIG
>   www.igda.org/accessibility/ 
>________________
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access


From hinn at uiuc.edu  Tue Oct  4 17:13:05 2005
From: hinn at uiuc.edu (hinn at uiuc.edu)
Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 16:13:05 -0500
Subject: [games_access] SIG Business Cards
Message-ID: <a2ce8ef.46251fde.824e400@expms2.cites.uiuc.edu>

Hi all,

I have LOTS of SIG business cards (cards with the sig web 
address, email address, and the igda symbol) for people. 
Please email me off list at hinn at uiuc.edu if you'd like me 
to send you some by mail. Useful to hand out at conferences, 
etc. :)

Thanks!
Michelle


From richard at audiogames.net  Wed Oct  5 18:46:22 2005
From: richard at audiogames.net (AudioGames.net)
Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 00:46:22 +0200
Subject: [games_access] SIG Meetings Every Day this Week!
References: <2d7d0f3.45c92fb6.8d0f300@expms2.cites.uiuc.edu><4342B5D8.5060509@thechases.com>
	<fc.00802e9a00b490ee3b9aca009090fc7b.b490f2@eden.grace.se>
Message-ID: <002301c5c9fe$9c7051d0$29fc8418@Delletje>

Read it! Excellent stuff!

I plan to visit next years GDC (for a presentation on game audio I hope) and I'm wondering how I can contribute? I have the idea of having footage of disabled gamers trying to play mainstream games (and failing miserably) that can run on some presentation computer(s) and/or be used in a presentation. Our foundation has footage of our foundation but mostly it's of sighted and blind gamers playing audio games, like Drive and Demor (which, by the way, is a good example of one of the most advanced location based games out there :). We're currently setting up a game accessibility project in which there is probably budget to tape such footage (we've already planned it to use on our website). So... ?
Also, is it an idea to invite representative disabled gamers to the GDC, each one showing examples of current accessible games?

Greets,

Richard 




  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Thomas Westin 
  To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List 
  Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 8:53 PM
  Subject: Re: [games_access] SIG Meetings Every Day this Week!


  have updated the wiki now (SIG projects / GDC Tutorial section)

  with title, audience and idea takeaway

  /Thomas

  Pin Interactive AB www.pininteractive.com
  MSN ID:  thomas at pininteractive.com
  Skype ID: thomaswestin 
  Time zone: CET (GMT+1, PST+9)
  ____________________________________________________
  Award Winning 3D Game for Blind and Sighted: www.terraformers.nu 
  IGDA Game Accessibility SIG www.igda.org/accessibility/ 




------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  games_access mailing list
  games_access at igda.org
  http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://pairlist7.pair.net/pipermail/games_access/attachments/20051006/3e474c43/attachment.htm>

From hinn at uiuc.edu  Wed Oct  5 19:05:18 2005
From: hinn at uiuc.edu (hinn at uiuc.edu)
Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 18:05:18 -0500
Subject: [games_access] SIG Meetings Every Day
 this Week!
Message-ID: <b9238f80.46b33aa9.9e65c00@expms2.cites.uiuc.edu>

Hi Richard,

Do you have some video footage that you could bring to the 
tutorial then? That'd be great!

Michelle

---- Original message ----
>Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 00:46:22 +0200
>From: "AudioGames.net" <richard at audiogames.net>  
>Subject: Re: [games_access] SIG Meetings Every Day this 
Week!  
>To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" 
<games_access at igda.org>
>
>   Read it! Excellent stuff!
>    
>   I plan to visit next years GDC (for a presentation
>   on game audio I hope) and I'm wondering how I can
>   contribute? I have the idea of having footage of
>   disabled gamers trying to play mainstream games (and
>   failing miserably) that can run on some presentation
>   computer(s) and/or be used in a presentation. Our
>   foundation has footage of our foundation but mostly
>   it's of sighted and blind gamers playing audio
>   games, like Drive and Demor (which, by the way, is a
>   good example of one of the most advanced location
>   based games out there :). We're currently setting up
>   a game accessibility project in which there is
>   probably budget to tape such footage (we've already
>   planned it to use on our website). So... ?
>   Also, is it an idea to invite representative
>   disabled gamers to the GDC, each one
>   showing examples of current accessible games?
>    
>   Greets,
>    
>   Richard 
>    
>    
>    
>    
>
>     ----- Original Message -----
>     From: Thomas Westin
>     To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
>     Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 8:53 PM
>     Subject: Re: [games_access] SIG Meetings Every Day
>     this Week!
>     have updated the wiki now (SIG projects / GDC
>     Tutorial section)
>
>     with title, audience and idea takeaway
>
>     /Thomas
>
>     Pin Interactive AB www.pininteractive.com
>     MSN ID:  thomas at pininteractive.com
>     Skype ID: thomaswestin
>     Time zone: CET (GMT+1, PST+9)
>     ____________________________________________________
>     Award Winning 3D Game for Blind and Sighted:
>     www.terraformers.nu 
>     IGDA Game Accessibility SIG
>     www.igda.org/accessibility/ 
>
>     ------------------------------------------------
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     games_access mailing list
>     games_access at igda.org
>     http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>________________
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access


From hinn at uiuc.edu  Thu Oct  6 02:04:06 2005
From: hinn at uiuc.edu (hinn at uiuc.edu)
Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 01:04:06 -0500
Subject: [games_access] No more meetings this week :)
Message-ID: <92d32719.46d991e5.81a9800@expms2.cites.uiuc.edu>

Hi everyone,

Thanks to everyone who helped out with the SIG Tutorial 
write up. Everything is just about wrapped up and ready to 
send out. I'll send out the final versions tomorrow 
afternoon. I have a meeting tomorrow at our regular meeting 
time that was scheduled late today so I won't be able to 
meet tomorrow. But since we're mostly all set, I don't think 
we need to meet online again. 

So no meeting tomorrow, Thursday, or Friday. 

Thanks again everyone for your help in getting this together 
quickly!

Michelle


From jason at igda.org  Wed Oct 19 10:39:56 2005
From: jason at igda.org (Jason Della Rocca)
Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 10:39:56 -0400
Subject: [games_access] Developer Demographics/Diversity Report
Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20051019103953.02879d18@mail.igda.org>

Hi all,

Just a quick ping to point to our newest report:

"Game Developer Demographics: An Exploration of Workforce Diversity"
http://www.igda.org/diversity/report.php


It is an interesting, and quick (ie, lots of pretty graphs), doc to read 
through...

Jason

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jason Della Rocca
Executive Director
International Game Developers Association

t: +1-514-426-1162
f: +1-514-426-1201
Montreal, Canada
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

http://www.igda.org/
http://www.realitypanic.com/

"Do or do not. There is no try."
- Yoda



From richard at audiogames.net  Sun Oct 23 18:45:04 2005
From: richard at audiogames.net (AudioGames.net)
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 00:45:04 +0200
Subject: [games_access] Developer Demographics/Diversity Report
References: <6.2.1.2.0.20051019103953.02879d18@mail.igda.org>
Message-ID: <01f801c5d823$68f70000$29fc8418@Delletje>

Hi,

I also participated in this survey (but since I work in a non-english 
speaking country, my data was filtered from the results ;). Interesting to 
read that 13% of the people working in the game industry are disabled 
THEMSELVES! Here's a snip from page 18-19 (sorry for the inaccessible 
tables):

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Disabilities

87% of respondents did not report having a disability. [Fig.9] Of the 
remaining 13%, mental and cognitive disabilities are the most prevalent. 
[Fig.10] This could be due to the fact that the mental and cognitive 
disability categories included common and/or treatable conditions such as 
depression and ADD/HD. Refer to Table 9 for an extended list of example 
disabilities that were provided for each category in the survey.

Table 9: Disability Examples by Category
Sight: Blind or partially sighted
Hearing: Deaf or hard of hearing
Cognitive: Dyslexia, ADD/HD, specific learning disability, autism, etc
Mental: Depression, schizophrenia, etc
Mobility: Paraplegia, quadriplegia, cerebral palsy, ALS, etc

Opinions by Disability

The opinion questions split by disability tend to follow a similar pattern 
to those split by gender. [Table5] In the first four questions, the two 
groups are very close to each other; however, they do diverge on the last 
three questions by a more significant amount. [Table10] Thus, those with 
disabilities also seem to have a more future-minded outlook. They seem to be 
optimistic about the direction in which the industry is moving.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Greets,

Richard





----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jason Della Rocca" <jason at igda.org>
To: <games_access at igda.org>
Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2005 4:39 PM
Subject: [games_access] Developer Demographics/Diversity Report


> Hi all,
>
> Just a quick ping to point to our newest report:
>
> "Game Developer Demographics: An Exploration of Workforce Diversity"
> http://www.igda.org/diversity/report.php
>
>
> It is an interesting, and quick (ie, lots of pretty graphs), doc to read 
> through...
>
> Jason
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Jason Della Rocca
> Executive Director
> International Game Developers Association
>
> t: +1-514-426-1162
> f: +1-514-426-1201
> Montreal, Canada
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> http://www.igda.org/
> http://www.realitypanic.com/
>
> "Do or do not. There is no try."
> - Yoda
>
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access 



From rkimball at gmail.com  Mon Oct 24 16:27:27 2005
From: rkimball at gmail.com (Reid Kimball)
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 15:27:27 -0500
Subject: [games_access] Ernest Adams mentions accessibility issues in article
Message-ID: <a6673b8d0510241327m724a93a1s65803b0227f769c5@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20051003/adams_01.shtml

I'm glad he admitted he didn't know about the issues at first, which
kept him from writing about it in his 1st publication of the Bill of
Player's Rights. We still have much work to do I guess and GDC '06
will be big for us to get the word out. I'm thinking t-shirts, coffee
mugs, hired entertainers! Well, maybe not...

Also, my independent captioning group is now working on Quake4. Our
project will be called, (drum roll please...) Quake4[CC], *ding!*

-Reid


From hinn at uiuc.edu  Mon Oct 24 16:39:31 2005
From: hinn at uiuc.edu (hinn at uiuc.edu)
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 15:39:31 -0500
Subject: [games_access] Ernest Adams mentions
	accessibility issues in article
Message-ID: <e39165e2.506eaeef.8210b00@expms2.cites.uiuc.edu>

Nice!!! Thanks, Reid, for following up with him about that --
 nice, honest response from Ernest.

Yes GDC06! Speaking of...we need to start meeting again 
regularly so that we can get everything planned out now that 
we're officially on the program. :) More details coming 
soon -- How about starting up again monday, oct 31 (yep, 
halloween!) at 12noon (new york time)/11am (chicago time)?

T-shirts and mugs...not a bad idea. Anyone have some cool 
logo ideas for a cafepress store? 

Michelle

---- Original message ----
>Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 15:27:27 -0500
>From: Reid Kimball <rkimball at gmail.com>  
>Subject: [games_access] Ernest Adams mentions accessibility 
issues in article  
>To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List 
<games_access at igda.org>
>
>http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20051003/adams_01.shtml
>
>I'm glad he admitted he didn't know about the issues at 
first, which
>kept him from writing about it in his 1st publication of 
the Bill of
>Player's Rights. We still have much work to do I guess and 
GDC '06
>will be big for us to get the word out. I'm thinking t-
shirts, coffee
>mugs, hired entertainers! Well, maybe not...
>
>Also, my independent captioning group is now working on 
Quake4. Our
>project will be called, (drum roll please...) Quake4[CC], 
*ding!*
>
>-Reid
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access


From richard at audiogames.net  Mon Oct 24 16:55:44 2005
From: richard at audiogames.net (AudioGames.net)
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 22:55:44 +0200
Subject: [games_access] Ernest Adams mentions accessibility issues in
	article
References: <a6673b8d0510241327m724a93a1s65803b0227f769c5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001901c5d8dd$4d33a750$29fc8418@Delletje>

GREAT NEWS! Thanks, Reid!

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Reid Kimball" <rkimball at gmail.com>
To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
Sent: Monday, October 24, 2005 10:27 PM
Subject: [games_access] Ernest Adams mentions accessibility issues in 
article


http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20051003/adams_01.shtml

I'm glad he admitted he didn't know about the issues at first, which
kept him from writing about it in his 1st publication of the Bill of
Player's Rights. We still have much work to do I guess and GDC '06
will be big for us to get the word out. I'm thinking t-shirts, coffee
mugs, hired entertainers! Well, maybe not...

Also, my independent captioning group is now working on Quake4. Our
project will be called, (drum roll please...) Quake4[CC], *ding!*

-Reid
_______________________________________________
games_access mailing list
games_access at igda.org
http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access 



From barrie.ellis at oneswitch.org.uk  Mon Oct 24 17:50:55 2005
From: barrie.ellis at oneswitch.org.uk (Barrie Ellis)
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 22:50:55 +0100
Subject: [games_access] Ernest Adams mentions accessibility issues in
	article
References: <a6673b8d0510241327m724a93a1s65803b0227f769c5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000c01c5d8e5$02fd9210$0502a8c0@OneSwitch>

Good work, Reid. Nice.

Barrie
www.OneSwitch.org.uk


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Reid Kimball" <rkimball at gmail.com>
To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
Sent: Monday, October 24, 2005 9:27 PM
Subject: [games_access] Ernest Adams mentions accessibility issues in 
article


http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20051003/adams_01.shtml

I'm glad he admitted he didn't know about the issues at first, which
kept him from writing about it in his 1st publication of the Bill of
Player's Rights. We still have much work to do I guess and GDC '06
will be big for us to get the word out. I'm thinking t-shirts, coffee
mugs, hired entertainers! Well, maybe not...

Also, my independent captioning group is now working on Quake4. Our
project will be called, (drum roll please...) Quake4[CC], *ding!*

-Reid
_______________________________________________
games_access mailing list
games_access at igda.org
http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access






From barrie.ellis at oneswitch.org.uk  Tue Oct 25 03:24:41 2005
From: barrie.ellis at oneswitch.org.uk (Barrie Ellis)
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 08:24:41 +0100
Subject: [games_access] Accessible Pinball
References: <e39165e2.506eaeef.8210b00@expms2.cites.uiuc.edu>
Message-ID: <00c501c5d935$2aeebbf0$0502a8c0@OneSwitch>

"The Unique Design Challenge of Pinball Simulations" is an interesting 
article (http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20051003/adams_01.shtml). Pinball 
Simulations seem like one of the most obvious genres of games that can be 
made highly accessible for many disabled gamers. Off the top of my head:

1. Game speed control. From VERY slow to how ever fast the designer wishes.
2. User-definable controls with the ability to mask multiple buttons to a 
single control. There's no reason why START, the plunger, LEFT flipper and 
RIGHT flipper couldn't all be operated by a single button.
3. Gap adjustment for how widely the flippers are spaced apart. Or 
alternatively, bounce pins for the gutters (not sure on the terms, but 
something to help stop the ball going out of play so easily).
4. 3D sound that can be exagerated to aid partially sighted/blind gamers.
5. Simple, clear menus that can be spoken.
6. Simplified graphics modes. E.g. just the outlines of the playing field. 
Perhaps with a line thickness control.
7. Variety of viewing angles, including one that tracks the ball at various 
overhead distances.
8. Wide difficulty level settings (choice of balls, ease of play).


As for the Cafe Press idea - who designed the AudioGames logo? Might they be 
able to come up with something that catches all? Might be an idea to use 
something including the blue badge symbol, as it's so well known around the 
world.

Halloween Monday sounds good to me Michelle.

Barrie
www.OneSwitch.org.uk







----- Original Message ----- 
From: <hinn at uiuc.edu>
To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
Sent: Monday, October 24, 2005 9:39 PM
Subject: Re: [games_access] Ernest Adams mentionsaccessibility issues in 
article


> Nice!!! Thanks, Reid, for following up with him about that --
> nice, honest response from Ernest.
>
> Yes GDC06! Speaking of...we need to start meeting again
> regularly so that we can get everything planned out now that
> we're officially on the program. :) More details coming
> soon -- How about starting up again monday, oct 31 (yep,
> halloween!) at 12noon (new york time)/11am (chicago time)?
>
> T-shirts and mugs...not a bad idea. Anyone have some cool
> logo ideas for a cafepress store?
>
> Michelle
>
> ---- Original message ----
>>Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 15:27:27 -0500
>>From: Reid Kimball <rkimball at gmail.com>
>>Subject: [games_access] Ernest Adams mentions accessibility
> issues in article
>>To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
> <games_access at igda.org>
>>
>>http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20051003/adams_01.shtml
>>
>>I'm glad he admitted he didn't know about the issues at
> first, which
>>kept him from writing about it in his 1st publication of
> the Bill of
>>Player's Rights. We still have much work to do I guess and
> GDC '06
>>will be big for us to get the word out. I'm thinking t-
> shirts, coffee
>>mugs, hired entertainers! Well, maybe not...
>>
>>Also, my independent captioning group is now working on
> Quake4. Our
>>project will be called, (drum roll please...) Quake4[CC],
> *ding!*
>>
>>-Reid
>>_______________________________________________
>>games_access mailing list
>>games_access at igda.org
>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
> 





From j.chetwynd at btinternet.com  Tue Oct 25 03:57:08 2005
From: j.chetwynd at btinternet.com (Jonathan Chetwynd)
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 08:57:08 +0100
Subject: [games_access] Ernest Adams mentions accessibility issues in
	article
In-Reply-To: <a6673b8d0510241327m724a93a1s65803b0227f769c5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a6673b8d0510241327m724a93a1s65803b0227f769c5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0F208338-8064-4D4C-ADFB-278B0D1B2402@btinternet.com>

Reid: excellent progress! Congratulations

Michelle: please try to include GDC Europe '06 in your plans, If we  
can get confirmation on this event, I can spend some regular time  
preparing, inviting etc....

regards

Jonathan Chetwynd
Accessibility Consultant on Learning Disabilities and the Internet

29 Crimsworth Road
SW8 4RJ

020 7978 1764




From agdev at thechases.com  Tue Oct 25 10:55:53 2005
From: agdev at thechases.com (Tim Chase)
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 09:55:53 -0500
Subject: [games_access] "Top 10" list for GDC
Message-ID: <435E4779.3010102@thechases.com>

I've updated the "Top 10" page with what I feel to be a good
list, though as usual, comments from the peanut gallery are
always welcome :)

You should be able to find the online copy at

http://www.igda.org/wiki/index.php/Top_Ten

but for you who are impatient like myself:

    1. allow all controls (mouse, keyboard, gamepad)
	to be remapped
    2. add closed-captioning for all dialog and important
	sound-effects
    3. provide help files in an accessible format
	(HTML or plain-text)
    4. provide variable degrees of aiming
	assistance/auto-targeting
    5. provide a broad range of difficulty levels from
	incredibly simple to difficult
    6. make interface fonts scalable
    7. allow for high-contrast color schemes
    8. add audio tags to all significant elements (actors,
	doors, items, resulting actions, etc) in true
	spatial 3D audio
    9. allow for time-scaling
   10. one more idea here

I'm still looking for a good candidate for #10, my first though
is to make it something like "get out there and do what you can
from this list to make a difference".  A list of ideas is nice,
but not doing any of them fails to benefit anybody.

Additionally, I'm taking suggestions for the format in which to
put it.  A little off-list dialog with Michelle seemed to show
that while bookmarks are nice, fitting all these ideas onto a
bookmark requires a fairly small font.  Don't want to make our
"how to be more accessible" list hard on those with poor eyesight
:)  While some of us have minimal problems with 7-point font, I'm
sure most folks would smack me for trying that stunt.  A full
8.5"x11" piece of paper was a bit large, hard to fill, and kinda
unwieldy in general.  My favorite ideas so far are half-sheets of
paper...either of regular 8.5"x11" or of legal 8.5"x14", making
the final result 5.5"x8.5" or 7"x8.5".  I like the
half-a-regular-sheet for the simplicity, but I like the
half-a-legal-sheet for the asthetic dimensions (it looks and
feels more like a "reference card" sort of sheet)

Comments, suggestions, ideas, etc. are all welcome.  Hey, it's a
wiki...you can even tweak it yourself :)

-tim







From hinn at uiuc.edu  Tue Oct 25 13:35:26 2005
From: hinn at uiuc.edu (hinn at uiuc.edu)
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 12:35:26 -0500
Subject: [games_access] "Top 10" list for GDC
Message-ID: <6ee8c031.50e1a963.db93100@expms2.cites.uiuc.edu>

thanks, tim, for this! 

this will be linked from the sig gdc roundtable info on the 
gdc website so that people can watch and participate in the 
discussion about the top ten if they like before and after 
the gdc!

wiki's = fun! :)

michelle

---- Original message ----
>Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 09:55:53 -0500
>From: Tim Chase <agdev at thechases.com>  
>Subject: [games_access] "Top 10" list for GDC  
>To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List 
<games_access at igda.org>
>
>I've updated the "Top 10" page with what I feel to be a good
>list, though as usual, comments from the peanut gallery are
>always welcome :)
>
>You should be able to find the online copy at
>
>http://www.igda.org/wiki/index.php/Top_Ten
>
>but for you who are impatient like myself:
>
>    1. allow all controls (mouse, keyboard, gamepad)
>	to be remapped
>    2. add closed-captioning for all dialog and important
>	sound-effects
>    3. provide help files in an accessible format
>	(HTML or plain-text)
>    4. provide variable degrees of aiming
>	assistance/auto-targeting
>    5. provide a broad range of difficulty levels from
>	incredibly simple to difficult
>    6. make interface fonts scalable
>    7. allow for high-contrast color schemes
>    8. add audio tags to all significant elements (actors,
>	doors, items, resulting actions, etc) in true
>	spatial 3D audio
>    9. allow for time-scaling
>   10. one more idea here
>
>I'm still looking for a good candidate for #10, my first 
though
>is to make it something like "get out there and do what you 
can
>from this list to make a difference".  A list of ideas is 
nice,
>but not doing any of them fails to benefit anybody.
>
>Additionally, I'm taking suggestions for the format in 
which to
>put it.  A little off-list dialog with Michelle seemed to 
show
>that while bookmarks are nice, fitting all these ideas onto 
a
>bookmark requires a fairly small font.  Don't want to make 
our
>"how to be more accessible" list hard on those with poor 
eyesight
>:)  While some of us have minimal problems with 7-point 
font, I'm
>sure most folks would smack me for trying that stunt.  A 
full
>8.5"x11" piece of paper was a bit large, hard to fill, and 
kinda
>unwieldy in general.  My favorite ideas so far are half-
sheets of
>paper...either of regular 8.5"x11" or of legal 8.5"x14", 
making
>the final result 5.5"x8.5" or 7"x8.5".  I like the
>half-a-regular-sheet for the simplicity, but I like the
>half-a-legal-sheet for the asthetic dimensions (it looks and
>feels more like a "reference card" sort of sheet)
>
>Comments, suggestions, ideas, etc. are all welcome.  Hey, 
it's a
>wiki...you can even tweak it yourself :)
>
>-tim
>
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access


From richard at audiogames.net  Tue Oct 25 13:42:31 2005
From: richard at audiogames.net (AudioGames.net)
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 19:42:31 +0200
Subject: [games_access] Accessible Pinball
References: <e39165e2.506eaeef.8210b00@expms2.cites.uiuc.edu>
	<00c501c5d935$2aeebbf0$0502a8c0@OneSwitch>
Message-ID: <00d901c5d98b$7a1d28a0$bec85dd5@Delletje>

Hi Barrie,

I designed the AudioGames.net personally. For our Game Accessibility project 
I also designed a similar logo, of a white joystick with red stripes, mixing 
the traditional blind cane with a joystick. Will show it to you when the 
project launches (a month or so I hope). I've made a couple of designs for 
this project. I might have something laying around that we can use.

Greets,

Richard



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Barrie Ellis" <barrie.ellis at oneswitch.org.uk>
To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2005 9:24 AM
Subject: [games_access] Accessible Pinball


> "The Unique Design Challenge of Pinball Simulations" is an interesting 
> article (http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20051003/adams_01.shtml). 
> Pinball Simulations seem like one of the most obvious genres of games that 
> can be made highly accessible for many disabled gamers. Off the top of my 
> head:
>
> 1. Game speed control. From VERY slow to how ever fast the designer 
> wishes.
> 2. User-definable controls with the ability to mask multiple buttons to a 
> single control. There's no reason why START, the plunger, LEFT flipper and 
> RIGHT flipper couldn't all be operated by a single button.
> 3. Gap adjustment for how widely the flippers are spaced apart. Or 
> alternatively, bounce pins for the gutters (not sure on the terms, but 
> something to help stop the ball going out of play so easily).
> 4. 3D sound that can be exagerated to aid partially sighted/blind gamers.
> 5. Simple, clear menus that can be spoken.
> 6. Simplified graphics modes. E.g. just the outlines of the playing field. 
> Perhaps with a line thickness control.
> 7. Variety of viewing angles, including one that tracks the ball at 
> various overhead distances.
> 8. Wide difficulty level settings (choice of balls, ease of play).
>
>
> As for the Cafe Press idea - who designed the AudioGames logo? Might they 
> be able to come up with something that catches all? Might be an idea to 
> use something including the blue badge symbol, as it's so well known 
> around the world.
>
> Halloween Monday sounds good to me Michelle.
>
> Barrie
> www.OneSwitch.org.uk
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: <hinn at uiuc.edu>
> To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
> Sent: Monday, October 24, 2005 9:39 PM
> Subject: Re: [games_access] Ernest Adams mentionsaccessibility issues in 
> article
>
>
>> Nice!!! Thanks, Reid, for following up with him about that --
>> nice, honest response from Ernest.
>>
>> Yes GDC06! Speaking of...we need to start meeting again
>> regularly so that we can get everything planned out now that
>> we're officially on the program. :) More details coming
>> soon -- How about starting up again monday, oct 31 (yep,
>> halloween!) at 12noon (new york time)/11am (chicago time)?
>>
>> T-shirts and mugs...not a bad idea. Anyone have some cool
>> logo ideas for a cafepress store?
>>
>> Michelle
>>
>> ---- Original message ----
>>>Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 15:27:27 -0500
>>>From: Reid Kimball <rkimball at gmail.com>
>>>Subject: [games_access] Ernest Adams mentions accessibility
>> issues in article
>>>To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
>> <games_access at igda.org>
>>>
>>>http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20051003/adams_01.shtml
>>>
>>>I'm glad he admitted he didn't know about the issues at
>> first, which
>>>kept him from writing about it in his 1st publication of
>> the Bill of
>>>Player's Rights. We still have much work to do I guess and
>> GDC '06
>>>will be big for us to get the word out. I'm thinking t-
>> shirts, coffee
>>>mugs, hired entertainers! Well, maybe not...
>>>
>>>Also, my independent captioning group is now working on
>> Quake4. Our
>>>project will be called, (drum roll please...) Quake4[CC],
>> *ding!*
>>>
>>>-Reid
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>games_access mailing list
>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>> _______________________________________________
>> games_access mailing list
>> games_access at igda.org
>> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>
>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access 



From hinn at uiuc.edu  Tue Oct 25 13:53:48 2005
From: hinn at uiuc.edu (hinn at uiuc.edu)
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 12:53:48 -0500
Subject: [games_access] Ernest Adams mentions
	accessibility issues in	article
Message-ID: <b09836ca.50e357dd.cc0c400@expms2.cites.uiuc.edu>

>Michelle: please try to include GDC Europe '06 in your 
plans, If we  
>can get confirmation on this event, I can spend some 
regular time  
>preparing, inviting etc....

Hi Jonathan -- yes, let me know when you hear about the call 
for proposals. I normally get an email about it too but 
let's be on the lookout for it the second it comes out. We 
have enough stuff to easily get a proposal in quickly.

Thanks!
Michelle


From richard at audiogames.net  Tue Oct 25 17:16:12 2005
From: richard at audiogames.net (AudioGames.net)
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 23:16:12 +0200
Subject: [games_access] Accessible Pinball
References: <e39165e2.506eaeef.8210b00@expms2.cites.uiuc.edu>
	<00c501c5d935$2aeebbf0$0502a8c0@OneSwitch>
Message-ID: <002501c5d9a9$53d92f90$bec85dd5@Delletje>

Hi,

I forgot the White Cane/Joystick- symbol design I made was already published 
in this article:

http://www.accessibility.nl/internet/artikelen/gametoegankelijkheid

(a Dutch article on Game Accessibility)

Greets,

Richard


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Barrie Ellis" <barrie.ellis at oneswitch.org.uk>
To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2005 9:24 AM
Subject: [games_access] Accessible Pinball


> "The Unique Design Challenge of Pinball Simulations" is an interesting 
> article (http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20051003/adams_01.shtml). 
> Pinball Simulations seem like one of the most obvious genres of games that 
> can be made highly accessible for many disabled gamers. Off the top of my 
> head:
>
> 1. Game speed control. From VERY slow to how ever fast the designer 
> wishes.
> 2. User-definable controls with the ability to mask multiple buttons to a 
> single control. There's no reason why START, the plunger, LEFT flipper and 
> RIGHT flipper couldn't all be operated by a single button.
> 3. Gap adjustment for how widely the flippers are spaced apart. Or 
> alternatively, bounce pins for the gutters (not sure on the terms, but 
> something to help stop the ball going out of play so easily).
> 4. 3D sound that can be exagerated to aid partially sighted/blind gamers.
> 5. Simple, clear menus that can be spoken.
> 6. Simplified graphics modes. E.g. just the outlines of the playing field. 
> Perhaps with a line thickness control.
> 7. Variety of viewing angles, including one that tracks the ball at 
> various overhead distances.
> 8. Wide difficulty level settings (choice of balls, ease of play).
>
>
> As for the Cafe Press idea - who designed the AudioGames logo? Might they 
> be able to come up with something that catches all? Might be an idea to 
> use something including the blue badge symbol, as it's so well known 
> around the world.
>
> Halloween Monday sounds good to me Michelle.
>
> Barrie
> www.OneSwitch.org.uk
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: <hinn at uiuc.edu>
> To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
> Sent: Monday, October 24, 2005 9:39 PM
> Subject: Re: [games_access] Ernest Adams mentionsaccessibility issues in 
> article
>
>
>> Nice!!! Thanks, Reid, for following up with him about that --
>> nice, honest response from Ernest.
>>
>> Yes GDC06! Speaking of...we need to start meeting again
>> regularly so that we can get everything planned out now that
>> we're officially on the program. :) More details coming
>> soon -- How about starting up again monday, oct 31 (yep,
>> halloween!) at 12noon (new york time)/11am (chicago time)?
>>
>> T-shirts and mugs...not a bad idea. Anyone have some cool
>> logo ideas for a cafepress store?
>>
>> Michelle
>>
>> ---- Original message ----
>>>Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 15:27:27 -0500
>>>From: Reid Kimball <rkimball at gmail.com>
>>>Subject: [games_access] Ernest Adams mentions accessibility
>> issues in article
>>>To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
>> <games_access at igda.org>
>>>
>>>http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20051003/adams_01.shtml
>>>
>>>I'm glad he admitted he didn't know about the issues at
>> first, which
>>>kept him from writing about it in his 1st publication of
>> the Bill of
>>>Player's Rights. We still have much work to do I guess and
>> GDC '06
>>>will be big for us to get the word out. I'm thinking t-
>> shirts, coffee
>>>mugs, hired entertainers! Well, maybe not...
>>>
>>>Also, my independent captioning group is now working on
>> Quake4. Our
>>>project will be called, (drum roll please...) Quake4[CC],
>> *ding!*
>>>
>>>-Reid
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>games_access mailing list
>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>> _______________________________________________
>> games_access mailing list
>> games_access at igda.org
>> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>
>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access 



From rkimball at gmail.com  Wed Oct 26 00:06:04 2005
From: rkimball at gmail.com (Reid Kimball)
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 23:06:04 -0500
Subject: [games_access] "Top 10" list for GDC
In-Reply-To: <6ee8c031.50e1a963.db93100@expms2.cites.uiuc.edu>
References: <6ee8c031.50e1a963.db93100@expms2.cites.uiuc.edu>
Message-ID: <a6673b8d0510252106r73ca2e9ex7ff001193a83c16c@mail.gmail.com>

I may be insensitive here but I think some are going a little too far
with our "accessibility for all, in all media" mantra. I suggest we
focus on games instead. I don't think we should become experts in how
to make a piece of paper accessible. People with vision impairments
typically carry tools with them to help cope with the world around
them, like a magnifying glass, in addition to glasses, I would think.
I wear contacts/glasses, does that mean I demand that all road signs
have fonts in hundreds of feet in size so my less than 20/20 vision
can read them? Let's focus on getting our information out there about
how to develop the tools gamers can use that help them play games.
Each accessiblity feature will become the canes, glasses, and ramps
that help disabled gamers play more, let's not let the accessiblity
issues of a bookmark or website or survey get in the way of us
educating developers.

-Reid

On 10/25/05, hinn at uiuc.edu <hinn at uiuc.edu> wrote:
> thanks, tim, for this!
>
> this will be linked from the sig gdc roundtable info on the
> gdc website so that people can watch and participate in the
> discussion about the top ten if they like before and after
> the gdc!
>
> wiki's = fun! :)
>
> michelle
>
> ---- Original message ----
> >Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 09:55:53 -0500
> >From: Tim Chase <agdev at thechases.com>
> >Subject: [games_access] "Top 10" list for GDC
> >To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
> <games_access at igda.org>
> >
> >I've updated the "Top 10" page with what I feel to be a good
> >list, though as usual, comments from the peanut gallery are
> >always welcome :)
> >
> >You should be able to find the online copy at
> >
> >http://www.igda.org/wiki/index.php/Top_Ten
> >
> >but for you who are impatient like myself:
> >
> >    1. allow all controls (mouse, keyboard, gamepad)
> >       to be remapped
> >    2. add closed-captioning for all dialog and important
> >       sound-effects
> >    3. provide help files in an accessible format
> >       (HTML or plain-text)
> >    4. provide variable degrees of aiming
> >       assistance/auto-targeting
> >    5. provide a broad range of difficulty levels from
> >       incredibly simple to difficult
> >    6. make interface fonts scalable
> >    7. allow for high-contrast color schemes
> >    8. add audio tags to all significant elements (actors,
> >       doors, items, resulting actions, etc) in true
> >       spatial 3D audio
> >    9. allow for time-scaling
> >   10. one more idea here
> >
> >I'm still looking for a good candidate for #10, my first
> though
> >is to make it something like "get out there and do what you
> can
> >from this list to make a difference".  A list of ideas is
> nice,
> >but not doing any of them fails to benefit anybody.
> >
> >Additionally, I'm taking suggestions for the format in
> which to
> >put it.  A little off-list dialog with Michelle seemed to
> show
> >that while bookmarks are nice, fitting all these ideas onto
> a
> >bookmark requires a fairly small font.  Don't want to make
> our
> >"how to be more accessible" list hard on those with poor
> eyesight
> >:)  While some of us have minimal problems with 7-point
> font, I'm
> >sure most folks would smack me for trying that stunt.  A
> full
> >8.5"x11" piece of paper was a bit large, hard to fill, and
> kinda
> >unwieldy in general.  My favorite ideas so far are half-
> sheets of
> >paper...either of regular 8.5"x11" or of legal 8.5"x14",
> making
> >the final result 5.5"x8.5" or 7"x8.5".  I like the
> >half-a-regular-sheet for the simplicity, but I like the
> >half-a-legal-sheet for the asthetic dimensions (it looks and
> >feels more like a "reference card" sort of sheet)
> >
> >Comments, suggestions, ideas, etc. are all welcome.  Hey,
> it's a
> >wiki...you can even tweak it yourself :)
> >
> >-tim
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >games_access mailing list
> >games_access at igda.org
> >http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>


From rkimball at gmail.com  Wed Oct 26 00:29:43 2005
From: rkimball at gmail.com (Reid Kimball)
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 23:29:43 -0500
Subject: [games_access] "Top 10" list for GDC
In-Reply-To: <a6673b8d0510252106r73ca2e9ex7ff001193a83c16c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6ee8c031.50e1a963.db93100@expms2.cites.uiuc.edu>
	<a6673b8d0510252106r73ca2e9ex7ff001193a83c16c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a6673b8d0510252129q3583cfa3te4d5c4a26b00d90f@mail.gmail.com>

Number 10 should be something like:

10. Show on your game packaging material that you offer accessibility
features. If you close caption the game, use the [CC] symbol. Specify
whether it is subtitled only, sfx only or both. If you game has other
accessibility features, use icons to indicate their presence. Many
people who have a disability have no way of know if a game will be
playable by them until they buy the game. If it is not playable due to
a lack of accessibility features, they are not able to return the game
and get their money back.

-Reid

On 10/25/05, Reid Kimball <rkimball at gmail.com> wrote:
> I may be insensitive here but I think some are going a little too far
> with our "accessibility for all, in all media" mantra. I suggest we
> focus on games instead. I don't think we should become experts in how
> to make a piece of paper accessible. People with vision impairments
> typically carry tools with them to help cope with the world around
> them, like a magnifying glass, in addition to glasses, I would think.
> I wear contacts/glasses, does that mean I demand that all road signs
> have fonts in hundreds of feet in size so my less than 20/20 vision
> can read them? Let's focus on getting our information out there about
> how to develop the tools gamers can use that help them play games.
> Each accessiblity feature will become the canes, glasses, and ramps
> that help disabled gamers play more, let's not let the accessiblity
> issues of a bookmark or website or survey get in the way of us
> educating developers.
>
> -Reid
>
> On 10/25/05, hinn at uiuc.edu <hinn at uiuc.edu> wrote:
> > thanks, tim, for this!
> >
> > this will be linked from the sig gdc roundtable info on the
> > gdc website so that people can watch and participate in the
> > discussion about the top ten if they like before and after
> > the gdc!
> >
> > wiki's = fun! :)
> >
> > michelle
> >
> > ---- Original message ----
> > >Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 09:55:53 -0500
> > >From: Tim Chase <agdev at thechases.com>
> > >Subject: [games_access] "Top 10" list for GDC
> > >To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
> > <games_access at igda.org>
> > >
> > >I've updated the "Top 10" page with what I feel to be a good
> > >list, though as usual, comments from the peanut gallery are
> > >always welcome :)
> > >
> > >You should be able to find the online copy at
> > >
> > >http://www.igda.org/wiki/index.php/Top_Ten
> > >
> > >but for you who are impatient like myself:
> > >
> > >    1. allow all controls (mouse, keyboard, gamepad)
> > >       to be remapped
> > >    2. add closed-captioning for all dialog and important
> > >       sound-effects
> > >    3. provide help files in an accessible format
> > >       (HTML or plain-text)
> > >    4. provide variable degrees of aiming
> > >       assistance/auto-targeting
> > >    5. provide a broad range of difficulty levels from
> > >       incredibly simple to difficult
> > >    6. make interface fonts scalable
> > >    7. allow for high-contrast color schemes
> > >    8. add audio tags to all significant elements (actors,
> > >       doors, items, resulting actions, etc) in true
> > >       spatial 3D audio
> > >    9. allow for time-scaling
> > >   10. one more idea here
> > >
> > >I'm still looking for a good candidate for #10, my first
> > though
> > >is to make it something like "get out there and do what you
> > can
> > >from this list to make a difference".  A list of ideas is
> > nice,
> > >but not doing any of them fails to benefit anybody.
> > >
> > >Additionally, I'm taking suggestions for the format in
> > which to
> > >put it.  A little off-list dialog with Michelle seemed to
> > show
> > >that while bookmarks are nice, fitting all these ideas onto
> > a
> > >bookmark requires a fairly small font.  Don't want to make
> > our
> > >"how to be more accessible" list hard on those with poor
> > eyesight
> > >:)  While some of us have minimal problems with 7-point
> > font, I'm
> > >sure most folks would smack me for trying that stunt.  A
> > full
> > >8.5"x11" piece of paper was a bit large, hard to fill, and
> > kinda
> > >unwieldy in general.  My favorite ideas so far are half-
> > sheets of
> > >paper...either of regular 8.5"x11" or of legal 8.5"x14",
> > making
> > >the final result 5.5"x8.5" or 7"x8.5".  I like the
> > >half-a-regular-sheet for the simplicity, but I like the
> > >half-a-legal-sheet for the asthetic dimensions (it looks and
> > >feels more like a "reference card" sort of sheet)
> > >
> > >Comments, suggestions, ideas, etc. are all welcome.  Hey,
> > it's a
> > >wiki...you can even tweak it yourself :)
> > >
> > >-tim
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >_______________________________________________
> > >games_access mailing list
> > >games_access at igda.org
> > >http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
> > _______________________________________________
> > games_access mailing list
> > games_access at igda.org
> > http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
> >
>


From agdev at thechases.com  Wed Oct 26 11:40:16 2005
From: agdev at thechases.com (Tim Chase)
Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 10:40:16 -0500
Subject: [games_access] "Top 10" list for GDC
In-Reply-To: <a6673b8d0510252129q3583cfa3te4d5c4a26b00d90f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6ee8c031.50e1a963.db93100@expms2.cites.uiuc.edu>	<a6673b8d0510252106r73ca2e9ex7ff001193a83c16c@mail.gmail.com>
	<a6673b8d0510252129q3583cfa3te4d5c4a26b00d90f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <435FA360.6010401@thechases.com>

> 10. Show on your game packaging material that you offer 
> accessibility features.

Excellent idea.  I've added it to the wiki and will start in on a
print version.  I think I'll go with a half-legal "cheat-sheet"
layout unless anybody has great gripes about it.

-tim

PS:  Michelle, is there access to paper-colors other than white
for legal-sized stock?  And what sort of color printing method
would be used? (wax, dye, standard inkjet, etc)  Printing on
colored paper impacts some methods more than others...wax color
can print nicely on a variety of colored stock, while dyes and
inkjets can bleed the paper-color a bit.





From hinn at uiuc.edu  Wed Oct 26 12:02:02 2005
From: hinn at uiuc.edu (hinn at uiuc.edu)
Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 11:02:02 -0500
Subject: [games_access] "Top 10" list for GDC
Message-ID: <3e99a8d5.515cf180.da2ca00@expms2.cites.uiuc.edu>

hi reid -- i think the main issue was that putting the list 
on a small bookmark was just plain too small -- it didn't 
give us enough room to include the list without it looking 
like that size 2 font medical warnings information text that 
comes with prescriptions that no one bothers to read. so it 
was more of a matter of printing the list in a format that 
was just generally easier to read in a regular size font 
like 10 or 12.

don't worry -- we're not going to become the bookmark 
accessibility sig. :)

michelle

---- Original message ----
>Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 23:06:04 -0500
>From: Reid Kimball <rkimball at gmail.com>  
>Subject: Re: [games_access] "Top 10" list for GDC  
>To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List 
<games_access at igda.org>
>
>I may be insensitive here but I think some are going a 
little too far
>with our "accessibility for all, in all media" mantra. I 
suggest we
>focus on games instead. I don't think we should become 
experts in how
>to make a piece of paper accessible. People with vision 
impairments
>typically carry tools with them to help cope with the world 
around
>them, like a magnifying glass, in addition to glasses, I 
would think.
>I wear contacts/glasses, does that mean I demand that all 
road signs
>have fonts in hundreds of feet in size so my less than 
20/20 vision
>can read them? Let's focus on getting our information out 
there about
>how to develop the tools gamers can use that help them play 
games.
>Each accessiblity feature will become the canes, glasses, 
and ramps
>that help disabled gamers play more, let's not let the 
accessiblity
>issues of a bookmark or website or survey get in the way of 
us
>educating developers.
>
>-Reid
>
>On 10/25/05, hinn at uiuc.edu <hinn at uiuc.edu> wrote:
>> thanks, tim, for this!
>>
>> this will be linked from the sig gdc roundtable info on 
the
>> gdc website so that people can watch and participate in 
the
>> discussion about the top ten if they like before and after
>> the gdc!
>>
>> wiki's = fun! :)
>>
>> michelle
>>
>> ---- Original message ----
>> >Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 09:55:53 -0500
>> >From: Tim Chase <agdev at thechases.com>
>> >Subject: [games_access] "Top 10" list for GDC
>> >To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
>> <games_access at igda.org>
>> >
>> >I've updated the "Top 10" page with what I feel to be a 
good
>> >list, though as usual, comments from the peanut gallery 
are
>> >always welcome :)
>> >
>> >You should be able to find the online copy at
>> >
>> >http://www.igda.org/wiki/index.php/Top_Ten
>> >
>> >but for you who are impatient like myself:
>> >
>> >    1. allow all controls (mouse, keyboard, gamepad)
>> >       to be remapped
>> >    2. add closed-captioning for all dialog and important
>> >       sound-effects
>> >    3. provide help files in an accessible format
>> >       (HTML or plain-text)
>> >    4. provide variable degrees of aiming
>> >       assistance/auto-targeting
>> >    5. provide a broad range of difficulty levels from
>> >       incredibly simple to difficult
>> >    6. make interface fonts scalable
>> >    7. allow for high-contrast color schemes
>> >    8. add audio tags to all significant elements 
(actors,
>> >       doors, items, resulting actions, etc) in true
>> >       spatial 3D audio
>> >    9. allow for time-scaling
>> >   10. one more idea here
>> >
>> >I'm still looking for a good candidate for #10, my first
>> though
>> >is to make it something like "get out there and do what 
you
>> can
>> >from this list to make a difference".  A list of ideas is
>> nice,
>> >but not doing any of them fails to benefit anybody.
>> >
>> >Additionally, I'm taking suggestions for the format in
>> which to
>> >put it.  A little off-list dialog with Michelle seemed to
>> show
>> >that while bookmarks are nice, fitting all these ideas 
onto
>> a
>> >bookmark requires a fairly small font.  Don't want to 
make
>> our
>> >"how to be more accessible" list hard on those with poor
>> eyesight
>> >:)  While some of us have minimal problems with 7-point
>> font, I'm
>> >sure most folks would smack me for trying that stunt.  A
>> full
>> >8.5"x11" piece of paper was a bit large, hard to fill, 
and
>> kinda
>> >unwieldy in general.  My favorite ideas so far are half-
>> sheets of
>> >paper...either of regular 8.5"x11" or of legal 8.5"x14",
>> making
>> >the final result 5.5"x8.5" or 7"x8.5".  I like the
>> >half-a-regular-sheet for the simplicity, but I like the
>> >half-a-legal-sheet for the asthetic dimensions (it looks 
and
>> >feels more like a "reference card" sort of sheet)
>> >
>> >Comments, suggestions, ideas, etc. are all welcome.  Hey,
>> it's a
>> >wiki...you can even tweak it yourself :)
>> >
>> >-tim
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >_______________________________________________
>> >games_access mailing list
>> >games_access at igda.org
>> >http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>> _______________________________________________
>> games_access mailing list
>> games_access at igda.org
>> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access


From barrie.ellis at oneswitch.org.uk  Wed Oct 26 08:50:45 2005
From: barrie.ellis at oneswitch.org.uk (Barrie Ellis)
Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 13:50:45 +0100
Subject: [games_access] "Top 10" list number 10
References: <6ee8c031.50e1a963.db93100@expms2.cites.uiuc.edu><a6673b8d0510252106r73ca2e9ex7ff001193a83c16c@mail.gmail.com>
	<a6673b8d0510252129q3583cfa3te4d5c4a26b00d90f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000001c5da5b$c6483ff0$0502a8c0@OneSwitch>

How did we miss your number 10 out, Reid!? Packaging accessibility 
logos/symbols would need some thorough thought as how to standardise and 
best implement. As for the CC symbol, I wonder if it would be good to tie it 
up with the graded accessibility system www.DeafGamers.com use, as they are 
so well established already? I think a catch all "accessibility features in 
this game" logo would be essential too.

As for your thoughts around "accessibility for all, in all media", I 
personally think it right for us to aspire to making things as accessible as 
we can balanced against time constraints, and the value of getting the 
thoughts out there.

The survey is important, but a huge swathe of learning disabled people would 
find it inaccessible due to the language and format used. Perhaps we could 
get an organisation like www.symbolworld.org involved? As to the SIG GA 
web-site, it would definitely benefit from more images, and simpler 
navigation. Time is always an issue though, and I certainly don't want to 
knock anybody's efforts. It's great to have a web-site pulling together such 
diverse work, and it will be great to have any survey out there, promoted 
well.

Cheers,

Barrie
www.OneSwitch.org.uk




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Reid Kimball" <rkimball at gmail.com>
To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2005 5:29 AM
Subject: Re: [games_access] "Top 10" list for GDC


Number 10 should be something like:

10. Show on your game packaging material that you offer accessibility
features. If you close caption the game, use the [CC] symbol. Specify
whether it is subtitled only, sfx only or both. If you game has other
accessibility features, use icons to indicate their presence. Many
people who have a disability have no way of know if a game will be
playable by them until they buy the game. If it is not playable due to
a lack of accessibility features, they are not able to return the game
and get their money back.

-Reid

On 10/25/05, Reid Kimball <rkimball at gmail.com> wrote:
> I may be insensitive here but I think some are going a little too far
> with our "accessibility for all, in all media" mantra. I suggest we
> focus on games instead. I don't think we should become experts in how
> to make a piece of paper accessible. People with vision impairments
> typically carry tools with them to help cope with the world around
> them, like a magnifying glass, in addition to glasses, I would think.
> I wear contacts/glasses, does that mean I demand that all road signs
> have fonts in hundreds of feet in size so my less than 20/20 vision
> can read them? Let's focus on getting our information out there about
> how to develop the tools gamers can use that help them play games.
> Each accessiblity feature will become the canes, glasses, and ramps
> that help disabled gamers play more, let's not let the accessiblity
> issues of a bookmark or website or survey get in the way of us
> educating developers.
>
> -Reid 




From barrie.ellis at oneswitch.org.uk  Wed Oct 26 09:14:06 2005
From: barrie.ellis at oneswitch.org.uk (Barrie Ellis)
Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 14:14:06 +0100
Subject: [games_access] Peanuts from The Peanut Gallery - Top 10
	Accessibility Features List
References: <435E4779.3010102@thechases.com>
Message-ID: <000101c5da5b$c6948b30$0502a8c0@OneSwitch>

Hi Tim,

Good work. A few questions and thoughts:

>    1. allow all controls (mouse, keyboard, gamepad)
> to be remapped

Don't know quite how to word it, but it would also be very helpful if 
multiple functions could be remapped to individual buttons. E.g. with 
pinball, being able to make one button act as both flippers and the plunger 
can be very helpful. Perhaps, "...with the facility to map multiple 
functions to any button if required.".

>    2. add closed-captioning for all dialog and important
> sound-effects
>    3. provide help files in an accessible format
> (HTML or plain-text)

Great, but what about console games? Perhaps on-line, downloadable 
instructions in HTML / plain-text?


>    4. provide variable degrees of aiming
> assistance/auto-targeting

What about making this broader, as this sounds targetted (forgive the pun 
limping away) at FPS. What about simply "provide assist modes or training 
options", as this would cover all.


>    5. provide a broad range of difficulty levels from
> incredibly simple to difficult
>    6. make interface fonts scalable
>    7. allow for high-contrast color schemes
>    8. add audio tags to all significant elements (actors,
> doors, items, resulting actions, etc) in true
> spatial 3D audio


>    9. allow for time-scaling

Not sure what this means. Would this be the same as "Speed Control options"?


>   10. Reid's suggestion of Accessibility symbols/info on packaging and 
> promo web-sites?


As for the format, what about an A4 page split into two halves. One being in 
an Inaccessible format, and the other in a more accessible format?

The inaccessible Top 10 could have a mix of blurred writing, obscure foreign 
text, tiny or squashed/stretched fonts, nasty colour combinations such as 
yellow text on white.

The accessible Top 10 could be clear text (e.g. Arial font size 12 or 
bigger), black on white, with a web-link for the Top 10 list in greater 
detail, with a symbol / photo or two to emphasise what the list is about?

A4 would be easy to photocopy/print out from hard copies distributed at GDC, 
but I think we should also get an version on line that people can spread by 
downloading, e-mailing, and printing straight out.

Cheers,

Barrie
www.OneSwitch.org.uk







From agdev at thechases.com  Wed Oct 26 15:02:16 2005
From: agdev at thechases.com (Tim Chase)
Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 14:02:16 -0500
Subject: [games_access] Peanuts from The Peanut Gallery - Top
	10	Accessibility Features List
In-Reply-To: <000101c5da5b$c6948b30$0502a8c0@OneSwitch>
References: <435E4779.3010102@thechases.com>
	<000101c5da5b$c6948b30$0502a8c0@OneSwitch>
Message-ID: <435FD2B8.8010700@thechases.com>

Barrie,

It's a good thing I like peanuts :*)

> Don't know quite how to word it, but it would also be very 
> helpful if multiple functions could be remapped to individual
> buttons. E.g. with pinball, being able to make one button act
> as both flippers and the plunger can be very helpful.
> Perhaps, "...with the facility to map multiple functions to
> any button if required.".

Some games have provided this by accident (a tomb-raider game,
IIRC, where I accidently mapped "action" and "jump" to the same
key which prevented me from instantiating any "actions" because
Lara would jump, misaligning with the target switch when the
"action" triggered).  It usually takes a great deal of intention
to do this (meaningfuly).  Pinball is a great example of an
anomily...most games I've played would be irksome (to say the
least) if things got mapped in pairs.  However, by leaving it as
a generic "allow all controls to be remapped", that can be left open.

> Great, but what about console games? Perhaps on-line, 
> downloadable instructions in HTML / plain-text?

Sounds good to me :)  I'll genericify it a bit to
"documentation", not just "help files"

> What about making this broader, as this sounds targetted 
> (forgive the pun limping away) at FPS. What about simply 
> "provide assist modes or training options", as this would 
> cover all.

Another excellent suggestion.

>> 9. allow for time-scaling
> 
> Not sure what this means. Would this be the same as "Speed 
> Control options"?

yes, that's sorta what I was getting at.  I'll change it to
"Speed Control" unless someone can come up with something that
makes it obvious what we're trying to get at here.  The ability
to speed-up or slow-down the game to adapt to players'
reaction/cognition speeds.

> As for the format, what about an A4 page split into two 
> halves. One being in an Inaccessible format, and the other in 
> a more accessible format?

(the mathematician in me loves the beauty of the A5/A4/A3/...
system)  A5 (half an A4) falls between my two candidates...half a
"regular" and half a "legal" sheet, and would be about the size
I'm aiming for.  I guess it would depend on what support & paper
are available on whatever printer Michelle (or another IGDA rep,
whoever would be printing them) has on hand.  The
accessible/inaccessable is a nice idea.  I think I'd go
front/back rather than side-by-side.  Any other thoughts on this?
Brilliant idea or bogus idea?

> A4 would be easy to photocopy/print out from hard copies 
> distributed at GDC, but I think we should also get an version 
> on line that people can spread by downloading, e-mailing, and 
> printing straight out.

Well, since I'll be shipping the result to Michelle in PDF, it's
easy to post online too :)  Additionally, the raw fodder is on
the wiki.  I can crank out a web-page and/or plain-text version
of matters too if folks wanted to email/link them around.

Thanks again,

-tim