From j.chetwynd at btinternet.com  Sat Dec  1 01:42:10 2007
From: j.chetwynd at btinternet.com (=?UTF-8?B?In46Jycg44GC44KK44GM44Go44GG44GU44GW44GE44G+44GX44Gf?= =?UTF-8?B?44CCIg==?=)
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 06:42:10 +0000
Subject: [games_access] Beyond GDC to Documentation
In-Reply-To: <000501c833bf$d6fd3e30$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
References: <006501c8312b$82902a60$6501a8c0@Inspiron><p0623090ac37223cd87e8@130.126.29.21><a6673b8d0711271244m7b678e79ye94e3a7688c020e2@mail.gmail.com><836db6300711300020r477e9abbldc4a6261effa5686@mail.gmail.com><008701c8337d$ac6de170$6501a8c0@Inspiron><p0623090fc3760c1b8d7d@130.126.29.21><30EC442C-11A9-416C-BE37-0540384E8C0A@pininteractive.com>
	AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIwEKCwA
	<000501c833bf$d6fd3e30$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
Message-ID: <7272F7B6-09E4-4B2F-A546-13DD639D99F2@btinternet.com>

Speaking from my experience, ten years is not long enough.
I can imagine it being another thirty....

Conferences are fine for meeting and greeting, those that came to  
Brighton will know it helps to place a face. They also raise general  
awareness, in an indefinable way. And it's also possible to generate  
business, though usually this is confirmed after the event.

However as I mentioned earlier there is much useful work to be done  
in publishing white papers, standards and guidelines. These are then  
available for interested parties at any time of their choosing. They  
also provide evidence of change, and something to "Shout About".

Indeed if there is some amazing breakthrough a conference is a  
fantastic place to be. But we're not there yet. I took a group of  
adults with learning disabilities to try the pre-alpha eye toy at GDC  
Europe one year, it was way ahead of the field at the time.

My feeling is that too much time is spent chatting and commiserating,  
which could be more usefully directed at conceiving, writing, editing  
and publishing documentation. Well usually I just let it pass ~:"

I happen to be acutely aware this documentation is needed. The web is  
moving from a model of static documents to one more nearly  
identifiable with gaming environments.

regards

Jonathan Chetwynd
Accessibility Consultant on Media Literacy and the Internet



On 1 Dec 2007, at 02:14, Robert Florio wrote:

That's really pathetic the way I think about it Reid 10 years to be
implemented.  No offense I'm just stating what it is.  For those of  
us who
directly are impacted by the lack of design in this industry it is so  
damn
frustrating.  I think we need to reach to a higher power outside that  
will
interact for us.  Maybe we can call Greenpeace get their  
connections?  See
if we can get some of their senators on our side.

Robert

-----Original Message-----
From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access- 
bounces at igda.org]
On Behalf Of Reid Kimball
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 7:05 PM
To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
Subject: Re: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News

Talking to other audiences is fine and valuable but we can't abandon
the main games industry. We've made a lot of progress. You can't see
it right now, but I know we have. People have heard of us, they've
seen our work. That's step one. Steps two and three will come. It
often takes 10 years for an industry to adopt radically new ways of
thinking and unfortunately, accessibility does complicate the design
and tech requirements which requires developers to think differently.

On Nov 30, 2007 3:01 PM, Thomas Westin <thomas at pininteractive.com>  
wrote:
> Hi
>
> just want to add I've started to become a bit cynical about GDC  
> after four
> years of low number of attendees. I'm also disappointed by this,  
> but for
> other reasons than the GDC judges
>
> Let's not forget GDC is just one conference, although the biggest it's
> perhaps not the best - low numbers of attendees is really not our  
> problem,
> it's the industry's problem, that they can't see the importance of
> accessibility for the future of the industry. We're here to help, but
since
> the industry (with a few exceptions/individuals) isn't listening at  
> GDC,
> they do listen elsewhere.
>
> I'd say we should aim for other conferences where people have  
> interest and
> time to listen to us. FuturePlay was a great success; let's focus on
similar
> conferences where we can succeed rather than getting disappointed  
> at GDC.
>
> /Thomas
>
>
>
> 30 nov 2007 kl. 20.00 skrev d. michelle hinn:
>
>
>
> Well, there's lots to do, that's for sure. We also can't forget  
> that some
of
> us (you, me, Richard, others) were hit by the GDC flu and/or had to  
> go to
> hospital (my kidney nightmare) and the selection committee doesn't  
> allow
you
> to petition for that. That DRAMATICALLY impacted a lot of our  
> sessions and
> Idol went way differently than we'd planned for. So we had a lot of  
> bad
luck
> last year that isn't the fault of anyone -- but it did impact how our
> proposals were viewed.
>
>
> As a group, we just need to remember that we are a group. We are a
volunteer
> group. But we are a group and we do a lot! And every time we get a  
> chance
we
> have to remember to talk about the group. Sure, we all have individual
> goals, jobs, lives, etc -- but if we all remembered to mention that  
> we are
a
> part of this group, this movement, I think it would go a long
> way....especially when it's something good! :)
>
>
> Michelle
>
>
> Sounds like a challenge.  It's too bad there was a bad reputation now
about
> our group.  Just feels the fighter though to get the word out about  
> our
> initiatives even more.  Still baffles my mind like game  
> accessibility is
> just not excepted at all by the mainstream game design community.   
> Until
> someday, some mainstream game designers are injured and can't find  
> their
> favorite games anymore and then we'll see.  But apparently the last 20
years
> they've all been pretty invulnerable.
>
> Robert
>
>  ________________________________
>
> From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access- 
> bounces at igda.org]
> On Behalf Of d. michelle hinn
>  Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 12:48 PM
>  To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
>  Subject: Re: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News
>
> Hey,
>
> The only feedback I've gotten was informal from people I know who work
there
> -- the sessions weren't judged on content as much as based on low  
> numbers
of
> attendees and a lot of bad press from GDC07 (many people on the  
> advisory
> boards for each section (audio, design, etc) gossiped, Idol  
> participants
> complained...and, yeah, that web archive was mentioned -- google,  
> etc are
> not our friends). So we live and learn. I'm not going to go into  
> specifics
> because it will hurt us to go into it and we don't need that --  
> There's
too
> much to do and we cannot spend the little time we have until GDC08  
> talking
> about what happened after GDC07. I know I brought it up because,  
> yes, I
was
> angry that morning because the low number of acceptances for this  
> year was
> what I was afraid might happen. But I was also angry because I really,
> really killed myself over the proposals for this year.
>
> Unfortunately, it's not academia so they won't ever provide us with
concrete
> comments or a feedback page about what we could have done
better/differently
> or even what they hated. And it's not a blind review either. Basically
this
> year we need to atone and re-earn respect as a group. >From what I've
heard,
> however, if you have never had a proposal accepted that you turned in,
they
> were EVEN MORE likely to not take a chance on your proposal...so I  
> guess
we
> are lucky that we got three sessions (two were solicited but even  
> those
went
> through a bit of a review as well).
>
> So when you say you can pay your own way...do you mean that you  
> want to
buy
> your own pass?
>
> We'll have accessibility arcade and the meet and greet to show some  
> stuff
at
> -- we won't have as much room but we should have stuff for people  
> to look
at
> and some of the stuff are great conversation starters. So we won't  
> need as
> much this year -- my broken controller (the Quad Controller that  
> has now
> been broken TWICE by airport security so it really looks bad) is  
> quite the
> conversation piece. I think I could have just carried that around at
> FuturePlay all day to get the word out about accessibility! :D
>
> Michelle
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
>
> I'm sorry to hear about the passes. I'll be driving from Reno to SF  
> so I
can
> take all my accessible hardware if need be. (If there is space to demo
> them?)
>
>
>
> Michelle, did they provide us with specific feedback on those  
> proposals?
> what were the main criteria for not accepting them?
>
>
>
>
> I can pay my own way to GDC since I have some money left from my grant
that
> I need to spend before august, after UNR decided not to approve my  
> travel
> request to Futureplay. Besides it's cheap for me to go there anyway.
>
>
>
> Cheers Eelke
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 27/11/2007, Reid Kimball <reid at rbkdesign.com> wrote:
> While this is isn't the ideal situation it's not a total loss for the
>  group and we have to work within our resources to do the best we can.
>
>  If only three of us can come, then I suggest we don't bring any
>  hardware accessories. Instead, let's create flyer's and brochures
>  about the accessories. Maybe even produce videos of people using  
> them.
>
>  I also recommend that because we are a smaller group this year, we  
> try
>  to have personal meetings with game developers to talk about how we
>  can help them.
>
>  -Reid
>
>  On Nov 27, 2007 12:25 PM, d. michelle hinn < hinn at uiuc.edu> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Ok...
>>
>>
>> So remember when I was writing for days straight for all the GDC
> submissions
>> without a whole lot of help? All submissions have been accepted  
>> now so
we
>> have some bad, bad music to face. I never did put up all the final
>> submissions on the WIKI -- I was too tired after the deadline and it
> doesn't
>> matter as much now. I'll get them up for archive reasons.
>>
>>
>> Well...we've been hit by reality this year. I hate to bring this up
again
>> but I feel that I have to -- A lot of public word got out about  
>> our big
>> post-GDC fight last year (it's archived on the net...). I'm not  
>> saying
> that
>> it was any one person or any one comment -- I can't even look at the
> archive
>
>> without beating myself up about it because I felt like I had really,
> really
>> let everyone down. I got the proposals and the passes but I couldn't
make
>> our showing work in the best way possible. I couldn't be everywhere
>> advertising our sessions. I was far from perfect, we were all far  
>> from
>> perfect, we had big dreams but not enough people doing the work. I'm
not
>> saying everything goes back to that but we had a big year last year,
had
>> more than enough passes for everyone...and that was then. It's  
>> hard for
>> me...well, it's very sad for me to realize that we had it so great  
>> last
> year
>> and we didn't recognize it, we didn't have enough real help when push
> came
>> to shove (or suitcase pulling came to suitcase pulling back and forth
> every
>> day to the convention center). All the "should of" "would have"  
>> "could
> have"
>> things are coming back to haunt me. I stopped flogging myself about
this
> a
>> while ago and thought that I had come to peace with it but I realize
now
>> that I still haven't stopped flogging myself about not being
superhuman.
> I
>> know. I know. Stop it.
>>
>>
>> So...we only had one proposal accepted. All the acceptances are in  
>> now.
>> Reid's [cc] poster (downgraded from a 20 minute talk but I think this
> will
>> get more people) submission.
>> [ https://www.cmpevents.com/GD08/a.asp?option=C&V=11&SessID=6456 ]
>>
>>
>> The other two were IGDA solicited (ie, they did not go through the
> system)
>> -- accessibility arcade and the SIG meet and greet. That buys us two
more
>> passes -- one is mine since I'm SIG chair and one was for Eelke  
>> for the
> meet
>> and greet because he helped on the proposals.
>>
>>
>> I'm going to try and talk to everyone I can think of to try and get a
few
>> more passes because one of those is a roundtable and was solicited by
> IGDA
>> (that was NOT in the proposal process) and it's accessibility arcade.
To
>> pull that off, we need more people. I hope that this gets us a few  
>> more
>> passes.
>>
>>
>> The booth is out of question unless we can get some SERIOUS money  
>> FAST.
I
> am
>> trying every angle I can think of but so far no luck. The booth SPACE
> costs
>> $5100 for 10x10 booth -- add on about $3000 more for the "required"
> minimum
>> of stuff we have to provide...no way. IF we get an expo booth it will
get
> us
>> more EXPO passes, which will restrict those with these passes to just
> being
>> able to get into the expo area (no talks, etc). That's the reality.
>>
>>
>> I'm sorry to have to tell you this and I'm sorry for the anger/ 
>> sadness
in
> my
>> tone. We are not going to be able to bring everyone we want to. I  
>> cannot
> say
>> when or if I'll hear if we can get more passes. I know some of you  
>> have
>> already made flight and hotel arrangements. If you are one of these
> people,
>> please check with your airlines, etc for the last date to cancel
without
>> penalty.
>>
>>
>> So three passes...that's it. That's where we are at. I will let you
know
> if
>> the pass situation changes but for now it doesn't look great. We now
have
>> fifteen fewer passes so those of us in attendance are going to  
>> have to
> try
>> and talk our asses off at GDC.
>>
>>
>> Michelle
>> _______________________________________________
>> games_access mailing list
>> games_access at igda.org
>> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>
>>
>  _______________________________________________
>  games_access mailing list
>  games_access at igda.org
>  http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>
>
>
>  --
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
----
>  Eelke Folmer                           Assistant Professor
>  Department of CS&E/171
>  University of Nevada              Reno, Nevada 89557
>  Game interaction design        www.helpyouplay.com
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
----
>
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  games_access mailing list
>
> games_access at igda.org
>  http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  games_access mailing list
>  games_access at igda.org
>  http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>
_______________________________________________
games_access mailing list
games_access at igda.org
http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access

_______________________________________________
games_access mailing list
games_access at igda.org
http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access



From reid at rbkdesign.com  Sat Dec  1 02:26:45 2007
From: reid at rbkdesign.com (Reid Kimball)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 23:26:45 -0800
Subject: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News
In-Reply-To: <3dd2060e0711302009g3635fb8eq5a12c64cb86a5972@mail.gmail.com>
References: <006501c8312b$82902a60$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
	<p0623090ac37223cd87e8@130.126.29.21>
	<a6673b8d0711271244m7b678e79ye94e3a7688c020e2@mail.gmail.com>
	<836db6300711300020r477e9abbldc4a6261effa5686@mail.gmail.com>
	<008701c8337d$ac6de170$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
	<p0623090fc3760c1b8d7d@130.126.29.21>
	<30EC442C-11A9-416C-BE37-0540384E8C0A@pininteractive.com>
	<000301c833bf$4c509a20$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
	<3dd2060e0711302009g3635fb8eq5a12c64cb86a5972@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a6673b8d0711302326j60766890s4e63c3634b5f6bf5@mail.gmail.com>

Please, can we stop with the negative talk about GDC and the game
industry? I work in the game industry for LucasArts. Just last week I
talked to a highly respected programmer and he's 100% behind us and
wants to talk about what we can do to improve accessibility in our
games after our current milestone is finished. There are dozens of
people at LucasArts that support game accessibility. Nintendo totally
gets it, EA Games totally gets it with their Family Play modes in
their sports games. Peter Molyneux gets it, Will Wright... the list
goes on and on.

It's offensive to me when people of this SIG accuse developers of not
caring because WE DO CARE. The last thing you want to do is insult the
people you have to work with. It's the quickest way to turn them away
from our cause.

So, instead of complaining, lets do something about it! First,
everyone here needs to understand what it's like for developers and
why it's so hard for them to adopt accessibility features.

1. Limited financial resources - Games are very expensive to make and
any new features adds to the cost. Before you can add accessibility
features you must have a game and that's where most of the money is
spent first.

2. Limited time - Game development is incredibly complex and hard to
tame. No matter how much extra time gets budgeted into the production
schedule, it always runs out well before all tasks are complete. When
this happens, features get cut in order to save the core of the game
and again, without a game, there can't be any accessibility features.
Because this usually happens so late, there isn't enough time to work
on accessibility features before the game has to ship.

3. Limited information - Even if a developer was pro-active and
scheduled the development of accessibility features into the games'
development schedule, there's still a major lack of knowledge and
tools that enable them to do their job. The SIG has been thinking
about accessibility features for years and we have all the solutions,
but developers don't yet. We need to make ourselves known and readily
available to help them.

What can we do to solve these issues? We need to develop our
relationships with developers and offer our assistance. Our attempts
to work with GarageGames is a good start. When a new game is announced
we should contact them and offer our expertise.

We have GOT to get a website up so that we can communicate our
abilities and expertise to our target audiences (game developers).

But there are technical issues and many of us are volunteers and so
things move very slowly.

Several of us are writing guidelines for implementing certain features
but again, this is a slow process. Others are doing research. Going to
conferences is awesome. Writing articles to Gamasutra is great as
well.

Eitan is right, we have to "sell" our expertise. It's not that
developers don't care, they don't know that they SHOULD care.

-Reid


From eelke.folmer at gmail.com  Sat Dec  1 03:17:57 2007
From: eelke.folmer at gmail.com (Eelke Folmer)
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 00:17:57 -0800
Subject: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News
In-Reply-To: <30EC442C-11A9-416C-BE37-0540384E8C0A@pininteractive.com>
References: <006501c8312b$82902a60$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
	<p0623090ac37223cd87e8@130.126.29.21>
	<a6673b8d0711271244m7b678e79ye94e3a7688c020e2@mail.gmail.com>
	<836db6300711300020r477e9abbldc4a6261effa5686@mail.gmail.com>
	<008701c8337d$ac6de170$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
	<p0623090fc3760c1b8d7d@130.126.29.21>
	<30EC442C-11A9-416C-BE37-0540384E8C0A@pininteractive.com>
Message-ID: <836db6300712010017jfe1a297tfd5fc483093b545d@mail.gmail.com>

With so many interesting talks going on and such expensive prices for
the passes game developers rather go to talks on the geometry shaders
used in Assassin's creed then listen to our talks. Given the current
state of the games industry with the ever increasing budgets and high
risks of failure, many game companies struggle for survival, so there
is really no incentive for them to make games accessible UNLESS we can
sketch out the potential payoffs, which is hard for certain
disabilities. I think 10 or 20 years ago we could have had a bigger
impact since game development didn't involve so much money and risk.
Given that observation, why not focus on those who will shape the
future of the games industry? --> Independent game developers.

Cheers Eelke




On 30/11/2007, Thomas Westin <thomas at pininteractive.com> wrote:
> Hi
>
> just want to add I've started to become a bit cynical about GDC after four
> years of low number of attendees. I'm also disappointed by this, but for
> other reasons than the GDC judges
>
> Let's not forget GDC is just one conference, although the biggest it's
> perhaps not the best - low numbers of attendees is really not our problem,
> it's the industry's problem, that they can't see the importance of
> accessibility for the future of the industry. We're here to help, but since
> the industry (with a few exceptions/individuals) isn't listening at GDC,
> they do listen elsewhere.
>
> I'd say we should aim for other conferences where people have interest and
> time to listen to us. FuturePlay was a great success; let's focus on similar
> conferences where we can succeed rather than getting disappointed at GDC.
>
> /Thomas
>
>
>
> 30 nov 2007 kl. 20.00 skrev d. michelle hinn:
>
>
> Well, there's lots to do, that's for sure. We also can't forget that some of
> us (you, me, Richard, others) were hit by the GDC flu and/or had to go to
> hospital (my kidney nightmare) and the selection committee doesn't allow you
> to petition for that. That DRAMATICALLY impacted a lot of our sessions and
> Idol went way differently than we'd planned for. So we had a lot of bad luck
> last year that isn't the fault of anyone -- but it did impact how our
> proposals were viewed.
>
>
> As a group, we just need to remember that we are a group. We are a volunteer
> group. But we are a group and we do a lot! And every time we get a chance we
> have to remember to talk about the group. Sure, we all have individual
> goals, jobs, lives, etc -- but if we all remembered to mention that we are a
> part of this group, this movement, I think it would go a long
> way....especially when it's something good! :)
>
>
> Michelle
>
>
> Sounds like a challenge.  It's too bad there was a bad reputation now about
> our group.  Just feels the fighter though to get the word out about our
> initiatives even more.  Still baffles my mind like game accessibility is
> just not excepted at all by the mainstream game design community.  Until
> someday, some mainstream game designers are injured and can't find their
> favorite games anymore and then we'll see.  But apparently the last 20 years
> they've all been pretty invulnerable.
>
> Robert
>
>  ________________________________
>
> From: games_access-bounces at igda.org
> [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of d.
> michelle hinn
>  Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 12:48 PM
>  To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
>  Subject: Re: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News
>
> Hey,
>
> The only feedback I've gotten was informal from people I know who work there
> -- the sessions weren't judged on content as much as based on low numbers of
> attendees and a lot of bad press from GDC07 (many people on the advisory
> boards for each section (audio, design, etc) gossiped, Idol participants
> complained...and, yeah, that web archive was mentioned -- google, etc are
> not our friends). So we live and learn. I'm not going to go into specifics
> because it will hurt us to go into it and we don't need that -- There's too
> much to do and we cannot spend the little time we have until GDC08 talking
> about what happened after GDC07. I know I brought it up because, yes, I was
> angry that morning because the low number of acceptances for this year was
> what I was afraid might happen. But I was also angry because I really,
> really killed myself over the proposals for this year.
>
> Unfortunately, it's not academia so they won't ever provide us with concrete
> comments or a feedback page about what we could have done better/differently
> or even what they hated. And it's not a blind review either. Basically this
> year we need to atone and re-earn respect as a group. >From what I've heard,
> however, if you have never had a proposal accepted that you turned in, they
> were EVEN MORE likely to not take a chance on your proposal...so I guess we
> are lucky that we got three sessions (two were solicited but even those went
> through a bit of a review as well).
>
> So when you say you can pay your own way...do you mean that you want to buy
> your own pass?
>
> We'll have accessibility arcade and the meet and greet to show some stuff at
> -- we won't have as much room but we should have stuff for people to look at
> and some of the stuff are great conversation starters. So we won't need as
> much this year -- my broken controller (the Quad Controller that has now
> been broken TWICE by airport security so it really looks bad) is quite the
> conversation piece. I think I could have just carried that around at
> FuturePlay all day to get the word out about accessibility! :D
>
> Michelle
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
>
> I'm sorry to hear about the passes. I'll be driving from Reno to SF so I can
> take all my accessible hardware if need be. (If there is space to demo
> them?)
>
>
>
> Michelle, did they provide us with specific feedback on those proposals?
> what were the main criteria for not accepting them?
>
>
>
>
> I can pay my own way to GDC since I have some money left from my grant that
> I need to spend before august, after UNR decided not to approve my travel
> request to Futureplay. Besides it's cheap for me to go there anyway.
>
>
>
> Cheers Eelke
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 27/11/2007, Reid Kimball <reid at rbkdesign.com> wrote:
> While this is isn't the ideal situation it's not a total loss for the
>  group and we have to work within our resources to do the best we can.
>
>  If only three of us can come, then I suggest we don't bring any
>  hardware accessories. Instead, let's create flyer's and brochures
>  about the accessories. Maybe even produce videos of people using them.
>
>  I also recommend that because we are a smaller group this year, we try
>  to have personal meetings with game developers to talk about how we
>  can help them.
>
>  -Reid
>
>  On Nov 27, 2007 12:25 PM, d. michelle hinn < hinn at uiuc.edu> wrote:
>  >
>  >
>  > Ok...
>  >
>  >
>  > So remember when I was writing for days straight for all the GDC
> submissions
>  > without a whole lot of help? All submissions have been accepted now so we
>  > have some bad, bad music to face. I never did put up all the final
>  > submissions on the WIKI -- I was too tired after the deadline and it
> doesn't
>  > matter as much now. I'll get them up for archive reasons.
>  >
>  >
>  > Well...we've been hit by reality this year. I hate to bring this up again
>  > but I feel that I have to -- A lot of public word got out about our big
>  > post-GDC fight last year (it's archived on the net...). I'm not saying
> that
>  > it was any one person or any one comment -- I can't even look at the
> archive
>
> > without beating myself up about it because I felt like I had really,
> really
>  > let everyone down. I got the proposals and the passes but I couldn't make
>  > our showing work in the best way possible. I couldn't be everywhere
>  > advertising our sessions. I was far from perfect, we were all far from
>  > perfect, we had big dreams but not enough people doing the work. I'm not
>  > saying everything goes back to that but we had a big year last year, had
>  > more than enough passes for everyone...and that was then. It's hard for
>  > me...well, it's very sad for me to realize that we had it so great last
> year
>  > and we didn't recognize it, we didn't have enough real help when push
> came
>  > to shove (or suitcase pulling came to suitcase pulling back and forth
> every
>  > day to the convention center). All the "should of" "would have" "could
> have"
>  > things are coming back to haunt me. I stopped flogging myself about this
> a
>  > while ago and thought that I had come to peace with it but I realize now
>  > that I still haven't stopped flogging myself about not being superhuman.
> I
>  > know. I know. Stop it.
>  >
>  >
>  > So...we only had one proposal accepted. All the acceptances are in now.
>  > Reid's [cc] poster (downgraded from a 20 minute talk but I think this
> will
>  > get more people) submission.
>  > [
> https://www.cmpevents.com/GD08/a.asp?option=C&V=11&SessID=6456
> ]
>  >
>  >
>  > The other two were IGDA solicited (ie, they did not go through the
> system)
>  > -- accessibility arcade and the SIG meet and greet. That buys us two more
>  > passes -- one is mine since I'm SIG chair and one was for Eelke for the
> meet
>  > and greet because he helped on the proposals.
>  >
>  >
>  > I'm going to try and talk to everyone I can think of to try and get a few
>  > more passes because one of those is a roundtable and was solicited by
> IGDA
>  > (that was NOT in the proposal process) and it's accessibility arcade. To
>  > pull that off, we need more people. I hope that this gets us a few more
>  > passes.
>  >
>  >
>  > The booth is out of question unless we can get some SERIOUS money FAST. I
> am
>  > trying every angle I can think of but so far no luck. The booth SPACE
> costs
>  > $5100 for 10x10 booth -- add on about $3000 more for the "required"
> minimum
>  > of stuff we have to provide...no way. IF we get an expo booth it will get
> us
>  > more EXPO passes, which will restrict those with these passes to just
> being
>  > able to get into the expo area (no talks, etc). That's the reality.
>  >
>  >
>  > I'm sorry to have to tell you this and I'm sorry for the anger/sadness in
> my
> > tone. We are not going to be able to bring everyone we want to. I cannot
> say
>  > when or if I'll hear if we can get more passes. I know some of you have
>  > already made flight and hotel arrangements. If you are one of these
> people,
>  > please check with your airlines, etc for the last date to cancel without
>  > penalty.
>  >
>  >
>  > So three passes...that's it. That's where we are at. I will let you know
> if
>  > the pass situation changes but for now it doesn't look great. We now have
>  > fifteen fewer passes so those of us in attendance are going to have to
> try
>  > and talk our asses off at GDC.
>  >
>  >
>  > Michelle
>  > _______________________________________________
>  > games_access mailing list
>  > games_access at igda.org
>  > http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>  >
>  >
>  _______________________________________________
>  games_access mailing list
>  games_access at igda.org
>  http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>
>
>
>  --
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>  Eelke Folmer                           Assistant Professor
>  Department of CS&E/171
>  University of Nevada              Reno, Nevada 89557
>  Game interaction design        www.helpyouplay.com
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  games_access mailing list
>
> games_access at igda.org
>  http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  games_access mailing list
>  games_access at igda.org
>  http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>


-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eelke Folmer                           Assistant Professor
Department of CS&E/171
University of Nevada              Reno, Nevada 89557
Game interaction design        www.helpyouplay.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------------


From barrie.ellis at oneswitch.org.uk  Sat Dec  1 04:02:58 2007
From: barrie.ellis at oneswitch.org.uk (Barrie Ellis)
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 09:02:58 -0000
Subject: [games_access] GDC - more positive...
Message-ID: <04af01c833f8$f856c040$0202a8c0@oneswitch>

Agreed! I contacted Bizarre Creations recently about adding accessibility
features to Project Gotham Racing, a bit too late really...

----------------------------------- 
Would you please consider the following for various disabled gamers?
Fully reconfigurable controls - that even allows for the more simple Xbox
arcade stick to work with your game.
A few ordinary cars that aren't too fast.
A quick start option from the go.
An oval test track.

Here's the reply from Sarah Chudley, Bizarre's commercial director:
--------------------------------
Hi Barrie,

Sorry about the delay in getting back to you - this has been passed over to
me to chase up.

I'm currently investigating if anything can be done in terms of PGR4 or The
Club, which is nearly finished, but we're also thinking about these points
for the future.

So leave it with me and I'll hope to be back to you shortly.

All the best, and thanks for the mail,

Sarah
---------------------------------
Embarrasingly for me - this is the first company I've contacted, beyond Sony
and the umbrella groups. Seems pretty positive. Let's keep building, and
waving the IGDA GASIG flag - and let's keep contacting companies with
specific recommendations that aren't too scary to implement. Foremostly -
let's keep things easy to understand for people that this stuff is still
brand new to.

I don't think it will be 10 years before a mainstream game has accessibility
features, because there's already games out there with them. Getting some
kind of standards going - maybe.... Let's make it quicker though if we can!

Barrie
www.OneSwitch.org.uk




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Reid Kimball" <reid at rbkdesign.com>
To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 7:26 AM
Subject: Re: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News


> Please, can we stop with the negative talk about GDC and the game
> industry? I work in the game industry for LucasArts. Just last week I
> talked to a highly respected programmer and he's 100% behind us and
> wants to talk about what we can do to improve accessibility in our
> games after our current milestone is finished. There are dozens of
> people at LucasArts that support game accessibility. Nintendo totally
> gets it, EA Games totally gets it with their Family Play modes in
> their sports games. Peter Molyneux gets it, Will Wright... the list
> goes on and on.
>
> It's offensive to me when people of this SIG accuse developers of not
> caring because WE DO CARE. The last thing you want to do is insult the
> people you have to work with. It's the quickest way to turn them away
> from our cause.
>
> So, instead of complaining, lets do something about it! First,
> everyone here needs to understand what it's like for developers and
> why it's so hard for them to adopt accessibility features.
>
> 1. Limited financial resources - Games are very expensive to make and
> any new features adds to the cost. Before you can add accessibility
> features you must have a game and that's where most of the money is
> spent first.
>
> 2. Limited time - Game development is incredibly complex and hard to
> tame. No matter how much extra time gets budgeted into the production
> schedule, it always runs out well before all tasks are complete. When
> this happens, features get cut in order to save the core of the game
> and again, without a game, there can't be any accessibility features.
> Because this usually happens so late, there isn't enough time to work
> on accessibility features before the game has to ship.
>
> 3. Limited information - Even if a developer was pro-active and
> scheduled the development of accessibility features into the games'
> development schedule, there's still a major lack of knowledge and
> tools that enable them to do their job. The SIG has been thinking
> about accessibility features for years and we have all the solutions,
> but developers don't yet. We need to make ourselves known and readily
> available to help them.
>
> What can we do to solve these issues? We need to develop our
> relationships with developers and offer our assistance. Our attempts
> to work with GarageGames is a good start. When a new game is announced
> we should contact them and offer our expertise.
>
> We have GOT to get a website up so that we can communicate our
> abilities and expertise to our target audiences (game developers).
>
> But there are technical issues and many of us are volunteers and so
> things move very slowly.
>
> Several of us are writing guidelines for implementing certain features
> but again, this is a slow process. Others are doing research. Going to
> conferences is awesome. Writing articles to Gamasutra is great as
> well.
>
> Eitan is right, we have to "sell" our expertise. It's not that
> developers don't care, they don't know that they SHOULD care.
>
> -Reid
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access





From barrie.ellis at oneswitch.org.uk  Sat Dec  1 09:11:06 2007
From: barrie.ellis at oneswitch.org.uk (Barrie Ellis)
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 14:11:06 -0000
Subject: [games_access] GDC 2008 - not so bad
References: <006501c8312b$82902a60$6501a8c0@Inspiron><p0623090ac37223cd87e8@130.126.29.21><a6673b8d0711271244m7b678e79ye94e3a7688c020e2@mail.gmail.com><836db6300711300020r477e9abbldc4a6261effa5686@mail.gmail.com><008701c8337d$ac6de170$6501a8c0@Inspiron><p0623090fc3760c1b8d7d@130.126.29.21><30EC442C-11A9-416C-BE37-0540384E8C0A@pininteractive.com>
	<836db6300712010017jfe1a297tfd5fc483093b545d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <051a01c83424$041ebf10$0202a8c0@oneswitch>

Certainly, approaching indie developers has been the most successful so far. 
Still getting fantastic support from Retro Remakes:

www.retroremakes.com

We can still do much to make things easier for these people, which could 
bleed into people getting mainstream gaming jobs.

Barrie

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Eelke Folmer" <eelke.folmer at gmail.com>
To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 8:17 AM
Subject: Re: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News


> With so many interesting talks going on and such expensive prices for
> the passes game developers rather go to talks on the geometry shaders
> used in Assassin's creed then listen to our talks. Given the current
> state of the games industry with the ever increasing budgets and high
> risks of failure, many game companies struggle for survival, so there
> is really no incentive for them to make games accessible UNLESS we can
> sketch out the potential payoffs, which is hard for certain
> disabilities. I think 10 or 20 years ago we could have had a bigger
> impact since game development didn't involve so much money and risk.
> Given that observation, why not focus on those who will shape the
> future of the games industry? --> Independent game developers.
>
> Cheers Eelke
>
>
>
>
> On 30/11/2007, Thomas Westin <thomas at pininteractive.com> wrote:
>> Hi
>>
>> just want to add I've started to become a bit cynical about GDC after 
>> four
>> years of low number of attendees. I'm also disappointed by this, but for
>> other reasons than the GDC judges
>>
>> Let's not forget GDC is just one conference, although the biggest it's
>> perhaps not the best - low numbers of attendees is really not our 
>> problem,
>> it's the industry's problem, that they can't see the importance of
>> accessibility for the future of the industry. We're here to help, but 
>> since
>> the industry (with a few exceptions/individuals) isn't listening at GDC,
>> they do listen elsewhere.
>>
>> I'd say we should aim for other conferences where people have interest 
>> and
>> time to listen to us. FuturePlay was a great success; let's focus on 
>> similar
>> conferences where we can succeed rather than getting disappointed at GDC.
>>
>> /Thomas
>>
>>
>>
>> 30 nov 2007 kl. 20.00 skrev d. michelle hinn:
>>
>>
>> Well, there's lots to do, that's for sure. We also can't forget that some 
>> of
>> us (you, me, Richard, others) were hit by the GDC flu and/or had to go to
>> hospital (my kidney nightmare) and the selection committee doesn't allow 
>> you
>> to petition for that. That DRAMATICALLY impacted a lot of our sessions 
>> and
>> Idol went way differently than we'd planned for. So we had a lot of bad 
>> luck
>> last year that isn't the fault of anyone -- but it did impact how our
>> proposals were viewed.
>>
>>
>> As a group, we just need to remember that we are a group. We are a 
>> volunteer
>> group. But we are a group and we do a lot! And every time we get a chance 
>> we
>> have to remember to talk about the group. Sure, we all have individual
>> goals, jobs, lives, etc -- but if we all remembered to mention that we 
>> are a
>> part of this group, this movement, I think it would go a long
>> way....especially when it's something good! :)
>>
>>
>> Michelle
>>
>>
>> Sounds like a challenge.  It's too bad there was a bad reputation now 
>> about
>> our group.  Just feels the fighter though to get the word out about our
>> initiatives even more.  Still baffles my mind like game accessibility is
>> just not excepted at all by the mainstream game design community.  Until
>> someday, some mainstream game designers are injured and can't find their
>> favorite games anymore and then we'll see.  But apparently the last 20 
>> years
>> they've all been pretty invulnerable.
>>
>> Robert
>>
>>  ________________________________
>>
>> From: games_access-bounces at igda.org
>> [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of d.
>> michelle hinn
>>  Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 12:48 PM
>>  To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
>>  Subject: Re: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News
>>
>> Hey,
>>
>> The only feedback I've gotten was informal from people I know who work 
>> there
>> -- the sessions weren't judged on content as much as based on low numbers 
>> of
>> attendees and a lot of bad press from GDC07 (many people on the advisory
>> boards for each section (audio, design, etc) gossiped, Idol participants
>> complained...and, yeah, that web archive was mentioned -- google, etc are
>> not our friends). So we live and learn. I'm not going to go into 
>> specifics
>> because it will hurt us to go into it and we don't need that -- There's 
>> too
>> much to do and we cannot spend the little time we have until GDC08 
>> talking
>> about what happened after GDC07. I know I brought it up because, yes, I 
>> was
>> angry that morning because the low number of acceptances for this year 
>> was
>> what I was afraid might happen. But I was also angry because I really,
>> really killed myself over the proposals for this year.
>>
>> Unfortunately, it's not academia so they won't ever provide us with 
>> concrete
>> comments or a feedback page about what we could have done 
>> better/differently
>> or even what they hated. And it's not a blind review either. Basically 
>> this
>> year we need to atone and re-earn respect as a group. >From what I've 
>> heard,
>> however, if you have never had a proposal accepted that you turned in, 
>> they
>> were EVEN MORE likely to not take a chance on your proposal...so I guess 
>> we
>> are lucky that we got three sessions (two were solicited but even those 
>> went
>> through a bit of a review as well).
>>
>> So when you say you can pay your own way...do you mean that you want to 
>> buy
>> your own pass?
>>
>> We'll have accessibility arcade and the meet and greet to show some stuff 
>> at
>> -- we won't have as much room but we should have stuff for people to look 
>> at
>> and some of the stuff are great conversation starters. So we won't need 
>> as
>> much this year -- my broken controller (the Quad Controller that has now
>> been broken TWICE by airport security so it really looks bad) is quite 
>> the
>> conversation piece. I think I could have just carried that around at
>> FuturePlay all day to get the word out about accessibility! :D
>>
>> Michelle
>>
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm sorry to hear about the passes. I'll be driving from Reno to SF so I 
>> can
>> take all my accessible hardware if need be. (If there is space to demo
>> them?)
>>
>>
>>
>> Michelle, did they provide us with specific feedback on those proposals?
>> what were the main criteria for not accepting them?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I can pay my own way to GDC since I have some money left from my grant 
>> that
>> I need to spend before august, after UNR decided not to approve my travel
>> request to Futureplay. Besides it's cheap for me to go there anyway.
>>
>>
>>
>> Cheers Eelke
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 27/11/2007, Reid Kimball <reid at rbkdesign.com> wrote:
>> While this is isn't the ideal situation it's not a total loss for the
>>  group and we have to work within our resources to do the best we can.
>>
>>  If only three of us can come, then I suggest we don't bring any
>>  hardware accessories. Instead, let's create flyer's and brochures
>>  about the accessories. Maybe even produce videos of people using them.
>>
>>  I also recommend that because we are a smaller group this year, we try
>>  to have personal meetings with game developers to talk about how we
>>  can help them.
>>
>>  -Reid
>>
>>  On Nov 27, 2007 12:25 PM, d. michelle hinn < hinn at uiuc.edu> wrote:
>>  >
>>  >
>>  > Ok...
>>  >
>>  >
>>  > So remember when I was writing for days straight for all the GDC
>> submissions
>>  > without a whole lot of help? All submissions have been accepted now so 
>> we
>>  > have some bad, bad music to face. I never did put up all the final
>>  > submissions on the WIKI -- I was too tired after the deadline and it
>> doesn't
>>  > matter as much now. I'll get them up for archive reasons.
>>  >
>>  >
>>  > Well...we've been hit by reality this year. I hate to bring this up 
>> again
>>  > but I feel that I have to -- A lot of public word got out about our 
>> big
>>  > post-GDC fight last year (it's archived on the net...). I'm not saying
>> that
>>  > it was any one person or any one comment -- I can't even look at the
>> archive
>>
>> > without beating myself up about it because I felt like I had really,
>> really
>>  > let everyone down. I got the proposals and the passes but I couldn't 
>> make
>>  > our showing work in the best way possible. I couldn't be everywhere
>>  > advertising our sessions. I was far from perfect, we were all far from
>>  > perfect, we had big dreams but not enough people doing the work. I'm 
>> not
>>  > saying everything goes back to that but we had a big year last year, 
>> had
>>  > more than enough passes for everyone...and that was then. It's hard 
>> for
>>  > me...well, it's very sad for me to realize that we had it so great 
>> last
>> year
>>  > and we didn't recognize it, we didn't have enough real help when push
>> came
>>  > to shove (or suitcase pulling came to suitcase pulling back and forth
>> every
>>  > day to the convention center). All the "should of" "would have" "could
>> have"
>>  > things are coming back to haunt me. I stopped flogging myself about 
>> this
>> a
>>  > while ago and thought that I had come to peace with it but I realize 
>> now
>>  > that I still haven't stopped flogging myself about not being 
>> superhuman.
>> I
>>  > know. I know. Stop it.
>>  >
>>  >
>>  > So...we only had one proposal accepted. All the acceptances are in 
>> now.
>>  > Reid's [cc] poster (downgraded from a 20 minute talk but I think this
>> will
>>  > get more people) submission.
>>  > [
>> https://www.cmpevents.com/GD08/a.asp?option=C&V=11&SessID=6456
>> ]
>>  >
>>  >
>>  > The other two were IGDA solicited (ie, they did not go through the
>> system)
>>  > -- accessibility arcade and the SIG meet and greet. That buys us two 
>> more
>>  > passes -- one is mine since I'm SIG chair and one was for Eelke for 
>> the
>> meet
>>  > and greet because he helped on the proposals.
>>  >
>>  >
>>  > I'm going to try and talk to everyone I can think of to try and get a 
>> few
>>  > more passes because one of those is a roundtable and was solicited by
>> IGDA
>>  > (that was NOT in the proposal process) and it's accessibility arcade. 
>> To
>>  > pull that off, we need more people. I hope that this gets us a few 
>> more
>>  > passes.
>>  >
>>  >
>>  > The booth is out of question unless we can get some SERIOUS money 
>> FAST. I
>> am
>>  > trying every angle I can think of but so far no luck. The booth SPACE
>> costs
>>  > $5100 for 10x10 booth -- add on about $3000 more for the "required"
>> minimum
>>  > of stuff we have to provide...no way. IF we get an expo booth it will 
>> get
>> us
>>  > more EXPO passes, which will restrict those with these passes to just
>> being
>>  > able to get into the expo area (no talks, etc). That's the reality.
>>  >
>>  >
>>  > I'm sorry to have to tell you this and I'm sorry for the anger/sadness 
>> in
>> my
>> > tone. We are not going to be able to bring everyone we want to. I 
>> > cannot
>> say
>>  > when or if I'll hear if we can get more passes. I know some of you 
>> have
>>  > already made flight and hotel arrangements. If you are one of these
>> people,
>>  > please check with your airlines, etc for the last date to cancel 
>> without
>>  > penalty.
>>  >
>>  >
>>  > So three passes...that's it. That's where we are at. I will let you 
>> know
>> if
>>  > the pass situation changes but for now it doesn't look great. We now 
>> have
>>  > fifteen fewer passes so those of us in attendance are going to have to
>> try
>>  > and talk our asses off at GDC.
>>  >
>>  >
>>  > Michelle
>>  > _______________________________________________
>>  > games_access mailing list
>>  > games_access at igda.org
>>  > http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>  >
>>  >
>>  _______________________________________________
>>  games_access mailing list
>>  games_access at igda.org
>>  http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  --
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>  Eelke Folmer                           Assistant Professor
>>  Department of CS&E/171
>>  University of Nevada              Reno, Nevada 89557
>>  Game interaction design        www.helpyouplay.com
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>  _______________________________________________
>>  games_access mailing list
>>
>> games_access at igda.org
>>  http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>
>>
>>
>>  _______________________________________________
>>  games_access mailing list
>>  games_access at igda.org
>>  http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> games_access mailing list
>> games_access at igda.org
>> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> games_access mailing list
>> games_access at igda.org
>> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>
>>
>
>
> -- 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Eelke Folmer                           Assistant Professor
> Department of CS&E/171
> University of Nevada              Reno, Nevada 89557
> Game interaction design        www.helpyouplay.com
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access 





From jbannick at 7128.com  Sat Dec  1 11:05:12 2007
From: jbannick at 7128.com (John Bannick)
Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2007 11:05:12 -0500
Subject: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News
In-Reply-To: <a6673b8d0711302326j60766890s4e63c3634b5f6bf5@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <006501c8312b$82902a60$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
	<p0623090ac37223cd87e8@130.126.29.21>
	<a6673b8d0711271244m7b678e79ye94e3a7688c020e2@mail.gmail.com>
	<836db6300711300020r477e9abbldc4a6261effa5686@mail.gmail.com>
	<008701c8337d$ac6de170$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
	<p0623090fc3760c1b8d7d@130.126.29.21>
	<30EC442C-11A9-416C-BE37-0540384E8C0A@pininteractive.com>
	<000301c833bf$4c509a20$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
	<3dd2060e0711302009g3635fb8eq5a12c64cb86a5972@mail.gmail.com>
	<a6673b8d0711302326j60766890s4e63c3634b5f6bf5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.2.20071201103852.01d66f38@enigami.com>

Reid is right.

There are developers right now who want their work to be accessible.

This SIG could right now facilitate that by:

1. Providing, distributing, and publicizing a concise, specific set of 
functional criteria that define what means accessible.
2. Compiling, publishing, and publicizing an annual list of which companies 
and games meet those criteria.
3. Maintaining a forum (The currently rather drifting Game Accessibility 
Project comes to mind) where developers can go for immediate help.

I'm a developer of games that are accessible.
Have shipped 22 different revenue-generating products in a wide variety of 
vertical markets in the last 30 years.
Am neither stupid nor lazy.
And don't see any of the 3 above items.

None of the 3 items should take long to build as a first cut.

And if not from this SIG, then from where?

John Bannick
CTO
7-128 Software


At 02:26 AM 12/1/2007, you wrote:
>Please, can we stop with the negative talk about GDC and the game
>industry? I work in the game industry for LucasArts. Just last week I
>talked to a highly respected programmer and he's 100% behind us and
>wants to talk about what we can do to improve accessibility in our
>games after our current milestone is finished. There are dozens of
>people at LucasArts that support game accessibility. Nintendo totally
>gets it, EA Games totally gets it with their Family Play modes in
>their sports games. Peter Molyneux gets it, Will Wright... the list
>goes on and on.
>
>It's offensive to me when people of this SIG accuse developers of not
>caring because WE DO CARE. The last thing you want to do is insult the
>people you have to work with. It's the quickest way to turn them away
>from our cause.
>
>So, instead of complaining, lets do something about it! First,
>everyone here needs to understand what it's like for developers and
>why it's so hard for them to adopt accessibility features.
>
>1. Limited financial resources - Games are very expensive to make and
>any new features adds to the cost. Before you can add accessibility
>features you must have a game and that's where most of the money is
>spent first.
>
>2. Limited time - Game development is incredibly complex and hard to
>tame. No matter how much extra time gets budgeted into the production
>schedule, it always runs out well before all tasks are complete. When
>this happens, features get cut in order to save the core of the game
>and again, without a game, there can't be any accessibility features.
>Because this usually happens so late, there isn't enough time to work
>on accessibility features before the game has to ship.
>
>3. Limited information - Even if a developer was pro-active and
>scheduled the development of accessibility features into the games'
>development schedule, there's still a major lack of knowledge and
>tools that enable them to do their job. The SIG has been thinking
>about accessibility features for years and we have all the solutions,
>but developers don't yet. We need to make ourselves known and readily
>available to help them.
>
>What can we do to solve these issues? We need to develop our
>relationships with developers and offer our assistance. Our attempts
>to work with GarageGames is a good start. When a new game is announced
>we should contact them and offer our expertise.
>
>We have GOT to get a website up so that we can communicate our
>abilities and expertise to our target audiences (game developers).
>
>But there are technical issues and many of us are volunteers and so
>things move very slowly.
>
>Several of us are writing guidelines for implementing certain features
>but again, this is a slow process. Others are doing research. Going to
>conferences is awesome. Writing articles to Gamasutra is great as
>well.
>
>Eitan is right, we have to "sell" our expertise. It's not that
>developers don't care, they don't know that they SHOULD care.
>
>-Reid
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>
>--
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.11/1161 - Release Date: 
>11/30/2007 12:12 PM



From barrie.ellis at oneswitch.org.uk  Sat Dec  1 11:47:24 2007
From: barrie.ellis at oneswitch.org.uk (Barrie Ellis)
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 16:47:24 -0000
Subject: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News
References: <006501c8312b$82902a60$6501a8c0@Inspiron><p0623090ac37223cd87e8@130.126.29.21><a6673b8d0711271244m7b678e79ye94e3a7688c020e2@mail.gmail.com><836db6300711300020r477e9abbldc4a6261effa5686@mail.gmail.com><008701c8337d$ac6de170$6501a8c0@Inspiron><p0623090fc3760c1b8d7d@130.126.29.21><30EC442C-11A9-416C-BE37-0540384E8C0A@pininteractive.com><000301c833bf$4c509a20$6501a8c0@Inspiron><3dd2060e0711302009g3635fb8eq5a12c64cb86a5972@mail.gmail.com><a6673b8d0711302326j60766890s4e63c3634b5f6bf5@mail.gmail.com>
	<6.1.0.6.2.20071201103852.01d66f38@enigami.com>
Message-ID: <053001c83439$da0092b0$0202a8c0@oneswitch>

A little harsh, John perhaps?

1. Has been covered to various degrees here:

http://www.oneswitch.org.uk/2/ARTICLES/physical-barriers.htm
http://www.ics.forth.gr/hci/ua-games/game-over/
http://www.helpyouplay.com/welcome.html

(and other places too).

2. Is is a good point. But there's so few mainstream developers making 
deliberate accessibity efforts that take into account specific disabilities. 
Here's a list of some:

http://www.oneswitch.org.uk/2/pioneers.htm
http://gameaccessibility.blogspot.com/

3. Forums here:

http://www.game-accessibility.com/forum/
http://www.retroremakes.com/forum2/forumdisplay.php?f=84
http://ablegamers.com/component/option,com_fireboard/Itemid,606/

We need the support of more people though!

Barrie
www.OneSwitch.org.uk
www.igda.org/accessibility

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John Bannick" <jbannick at 7128.com>
To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 4:05 PM
Subject: Re: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News


> Reid is right.
>
> There are developers right now who want their work to be accessible.
>
> This SIG could right now facilitate that by:
>
> 1. Providing, distributing, and publicizing a concise, specific set of 
> functional criteria that define what means accessible.
> 2. Compiling, publishing, and publicizing an annual list of which 
> companies and games meet those criteria.
> 3. Maintaining a forum (The currently rather drifting Game Accessibility 
> Project comes to mind) where developers can go for immediate help.
>
> I'm a developer of games that are accessible.
> Have shipped 22 different revenue-generating products in a wide variety of 
> vertical markets in the last 30 years.
> Am neither stupid nor lazy.
> And don't see any of the 3 above items.
>
> None of the 3 items should take long to build as a first cut.
>
> And if not from this SIG, then from where?
>
> John Bannick
> CTO
> 7-128 Software
>
>
> At 02:26 AM 12/1/2007, you wrote:
>>Please, can we stop with the negative talk about GDC and the game
>>industry? I work in the game industry for LucasArts. Just last week I
>>talked to a highly respected programmer and he's 100% behind us and
>>wants to talk about what we can do to improve accessibility in our
>>games after our current milestone is finished. There are dozens of
>>people at LucasArts that support game accessibility. Nintendo totally
>>gets it, EA Games totally gets it with their Family Play modes in
>>their sports games. Peter Molyneux gets it, Will Wright... the list
>>goes on and on.
>>
>>It's offensive to me when people of this SIG accuse developers of not
>>caring because WE DO CARE. The last thing you want to do is insult the
>>people you have to work with. It's the quickest way to turn them away
>>from our cause.
>>
>>So, instead of complaining, lets do something about it! First,
>>everyone here needs to understand what it's like for developers and
>>why it's so hard for them to adopt accessibility features.
>>
>>1. Limited financial resources - Games are very expensive to make and
>>any new features adds to the cost. Before you can add accessibility
>>features you must have a game and that's where most of the money is
>>spent first.
>>
>>2. Limited time - Game development is incredibly complex and hard to
>>tame. No matter how much extra time gets budgeted into the production
>>schedule, it always runs out well before all tasks are complete. When
>>this happens, features get cut in order to save the core of the game
>>and again, without a game, there can't be any accessibility features.
>>Because this usually happens so late, there isn't enough time to work
>>on accessibility features before the game has to ship.
>>
>>3. Limited information - Even if a developer was pro-active and
>>scheduled the development of accessibility features into the games'
>>development schedule, there's still a major lack of knowledge and
>>tools that enable them to do their job. The SIG has been thinking
>>about accessibility features for years and we have all the solutions,
>>but developers don't yet. We need to make ourselves known and readily
>>available to help them.
>>
>>What can we do to solve these issues? We need to develop our
>>relationships with developers and offer our assistance. Our attempts
>>to work with GarageGames is a good start. When a new game is announced
>>we should contact them and offer our expertise.
>>
>>We have GOT to get a website up so that we can communicate our
>>abilities and expertise to our target audiences (game developers).
>>
>>But there are technical issues and many of us are volunteers and so
>>things move very slowly.
>>
>>Several of us are writing guidelines for implementing certain features
>>but again, this is a slow process. Others are doing research. Going to
>>conferences is awesome. Writing articles to Gamasutra is great as
>>well.
>>
>>Eitan is right, we have to "sell" our expertise. It's not that
>>developers don't care, they don't know that they SHOULD care.
>>
>>-Reid
>>_______________________________________________
>>games_access mailing list
>>games_access at igda.org
>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>
>>
>>--
>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.11/1161 - Release Date: 
>>11/30/2007 12:12 PM
>
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access 





From hinn at uiuc.edu  Sat Dec  1 12:24:07 2007
From: hinn at uiuc.edu (d. michelle hinn)
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 11:24:07 -0600
Subject: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News
In-Reply-To: <6.1.0.6.2.20071201103852.01d66f38@enigami.com>
References: <006501c8312b$82902a60$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
	<p0623090ac37223cd87e8@130.126.29.21>
	<a6673b8d0711271244m7b678e79ye94e3a7688c020e2@mail.gmail.com>
	<836db6300711300020r477e9abbldc4a6261effa5686@mail.gmail.com>
	<008701c8337d$ac6de170$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
	<p0623090fc3760c1b8d7d@130.126.29.21>
	<30EC442C-11A9-416C-BE37-0540384E8C0A@pininteractive.com>
	<000301c833bf$4c509a20$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
	<3dd2060e0711302009g3635fb8eq5a12c64cb86a5972@mail.gmail.com>
	<a6673b8d0711302326j60766890s4e63c3634b5f6bf5@mail.gmail.com>
	<6.1.0.6.2.20071201103852.01d66f38@enigami.com>
Message-ID: <p0623091cc3774402a76e@[130.126.29.21]>

All of the things John mentions are projects we have talked about 
and/or taken passes at (the top ten list from two years ago and now 
the new project that Barrie has started up, etc). Others have brought 
up other ideas that we've either done or attempted and then the 
projects lost momentum. All these things are great but there's a 
problem...these things also take active volunteers in the SIG and 
from that perspective our numbers are low. So we need people who are 
willing to put in the time and may/may not get any reimbursement for 
that time and every project cannot be started and maintained by me.

So instead of continuing to criticize ourselves (I know...I started 
it but I was really mad after killing myself over the proposals at 
deadline), the industry, the GDC etc...who from WITHIN this SIG can 
put in the time needed for these things AND actually follow through? 
No, it's not fair that we aren't in a position to reimburse people 
for time and that won't change in the near future. But it's something 
that will have to change and it will change but we can't just wait 
for that day to come (because it won't come if we don't put in the 
sweat equity now). People need to honestly commit the time and work 
because they believe in making change. Take some of that anger and 
tell me what YOU are willing to do to help us make change. Take 
ownership of something on behalf of the SIG. Ideas are great...but we 
need people who will put in the work so that the "SIG" is able to do 
these things.

So who will join in putting in some volunteer time so that these 
ideas can become reality?

Michelle

>Reid is right.
>
>There are developers right now who want their work to be accessible.
>
>This SIG could right now facilitate that by:
>
>1. Providing, distributing, and publicizing a concise, specific set 
>of functional criteria that define what means accessible.
>2. Compiling, publishing, and publicizing an annual list of which 
>companies and games meet those criteria.
>3. Maintaining a forum (The currently rather drifting Game 
>Accessibility Project comes to mind) where developers can go for 
>immediate help.
>
>I'm a developer of games that are accessible.
>Have shipped 22 different revenue-generating products in a wide 
>variety of vertical markets in the last 30 years.
>Am neither stupid nor lazy.
>And don't see any of the 3 above items.
>
>None of the 3 items should take long to build as a first cut.
>
>And if not from this SIG, then from where?
>
>John Bannick
>CTO
>7-128 Software
>
>
>At 02:26 AM 12/1/2007, you wrote:
>>Please, can we stop with the negative talk about GDC and the game
>>industry? I work in the game industry for LucasArts. Just last week I
>>talked to a highly respected programmer and he's 100% behind us and
>>wants to talk about what we can do to improve accessibility in our
>>games after our current milestone is finished. There are dozens of
>>people at LucasArts that support game accessibility. Nintendo totally
>>gets it, EA Games totally gets it with their Family Play modes in
>>their sports games. Peter Molyneux gets it, Will Wright... the list
>>goes on and on.
>>
>>It's offensive to me when people of this SIG accuse developers of not
>>caring because WE DO CARE. The last thing you want to do is insult the
>>people you have to work with. It's the quickest way to turn them away
>>from our cause.
>>
>>So, instead of complaining, lets do something about it! First,
>>everyone here needs to understand what it's like for developers and
>>why it's so hard for them to adopt accessibility features.
>>
>>1. Limited financial resources - Games are very expensive to make and
>>any new features adds to the cost. Before you can add accessibility
>>features you must have a game and that's where most of the money is
>>spent first.
>>
>>2. Limited time - Game development is incredibly complex and hard to
>>tame. No matter how much extra time gets budgeted into the production
>>schedule, it always runs out well before all tasks are complete. When
>>this happens, features get cut in order to save the core of the game
>>and again, without a game, there can't be any accessibility features.
>>Because this usually happens so late, there isn't enough time to work
>>on accessibility features before the game has to ship.
>>
>>3. Limited information - Even if a developer was pro-active and
>>scheduled the development of accessibility features into the games'
>>development schedule, there's still a major lack of knowledge and
>>tools that enable them to do their job. The SIG has been thinking
>>about accessibility features for years and we have all the solutions,
>>but developers don't yet. We need to make ourselves known and readily
>>available to help them.
>>
>>What can we do to solve these issues? We need to develop our
>>relationships with developers and offer our assistance. Our attempts
>>to work with GarageGames is a good start. When a new game is announced
>>we should contact them and offer our expertise.
>>
>>We have GOT to get a website up so that we can communicate our
>>abilities and expertise to our target audiences (game developers).
>>
>>But there are technical issues and many of us are volunteers and so
>>things move very slowly.
>>
>>Several of us are writing guidelines for implementing certain features
>>but again, this is a slow process. Others are doing research. Going to
>>conferences is awesome. Writing articles to Gamasutra is great as
>>well.
>>
>>Eitan is right, we have to "sell" our expertise. It's not that
>>developers don't care, they don't know that they SHOULD care.
>>
>>-Reid
>>_______________________________________________
>>games_access mailing list
>>games_access at igda.org
>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>
>>
>>--
>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.11/1161 - Release Date: 
>>11/30/2007 12:12 PM
>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access



From hinn at uiuc.edu  Sat Dec  1 12:31:24 2007
From: hinn at uiuc.edu (d. michelle hinn)
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 11:31:24 -0600
Subject: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News
In-Reply-To: <053001c83439$da0092b0$0202a8c0@oneswitch>
References: <006501c8312b$82902a60$6501a8c0@Inspiron><p0623090ac37223cd87e8@130.126.29
	.21><a6673b8d0711271244m7b678e79ye94e3a7688c020e2@mail.gmail.com><836db630
	0711300020r477e9abbldc4a6261effa5686@mail.gmail.com><008701c8337d$ac6de170
	$6501a8c0@Inspiron><p0623090fc3760c1b8d7d@130.126.29.21><30EC442C-11A9-416
	C-BE37-0540384E8C0A@pininteractive.com><000301c833bf$4c509a20$6501a8c0@Ins
	piron><3dd2060e0711302009g3635fb8eq5a12c64cb86a5972@mail.gmail.com><a6673b
	8d0711302326j60766890s4e63c3634b5f6bf5@mail.gmail.com>
	<6.1.0.6.2.20071201103852.01d66f38@enigami.com>
	<053001c83439$da0092b0$0202a8c0@oneswitch>
Message-ID: <p0623091dc3774948e3d7@[130.126.29.21]>

Agreed, Barrie -- we need the support of more PEOPLE WORKING not just 
people saying what needs to be done. It's easy to come up with lists 
and lists of ideas -- we have no shortage of those. We do have a 
severe shortage of people willing to put in their personal time if 
they really do believe in fighting for this issue. I'd like to see 
ideas presented with "and this is what I will do to help get this 
started in the SIG..." or "here's what I just did and I hope SIG 
members can help this grow..." rather than "The SIG Should Do..."

Michelle

>A little harsh, John perhaps?
>
>1. Has been covered to various degrees here:
>
>http://www.oneswitch.org.uk/2/ARTICLES/physical-barriers.htm
>http://www.ics.forth.gr/hci/ua-games/game-over/
>http://www.helpyouplay.com/welcome.html
>
>(and other places too).
>
>2. Is is a good point. But there's so few mainstream developers 
>making deliberate accessibity efforts that take into account 
>specific disabilities. Here's a list of some:
>
>http://www.oneswitch.org.uk/2/pioneers.htm
>http://gameaccessibility.blogspot.com/
>
>3. Forums here:
>
>http://www.game-accessibility.com/forum/
>http://www.retroremakes.com/forum2/forumdisplay.php?f=84
>http://ablegamers.com/component/option,com_fireboard/Itemid,606/
>
>We need the support of more people though!
>
>Barrie
>www.OneSwitch.org.uk
>www.igda.org/accessibility
>
>----- Original Message ----- From: "John Bannick" <jbannick at 7128.com>
>To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
>Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 4:05 PM
>Subject: Re: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News
>
>>Reid is right.
>>
>>There are developers right now who want their work to be accessible.
>>
>>This SIG could right now facilitate that by:
>>
>>1. Providing, distributing, and publicizing a concise, specific set 
>>of functional criteria that define what means accessible.
>>2. Compiling, publishing, and publicizing an annual list of which 
>>companies and games meet those criteria.
>>3. Maintaining a forum (The currently rather drifting Game 
>>Accessibility Project comes to mind) where developers can go for 
>>immediate help.
>>
>>I'm a developer of games that are accessible.
>>Have shipped 22 different revenue-generating products in a wide 
>>variety of vertical markets in the last 30 years.
>>Am neither stupid nor lazy.
>>And don't see any of the 3 above items.
>>
>>None of the 3 items should take long to build as a first cut.
>>
>>And if not from this SIG, then from where?
>>
>>John Bannick
>>CTO
>>7-128 Software
>>
>>
>>At 02:26 AM 12/1/2007, you wrote:
>>>Please, can we stop with the negative talk about GDC and the game
>>>industry? I work in the game industry for LucasArts. Just last week I
>>>talked to a highly respected programmer and he's 100% behind us and
>>>wants to talk about what we can do to improve accessibility in our
>>>games after our current milestone is finished. There are dozens of
>>>people at LucasArts that support game accessibility. Nintendo totally
>>>gets it, EA Games totally gets it with their Family Play modes in
>>>their sports games. Peter Molyneux gets it, Will Wright... the list
>>>goes on and on.
>>>
>>>It's offensive to me when people of this SIG accuse developers of not
>>>caring because WE DO CARE. The last thing you want to do is insult the
>>>people you have to work with. It's the quickest way to turn them away
>>>from our cause.
>>>
>>>So, instead of complaining, lets do something about it! First,
>>>everyone here needs to understand what it's like for developers and
>>>why it's so hard for them to adopt accessibility features.
>>>
>>>1. Limited financial resources - Games are very expensive to make and
>>>any new features adds to the cost. Before you can add accessibility
>>>features you must have a game and that's where most of the money is
>>>spent first.
>>>
>>>2. Limited time - Game development is incredibly complex and hard to
>>>tame. No matter how much extra time gets budgeted into the production
>>>schedule, it always runs out well before all tasks are complete. When
>>>this happens, features get cut in order to save the core of the game
>>>and again, without a game, there can't be any accessibility features.
>>>Because this usually happens so late, there isn't enough time to work
>>>on accessibility features before the game has to ship.
>>>
>>>3. Limited information - Even if a developer was pro-active and
>>>scheduled the development of accessibility features into the games'
>>>development schedule, there's still a major lack of knowledge and
>>>tools that enable them to do their job. The SIG has been thinking
>>>about accessibility features for years and we have all the solutions,
>>>but developers don't yet. We need to make ourselves known and readily
>>>available to help them.
>>>
>>>What can we do to solve these issues? We need to develop our
>>>relationships with developers and offer our assistance. Our attempts
>>>to work with GarageGames is a good start. When a new game is announced
>>>we should contact them and offer our expertise.
>>>
>>>We have GOT to get a website up so that we can communicate our
>>>abilities and expertise to our target audiences (game developers).
>>>
>>>But there are technical issues and many of us are volunteers and so
>>>things move very slowly.
>>>
>>>Several of us are writing guidelines for implementing certain features
>>>but again, this is a slow process. Others are doing research. Going to
>>>conferences is awesome. Writing articles to Gamasutra is great as
>>>well.
>>>
>>>Eitan is right, we have to "sell" our expertise. It's not that
>>>developers don't care, they don't know that they SHOULD care.
>>>
>>>-Reid
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>games_access mailing list
>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>
>>>
>>>--
>>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>>Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.11/1161 - Release Date: 
>>>11/30/2007 12:12 PM
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>games_access mailing list
>>games_access at igda.org
>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access



From arthit73 at cablespeed.com  Sat Dec  1 12:35:24 2007
From: arthit73 at cablespeed.com (Robert Florio)
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 12:35:24 -0500
Subject: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News
In-Reply-To: AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIwkKiwA
References: <006501c8312b$82902a60$6501a8c0@Inspiron><p0623090ac37223cd87e8@130.126.29.21><a6673b8d0711271244m7b678e79ye94e3a7688c020e2@mail.gmail.com><836db6300711300020r477e9abbldc4a6261effa5686@mail.gmail.com><008701c8337d$ac6de170$6501a8c0@Inspiron><p0623090fc3760c1b8d7d@130.126.29.21><30EC442C-11A9-416C-BE37-0540384E8C0A@pininteractive.com><000301c833bf$4c509a20$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
	AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIwkKiwA
Message-ID: <003601c83440$8e28d0d0$6501a8c0@Inspiron>

Hi Eitan.  I disagree though I think getting government on our side is our
best bet.  It takes millions of dollars to develop games and it doesn't look
like that's going to happen anytime soon to get into mainstream media for
the industry to pick it up and say, oh yeah why have we been ignoring this
obvious things like that.  The federal government regulations for law
doesn't help us at all because the private sector is where the mainstream
games are.  I think it's a really good chance to get some senators to help
us.  Anybody in?  No?  I guess it is dead then.  It's kind of getting
frustrating to hear people say like I've been suggesting for a while to take
this path and then nobody wants to do it so why not?  We haven't done that
path yet.

 

Robert

 

  _____  

From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
On Behalf Of Eitan Glinert
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 11:10 PM
To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
Subject: Re: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News

 

It is law, at least federally:
http://www.section508.gov/

The gov't doesn't regulate private industry in this regard, and I don't
think lobbying is going to change that. The best way to get through to
industry is to show profitability; do so, and others will follow. 

That said, I understand that many people spent a lot time working on the
proposals, and that it's sad that most got rejected. I also know that our
SIG's acceptance rate actually isn't that bad, GDC rejected *tons* of talks
this year, since so many people want to speak. So try not to worry too much
about talks that didn't get in, and let's focus on making the most out of
what we've got! 

If we're concerned with low talk attendance numbers, let's figure out a new
way to sell this so that we can increase the number of people who show up
for our presentations. 

Cheers,
Eitan 

On Nov 30, 2007 9:10 PM, Robert Florio <arthit73 at cablespeed.com> wrote:

Perhaps we should take the Hillary Clinton path?  Start soliciting or
lobbying senators for a change.  Backed up by leading government and
university research backing petitions to get the industry to respond by law?

It is dramatic but it will be very effective.  Honestly it should the law I
think.

No if and or buts about it.  That's the job of our government to stand up
for people who can't speak for themselves.  Countless other committees have 
gotten together and did speak up for those who couldn't, making sure that
their rights were heard.  If the largest conference in the world will ignore
us maybe we can get someone on our side that they can't. 

I have to say it really is disappointing to see the low numbers of attendees
at that conference.  And then hear the response just walking around talking
to developers they just seem clueless.

Robert




-----Original Message-----
From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:
<mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org>  games_access-bounces at igda.org]

On Behalf Of Reid Kimball
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 7:05 PM
To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
Subject: Re: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News 

Talking to other audiences is fine and valuable but we can't abandon
the main games industry. We've made a lot of progress. You can't see
it right now, but I know we have. People have heard of us, they've 
seen our work. That's step one. Steps two and three will come. It
often takes 10 years for an industry to adopt radically new ways of
thinking and unfortunately, accessibility does complicate the design
and tech requirements which requires developers to think differently. 

On Nov 30, 2007 3:01 PM, Thomas Westin <thomas at pininteractive.com> wrote:

> Hi
>
> just want to add I've started to become a bit cynical about GDC after four

> years of low number of attendees. I'm also disappointed by this, but for
> other reasons than the GDC judges
>
> Let's not forget GDC is just one conference, although the biggest it's 
> perhaps not the best - low numbers of attendees is really not our problem,
> it's the industry's problem, that they can't see the importance of
> accessibility for the future of the industry. We're here to help, but 
since
> the industry (with a few exceptions/individuals) isn't listening at GDC,
> they do listen elsewhere.
>
> I'd say we should aim for other conferences where people have interest and

> time to listen to us. FuturePlay was a great success; let's focus on
similar
> conferences where we can succeed rather than getting disappointed at GDC.
>
> /Thomas
>
>
> 
> 30 nov 2007 kl. 20.00 skrev d. michelle hinn:
>
>
>
> Well, there's lots to do, that's for sure. We also can't forget that some
of
> us (you, me, Richard, others) were hit by the GDC flu and/or had to go to 
> hospital (my kidney nightmare) and the selection committee doesn't allow
you
> to petition for that. That DRAMATICALLY impacted a lot of our sessions and
> Idol went way differently than we'd planned for. So we had a lot of bad 
luck
> last year that isn't the fault of anyone -- but it did impact how our
> proposals were viewed.
>
>
> As a group, we just need to remember that we are a group. We are a
volunteer 
> group. But we are a group and we do a lot! And every time we get a chance
we
> have to remember to talk about the group. Sure, we all have individual
> goals, jobs, lives, etc -- but if we all remembered to mention that we are

a
> part of this group, this movement, I think it would go a long
> way....especially when it's something good! :)
>
>
> Michelle
>
>
> Sounds like a challenge.  It's too bad there was a bad reputation now 
about
> our group.  Just feels the fighter though to get the word out about our
> initiatives even more.  Still baffles my mind like game accessibility is
> just not excepted at all by the mainstream game design community.  Until 
> someday, some mainstream game designers are injured and can't find their
> favorite games anymore and then we'll see.  But apparently the last 20
years
> they've all been pretty invulnerable. 
>
> Robert
>
>  ________________________________
>
> From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:
<mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org>  games_access-bounces at igda.org]
> On Behalf Of d. michelle hinn
>  Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 12:48 PM
>  To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
>  Subject: Re: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News 
>
> Hey,
>
> The only feedback I've gotten was informal from people I know who work
there
> -- the sessions weren't judged on content as much as based on low numbers
of
> attendees and a lot of bad press from GDC07 (many people on the advisory 
> boards for each section (audio, design, etc) gossiped, Idol participants
> complained...and, yeah, that web archive was mentioned -- google, etc are
> not our friends). So we live and learn. I'm not going to go into specifics

> because it will hurt us to go into it and we don't need that -- There's
too
> much to do and we cannot spend the little time we have until GDC08 talking
> about what happened after GDC07. I know I brought it up because, yes, I 
was
> angry that morning because the low number of acceptances for this year was
> what I was afraid might happen. But I was also angry because I really,
> really killed myself over the proposals for this year. 
>
> Unfortunately, it's not academia so they won't ever provide us with
concrete
> comments or a feedback page about what we could have done
better/differently
> or even what they hated. And it's not a blind review either. Basically 
this
> year we need to atone and re-earn respect as a group. >From what I've
heard,
> however, if you have never had a proposal accepted that you turned in,
they
> were EVEN MORE likely to not take a chance on your proposal...so I guess 
we
> are lucky that we got three sessions (two were solicited but even those
went
> through a bit of a review as well).
>
> So when you say you can pay your own way...do you mean that you want to 
buy
> your own pass?
>
> We'll have accessibility arcade and the meet and greet to show some stuff
at
> -- we won't have as much room but we should have stuff for people to look
at 
> and some of the stuff are great conversation starters. So we won't need as
> much this year -- my broken controller (the Quad Controller that has now
> been broken TWICE by airport security so it really looks bad) is quite the

> conversation piece. I think I could have just carried that around at
> FuturePlay all day to get the word out about accessibility! :D
>
> Michelle
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
>
> I'm sorry to hear about the passes. I'll be driving from Reno to SF so I
can
> take all my accessible hardware if need be. (If there is space to demo
> them?)
>
>
>
> Michelle, did they provide us with specific feedback on those proposals?
> what were the main criteria for not accepting them?
>
>
>
>
> I can pay my own way to GDC since I have some money left from my grant 
that
> I need to spend before august, after UNR decided not to approve my travel
> request to Futureplay. Besides it's cheap for me to go there anyway.
>
>
>
> Cheers Eelke
> 
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 27/11/2007, Reid Kimball <reid at rbkdesign.com> wrote:
> While this is isn't the ideal situation it's not a total loss for the 
>  group and we have to work within our resources to do the best we can.
>
>  If only three of us can come, then I suggest we don't bring any
>  hardware accessories. Instead, let's create flyer's and brochures 
>  about the accessories. Maybe even produce videos of people using them.
>
>  I also recommend that because we are a smaller group this year, we try
>  to have personal meetings with game developers to talk about how we 
>  can help them.
>
>  -Reid
>
>  On Nov 27, 2007 12:25 PM, d. michelle hinn < hinn at uiuc.edu> wrote:
>  >
>  >
>  > Ok...
>  >
>  >
>  > So remember when I was writing for days straight for all the GDC
> submissions
>  > without a whole lot of help? All submissions have been accepted now so
we
>  > have some bad, bad music to face. I never did put up all the final 
>  > submissions on the WIKI -- I was too tired after the deadline and it
> doesn't
>  > matter as much now. I'll get them up for archive reasons.
>  >
>  >
>  > Well...we've been hit by reality this year. I hate to bring this up 
again
>  > but I feel that I have to -- A lot of public word got out about our big
>  > post-GDC fight last year (it's archived on the net...). I'm not saying
> that
>  > it was any one person or any one comment -- I can't even look at the 
> archive
>
> > without beating myself up about it because I felt like I had really,
> really
>  > let everyone down. I got the proposals and the passes but I couldn't
make
>  > our showing work in the best way possible. I couldn't be everywhere 
>  > advertising our sessions. I was far from perfect, we were all far from
>  > perfect, we had big dreams but not enough people doing the work. I'm
not
>  > saying everything goes back to that but we had a big year last year, 
had
>  > more than enough passes for everyone...and that was then. It's hard for
>  > me...well, it's very sad for me to realize that we had it so great last
> year
>  > and we didn't recognize it, we didn't have enough real help when push 
> came
>  > to shove (or suitcase pulling came to suitcase pulling back and forth
> every
>  > day to the convention center). All the "should of" "would have" "could 
> have"
>  > things are coming back to haunt me. I stopped flogging myself about
this
> a
>  > while ago and thought that I had come to peace with it but I realize
now
>  > that I still haven't stopped flogging myself about not being 
superhuman.
> I
>  > know. I know. Stop it.
>  >
>  >
>  > So...we only had one proposal accepted. All the acceptances are in now.
>  > Reid's [cc] poster (downgraded from a 20 minute talk but I think this 
> will
>  > get more people) submission.
>  > [ https://www.cmpevents.com/GD08/a.asp?option=C
<https://www.cmpevents.com/GD08/a.asp?option=C&V=11&SessID=6456>
&V=11&SessID=6456 ]
>  >
>  >
>  > The other two were IGDA solicited (ie, they did not go through the
> system)
>  > -- accessibility arcade and the SIG meet and greet. That buys us two
more 
>  > passes -- one is mine since I'm SIG chair and one was for Eelke for the
> meet
>  > and greet because he helped on the proposals.
>  >
>  >
>  > I'm going to try and talk to everyone I can think of to try and get a 
few
>  > more passes because one of those is a roundtable and was solicited by
> IGDA
>  > (that was NOT in the proposal process) and it's accessibility arcade.
To
>  > pull that off, we need more people. I hope that this gets us a few more

>  > passes.
>  >
>  >
>  > The booth is out of question unless we can get some SERIOUS money FAST.
I
> am
>  > trying every angle I can think of but so far no luck. The booth SPACE 
> costs
>  > $5100 for 10x10 booth -- add on about $3000 more for the "required"
> minimum
>  > of stuff we have to provide...no way. IF we get an expo booth it will
get
> us 
>  > more EXPO passes, which will restrict those with these passes to just
> being
>  > able to get into the expo area (no talks, etc). That's the reality.
>  >
>  >
>  > I'm sorry to have to tell you this and I'm sorry for the anger/sadness 
in
> my
> > tone. We are not going to be able to bring everyone we want to. I cannot
> say
>  > when or if I'll hear if we can get more passes. I know some of you have
>  > already made flight and hotel arrangements. If you are one of these 
> people,
>  > please check with your airlines, etc for the last date to cancel
without
>  > penalty.
>  >
>  >
>  > So three passes...that's it. That's where we are at. I will let you 
know
> if
>  > the pass situation changes but for now it doesn't look great. We now
have
>  > fifteen fewer passes so those of us in attendance are going to have to
> try
>  > and talk our asses off at GDC. 
>  >
>  >
>  > Michelle
>  > _______________________________________________
>  > games_access mailing list
>  > games_access at igda.org  <mailto:games_access at igda.org> 
>  > http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>  >
>  >
>  _______________________________________________ 
>  games_access mailing list
>  games_access at igda.org
>  http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
<http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access> 
>
>
>
>
>  --
>
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>  Eelke Folmer                           Assistant Professor
>  Department of CS&E/171 
>  University of Nevada              Reno, Nevada 89557
>  Game interaction design        www.helpyouplay.com
>
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

>
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  games_access mailing list
>
> games_access at igda.org
>   http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
<http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access> 
>
>
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  games_access mailing list
>   games_access at igda.org <mailto:games_access at igda.org> 
>  http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
> _______________________________________________ 
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> games_access at igda.org
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>
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> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>
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From arthit73 at cablespeed.com  Sat Dec  1 12:43:30 2007
From: arthit73 at cablespeed.com (Robert Florio)
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 12:43:30 -0500
Subject: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News
In-Reply-To: AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIxkKiwA
References: <006501c8312b$82902a60$6501a8c0@Inspiron><p0623090ac37223cd87e8@130.126.29.21><a6673b8d0711271244m7b678e79ye94e3a7688c020e2@mail.gmail.com><836db6300711300020r477e9abbldc4a6261effa5686@mail.gmail.com><008701c8337d$ac6de170$6501a8c0@Inspiron><p0623090fc3760c1b8d7d@130.126.29.21><30EC442C-11A9-416C-BE37-0540384E8C0A@pininteractive.com><000301c833bf$4c509a20$6501a8c0@Inspiron><3dd2060e0711302009g3635fb8eq5a12c64cb86a5972@mail.gmail.com>
	AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIxkKiwA
Message-ID: <003b01c83441$aff58180$6501a8c0@Inspiron>

Hi Reid.  So basically if you ask a developer face-to-face they're not going
to admit of course that they don't support game accessibility, but the proof
is in the pudding.  There just is no initiative to do it.  If what you're
saying, "they don't know that they need to do it" to me doesn't make sense
because I don't understand what that means maybe.

I understand the points you made also about funding, about time and things
like that, and the schedule, it just seems like, if they cared they would do
something.  It doesn't take a rocket scientist to sit down and go over some
of the basic issues and start developing around needs.

I think these discussions are good somehow we might find a different
direction that we need.  Especially for those of us that feel frustrated and
just need to talk about it.  As I don't like avoiding issues but confronting
them.  Because then people start thinking they wish they said something or
the topic was brought up in and misunderstandings happen if something was
never talked about.

Robert

-----Original Message-----
From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
On Behalf Of Reid Kimball
Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 2:27 AM
To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
Subject: Re: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News

Please, can we stop with the negative talk about GDC and the game
industry? I work in the game industry for LucasArts. Just last week I
talked to a highly respected programmer and he's 100% behind us and
wants to talk about what we can do to improve accessibility in our
games after our current milestone is finished. There are dozens of
people at LucasArts that support game accessibility. Nintendo totally
gets it, EA Games totally gets it with their Family Play modes in
their sports games. Peter Molyneux gets it, Will Wright... the list
goes on and on.

It's offensive to me when people of this SIG accuse developers of not
caring because WE DO CARE. The last thing you want to do is insult the
people you have to work with. It's the quickest way to turn them away
from our cause.

So, instead of complaining, lets do something about it! First,
everyone here needs to understand what it's like for developers and
why it's so hard for them to adopt accessibility features.

1. Limited financial resources - Games are very expensive to make and
any new features adds to the cost. Before you can add accessibility
features you must have a game and that's where most of the money is
spent first.

2. Limited time - Game development is incredibly complex and hard to
tame. No matter how much extra time gets budgeted into the production
schedule, it always runs out well before all tasks are complete. When
this happens, features get cut in order to save the core of the game
and again, without a game, there can't be any accessibility features.
Because this usually happens so late, there isn't enough time to work
on accessibility features before the game has to ship.

3. Limited information - Even if a developer was pro-active and
scheduled the development of accessibility features into the games'
development schedule, there's still a major lack of knowledge and
tools that enable them to do their job. The SIG has been thinking
about accessibility features for years and we have all the solutions,
but developers don't yet. We need to make ourselves known and readily
available to help them.

What can we do to solve these issues? We need to develop our
relationships with developers and offer our assistance. Our attempts
to work with GarageGames is a good start. When a new game is announced
we should contact them and offer our expertise.

We have GOT to get a website up so that we can communicate our
abilities and expertise to our target audiences (game developers).

But there are technical issues and many of us are volunteers and so
things move very slowly.

Several of us are writing guidelines for implementing certain features
but again, this is a slow process. Others are doing research. Going to
conferences is awesome. Writing articles to Gamasutra is great as
well.

Eitan is right, we have to "sell" our expertise. It's not that
developers don't care, they don't know that they SHOULD care.

-Reid
_______________________________________________
games_access mailing list
games_access at igda.org
http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access



From arthit73 at cablespeed.com  Sat Dec  1 12:46:52 2007
From: arthit73 at cablespeed.com (Robert Florio)
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 12:46:52 -0500
Subject: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News
In-Reply-To: AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIykKywA
References: <006501c8312b$82902a60$6501a8c0@Inspiron><p0623090ac37223cd87e8@130.126.29.21><a6673b8d0711271244m7b678e79ye94e3a7688c020e2@mail.gmail.com><836db6300711300020r477e9abbldc4a6261effa5686@mail.gmail.com><008701c8337d$ac6de170$6501a8c0@Inspiron><p0623090fc3760c1b8d7d@130.126.29.21><30EC442C-11A9-416C-BE37-0540384E8C0A@pininteractive.com>
	AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIykKywA
Message-ID: <003c01c83442$28257b10$6501a8c0@Inspiron>

I think that's an excellent perspective Eelke.  Coming to the independent
people instead.

I'm glad you brought this up I think in the back of my mind I was thinking
this might be the reason of low attendance because it cost so much for the
passes they'd rather spend their time on what they know they're looking for
to learn instead of something they're not sure of will benefit them.

Which gives me an idea.

Instead of going in alone on these conferences lie not trying to collaborate
with some independent publishers at the conferences at their own speeches
seeing if they will tie in with us the accessibility because they already
have their huge crowd, it will be a way for everyone in the crowd who might
want to view or see what we have to say, but they'd rather be somewhere else
learning it from a direct example.  In the same room where they want to be
first.

Robert

-----Original Message-----
From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
On Behalf Of Eelke Folmer
Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 3:18 AM
To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
Subject: Re: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News

With so many interesting talks going on and such expensive prices for
the passes game developers rather go to talks on the geometry shaders
used in Assassin's creed then listen to our talks. Given the current
state of the games industry with the ever increasing budgets and high
risks of failure, many game companies struggle for survival, so there
is really no incentive for them to make games accessible UNLESS we can
sketch out the potential payoffs, which is hard for certain
disabilities. I think 10 or 20 years ago we could have had a bigger
impact since game development didn't involve so much money and risk.
Given that observation, why not focus on those who will shape the
future of the games industry? --> Independent game developers.

Cheers Eelke




On 30/11/2007, Thomas Westin <thomas at pininteractive.com> wrote:
> Hi
>
> just want to add I've started to become a bit cynical about GDC after four
> years of low number of attendees. I'm also disappointed by this, but for
> other reasons than the GDC judges
>
> Let's not forget GDC is just one conference, although the biggest it's
> perhaps not the best - low numbers of attendees is really not our problem,
> it's the industry's problem, that they can't see the importance of
> accessibility for the future of the industry. We're here to help, but
since
> the industry (with a few exceptions/individuals) isn't listening at GDC,
> they do listen elsewhere.
>
> I'd say we should aim for other conferences where people have interest and
> time to listen to us. FuturePlay was a great success; let's focus on
similar
> conferences where we can succeed rather than getting disappointed at GDC.
>
> /Thomas
>
>
>
> 30 nov 2007 kl. 20.00 skrev d. michelle hinn:
>
>
> Well, there's lots to do, that's for sure. We also can't forget that some
of
> us (you, me, Richard, others) were hit by the GDC flu and/or had to go to
> hospital (my kidney nightmare) and the selection committee doesn't allow
you
> to petition for that. That DRAMATICALLY impacted a lot of our sessions and
> Idol went way differently than we'd planned for. So we had a lot of bad
luck
> last year that isn't the fault of anyone -- but it did impact how our
> proposals were viewed.
>
>
> As a group, we just need to remember that we are a group. We are a
volunteer
> group. But we are a group and we do a lot! And every time we get a chance
we
> have to remember to talk about the group. Sure, we all have individual
> goals, jobs, lives, etc -- but if we all remembered to mention that we are
a
> part of this group, this movement, I think it would go a long
> way....especially when it's something good! :)
>
>
> Michelle
>
>
> Sounds like a challenge.  It's too bad there was a bad reputation now
about
> our group.  Just feels the fighter though to get the word out about our
> initiatives even more.  Still baffles my mind like game accessibility is
> just not excepted at all by the mainstream game design community.  Until
> someday, some mainstream game designers are injured and can't find their
> favorite games anymore and then we'll see.  But apparently the last 20
years
> they've all been pretty invulnerable.
>
> Robert
>
>  ________________________________
>
> From: games_access-bounces at igda.org
> [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of d.
> michelle hinn
>  Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 12:48 PM
>  To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
>  Subject: Re: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News
>
> Hey,
>
> The only feedback I've gotten was informal from people I know who work
there
> -- the sessions weren't judged on content as much as based on low numbers
of
> attendees and a lot of bad press from GDC07 (many people on the advisory
> boards for each section (audio, design, etc) gossiped, Idol participants
> complained...and, yeah, that web archive was mentioned -- google, etc are
> not our friends). So we live and learn. I'm not going to go into specifics
> because it will hurt us to go into it and we don't need that -- There's
too
> much to do and we cannot spend the little time we have until GDC08 talking
> about what happened after GDC07. I know I brought it up because, yes, I
was
> angry that morning because the low number of acceptances for this year was
> what I was afraid might happen. But I was also angry because I really,
> really killed myself over the proposals for this year.
>
> Unfortunately, it's not academia so they won't ever provide us with
concrete
> comments or a feedback page about what we could have done
better/differently
> or even what they hated. And it's not a blind review either. Basically
this
> year we need to atone and re-earn respect as a group. >From what I've
heard,
> however, if you have never had a proposal accepted that you turned in,
they
> were EVEN MORE likely to not take a chance on your proposal...so I guess
we
> are lucky that we got three sessions (two were solicited but even those
went
> through a bit of a review as well).
>
> So when you say you can pay your own way...do you mean that you want to
buy
> your own pass?
>
> We'll have accessibility arcade and the meet and greet to show some stuff
at
> -- we won't have as much room but we should have stuff for people to look
at
> and some of the stuff are great conversation starters. So we won't need as
> much this year -- my broken controller (the Quad Controller that has now
> been broken TWICE by airport security so it really looks bad) is quite the
> conversation piece. I think I could have just carried that around at
> FuturePlay all day to get the word out about accessibility! :D
>
> Michelle
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
>
> I'm sorry to hear about the passes. I'll be driving from Reno to SF so I
can
> take all my accessible hardware if need be. (If there is space to demo
> them?)
>
>
>
> Michelle, did they provide us with specific feedback on those proposals?
> what were the main criteria for not accepting them?
>
>
>
>
> I can pay my own way to GDC since I have some money left from my grant
that
> I need to spend before august, after UNR decided not to approve my travel
> request to Futureplay. Besides it's cheap for me to go there anyway.
>
>
>
> Cheers Eelke
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 27/11/2007, Reid Kimball <reid at rbkdesign.com> wrote:
> While this is isn't the ideal situation it's not a total loss for the
>  group and we have to work within our resources to do the best we can.
>
>  If only three of us can come, then I suggest we don't bring any
>  hardware accessories. Instead, let's create flyer's and brochures
>  about the accessories. Maybe even produce videos of people using them.
>
>  I also recommend that because we are a smaller group this year, we try
>  to have personal meetings with game developers to talk about how we
>  can help them.
>
>  -Reid
>
>  On Nov 27, 2007 12:25 PM, d. michelle hinn < hinn at uiuc.edu> wrote:
>  >
>  >
>  > Ok...
>  >
>  >
>  > So remember when I was writing for days straight for all the GDC
> submissions
>  > without a whole lot of help? All submissions have been accepted now so
we
>  > have some bad, bad music to face. I never did put up all the final
>  > submissions on the WIKI -- I was too tired after the deadline and it
> doesn't
>  > matter as much now. I'll get them up for archive reasons.
>  >
>  >
>  > Well...we've been hit by reality this year. I hate to bring this up
again
>  > but I feel that I have to -- A lot of public word got out about our big
>  > post-GDC fight last year (it's archived on the net...). I'm not saying
> that
>  > it was any one person or any one comment -- I can't even look at the
> archive
>
> > without beating myself up about it because I felt like I had really,
> really
>  > let everyone down. I got the proposals and the passes but I couldn't
make
>  > our showing work in the best way possible. I couldn't be everywhere
>  > advertising our sessions. I was far from perfect, we were all far from
>  > perfect, we had big dreams but not enough people doing the work. I'm
not
>  > saying everything goes back to that but we had a big year last year,
had
>  > more than enough passes for everyone...and that was then. It's hard for
>  > me...well, it's very sad for me to realize that we had it so great last
> year
>  > and we didn't recognize it, we didn't have enough real help when push
> came
>  > to shove (or suitcase pulling came to suitcase pulling back and forth
> every
>  > day to the convention center). All the "should of" "would have" "could
> have"
>  > things are coming back to haunt me. I stopped flogging myself about
this
> a
>  > while ago and thought that I had come to peace with it but I realize
now
>  > that I still haven't stopped flogging myself about not being
superhuman.
> I
>  > know. I know. Stop it.
>  >
>  >
>  > So...we only had one proposal accepted. All the acceptances are in now.
>  > Reid's [cc] poster (downgraded from a 20 minute talk but I think this
> will
>  > get more people) submission.
>  > [
> https://www.cmpevents.com/GD08/a.asp?option=C&V=11&SessID=6456
> ]
>  >
>  >
>  > The other two were IGDA solicited (ie, they did not go through the
> system)
>  > -- accessibility arcade and the SIG meet and greet. That buys us two
more
>  > passes -- one is mine since I'm SIG chair and one was for Eelke for the
> meet
>  > and greet because he helped on the proposals.
>  >
>  >
>  > I'm going to try and talk to everyone I can think of to try and get a
few
>  > more passes because one of those is a roundtable and was solicited by
> IGDA
>  > (that was NOT in the proposal process) and it's accessibility arcade.
To
>  > pull that off, we need more people. I hope that this gets us a few more
>  > passes.
>  >
>  >
>  > The booth is out of question unless we can get some SERIOUS money FAST.
I
> am
>  > trying every angle I can think of but so far no luck. The booth SPACE
> costs
>  > $5100 for 10x10 booth -- add on about $3000 more for the "required"
> minimum
>  > of stuff we have to provide...no way. IF we get an expo booth it will
get
> us
>  > more EXPO passes, which will restrict those with these passes to just
> being
>  > able to get into the expo area (no talks, etc). That's the reality.
>  >
>  >
>  > I'm sorry to have to tell you this and I'm sorry for the anger/sadness
in
> my
> > tone. We are not going to be able to bring everyone we want to. I cannot
> say
>  > when or if I'll hear if we can get more passes. I know some of you have
>  > already made flight and hotel arrangements. If you are one of these
> people,
>  > please check with your airlines, etc for the last date to cancel
without
>  > penalty.
>  >
>  >
>  > So three passes...that's it. That's where we are at. I will let you
know
> if
>  > the pass situation changes but for now it doesn't look great. We now
have
>  > fifteen fewer passes so those of us in attendance are going to have to
> try
>  > and talk our asses off at GDC.
>  >
>  >
>  > Michelle
>  > _______________________________________________
>  > games_access mailing list
>  > games_access at igda.org
>  > http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>  >
>  >
>  _______________________________________________
>  games_access mailing list
>  games_access at igda.org
>  http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>
>
>
>  --
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>  Eelke Folmer                           Assistant Professor
>  Department of CS&E/171
>  University of Nevada              Reno, Nevada 89557
>  Game interaction design        www.helpyouplay.com
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  games_access mailing list
>
> games_access at igda.org
>  http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  games_access mailing list
>  games_access at igda.org
>  http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>


-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eelke Folmer                           Assistant Professor
Department of CS&E/171
University of Nevada              Reno, Nevada 89557
Game interaction design        www.helpyouplay.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
games_access mailing list
games_access at igda.org
http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access



From jbannick at 7128.com  Sat Dec  1 12:51:14 2007
From: jbannick at 7128.com (John Bannick)
Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2007 12:51:14 -0500
Subject: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News
In-Reply-To: <p0623091cc3774402a76e@[130.126.29.21]>
References: <006501c8312b$82902a60$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
	<p0623090ac37223cd87e8@130.126.29.21>
	<a6673b8d0711271244m7b678e79ye94e3a7688c020e2@mail.gmail.com>
	<836db6300711300020r477e9abbldc4a6261effa5686@mail.gmail.com>
	<008701c8337d$ac6de170$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
	<p0623090fc3760c1b8d7d@130.126.29.21>
	<30EC442C-11A9-416C-BE37-0540384E8C0A@pininteractive.com>
	<000301c833bf$4c509a20$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
	<3dd2060e0711302009g3635fb8eq5a12c64cb86a5972@mail.gmail.com>
	<a6673b8d0711302326j60766890s4e63c3634b5f6bf5@mail.gmail.com>
	<6.1.0.6.2.20071201103852.01d66f38@enigami.com>
	<p0623091cc3774402a76e@[130.126.29.21]>
Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.2.20071201123300.01d9e6a0@enigami.com>

Michelle,

Well put.

So OK. I volunteer to assemble, contribute to, and be responsible for 
delivery of Item 1.

This means:

1. Getting from you good folks any work in progress you want to share, 
synthesizing it into something that works, getting a quick review by anyone 
here who is interested, and delivering a first cut of SIG Game 
Accessibility Criteria.

2. Getting from anyone here who wants to contribute, and contributing to, a 
list of target developers, organizations, institutions, and distributors we 
send this to, getting a quick review, and delivering a first cut 
Distribution List.

3. Writing a first draft cover letter /  promo piece, that is sent with the 
Criteria, getting a quick review, and delivering this first cut Cover Letter.

All of the above sent to you, Michelle NLT 15 January, 2008.
That way you get the volunteer work, you maintain control, and everyone is 
included.

BTW. This isn't nearly as formidable as developing coding standards for the 
50 engineers who did the software that laid out the NY Times, and surviving 
the process.

Does this work for you, Michelle?

John Bannick

At 12:24 PM 12/1/2007, you wrote:
>All of the things John mentions are projects we have talked about and/or 
>taken passes at (the top ten list from two years ago and now the new 
>project that Barrie has started up, etc). Others have brought up other 
>ideas that we've either done or attempted and then the projects lost 
>momentum. All these things are great but there's a problem...these things 
>also take active volunteers in the SIG and from that perspective our 
>numbers are low. So we need people who are willing to put in the time and 
>may/may not get any reimbursement for that time and every project cannot 
>be started and maintained by me.
>
>So instead of continuing to criticize ourselves (I know...I started it but 
>I was really mad after killing myself over the proposals at deadline), the 
>industry, the GDC etc...who from WITHIN this SIG can put in the time 
>needed for these things AND actually follow through? No, it's not fair 
>that we aren't in a position to reimburse people for time and that won't 
>change in the near future. But it's something that will have to change and 
>it will change but we can't just wait for that day to come (because it 
>won't come if we don't put in the sweat equity now). People need to 
>honestly commit the time and work because they believe in making change. 
>Take some of that anger and tell me what YOU are willing to do to help us 
>make change. Take ownership of something on behalf of the SIG. Ideas are 
>great...but we need people who will put in the work so that the "SIG" is 
>able to do these things.
>
>So who will join in putting in some volunteer time so that these ideas can 
>become reality?
>
>Michelle
>
>>Reid is right.
>>
>>There are developers right now who want their work to be accessible.
>>
>>This SIG could right now facilitate that by:
>>
>>1. Providing, distributing, and publicizing a concise, specific set of 
>>functional criteria that define what means accessible.
>>2. Compiling, publishing, and publicizing an annual list of which 
>>companies and games meet those criteria.
>>3. Maintaining a forum (The currently rather drifting Game Accessibility 
>>Project comes to mind) where developers can go for immediate help.
>>
>>I'm a developer of games that are accessible.
>>Have shipped 22 different revenue-generating products in a wide variety 
>>of vertical markets in the last 30 years.
>>Am neither stupid nor lazy.
>>And don't see any of the 3 above items.
>>
>>None of the 3 items should take long to build as a first cut.
>>
>>And if not from this SIG, then from where?
>>
>>John Bannick
>>CTO
>>7-128 Software
>>
>>
>>At 02:26 AM 12/1/2007, you wrote:
>>>Please, can we stop with the negative talk about GDC and the game
>>>industry? I work in the game industry for LucasArts. Just last week I
>>>talked to a highly respected programmer and he's 100% behind us and
>>>wants to talk about what we can do to improve accessibility in our
>>>games after our current milestone is finished. There are dozens of
>>>people at LucasArts that support game accessibility. Nintendo totally
>>>gets it, EA Games totally gets it with their Family Play modes in
>>>their sports games. Peter Molyneux gets it, Will Wright... the list
>>>goes on and on.
>>>
>>>It's offensive to me when people of this SIG accuse developers of not
>>>caring because WE DO CARE. The last thing you want to do is insult the
>>>people you have to work with. It's the quickest way to turn them away
>>>from our cause.
>>>
>>>So, instead of complaining, lets do something about it! First,
>>>everyone here needs to understand what it's like for developers and
>>>why it's so hard for them to adopt accessibility features.
>>>
>>>1. Limited financial resources - Games are very expensive to make and
>>>any new features adds to the cost. Before you can add accessibility
>>>features you must have a game and that's where most of the money is
>>>spent first.
>>>
>>>2. Limited time - Game development is incredibly complex and hard to
>>>tame. No matter how much extra time gets budgeted into the production
>>>schedule, it always runs out well before all tasks are complete. When
>>>this happens, features get cut in order to save the core of the game
>>>and again, without a game, there can't be any accessibility features.
>>>Because this usually happens so late, there isn't enough time to work
>>>on accessibility features before the game has to ship.
>>>
>>>3. Limited information - Even if a developer was pro-active and
>>>scheduled the development of accessibility features into the games'
>>>development schedule, there's still a major lack of knowledge and
>>>tools that enable them to do their job. The SIG has been thinking
>>>about accessibility features for years and we have all the solutions,
>>>but developers don't yet. We need to make ourselves known and readily
>>>available to help them.
>>>
>>>What can we do to solve these issues? We need to develop our
>>>relationships with developers and offer our assistance. Our attempts
>>>to work with GarageGames is a good start. When a new game is announced
>>>we should contact them and offer our expertise.
>>>
>>>We have GOT to get a website up so that we can communicate our
>>>abilities and expertise to our target audiences (game developers).
>>>
>>>But there are technical issues and many of us are volunteers and so
>>>things move very slowly.
>>>
>>>Several of us are writing guidelines for implementing certain features
>>>but again, this is a slow process. Others are doing research. Going to
>>>conferences is awesome. Writing articles to Gamasutra is great as
>>>well.
>>>
>>>Eitan is right, we have to "sell" our expertise. It's not that
>>>developers don't care, they don't know that they SHOULD care.
>>>
>>>-Reid
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>games_access mailing list
>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>
>>>
>>>--
>>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>>Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.11/1161 - Release Date: 
>>>11/30/2007 12:12 PM
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>games_access mailing list
>>games_access at igda.org
>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>
>--
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 
>269.16.12/1163 - Release Date: 12/1/2007 12:05 PM



From arthit73 at cablespeed.com  Sat Dec  1 12:52:26 2007
From: arthit73 at cablespeed.com (Robert Florio)
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 12:52:26 -0500
Subject: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News
In-Reply-To: AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIwkLSwA
References: <006501c8312b$82902a60$6501a8c0@Inspiron><p0623090ac37223cd87e8@130.126.29.21><a6673b8d0711271244m7b678e79ye94e3a7688c020e2@mail.gmail.com><836db6300711300020r477e9abbldc4a6261effa5686@mail.gmail.com><008701c8337d$ac6de170$6501a8c0@Inspiron><p0623090fc3760c1b8d7d@130.126.29.21><30EC442C-11A9-416C-BE37-0540384E8C0A@pininteractive.com><000301c833bf$4c509a20$6501a8c0@Inspiron><3dd2060e0711302009g3635fb8eq5a12c64cb86a5972@mail.gmail.com><a6673b8d0711302326j60766890s4e63c3634b5f6bf5@mail.gmail.com>
	AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIwkLSwA
Message-ID: <003e01c83442$efbce8c0$6501a8c0@Inspiron>

Hi John.  With what you said below I think you hit the nail on the head.

Then we definitely need a web site and a forum.
Robert

-----Original Message-----
From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
On Behalf Of John Bannick
Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 11:05 AM
To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
Subject: Re: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News

Reid is right.

There are developers right now who want their work to be accessible.

This SIG could right now facilitate that by:

1. Providing, distributing, and publicizing a concise, specific set of 
functional criteria that define what means accessible.
2. Compiling, publishing, and publicizing an annual list of which companies 
and games meet those criteria.
3. Maintaining a forum (The currently rather drifting Game Accessibility 
Project comes to mind) where developers can go for immediate help.

I'm a developer of games that are accessible.
Have shipped 22 different revenue-generating products in a wide variety of 
vertical markets in the last 30 years.
Am neither stupid nor lazy.
And don't see any of the 3 above items.

None of the 3 items should take long to build as a first cut.

And if not from this SIG, then from where?

John Bannick
CTO
7-128 Software


At 02:26 AM 12/1/2007, you wrote:
>Please, can we stop with the negative talk about GDC and the game
>industry? I work in the game industry for LucasArts. Just last week I
>talked to a highly respected programmer and he's 100% behind us and
>wants to talk about what we can do to improve accessibility in our
>games after our current milestone is finished. There are dozens of
>people at LucasArts that support game accessibility. Nintendo totally
>gets it, EA Games totally gets it with their Family Play modes in
>their sports games. Peter Molyneux gets it, Will Wright... the list
>goes on and on.
>
>It's offensive to me when people of this SIG accuse developers of not
>caring because WE DO CARE. The last thing you want to do is insult the
>people you have to work with. It's the quickest way to turn them away
>from our cause.
>
>So, instead of complaining, lets do something about it! First,
>everyone here needs to understand what it's like for developers and
>why it's so hard for them to adopt accessibility features.
>
>1. Limited financial resources - Games are very expensive to make and
>any new features adds to the cost. Before you can add accessibility
>features you must have a game and that's where most of the money is
>spent first.
>
>2. Limited time - Game development is incredibly complex and hard to
>tame. No matter how much extra time gets budgeted into the production
>schedule, it always runs out well before all tasks are complete. When
>this happens, features get cut in order to save the core of the game
>and again, without a game, there can't be any accessibility features.
>Because this usually happens so late, there isn't enough time to work
>on accessibility features before the game has to ship.
>
>3. Limited information - Even if a developer was pro-active and
>scheduled the development of accessibility features into the games'
>development schedule, there's still a major lack of knowledge and
>tools that enable them to do their job. The SIG has been thinking
>about accessibility features for years and we have all the solutions,
>but developers don't yet. We need to make ourselves known and readily
>available to help them.
>
>What can we do to solve these issues? We need to develop our
>relationships with developers and offer our assistance. Our attempts
>to work with GarageGames is a good start. When a new game is announced
>we should contact them and offer our expertise.
>
>We have GOT to get a website up so that we can communicate our
>abilities and expertise to our target audiences (game developers).
>
>But there are technical issues and many of us are volunteers and so
>things move very slowly.
>
>Several of us are writing guidelines for implementing certain features
>but again, this is a slow process. Others are doing research. Going to
>conferences is awesome. Writing articles to Gamasutra is great as
>well.
>
>Eitan is right, we have to "sell" our expertise. It's not that
>developers don't care, they don't know that they SHOULD care.
>
>-Reid
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>
>--
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.11/1161 - Release Date: 
>11/30/2007 12:12 PM

_______________________________________________
games_access mailing list
games_access at igda.org
http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access



From lynnmarentette at gmail.com  Sat Dec  1 12:06:58 2007
From: lynnmarentette at gmail.com (Lynn Marentette)
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 12:06:58 -0500
Subject: [games_access] Jonathan Chetwynd's comment, Reid's comment
In-Reply-To: <mailman.350.1196497080.1248.games_access@igda.org>
References: <mailman.350.1196497080.1248.games_access@igda.org>
Message-ID: <003001c8343c$9527ba30$c801000a@HOME>








Hi.

I think there are some barriers to game accessibility that go beyond
changing the attitudes among game developers.  I agree with Jonathan that we
need to focus on what other things we can do that will make a difference.


I just returned from a two-day assistive technology conference, and the only
thing related to game accessibility was the materials from a booth regarding
a community bowling program for people with visual impairments.  

Most of the software and devices discussed during workshops and demonstrated
in the vendor's booths were geared to helping people increase literacy and
language skills, carry out the hum-drum activities of daily living, access
the computer, or gain job skills.  Of course, these are important. 

Recreation and leisure activities were glaringly left out of the picture,
which troubles me.   There were many university students at this conference,
and it is a shame that they left the conference without information about
ways technology can support recreation and leisure activities- including
playing games!


My impression is that many of the AT folks are so focused on learning,
literacy, education, development of daily living skills, job skills, and so
forth, that they just don't have the inclination, or time, to think about
the recreation/leisure needs of their students or clients.  My colleague,
Kelly Cross, a speech and language therapist, noticed this, too.  

On Thursday evening, I attended the regional meeting of the Research
Triangle chapter of IGDA, held at Destineer Studios in Raleigh, N.C.  I went
to the presentation about leadership, which was worth my time.  I had a
chance to meet a woman who teaches computer programming and game design at a
community college. Many of her students were there.  

In hindsight, I could have asked this group to provide me with a few
brochures or short hand-outs, since there were probably 100-150 people in
attendance. I had a chance to talk with a couple of people who work at
Destineer and didn't get the impression that they would scoff at the ideas
behind game accessibility.

At any rate, this is what I can volunteer to do:

Kelly and I will be participating in a poster session at another AT
conference in February.  We thought we could showcase some of the things
that we're doing with our students from the "whole child" approach, which
includes addressing leisure and recreational needs.

Would there be a chance to obtain a few brochures about game accessibility
to share with others at the upcoming AT conference?

Thanks!

Lynn Marentette

Jonathan's comments:
Speaking from my experience, ten years is not long enough.
I can imagine it being another thirty....

Conferences are fine for meeting and greeting, those that came to  
Brighton will know it helps to place a face. They also raise general  
awareness, in an indefinable way. And it's also possible to generate  
business, though usually this is confirmed after the event.

However as I mentioned earlier there is much useful work to be done  
in publishing white papers, standards and guidelines. These are then  
available for interested parties at any time of their choosing. They  
also provide evidence of change, and something to "Shout About".

Indeed if there is some amazing breakthrough a conference is a  
fantastic place to be. But we're not there yet. I took a group of  
adults with learning disabilities to try the pre-alpha eye toy at GDC  
Europe one year, it was way ahead of the field at the time.

My feeling is that too much time is spent chatting and commiserating,  
which could be more usefully directed at conceiving, writing, editing  
and publishing documentation. Well usually I just let it pass ~:"

I happen to be acutely aware this documentation is needed. The web is  
moving from a model of static documents to one more nearly  
identifiable with gaming environments.

regards

Jonathan Chetwynd
Accessibility Consultant on Media Literacy and the Internet

http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access



------------------------------

Message: 2


Please, can we stop with the negative talk about GDC and the game
industry? I work in the game industry for LucasArts. Just last week I
talked to a highly respected programmer and he's 100% behind us and
wants to talk about what we can do to improve accessibility in our
games after our current milestone is finished. There are dozens of
people at LucasArts that support game accessibility. Nintendo totally
gets it, EA Games totally gets it with their Family Play modes in
their sports games. Peter Molyneux gets it, Will Wright... the list
goes on and on.

It's offensive to me when people of this SIG accuse developers of not
caring because WE DO CARE. The last thing you want to do is insult the
people you have to work with. It's the quickest way to turn them away
from our cause.

So, instead of complaining, lets do something about it! First,
everyone here needs to understand what it's like for developers and
why it's so hard for them to adopt accessibility features.

1. Limited financial resources - Games are very expensive to make and
any new features adds to the cost. Before you can add accessibility
features you must have a game and that's where most of the money is
spent first.

2. Limited time - Game development is incredibly complex and hard to
tame. No matter how much extra time gets budgeted into the production
schedule, it always runs out well before all tasks are complete. When
this happens, features get cut in order to save the core of the game
and again, without a game, there can't be any accessibility features.
Because this usually happens so late, there isn't enough time to work
on accessibility features before the game has to ship.

3. Limited information - Even if a developer was pro-active and
scheduled the development of accessibility features into the games'
development schedule, there's still a major lack of knowledge and
tools that enable them to do their job. The SIG has been thinking
about accessibility features for years and we have all the solutions,
but developers don't yet. We need to make ourselves known and readily
available to help them.

What can we do to solve these issues? We need to develop our
relationships with developers and offer our assistance. Our attempts
to work with GarageGames is a good start. When a new game is announced
we should contact them and offer our expertise.

We have GOT to get a website up so that we can communicate our
abilities and expertise to our target audiences (game developers).

But there are technical issues and many of us are volunteers and so
things move very slowly.

Several of us are writing guidelines for implementing certain features
but again, this is a slow process. Others are doing research. Going to
conferences is awesome. Writing articles to Gamasutra is great as
well.

Eitan is right, we have to "sell" our expertise. It's not that
developers don't care, they don't know that they SHOULD care.

-Reid


------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 00:17:57 -0800
From: "Eelke Folmer" <eelke.folmer at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News
To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List"
	<games_access at igda.org>
Message-ID:
	<836db6300712010017jfe1a297tfd5fc483093b545d at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

With so many interesting talks going on and such expensive prices for
the passes game developers rather go to talks on the geometry shaders
used in Assassin's creed then listen to our talks. Given the current
state of the games industry with the ever increasing budgets and high
risks of failure, many game companies struggle for survival, so there
is really no incentive for them to make games accessible UNLESS we can
sketch out the potential payoffs, which is hard for certain
disabilities. I think 10 or 20 years ago we could have had a bigger
impact since game development didn't involve so much money and risk.
Given that observation, why not focus on those who will shape the
future of the games industry? --> Independent game developers.

Cheers Eelke



*******************************************




From hinn at uiuc.edu  Sat Dec  1 12:58:01 2007
From: hinn at uiuc.edu (d. michelle hinn)
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 11:58:01 -0600
Subject: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News
Message-ID: <p0623091fc37750fab183@[130.126.29.21]>

Agreed, Barrie -- we need the support of more PEOPLE WORKING not just 
people saying what needs to be done. It's easy to come up with lists 
and lists of ideas -- we have no shortage of those. We do have a 
severe shortage of people willing to put in their personal time if 
they really do believe in fighting for this issue. I'd like to see 
ideas presented with "and this is what I will do to help get this 
started in the SIG..." or "here's what I just did and I hope SIG 
members can help this grow..." rather than "The SIG Should Do..."

Michelle

>>A little harsh, John perhaps?
>>
>>1. Has been covered to various degrees here:
>>
>>http://www.oneswitch.org.uk/2/ARTICLES/physical-barriers.htm
>>http://www.ics.forth.gr/hci/ua-games/game-over/
>>http://www.helpyouplay.com/welcome.html
>>
>>(and other places too).
>>
>>2. Is is a good point. But there's so few mainstream developers 
>>making deliberate accessibity efforts that take into account 
>>specific disabilities. Here's a list of some:
>>
>>http://www.oneswitch.org.uk/2/pioneers.htm
>>http://gameaccessibility.blogspot.com/
>>
>>3. Forums here:
>>
>>http://www.game-accessibility.com/forum/
>>http://www.retroremakes.com/forum2/forumdisplay.php?f=84
>>http://ablegamers.com/component/option,com_fireboard/Itemid,606/
>>
>>We need the support of more people though!
>>
>>Barrie
>>www.OneSwitch.org.uk
>>www.igda.org/accessibility
>>
>>----- Original Message ----- From: "John Bannick" <jbannick at 7128.com>
>>To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
>>Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 4:05 PM
>>Subject: Re: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News
>>
>>>Reid is right.
>>>
>>>There are developers right now who want their work to be accessible.
>>>
>>>This SIG could right now facilitate that by:
>>>
>>>1. Providing, distributing, and publicizing a concise, specific 
>>>set of functional criteria that define what means accessible.
>>>2. Compiling, publishing, and publicizing an annual list of which 
>>>companies and games meet those criteria.
>>>3. Maintaining a forum (The currently rather drifting Game 
>>>Accessibility Project comes to mind) where developers can go for 
>>>immediate help.
>>>
>>>I'm a developer of games that are accessible.
>>>Have shipped 22 different revenue-generating products in a wide 
>>>variety of vertical markets in the last 30 years.
>>>Am neither stupid nor lazy.
>>>And don't see any of the 3 above items.
>>>
>>>None of the 3 items should take long to build as a first cut.
>>>
>>>And if not from this SIG, then from where?
>>>
>>>John Bannick
>>>CTO
>>>7-128 Software
>>>
>>>
>>>At 02:26 AM 12/1/2007, you wrote:
>>>>Please, can we stop with the negative talk about GDC and the game
>>>>industry? I work in the game industry for LucasArts. Just last week I
>>>>talked to a highly respected programmer and he's 100% behind us and
>>>>wants to talk about what we can do to improve accessibility in our
>>>>games after our current milestone is finished. There are dozens of
>>>>people at LucasArts that support game accessibility. Nintendo totally
>>>>gets it, EA Games totally gets it with their Family Play modes in
>>>>their sports games. Peter Molyneux gets it, Will Wright... the list
>>>>goes on and on.
>>>>
>>>>It's offensive to me when people of this SIG accuse developers of not
>>>>caring because WE DO CARE. The last thing you want to do is insult the
>>>>people you have to work with. It's the quickest way to turn them away
>>>>from our cause.
>>>>
>>>>So, instead of complaining, lets do something about it! First,
>>>>everyone here needs to understand what it's like for developers and
>>>>why it's so hard for them to adopt accessibility features.
>>>>
>>>>1. Limited financial resources - Games are very expensive to make and
>>>>any new features adds to the cost. Before you can add accessibility
>>>>features you must have a game and that's where most of the money is
>>>>spent first.
>>>>
>>>>2. Limited time - Game development is incredibly complex and hard to
>>>>tame. No matter how much extra time gets budgeted into the production
>>>>schedule, it always runs out well before all tasks are complete. When
>>>>this happens, features get cut in order to save the core of the game
>>>>and again, without a game, there can't be any accessibility features.
>>>>Because this usually happens so late, there isn't enough time to work
>>>>on accessibility features before the game has to ship.
>>>>
>>>>3. Limited information - Even if a developer was pro-active and
>>>>scheduled the development of accessibility features into the games'
>>>>development schedule, there's still a major lack of knowledge and
>>>>tools that enable them to do their job. The SIG has been thinking
>>>>about accessibility features for years and we have all the solutions,
>>>>but developers don't yet. We need to make ourselves known and readily
>>>>available to help them.
>>>>
>>>>What can we do to solve these issues? We need to develop our
>>>>relationships with developers and offer our assistance. Our attempts
>>>>to work with GarageGames is a good start. When a new game is announced
>>>>we should contact them and offer our expertise.
>>>>
>>>>We have GOT to get a website up so that we can communicate our
>>>>abilities and expertise to our target audiences (game developers).
>>>>
>>>>But there are technical issues and many of us are volunteers and so
>>>>things move very slowly.
>>>>
>>>>Several of us are writing guidelines for implementing certain features
>>>>but again, this is a slow process. Others are doing research. Going to
>>>>conferences is awesome. Writing articles to Gamasutra is great as
>>>>well.
>>>>
>>>>Eitan is right, we have to "sell" our expertise. It's not that
>>>>developers don't care, they don't know that they SHOULD care.
>>>>
>>>>-Reid
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>games_access mailing list
>>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>--
>>>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>>>Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.11/1161 - Release Date: 
>>>>11/30/2007 12:12 PM
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>games_access mailing list
>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>games_access mailing list
>>games_access at igda.org
>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access



From arthit73 at cablespeed.com  Sat Dec  1 12:57:01 2007
From: arthit73 at cablespeed.com (Robert Florio)
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 12:57:01 -0500
Subject: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News
In-Reply-To: AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIwkLSwA
References: <006501c8312b$82902a60$6501a8c0@Inspiron><p0623090ac37223cd87e8@130.126.29.21><a6673b8d0711271244m7b678e79ye94e3a7688c020e2@mail.gmail.com><836db6300711300020r477e9abbldc4a6261effa5686@mail.gmail.com><008701c8337d$ac6de170$6501a8c0@Inspiron><p0623090fc3760c1b8d7d@130.126.29.21><30EC442C-11A9-416C-BE37-0540384E8C0A@pininteractive.com><000301c833bf$4c509a20$6501a8c0@Inspiron><3dd2060e0711302009g3635fb8eq5a12c64cb86a5972@mail.gmail.com><a6673b8d0711302326j60766890s4e63c3634b5f6bf5@mail.gmail.com>
	AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIwkLSwA
Message-ID: <003f01c83443$9344ec40$6501a8c0@Inspiron>

Hi John.  I hope that you don't think anyone thinks that consensus is going
around about " Am neither stupid nor lazy."

Robert

-----Original Message-----
From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
On Behalf Of John Bannick
Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 11:05 AM
To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
Subject: Re: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News

Reid is right.

There are developers right now who want their work to be accessible.

This SIG could right now facilitate that by:

1. Providing, distributing, and publicizing a concise, specific set of 
functional criteria that define what means accessible.
2. Compiling, publishing, and publicizing an annual list of which companies 
and games meet those criteria.
3. Maintaining a forum (The currently rather drifting Game Accessibility 
Project comes to mind) where developers can go for immediate help.

I'm a developer of games that are accessible.
Have shipped 22 different revenue-generating products in a wide variety of 
vertical markets in the last 30 years.
Am neither stupid nor lazy.
And don't see any of the 3 above items.

None of the 3 items should take long to build as a first cut.

And if not from this SIG, then from where?

John Bannick
CTO
7-128 Software


At 02:26 AM 12/1/2007, you wrote:
>Please, can we stop with the negative talk about GDC and the game
>industry? I work in the game industry for LucasArts. Just last week I
>talked to a highly respected programmer and he's 100% behind us and
>wants to talk about what we can do to improve accessibility in our
>games after our current milestone is finished. There are dozens of
>people at LucasArts that support game accessibility. Nintendo totally
>gets it, EA Games totally gets it with their Family Play modes in
>their sports games. Peter Molyneux gets it, Will Wright... the list
>goes on and on.
>
>It's offensive to me when people of this SIG accuse developers of not
>caring because WE DO CARE. The last thing you want to do is insult the
>people you have to work with. It's the quickest way to turn them away
>from our cause.
>
>So, instead of complaining, lets do something about it! First,
>everyone here needs to understand what it's like for developers and
>why it's so hard for them to adopt accessibility features.
>
>1. Limited financial resources - Games are very expensive to make and
>any new features adds to the cost. Before you can add accessibility
>features you must have a game and that's where most of the money is
>spent first.
>
>2. Limited time - Game development is incredibly complex and hard to
>tame. No matter how much extra time gets budgeted into the production
>schedule, it always runs out well before all tasks are complete. When
>this happens, features get cut in order to save the core of the game
>and again, without a game, there can't be any accessibility features.
>Because this usually happens so late, there isn't enough time to work
>on accessibility features before the game has to ship.
>
>3. Limited information - Even if a developer was pro-active and
>scheduled the development of accessibility features into the games'
>development schedule, there's still a major lack of knowledge and
>tools that enable them to do their job. The SIG has been thinking
>about accessibility features for years and we have all the solutions,
>but developers don't yet. We need to make ourselves known and readily
>available to help them.
>
>What can we do to solve these issues? We need to develop our
>relationships with developers and offer our assistance. Our attempts
>to work with GarageGames is a good start. When a new game is announced
>we should contact them and offer our expertise.
>
>We have GOT to get a website up so that we can communicate our
>abilities and expertise to our target audiences (game developers).
>
>But there are technical issues and many of us are volunteers and so
>things move very slowly.
>
>Several of us are writing guidelines for implementing certain features
>but again, this is a slow process. Others are doing research. Going to
>conferences is awesome. Writing articles to Gamasutra is great as
>well.
>
>Eitan is right, we have to "sell" our expertise. It's not that
>developers don't care, they don't know that they SHOULD care.
>
>-Reid
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>
>--
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.11/1161 - Release Date: 
>11/30/2007 12:12 PM

_______________________________________________
games_access mailing list
games_access at igda.org
http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access



From hinn at uiuc.edu  Sat Dec  1 12:58:28 2007
From: hinn at uiuc.edu (d. michelle hinn)
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 11:58:28 -0600
Subject: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News
Message-ID: <p06230920c3775131be6e@[130.126.29.21]>

All of the things John mentions are projects we have talked about 
and/or taken passes at (the top ten list from two years ago and now 
the new project that Barrie has started up, etc). Others have brought 
up other ideas that we've either done or attempted and then the 
projects lost momentum. All these things are great but there's a 
problem...these things also take active volunteers in the SIG and 
from that perspective our numbers are low. So we need people who are 
willing to put in the time and may/may not get any reimbursement for 
that time and every project cannot be started and maintained by me.

So instead of continuing to criticize ourselves (I know...I started 
it but I was really mad after killing myself over the proposals at 
deadline), the industry, the GDC etc...who from WITHIN this SIG can 
put in the time needed for these things AND actually follow through? 
No, it's not fair that we aren't in a position to reimburse people 
for time and that won't change in the near future. But it's something 
that will have to change and it will change but we can't just wait 
for that day to come (because it won't come if we don't put in the 
sweat equity now). People need to honestly commit the time and work 
because they believe in making change. Take some of that anger and 
tell me what YOU are willing to do to help us make change. Take 
ownership of something on behalf of the SIG. Ideas are great...but we 
need people who will put in the work so that the "SIG" is able to do 
these things.

So who will join in putting in some volunteer time so that these 
ideas can become reality?

Michelle

>>Reid is right.
>>
>>There are developers right now who want their work to be accessible.
>>
>>This SIG could right now facilitate that by:
>>
>>1. Providing, distributing, and publicizing a concise, specific set 
>>of functional criteria that define what means accessible.
>>2. Compiling, publishing, and publicizing an annual list of which 
>>companies and games meet those criteria.
>>3. Maintaining a forum (The currently rather drifting Game 
>>Accessibility Project comes to mind) where developers can go for 
>>immediate help.
>>
>>I'm a developer of games that are accessible.
>>Have shipped 22 different revenue-generating products in a wide 
>>variety of vertical markets in the last 30 years.
>>Am neither stupid nor lazy.
>>And don't see any of the 3 above items.
>>
>>None of the 3 items should take long to build as a first cut.
>>
>>And if not from this SIG, then from where?
>>
>>John Bannick
>>CTO
>>7-128 Software
>>
>>
>>At 02:26 AM 12/1/2007, you wrote:
>>>Please, can we stop with the negative talk about GDC and the game
>>>industry? I work in the game industry for LucasArts. Just last week I
>>>talked to a highly respected programmer and he's 100% behind us and
>>>wants to talk about what we can do to improve accessibility in our
>>>games after our current milestone is finished. There are dozens of
>>>people at LucasArts that support game accessibility. Nintendo totally
>>>gets it, EA Games totally gets it with their Family Play modes in
>>>their sports games. Peter Molyneux gets it, Will Wright... the list
>>>goes on and on.
>>>
>>>It's offensive to me when people of this SIG accuse developers of not
>>>caring because WE DO CARE. The last thing you want to do is insult the
>>>people you have to work with. It's the quickest way to turn them away
>>>from our cause.
>>>
>>>So, instead of complaining, lets do something about it! First,
>>>everyone here needs to understand what it's like for developers and
>>>why it's so hard for them to adopt accessibility features.
>>>
>>>1. Limited financial resources - Games are very expensive to make and
>>>any new features adds to the cost. Before you can add accessibility
>>>features you must have a game and that's where most of the money is
>>>spent first.
>>>
>>>2. Limited time - Game development is incredibly complex and hard to
>>>tame. No matter how much extra time gets budgeted into the production
>>>schedule, it always runs out well before all tasks are complete. When
>>>this happens, features get cut in order to save the core of the game
>>>and again, without a game, there can't be any accessibility features.
>>>Because this usually happens so late, there isn't enough time to work
>>>on accessibility features before the game has to ship.
>>>
>>>3. Limited information - Even if a developer was pro-active and
>>>scheduled the development of accessibility features into the games'
>>>development schedule, there's still a major lack of knowledge and
>>>tools that enable them to do their job. The SIG has been thinking
>>>about accessibility features for years and we have all the solutions,
>>>but developers don't yet. We need to make ourselves known and readily
>>>available to help them.
>>>
>>>What can we do to solve these issues? We need to develop our
>>>relationships with developers and offer our assistance. Our attempts
>>>to work with GarageGames is a good start. When a new game is announced
>>>we should contact them and offer our expertise.
>>>
>>>We have GOT to get a website up so that we can communicate our
>>>abilities and expertise to our target audiences (game developers).
>>>
>>>But there are technical issues and many of us are volunteers and so
>>>things move very slowly.
>>>
>>>Several of us are writing guidelines for implementing certain features
>>>but again, this is a slow process. Others are doing research. Going to
>>>conferences is awesome. Writing articles to Gamasutra is great as
>>>well.
>>>
>>>Eitan is right, we have to "sell" our expertise. It's not that
>>>developers don't care, they don't know that they SHOULD care.
>>>
>>>-Reid
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>games_access mailing list
>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>
>>>
>>>--
>>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>>Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.11/1161 - Release Date: 
>>>11/30/2007 12:12 PM
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>games_access mailing list
>>games_access at igda.org
>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access



From arthit73 at cablespeed.com  Sat Dec  1 12:49:48 2007
From: arthit73 at cablespeed.com (Robert Florio)
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 12:49:48 -0500
Subject: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News
In-Reply-To: AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIykKywA
References: <006501c8312b$82902a60$6501a8c0@Inspiron><p0623090ac37223cd87e8@130.126.29.21><a6673b8d0711271244m7b678e79ye94e3a7688c020e2@mail.gmail.com><836db6300711300020r477e9abbldc4a6261effa5686@mail.gmail.com><008701c8337d$ac6de170$6501a8c0@Inspiron><p0623090fc3760c1b8d7d@130.126.29.21><30EC442C-11A9-416C-BE37-0540384E8C0A@pininteractive.com>
	AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIykKywA
Message-ID: <003d01c83442$913c8e90$6501a8c0@Inspiron>

On the idea of independent developers.  Strange attractors 2 has a kick ass
new game.  I would think if they could have had their own conference section
if they make it big, we could tie in our points with their conference and
have a huge platform to run on.

Robert

-----Original Message-----
From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
On Behalf Of Eelke Folmer
Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 3:18 AM
To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
Subject: Re: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News

With so many interesting talks going on and such expensive prices for
the passes game developers rather go to talks on the geometry shaders
used in Assassin's creed then listen to our talks. Given the current
state of the games industry with the ever increasing budgets and high
risks of failure, many game companies struggle for survival, so there
is really no incentive for them to make games accessible UNLESS we can
sketch out the potential payoffs, which is hard for certain
disabilities. I think 10 or 20 years ago we could have had a bigger
impact since game development didn't involve so much money and risk.
Given that observation, why not focus on those who will shape the
future of the games industry? --> Independent game developers.

Cheers Eelke




On 30/11/2007, Thomas Westin <thomas at pininteractive.com> wrote:
> Hi
>
> just want to add I've started to become a bit cynical about GDC after four
> years of low number of attendees. I'm also disappointed by this, but for
> other reasons than the GDC judges
>
> Let's not forget GDC is just one conference, although the biggest it's
> perhaps not the best - low numbers of attendees is really not our problem,
> it's the industry's problem, that they can't see the importance of
> accessibility for the future of the industry. We're here to help, but
since
> the industry (with a few exceptions/individuals) isn't listening at GDC,
> they do listen elsewhere.
>
> I'd say we should aim for other conferences where people have interest and
> time to listen to us. FuturePlay was a great success; let's focus on
similar
> conferences where we can succeed rather than getting disappointed at GDC.
>
> /Thomas
>
>
>
> 30 nov 2007 kl. 20.00 skrev d. michelle hinn:
>
>
> Well, there's lots to do, that's for sure. We also can't forget that some
of
> us (you, me, Richard, others) were hit by the GDC flu and/or had to go to
> hospital (my kidney nightmare) and the selection committee doesn't allow
you
> to petition for that. That DRAMATICALLY impacted a lot of our sessions and
> Idol went way differently than we'd planned for. So we had a lot of bad
luck
> last year that isn't the fault of anyone -- but it did impact how our
> proposals were viewed.
>
>
> As a group, we just need to remember that we are a group. We are a
volunteer
> group. But we are a group and we do a lot! And every time we get a chance
we
> have to remember to talk about the group. Sure, we all have individual
> goals, jobs, lives, etc -- but if we all remembered to mention that we are
a
> part of this group, this movement, I think it would go a long
> way....especially when it's something good! :)
>
>
> Michelle
>
>
> Sounds like a challenge.  It's too bad there was a bad reputation now
about
> our group.  Just feels the fighter though to get the word out about our
> initiatives even more.  Still baffles my mind like game accessibility is
> just not excepted at all by the mainstream game design community.  Until
> someday, some mainstream game designers are injured and can't find their
> favorite games anymore and then we'll see.  But apparently the last 20
years
> they've all been pretty invulnerable.
>
> Robert
>
>  ________________________________
>
> From: games_access-bounces at igda.org
> [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of d.
> michelle hinn
>  Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 12:48 PM
>  To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
>  Subject: Re: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News
>
> Hey,
>
> The only feedback I've gotten was informal from people I know who work
there
> -- the sessions weren't judged on content as much as based on low numbers
of
> attendees and a lot of bad press from GDC07 (many people on the advisory
> boards for each section (audio, design, etc) gossiped, Idol participants
> complained...and, yeah, that web archive was mentioned -- google, etc are
> not our friends). So we live and learn. I'm not going to go into specifics
> because it will hurt us to go into it and we don't need that -- There's
too
> much to do and we cannot spend the little time we have until GDC08 talking
> about what happened after GDC07. I know I brought it up because, yes, I
was
> angry that morning because the low number of acceptances for this year was
> what I was afraid might happen. But I was also angry because I really,
> really killed myself over the proposals for this year.
>
> Unfortunately, it's not academia so they won't ever provide us with
concrete
> comments or a feedback page about what we could have done
better/differently
> or even what they hated. And it's not a blind review either. Basically
this
> year we need to atone and re-earn respect as a group. >From what I've
heard,
> however, if you have never had a proposal accepted that you turned in,
they
> were EVEN MORE likely to not take a chance on your proposal...so I guess
we
> are lucky that we got three sessions (two were solicited but even those
went
> through a bit of a review as well).
>
> So when you say you can pay your own way...do you mean that you want to
buy
> your own pass?
>
> We'll have accessibility arcade and the meet and greet to show some stuff
at
> -- we won't have as much room but we should have stuff for people to look
at
> and some of the stuff are great conversation starters. So we won't need as
> much this year -- my broken controller (the Quad Controller that has now
> been broken TWICE by airport security so it really looks bad) is quite the
> conversation piece. I think I could have just carried that around at
> FuturePlay all day to get the word out about accessibility! :D
>
> Michelle
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
>
> I'm sorry to hear about the passes. I'll be driving from Reno to SF so I
can
> take all my accessible hardware if need be. (If there is space to demo
> them?)
>
>
>
> Michelle, did they provide us with specific feedback on those proposals?
> what were the main criteria for not accepting them?
>
>
>
>
> I can pay my own way to GDC since I have some money left from my grant
that
> I need to spend before august, after UNR decided not to approve my travel
> request to Futureplay. Besides it's cheap for me to go there anyway.
>
>
>
> Cheers Eelke
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 27/11/2007, Reid Kimball <reid at rbkdesign.com> wrote:
> While this is isn't the ideal situation it's not a total loss for the
>  group and we have to work within our resources to do the best we can.
>
>  If only three of us can come, then I suggest we don't bring any
>  hardware accessories. Instead, let's create flyer's and brochures
>  about the accessories. Maybe even produce videos of people using them.
>
>  I also recommend that because we are a smaller group this year, we try
>  to have personal meetings with game developers to talk about how we
>  can help them.
>
>  -Reid
>
>  On Nov 27, 2007 12:25 PM, d. michelle hinn < hinn at uiuc.edu> wrote:
>  >
>  >
>  > Ok...
>  >
>  >
>  > So remember when I was writing for days straight for all the GDC
> submissions
>  > without a whole lot of help? All submissions have been accepted now so
we
>  > have some bad, bad music to face. I never did put up all the final
>  > submissions on the WIKI -- I was too tired after the deadline and it
> doesn't
>  > matter as much now. I'll get them up for archive reasons.
>  >
>  >
>  > Well...we've been hit by reality this year. I hate to bring this up
again
>  > but I feel that I have to -- A lot of public word got out about our big
>  > post-GDC fight last year (it's archived on the net...). I'm not saying
> that
>  > it was any one person or any one comment -- I can't even look at the
> archive
>
> > without beating myself up about it because I felt like I had really,
> really
>  > let everyone down. I got the proposals and the passes but I couldn't
make
>  > our showing work in the best way possible. I couldn't be everywhere
>  > advertising our sessions. I was far from perfect, we were all far from
>  > perfect, we had big dreams but not enough people doing the work. I'm
not
>  > saying everything goes back to that but we had a big year last year,
had
>  > more than enough passes for everyone...and that was then. It's hard for
>  > me...well, it's very sad for me to realize that we had it so great last
> year
>  > and we didn't recognize it, we didn't have enough real help when push
> came
>  > to shove (or suitcase pulling came to suitcase pulling back and forth
> every
>  > day to the convention center). All the "should of" "would have" "could
> have"
>  > things are coming back to haunt me. I stopped flogging myself about
this
> a
>  > while ago and thought that I had come to peace with it but I realize
now
>  > that I still haven't stopped flogging myself about not being
superhuman.
> I
>  > know. I know. Stop it.
>  >
>  >
>  > So...we only had one proposal accepted. All the acceptances are in now.
>  > Reid's [cc] poster (downgraded from a 20 minute talk but I think this
> will
>  > get more people) submission.
>  > [
> https://www.cmpevents.com/GD08/a.asp?option=C&V=11&SessID=6456
> ]
>  >
>  >
>  > The other two were IGDA solicited (ie, they did not go through the
> system)
>  > -- accessibility arcade and the SIG meet and greet. That buys us two
more
>  > passes -- one is mine since I'm SIG chair and one was for Eelke for the
> meet
>  > and greet because he helped on the proposals.
>  >
>  >
>  > I'm going to try and talk to everyone I can think of to try and get a
few
>  > more passes because one of those is a roundtable and was solicited by
> IGDA
>  > (that was NOT in the proposal process) and it's accessibility arcade.
To
>  > pull that off, we need more people. I hope that this gets us a few more
>  > passes.
>  >
>  >
>  > The booth is out of question unless we can get some SERIOUS money FAST.
I
> am
>  > trying every angle I can think of but so far no luck. The booth SPACE
> costs
>  > $5100 for 10x10 booth -- add on about $3000 more for the "required"
> minimum
>  > of stuff we have to provide...no way. IF we get an expo booth it will
get
> us
>  > more EXPO passes, which will restrict those with these passes to just
> being
>  > able to get into the expo area (no talks, etc). That's the reality.
>  >
>  >
>  > I'm sorry to have to tell you this and I'm sorry for the anger/sadness
in
> my
> > tone. We are not going to be able to bring everyone we want to. I cannot
> say
>  > when or if I'll hear if we can get more passes. I know some of you have
>  > already made flight and hotel arrangements. If you are one of these
> people,
>  > please check with your airlines, etc for the last date to cancel
without
>  > penalty.
>  >
>  >
>  > So three passes...that's it. That's where we are at. I will let you
know
> if
>  > the pass situation changes but for now it doesn't look great. We now
have
>  > fifteen fewer passes so those of us in attendance are going to have to
> try
>  > and talk our asses off at GDC.
>  >
>  >
>  > Michelle
>  > _______________________________________________
>  > games_access mailing list
>  > games_access at igda.org
>  > http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>  >
>  >
>  _______________________________________________
>  games_access mailing list
>  games_access at igda.org
>  http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>
>
>
>  --
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>  Eelke Folmer                           Assistant Professor
>  Department of CS&E/171
>  University of Nevada              Reno, Nevada 89557
>  Game interaction design        www.helpyouplay.com
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  games_access mailing list
>
> games_access at igda.org
>  http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  games_access mailing list
>  games_access at igda.org
>  http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>


-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eelke Folmer                           Assistant Professor
Department of CS&E/171
University of Nevada              Reno, Nevada 89557
Game interaction design        www.helpyouplay.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
games_access mailing list
games_access at igda.org
http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access



From hinn at uiuc.edu  Sat Dec  1 12:59:24 2007
From: hinn at uiuc.edu (d. michelle hinn)
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 11:59:24 -0600
Subject: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News
In-Reply-To: <003e01c83442$efbce8c0$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
References: <006501c8312b$82902a60$6501a8c0@Inspiron><p0623090ac37223cd87e8@130.126.29
	.21><a6673b8d0711271244m7b678e79ye94e3a7688c020e2@mail.gmail.com><836db630
	0711300020r477e9abbldc4a6261effa5686@mail.gmail.com><008701c8337d$ac6de170
	$6501a8c0@Inspiron><p0623090fc3760c1b8d7d@130.126.29.21><30EC442C-11A9-416
	C-BE37-0540384E8C0A@pininteractive.com><000301c833bf$4c509a20$6501a8c0@Ins
	piron><3dd2060e0711302009g3635fb8eq5a12c64cb86a5972@mail.gmail.com><a6673b
	8d0711302326j60766890s4e63c3634b5f6bf5@mail.gmail.com>
	AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIwkLSwA
	<003e01c83442$efbce8c0$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
Message-ID: <p06230921c377514dc4fc@[130.126.29.21]>

Who will be a part of "We"?

Michelle

>Hi John.  With what you said below I think you hit the nail on the head.
>
>Then we definitely need a web site and a forum.
>Robert
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
>On Behalf Of John Bannick
>Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 11:05 AM
>To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
>Subject: Re: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News
>
>Reid is right.
>
>There are developers right now who want their work to be accessible.
>
>This SIG could right now facilitate that by:
>
>1. Providing, distributing, and publicizing a concise, specific set of
>functional criteria that define what means accessible.
>2. Compiling, publishing, and publicizing an annual list of which companies
>and games meet those criteria.
>3. Maintaining a forum (The currently rather drifting Game Accessibility
>Project comes to mind) where developers can go for immediate help.
>
>I'm a developer of games that are accessible.
>Have shipped 22 different revenue-generating products in a wide variety of
>vertical markets in the last 30 years.
>Am neither stupid nor lazy.
>And don't see any of the 3 above items.
>
>None of the 3 items should take long to build as a first cut.
>
>And if not from this SIG, then from where?
>
>John Bannick
>CTO
>7-128 Software
>
>
>At 02:26 AM 12/1/2007, you wrote:
>>Please, can we stop with the negative talk about GDC and the game
>>industry? I work in the game industry for LucasArts. Just last week I
>>talked to a highly respected programmer and he's 100% behind us and
>>wants to talk about what we can do to improve accessibility in our
>>games after our current milestone is finished. There are dozens of
>>people at LucasArts that support game accessibility. Nintendo totally
>>gets it, EA Games totally gets it with their Family Play modes in
>>their sports games. Peter Molyneux gets it, Will Wright... the list
>>goes on and on.
>>
>>It's offensive to me when people of this SIG accuse developers of not
>>caring because WE DO CARE. The last thing you want to do is insult the
>>people you have to work with. It's the quickest way to turn them away
>>from our cause.
>>
>>So, instead of complaining, lets do something about it! First,
>>everyone here needs to understand what it's like for developers and
>>why it's so hard for them to adopt accessibility features.
>>
>>1. Limited financial resources - Games are very expensive to make and
>>any new features adds to the cost. Before you can add accessibility
>>features you must have a game and that's where most of the money is
>>spent first.
>>
>>2. Limited time - Game development is incredibly complex and hard to
>>tame. No matter how much extra time gets budgeted into the production
>>schedule, it always runs out well before all tasks are complete. When
>>this happens, features get cut in order to save the core of the game
>>and again, without a game, there can't be any accessibility features.
>>Because this usually happens so late, there isn't enough time to work
>>on accessibility features before the game has to ship.
>>
>>3. Limited information - Even if a developer was pro-active and
>>scheduled the development of accessibility features into the games'
>>development schedule, there's still a major lack of knowledge and
>>tools that enable them to do their job. The SIG has been thinking
>>about accessibility features for years and we have all the solutions,
>>but developers don't yet. We need to make ourselves known and readily
>>available to help them.
>>
>>What can we do to solve these issues? We need to develop our
>>relationships with developers and offer our assistance. Our attempts
>>to work with GarageGames is a good start. When a new game is announced
>>we should contact them and offer our expertise.
>>
>>We have GOT to get a website up so that we can communicate our
>>abilities and expertise to our target audiences (game developers).
>>
>>But there are technical issues and many of us are volunteers and so
>  >things move very slowly.
>>
>>Several of us are writing guidelines for implementing certain features
>>but again, this is a slow process. Others are doing research. Going to
>>conferences is awesome. Writing articles to Gamasutra is great as
>>well.
>>
>>Eitan is right, we have to "sell" our expertise. It's not that
>>developers don't care, they don't know that they SHOULD care.
>>
>>-Reid
>>_______________________________________________
>>games_access mailing list
>>games_access at igda.org
>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>
>>
>>--
>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.11/1161 - Release Date:
>>11/30/2007 12:12 PM
>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access



From arthit73 at cablespeed.com  Sat Dec  1 13:01:14 2007
From: arthit73 at cablespeed.com (Robert Florio)
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 13:01:14 -0500
Subject: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News
In-Reply-To: AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIxELiwA
References: <006501c8312b$82902a60$6501a8c0@Inspiron><p0623090ac37223cd87e8@130.126.29.21><a6673b8d0711271244m7b678e79ye94e3a7688c020e2@mail.gmail.com><836db6300711300020r477e9abbldc4a6261effa5686@mail.gmail.com><008701c8337d$ac6de170$6501a8c0@Inspiron><p0623090fc3760c1b8d7d@130.126.29.21><30EC442C-11A9-416C-BE37-0540384E8C0A@pininteractive.com><000301c833bf$4c509a20$6501a8c0@Inspiron><3dd2060e0711302009g3635fb8eq5a12c64cb86a5972@mail.gmail.com><a6673b8d0711302326j60766890s4e63c3634b5f6bf5@mail.gmail.com><6.1.0.6.2.20071201103852.01d66f38@enigami.com>
	AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIxELiwA
Message-ID: <004001c83444$29c7a770$6501a8c0@Inspiron>

Hi Michelle.  

You said about volunteering who can on the time?

I certainly would be willing to work on with other people content for a web
site but I don't know how to build web sites from scratch.

And I would be willing to be a full-time member on the forum for moderating.

What does this mean a new web site with a completely new forum set up
because what happened to www.gameaccessibility.com .

>From the suggestions John made.

Robert

-----Original Message-----
From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
On Behalf Of d. michelle hinn
Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 12:24 PM
To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
Subject: Re: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News

All of the things John mentions are projects we have talked about 
and/or taken passes at (the top ten list from two years ago and now 
the new project that Barrie has started up, etc). Others have brought 
up other ideas that we've either done or attempted and then the 
projects lost momentum. All these things are great but there's a 
problem...these things also take active volunteers in the SIG and 
from that perspective our numbers are low. So we need people who are 
willing to put in the time and may/may not get any reimbursement for 
that time and every project cannot be started and maintained by me.

So instead of continuing to criticize ourselves (I know...I started 
it but I was really mad after killing myself over the proposals at 
deadline), the industry, the GDC etc...who from WITHIN this SIG can 
put in the time needed for these things AND actually follow through? 
No, it's not fair that we aren't in a position to reimburse people 
for time and that won't change in the near future. But it's something 
that will have to change and it will change but we can't just wait 
for that day to come (because it won't come if we don't put in the 
sweat equity now). People need to honestly commit the time and work 
because they believe in making change. Take some of that anger and 
tell me what YOU are willing to do to help us make change. Take 
ownership of something on behalf of the SIG. Ideas are great...but we 
need people who will put in the work so that the "SIG" is able to do 
these things.

So who will join in putting in some volunteer time so that these 
ideas can become reality?

Michelle

>Reid is right.
>
>There are developers right now who want their work to be accessible.
>
>This SIG could right now facilitate that by:
>
>1. Providing, distributing, and publicizing a concise, specific set 
>of functional criteria that define what means accessible.
>2. Compiling, publishing, and publicizing an annual list of which 
>companies and games meet those criteria.
>3. Maintaining a forum (The currently rather drifting Game 
>Accessibility Project comes to mind) where developers can go for 
>immediate help.
>
>I'm a developer of games that are accessible.
>Have shipped 22 different revenue-generating products in a wide 
>variety of vertical markets in the last 30 years.
>Am neither stupid nor lazy.
>And don't see any of the 3 above items.
>
>None of the 3 items should take long to build as a first cut.
>
>And if not from this SIG, then from where?
>
>John Bannick
>CTO
>7-128 Software
>
>
>At 02:26 AM 12/1/2007, you wrote:
>>Please, can we stop with the negative talk about GDC and the game
>>industry? I work in the game industry for LucasArts. Just last week I
>>talked to a highly respected programmer and he's 100% behind us and
>>wants to talk about what we can do to improve accessibility in our
>>games after our current milestone is finished. There are dozens of
>>people at LucasArts that support game accessibility. Nintendo totally
>>gets it, EA Games totally gets it with their Family Play modes in
>>their sports games. Peter Molyneux gets it, Will Wright... the list
>>goes on and on.
>>
>>It's offensive to me when people of this SIG accuse developers of not
>>caring because WE DO CARE. The last thing you want to do is insult the
>>people you have to work with. It's the quickest way to turn them away
>>from our cause.
>>
>>So, instead of complaining, lets do something about it! First,
>>everyone here needs to understand what it's like for developers and
>>why it's so hard for them to adopt accessibility features.
>>
>>1. Limited financial resources - Games are very expensive to make and
>>any new features adds to the cost. Before you can add accessibility
>>features you must have a game and that's where most of the money is
>>spent first.
>>
>>2. Limited time - Game development is incredibly complex and hard to
>>tame. No matter how much extra time gets budgeted into the production
>>schedule, it always runs out well before all tasks are complete. When
>>this happens, features get cut in order to save the core of the game
>>and again, without a game, there can't be any accessibility features.
>>Because this usually happens so late, there isn't enough time to work
>>on accessibility features before the game has to ship.
>>
>>3. Limited information - Even if a developer was pro-active and
>>scheduled the development of accessibility features into the games'
>>development schedule, there's still a major lack of knowledge and
>>tools that enable them to do their job. The SIG has been thinking
>>about accessibility features for years and we have all the solutions,
>>but developers don't yet. We need to make ourselves known and readily
>>available to help them.
>>
>>What can we do to solve these issues? We need to develop our
>>relationships with developers and offer our assistance. Our attempts
>>to work with GarageGames is a good start. When a new game is announced
>>we should contact them and offer our expertise.
>>
>>We have GOT to get a website up so that we can communicate our
>>abilities and expertise to our target audiences (game developers).
>>
>>But there are technical issues and many of us are volunteers and so
>>things move very slowly.
>>
>>Several of us are writing guidelines for implementing certain features
>>but again, this is a slow process. Others are doing research. Going to
>>conferences is awesome. Writing articles to Gamasutra is great as
>>well.
>>
>>Eitan is right, we have to "sell" our expertise. It's not that
>>developers don't care, they don't know that they SHOULD care.
>>
>>-Reid
>>_______________________________________________
>>games_access mailing list
>>games_access at igda.org
>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>
>>
>>--
>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.11/1161 - Release Date: 
>>11/30/2007 12:12 PM
>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access

_______________________________________________
games_access mailing list
games_access at igda.org
http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access



From hinn at uiuc.edu  Sat Dec  1 13:05:08 2007
From: hinn at uiuc.edu (d. michelle hinn)
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 12:05:08 -0600
Subject: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News
In-Reply-To: <003c01c83442$28257b10$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
References: <006501c8312b$82902a60$6501a8c0@Inspiron><p0623090ac37223cd87e8@130.126.29
	.21><a6673b8d0711271244m7b678e79ye94e3a7688c020e2@mail.gmail.com><836db630
	0711300020r477e9abbldc4a6261effa5686@mail.gmail.com><008701c8337d$ac6de170
	$6501a8c0@Inspiron><p0623090fc3760c1b8d7d@130.126.29.21><30EC442C-11A9-416
	C-BE37-0540384E8C0A@pininteractive.com>	AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIykKywA
	<003c01c83442$28257b10$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
Message-ID: <p06230922c3775181d12e@[130.126.29.21]>

I agree and this is something I did try to do this year with one of 
our proposals but the session wasn't accepted -- so both the indie 
devs and the SIG got rejected. The idea was to have a panel of 
award-winning/nominated indie games that are also accessible (like 
Strange Attractors).

So this year we did try for the first time to pull this off but the 
approach needs to be re-thought out. So we try again next year and at 
more indie oriented conferences.

Michelle

>I think that's an excellent perspective Eelke.  Coming to the independent
>people instead.
>
>I'm glad you brought this up I think in the back of my mind I was thinking
>this might be the reason of low attendance because it cost so much for the
>passes they'd rather spend their time on what they know they're looking for
>to learn instead of something they're not sure of will benefit them.
>
>Which gives me an idea.
>
>Instead of going in alone on these conferences lie not trying to collaborate
>with some independent publishers at the conferences at their own speeches
>seeing if they will tie in with us the accessibility because they already
>have their huge crowd, it will be a way for everyone in the crowd who might
>want to view or see what we have to say, but they'd rather be somewhere else
>learning it from a direct example.  In the same room where they want to be
>first.
>
>Robert
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
>On Behalf Of Eelke Folmer
>Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 3:18 AM
>To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
>Subject: Re: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News
>
>With so many interesting talks going on and such expensive prices for
>the passes game developers rather go to talks on the geometry shaders
>used in Assassin's creed then listen to our talks. Given the current
>state of the games industry with the ever increasing budgets and high
>risks of failure, many game companies struggle for survival, so there
>is really no incentive for them to make games accessible UNLESS we can
>sketch out the potential payoffs, which is hard for certain
>disabilities. I think 10 or 20 years ago we could have had a bigger
>impact since game development didn't involve so much money and risk.
>Given that observation, why not focus on those who will shape the
>future of the games industry? --> Independent game developers.
>
>Cheers Eelke
>
>
>
>
>On 30/11/2007, Thomas Westin <thomas at pininteractive.com> wrote:
>>  Hi
>>
>>  just want to add I've started to become a bit cynical about GDC after four
>>  years of low number of attendees. I'm also disappointed by this, but for
>>  other reasons than the GDC judges
>>
>>  Let's not forget GDC is just one conference, although the biggest it's
>>  perhaps not the best - low numbers of attendees is really not our problem,
>>  it's the industry's problem, that they can't see the importance of
>>  accessibility for the future of the industry. We're here to help, but
>since
>>  the industry (with a few exceptions/individuals) isn't listening at GDC,
>>  they do listen elsewhere.
>>
>>  I'd say we should aim for other conferences where people have interest and
>>  time to listen to us. FuturePlay was a great success; let's focus on
>similar
>>  conferences where we can succeed rather than getting disappointed at GDC.
>>
>>  /Thomas
>>
>>
>>
>>  30 nov 2007 kl. 20.00 skrev d. michelle hinn:
>>
>>
>>  Well, there's lots to do, that's for sure. We also can't forget that some
>of
>>  us (you, me, Richard, others) were hit by the GDC flu and/or had to go to
>>  hospital (my kidney nightmare) and the selection committee doesn't allow
>you
>>  to petition for that. That DRAMATICALLY impacted a lot of our sessions and
>>  Idol went way differently than we'd planned for. So we had a lot of bad
>luck
>>  last year that isn't the fault of anyone -- but it did impact how our
>>  proposals were viewed.
>>
>>
>>  As a group, we just need to remember that we are a group. We are a
>volunteer
>>  group. But we are a group and we do a lot! And every time we get a chance
>we
>>  have to remember to talk about the group. Sure, we all have individual
>>  goals, jobs, lives, etc -- but if we all remembered to mention that we are
>a
>>  part of this group, this movement, I think it would go a long
>>  way....especially when it's something good! :)
>>
>>
>>  Michelle
>>
>>
>>  Sounds like a challenge.  It's too bad there was a bad reputation now
>about
>>  our group.  Just feels the fighter though to get the word out about our
>>  initiatives even more.  Still baffles my mind like game accessibility is
>>  just not excepted at all by the mainstream game design community.  Until
>>  someday, some mainstream game designers are injured and can't find their
>>  favorite games anymore and then we'll see.  But apparently the last 20
>years
>>  they've all been pretty invulnerable.
>>
>>  Robert
>>
>>   ________________________________
>>
>>  From: games_access-bounces at igda.org
>>  [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of d.
>>  michelle hinn
>>   Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 12:48 PM
>>   To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
>>   Subject: Re: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News
>>
>>  Hey,
>>
>>  The only feedback I've gotten was informal from people I know who work
>there
>>  -- the sessions weren't judged on content as much as based on low numbers
>of
>>  attendees and a lot of bad press from GDC07 (many people on the advisory
>>  boards for each section (audio, design, etc) gossiped, Idol participants
>>  complained...and, yeah, that web archive was mentioned -- google, etc are
>>  not our friends). So we live and learn. I'm not going to go into specifics
>>  because it will hurt us to go into it and we don't need that -- There's
>too
>>  much to do and we cannot spend the little time we have until GDC08 talking
>>  about what happened after GDC07. I know I brought it up because, yes, I
>was
>>  angry that morning because the low number of acceptances for this year was
>>  what I was afraid might happen. But I was also angry because I really,
>>  really killed myself over the proposals for this year.
>>
>>  Unfortunately, it's not academia so they won't ever provide us with
>concrete
>>  comments or a feedback page about what we could have done
>better/differently
>>  or even what they hated. And it's not a blind review either. Basically
>this
>>  year we need to atone and re-earn respect as a group. >From what I've
>heard,
>>  however, if you have never had a proposal accepted that you turned in,
>they
>>  were EVEN MORE likely to not take a chance on your proposal...so I guess
>we
>>  are lucky that we got three sessions (two were solicited but even those
>went
>>  through a bit of a review as well).
>>
>>  So when you say you can pay your own way...do you mean that you want to
>buy
>>  your own pass?
>>
>>  We'll have accessibility arcade and the meet and greet to show some stuff
>at
>>  -- we won't have as much room but we should have stuff for people to look
>at
>>  and some of the stuff are great conversation starters. So we won't need as
>>  much this year -- my broken controller (the Quad Controller that has now
>>  been broken TWICE by airport security so it really looks bad) is quite the
>>  conversation piece. I think I could have just carried that around at
>>  FuturePlay all day to get the word out about accessibility! :D
>>
>>  Michelle
>>
>>
>>  Hi,
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  I'm sorry to hear about the passes. I'll be driving from Reno to SF so I
>can
>>  take all my accessible hardware if need be. (If there is space to demo
>>  them?)
>>
>>
>>
>>  Michelle, did they provide us with specific feedback on those proposals?
>>  what were the main criteria for not accepting them?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  I can pay my own way to GDC since I have some money left from my grant
>that
>>  I need to spend before august, after UNR decided not to approve my travel
>>  request to Futureplay. Besides it's cheap for me to go there anyway.
>>
>>
>>
>>  Cheers Eelke
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  On 27/11/2007, Reid Kimball <reid at rbkdesign.com> wrote:
>>  While this is isn't the ideal situation it's not a total loss for the
>>   group and we have to work within our resources to do the best we can.
>  >
>>   If only three of us can come, then I suggest we don't bring any
>>   hardware accessories. Instead, let's create flyer's and brochures
>>   about the accessories. Maybe even produce videos of people using them.
>>
>>   I also recommend that because we are a smaller group this year, we try
>>   to have personal meetings with game developers to talk about how we
>>   can help them.
>>
>>   -Reid
>>
>>   On Nov 27, 2007 12:25 PM, d. michelle hinn < hinn at uiuc.edu> wrote:
>>   >
>>   >
>>   > Ok...
>>   >
>>   >
>>   > So remember when I was writing for days straight for all the GDC
>>  submissions
>>   > without a whole lot of help? All submissions have been accepted now so
>we
>>   > have some bad, bad music to face. I never did put up all the final
>>   > submissions on the WIKI -- I was too tired after the deadline and it
>>  doesn't
>>   > matter as much now. I'll get them up for archive reasons.
>>   >
>>   >
>>   > Well...we've been hit by reality this year. I hate to bring this up
>again
>>   > but I feel that I have to -- A lot of public word got out about our big
>>   > post-GDC fight last year (it's archived on the net...). I'm not saying
>>  that
>>   > it was any one person or any one comment -- I can't even look at the
>>  archive
>>
>>  > without beating myself up about it because I felt like I had really,
>>  really
>>   > let everyone down. I got the proposals and the passes but I couldn't
>make
>>   > our showing work in the best way possible. I couldn't be everywhere
>>   > advertising our sessions. I was far from perfect, we were all far from
>>   > perfect, we had big dreams but not enough people doing the work. I'm
>not
>>   > saying everything goes back to that but we had a big year last year,
>had
>>   > more than enough passes for everyone...and that was then. It's hard for
>>   > me...well, it's very sad for me to realize that we had it so great last
>>  year
>>   > and we didn't recognize it, we didn't have enough real help when push
>>  came
>>   > to shove (or suitcase pulling came to suitcase pulling back and forth
>>  every
>>   > day to the convention center). All the "should of" "would have" "could
>>  have"
>>   > things are coming back to haunt me. I stopped flogging myself about
>this
>>  a
>>   > while ago and thought that I had come to peace with it but I realize
>now
>>   > that I still haven't stopped flogging myself about not being
>superhuman.
>>  I
>>   > know. I know. Stop it.
>>   >
>>   >
>>   > So...we only had one proposal accepted. All the acceptances are in now.
>>   > Reid's [cc] poster (downgraded from a 20 minute talk but I think this
>>  will
>>   > get more people) submission.
>>   > [
>>  https://www.cmpevents.com/GD08/a.asp?option=C&V=11&SessID=6456
>>  ]
>>   >
>>   >
>>   > The other two were IGDA solicited (ie, they did not go through the
>>  system)
>>   > -- accessibility arcade and the SIG meet and greet. That buys us two
>more
>>   > passes -- one is mine since I'm SIG chair and one was for Eelke for the
>>  meet
>>   > and greet because he helped on the proposals.
>>   >
>>   >
>>   > I'm going to try and talk to everyone I can think of to try and get a
>few
>>   > more passes because one of those is a roundtable and was solicited by
>>  IGDA
>>   > (that was NOT in the proposal process) and it's accessibility arcade.
>To
>>   > pull that off, we need more people. I hope that this gets us a few more
>>   > passes.
>>   >
>>   >
>>   > The booth is out of question unless we can get some SERIOUS money FAST.
>I
>>  am
>>   > trying every angle I can think of but so far no luck. The booth SPACE
>>  costs
>>   > $5100 for 10x10 booth -- add on about $3000 more for the "required"
>>  minimum
>>   > of stuff we have to provide...no way. IF we get an expo booth it will
>get
>>  us
>>   > more EXPO passes, which will restrict those with these passes to just
>>  being
>>   > able to get into the expo area (no talks, etc). That's the reality.
>>   >
>>   >
>>   > I'm sorry to have to tell you this and I'm sorry for the anger/sadness
>in
>>  my
>>  > tone. We are not going to be able to bring everyone we want to. I cannot
>>  say
>>   > when or if I'll hear if we can get more passes. I know some of you have
>>   > already made flight and hotel arrangements. If you are one of these
>  > people,
>>   > please check with your airlines, etc for the last date to cancel
>without
>>   > penalty.
>>   >
>>   >
>>   > So three passes...that's it. That's where we are at. I will let you
>know
>>  if
>>   > the pass situation changes but for now it doesn't look great. We now
>have
>>   > fifteen fewer passes so those of us in attendance are going to have to
>>  try
>>   > and talk our asses off at GDC.
>>   >
>>   >
>>   > Michelle
>>   > _______________________________________________
>>   > games_access mailing list
>>   > games_access at igda.org
>>   > http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>   >
>>   >
>>   _______________________________________________
>>   games_access mailing list
>>   games_access at igda.org
>>   http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>   --
>>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>   Eelke Folmer                           Assistant Professor
>>   Department of CS&E/171
>>   University of Nevada              Reno, Nevada 89557
>>   Game interaction design        www.helpyouplay.com
>>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>   _______________________________________________
>>   games_access mailing list
>>
>>  games_access at igda.org
>>   http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>
>>
>>
>>   _______________________________________________
>>   games_access mailing list
>>   games_access at igda.org
>>   http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>
>>  _______________________________________________
>>  games_access mailing list
>>  games_access at igda.org
>>  http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>
>>  _______________________________________________
>>  games_access mailing list
>>  games_access at igda.org
>>  http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>
>>
>
>
>--
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Eelke Folmer                           Assistant Professor
>Department of CS&E/171
>University of Nevada              Reno, Nevada 89557
>Game interaction design        www.helpyouplay.com
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access



From richard at audiogames.net  Sat Dec  1 13:07:09 2007
From: richard at audiogames.net (AudioGames.net)
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 19:07:09 +0100
Subject: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News
References: <006501c8312b$82902a60$6501a8c0@Inspiron><p0623090ac37223cd87e8@130.126.29.21><a6673b8d0711271244m7b678e79ye94e3a7688c020e2@mail.gmail.com><836db6300711300020r477e9abbldc4a6261effa5686@mail.gmail.com><008701c8337d$ac6de170$6501a8c0@Inspiron><p0623090fc3760c1b8d7d@130.126.29.21><30EC442C-11A9-416C-BE37-0540384E8C0A@pininteractive.com><000301c833bf$4c509a20$6501a8c0@Inspiron><3dd2060e0711302009g3635fb8eq5a12c64cb86a5972@mail.gmail.com><a6673b8d0711302326j60766890s4e63c3634b5f6bf5@mail.gmail.com>
	<6.1.0.6.2.20071201103852.01d66f38@enigami.com>
Message-ID: <001c01c83444$fd9c0460$6402a8c0@Delletje>

Hi,

I agree with John. I think too much focus of the SIG (at least the past year 
and a half or so) has been on "spreading the word" and not so much on 
defining "game accessibility fundamentals". I guess most of you are also 
aware of this and I agree that spreading the word is important too. But I 
think it is about time we finish A (or The) Definitive v1.0 Set of Game 
Accessibility Design Guidelines/Principles/Heuristics/Patterns! Once and for 
all. Several people here are very anxious about getting logos (yes, I know - 
logos for very specific functionalities[1]) as soon as possible and stuff 
like that but WITHOUT a good definition of accessibility it doesn't mean 
anything. BTW John, I'm not saying you are stupid but... (grin)... you claim 
to develop game that "are accessible" yet you yourself do not know a 
"specific set of functional criteria that define what means accessible"... 
;) (just a joke ;) > but it is actually an example of the problem > I know 
some of us have been saying "this game is accessible" or "this feature is 
accessible" in the past but is it really...? For example, many of the games 
and features that Barrie often names as "being accessible" absolutely do not 
improve the accessibility for my personal target group (visually impaired 
gamers). But when you visit the links that Barrie posted in answer of John's 
email you'll see that they DO NOT provide coherent information of design 
guidelines/heuristics for game accessibility, nor a final 
definition/description of what game accessibility should consist of. There 
is a lot of information out there, including old and also invalid 
information [2] in my opinion but it does not cover what needs to be done to 
make games accessible. For example, Eelke's (pretty good!) design patterns 
are a formal way of describing specific design problems and their solutions, 
but not everything concerning game accessibility might be able to be 
captured in the format of patterns [3]. My point: there is alot of 
information out there that is not coherent and not all information is there. 
And therefore agree with John that if it's not the SIG's job to fix this 
issue, whose job is it?

John's email reminded me that that was what initially draw me to this SIG in 
the first place (being busy with game accessibility myself and disagreeing 
with the initial SIG Top 10 guidelines and hopeing to contribute to a better 
definition and design guidelines) and now painfully lets me conclude that 
here I am, still working on my initial draft [4] more or less by myself (see 
my GDC08 proposal and 3 years of posts to the list concerning guidelines). 
John's email also made me realise how little the SIG has published. I know 
several of us have written articles, but as far as I know - if you don't 
count the SIG activity at conferences, the last actual SIG publication was 
2005?

Sigh... ok.. point of this email: I believe we are all doing the best we 
can, with limited resources and busy lives. And we all want to do as much as 
possible. Several of us have already aimed their actual careers at that. And 
we already scheduled several committees for specific activities such as 
research and industry and stuff like that. So cheers and drinks for us :) 
And the active <10 of us can't do more than we can. But, logically, one of 
the best next steps we can now do is to make a worldwide publication with a 
definitive set of descriptions of game accessibility functionality, with 
design guidelines and where possible, design patterns. And since The Book 
will not coming for another couple of years or so I think a simple .pdf 
paper with the IGDA logo will do.
Too much of the SIG's knowledge is floating in the air (or in the heads of 
<10 individuals around the world). Why try to only ventilate that knowledge 
at conferences? If we put that knowledge in a fixed form it will help with 
BOTH awareness and more accessible games. I also the SIG benefits from 
that - it will help ourselves get our personal thoughts out and get in line 
with each other - something I think we now are not. Therefore I think that 
such a publication is now much more needed than anything else.

Greets,

Richard


[1] like " contains captions" , "one switch accessible", etc. etc. which in 
the end could mean about 39? logo's on your product - which is not very 
accessible?
[2] http://gameaccess.medialt.no/guide.php
[3] I prefer a hierarchical list of keypoints > guidelines > patterns - a 
bit like seen in my doc [4].
[4] http://www2.hku.nl/~mosh/ga/gatheoryshort012_2OLD.doc





----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John Bannick" <jbannick at 7128.com>
To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 5:05 PM
Subject: Re: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News


> Reid is right.
>
> There are developers right now who want their work to be accessible.
>
> This SIG could right now facilitate that by:
>
> 1. Providing, distributing, and publicizing a concise, specific set of 
> functional criteria that define what means accessible.
> 2. Compiling, publishing, and publicizing an annual list of which 
> companies and games meet those criteria.
> 3. Maintaining a forum (The currently rather drifting Game Accessibility 
> Project comes to mind) where developers can go for immediate help.
>
> I'm a developer of games that are accessible.
> Have shipped 22 different revenue-generating products in a wide variety of 
> vertical markets in the last 30 years.
> Am neither stupid nor lazy.
> And don't see any of the 3 above items.
>
> None of the 3 items should take long to build as a first cut.
>
> And if not from this SIG, then from where?
>
> John Bannick
> CTO
> 7-128 Software
>
>
> At 02:26 AM 12/1/2007, you wrote:
>>Please, can we stop with the negative talk about GDC and the game
>>industry? I work in the game industry for LucasArts. Just last week I
>>talked to a highly respected programmer and he's 100% behind us and
>>wants to talk about what we can do to improve accessibility in our
>>games after our current milestone is finished. There are dozens of
>>people at LucasArts that support game accessibility. Nintendo totally
>>gets it, EA Games totally gets it with their Family Play modes in
>>their sports games. Peter Molyneux gets it, Will Wright... the list
>>goes on and on.
>>
>>It's offensive to me when people of this SIG accuse developers of not
>>caring because WE DO CARE. The last thing you want to do is insult the
>>people you have to work with. It's the quickest way to turn them away
>>from our cause.
>>
>>So, instead of complaining, lets do something about it! First,
>>everyone here needs to understand what it's like for developers and
>>why it's so hard for them to adopt accessibility features.
>>
>>1. Limited financial resources - Games are very expensive to make and
>>any new features adds to the cost. Before you can add accessibility
>>features you must have a game and that's where most of the money is
>>spent first.
>>
>>2. Limited time - Game development is incredibly complex and hard to
>>tame. No matter how much extra time gets budgeted into the production
>>schedule, it always runs out well before all tasks are complete. When
>>this happens, features get cut in order to save the core of the game
>>and again, without a game, there can't be any accessibility features.
>>Because this usually happens so late, there isn't enough time to work
>>on accessibility features before the game has to ship.
>>
>>3. Limited information - Even if a developer was pro-active and
>>scheduled the development of accessibility features into the games'
>>development schedule, there's still a major lack of knowledge and
>>tools that enable them to do their job. The SIG has been thinking
>>about accessibility features for years and we have all the solutions,
>>but developers don't yet. We need to make ourselves known and readily
>>available to help them.
>>
>>What can we do to solve these issues? We need to develop our
>>relationships with developers and offer our assistance. Our attempts
>>to work with GarageGames is a good start. When a new game is announced
>>we should contact them and offer our expertise.
>>
>>We have GOT to get a website up so that we can communicate our
>>abilities and expertise to our target audiences (game developers).
>>
>>But there are technical issues and many of us are volunteers and so
>>things move very slowly.
>>
>>Several of us are writing guidelines for implementing certain features
>>but again, this is a slow process. Others are doing research. Going to
>>conferences is awesome. Writing articles to Gamasutra is great as
>>well.
>>
>>Eitan is right, we have to "sell" our expertise. It's not that
>>developers don't care, they don't know that they SHOULD care.
>>
>>-Reid
>>_______________________________________________
>>games_access mailing list
>>games_access at igda.org
>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>
>>
>>--
>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.11/1161 - Release Date: 
>>11/30/2007 12:12 PM
>
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access 



From barrie.ellis at oneswitch.org.uk  Sat Dec  1 13:10:15 2007
From: barrie.ellis at oneswitch.org.uk (Barrie Ellis)
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 18:10:15 -0000
Subject: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News
References: <006501c8312b$82902a60$6501a8c0@Inspiron><p0623090ac37223cd87e8@130.126.29.21><a6673b8d0711271244m7b678e79ye94e3a7688c020e2@mail.gmail.com><836db6300711300020r477e9abbldc4a6261effa5686@mail.gmail.com><008701c8337d$ac6de170$6501a8c0@Inspiron><p0623090fc3760c1b8d7d@130.126.29.21><30EC442C-11A9-416C-BE37-0540384E8C0A@pininteractive.com><000301c833bf$4c509a20$6501a8c0@Inspiron><3dd2060e0711302009g3635fb8eq5a12c64cb86a5972@mail.gmail.com><a6673b8d0711302326j60766890s4e63c3634b5f6bf5@mail.gmail.com>AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIwkLSwA<003e01c83442$efbce8c0$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
	<p06230921c377514dc4fc@[130.126.29.21]>
Message-ID: <056801c83445$6c6fc070$0202a8c0@oneswitch>

Count me in! And anyone that wishes to help with adding content to the GASIG 
Blog - please get in touch!

http://gameaccessibility.blogspot.com/

Barrie
www.OneSwitch.org.uk


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "d. michelle hinn" <hinn at uiuc.edu>
To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 5:59 PM
Subject: Re: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News


> Who will be a part of "We"?
>
> Michelle
>
>>Hi John.  With what you said below I think you hit the nail on the head.
>>
>>Then we definitely need a web site and a forum.
>>Robert
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
>>On Behalf Of John Bannick
>>Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 11:05 AM
>>To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
>>Subject: Re: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News
>>
>>Reid is right.
>>
>>There are developers right now who want their work to be accessible.
>>
>>This SIG could right now facilitate that by:
>>
>>1. Providing, distributing, and publicizing a concise, specific set of
>>functional criteria that define what means accessible.
>>2. Compiling, publishing, and publicizing an annual list of which 
>>companies
>>and games meet those criteria.
>>3. Maintaining a forum (The currently rather drifting Game Accessibility
>>Project comes to mind) where developers can go for immediate help.
>>
>>I'm a developer of games that are accessible.
>>Have shipped 22 different revenue-generating products in a wide variety of
>>vertical markets in the last 30 years.
>>Am neither stupid nor lazy.
>>And don't see any of the 3 above items.
>>
>>None of the 3 items should take long to build as a first cut.
>>
>>And if not from this SIG, then from where?
>>
>>John Bannick
>>CTO
>>7-128 Software
>>
>>
>>At 02:26 AM 12/1/2007, you wrote:
>>>Please, can we stop with the negative talk about GDC and the game
>>>industry? I work in the game industry for LucasArts. Just last week I
>>>talked to a highly respected programmer and he's 100% behind us and
>>>wants to talk about what we can do to improve accessibility in our
>>>games after our current milestone is finished. There are dozens of
>>>people at LucasArts that support game accessibility. Nintendo totally
>>>gets it, EA Games totally gets it with their Family Play modes in
>>>their sports games. Peter Molyneux gets it, Will Wright... the list
>>>goes on and on.
>>>
>>>It's offensive to me when people of this SIG accuse developers of not
>>>caring because WE DO CARE. The last thing you want to do is insult the
>>>people you have to work with. It's the quickest way to turn them away
>>>from our cause.
>>>
>>>So, instead of complaining, lets do something about it! First,
>>>everyone here needs to understand what it's like for developers and
>>>why it's so hard for them to adopt accessibility features.
>>>
>>>1. Limited financial resources - Games are very expensive to make and
>>>any new features adds to the cost. Before you can add accessibility
>>>features you must have a game and that's where most of the money is
>>>spent first.
>>>
>>>2. Limited time - Game development is incredibly complex and hard to
>>>tame. No matter how much extra time gets budgeted into the production
>>>schedule, it always runs out well before all tasks are complete. When
>>>this happens, features get cut in order to save the core of the game
>>>and again, without a game, there can't be any accessibility features.
>>>Because this usually happens so late, there isn't enough time to work
>>>on accessibility features before the game has to ship.
>>>
>>>3. Limited information - Even if a developer was pro-active and
>>>scheduled the development of accessibility features into the games'
>>>development schedule, there's still a major lack of knowledge and
>>>tools that enable them to do their job. The SIG has been thinking
>>>about accessibility features for years and we have all the solutions,
>>>but developers don't yet. We need to make ourselves known and readily
>>>available to help them.
>>>
>>>What can we do to solve these issues? We need to develop our
>>>relationships with developers and offer our assistance. Our attempts
>>>to work with GarageGames is a good start. When a new game is announced
>>>we should contact them and offer our expertise.
>>>
>>>We have GOT to get a website up so that we can communicate our
>>>abilities and expertise to our target audiences (game developers).
>>>
>>>But there are technical issues and many of us are volunteers and so
>>  >things move very slowly.
>>>
>>>Several of us are writing guidelines for implementing certain features
>>>but again, this is a slow process. Others are doing research. Going to
>>>conferences is awesome. Writing articles to Gamasutra is great as
>>>well.
>>>
>>>Eitan is right, we have to "sell" our expertise. It's not that
>>>developers don't care, they don't know that they SHOULD care.
>>>
>>>-Reid
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>games_access mailing list
>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>
>>>
>>>--
>>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>>Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.11/1161 - Release Date:
>>>11/30/2007 12:12 PM
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>games_access mailing list
>>games_access at igda.org
>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>games_access mailing list
>>games_access at igda.org
>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access 





From richard at audiogames.net  Sat Dec  1 13:17:03 2007
From: richard at audiogames.net (AudioGames.net)
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 19:17:03 +0100
Subject: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News
References: <006501c8312b$82902a60$6501a8c0@Inspiron><p0623090ac37223cd87e8@130.126.29.21><a6673b8d0711271244m7b678e79ye94e3a7688c020e2@mail.gmail.com><836db6300711300020r477e9abbldc4a6261effa5686@mail.gmail.com><008701c8337d$ac6de170$6501a8c0@Inspiron><p0623090fc3760c1b8d7d@130.126.29.21><30EC442C-11A9-416C-BE37-0540384E8C0A@pininteractive.com><000301c833bf$4c509a20$6501a8c0@Inspiron><3dd2060e0711302009g3635fb8eq5a12c64cb86a5972@mail.gmail.com><a6673b8d0711302326j60766890s4e63c3634b5f6bf5@mail.gmail.com><6.1.0.6.2.20071201103852.01d66f38@enigami.com><p0623091cc3774402a76e@[130.126.29.21]>
	<6.1.0.6.2.20071201123300.01d9e6a0@enigami.com>
Message-ID: <005001c83446$5fccee00$6402a8c0@Delletje>

Hi,

Well, me? > 1) See my doc, which I think is the best attempt to capture game 
accessibility so far. I anyone disagrees PLEASE :) tell me... :)

Greets,

Richard


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John Bannick" <jbannick at 7128.com>
To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 6:51 PM
Subject: Re: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News


> Michelle,
>
> Well put.
>
> So OK. I volunteer to assemble, contribute to, and be responsible for 
> delivery of Item 1.
>
> This means:
>
> 1. Getting from you good folks any work in progress you want to share, 
> synthesizing it into something that works, getting a quick review by 
> anyone here who is interested, and delivering a first cut of SIG Game 
> Accessibility Criteria.
>
> 2. Getting from anyone here who wants to contribute, and contributing to, 
> a list of target developers, organizations, institutions, and distributors 
> we send this to, getting a quick review, and delivering a first cut 
> Distribution List.
>
> 3. Writing a first draft cover letter /  promo piece, that is sent with 
> the Criteria, getting a quick review, and delivering this first cut Cover 
> Letter.
>
> All of the above sent to you, Michelle NLT 15 January, 2008.
> That way you get the volunteer work, you maintain control, and everyone is 
> included.
>
> BTW. This isn't nearly as formidable as developing coding standards for 
> the 50 engineers who did the software that laid out the NY Times, and 
> surviving the process.
>
> Does this work for you, Michelle?
>
> John Bannick
>
> At 12:24 PM 12/1/2007, you wrote:
>>All of the things John mentions are projects we have talked about and/or 
>>taken passes at (the top ten list from two years ago and now the new 
>>project that Barrie has started up, etc). Others have brought up other 
>>ideas that we've either done or attempted and then the projects lost 
>>momentum. All these things are great but there's a problem...these things 
>>also take active volunteers in the SIG and from that perspective our 
>>numbers are low. So we need people who are willing to put in the time and 
>>may/may not get any reimbursement for that time and every project cannot 
>>be started and maintained by me.
>>
>>So instead of continuing to criticize ourselves (I know...I started it but 
>>I was really mad after killing myself over the proposals at deadline), the 
>>industry, the GDC etc...who from WITHIN this SIG can put in the time 
>>needed for these things AND actually follow through? No, it's not fair 
>>that we aren't in a position to reimburse people for time and that won't 
>>change in the near future. But it's something that will have to change and 
>>it will change but we can't just wait for that day to come (because it 
>>won't come if we don't put in the sweat equity now). People need to 
>>honestly commit the time and work because they believe in making change. 
>>Take some of that anger and tell me what YOU are willing to do to help us 
>>make change. Take ownership of something on behalf of the SIG. Ideas are 
>>great...but we need people who will put in the work so that the "SIG" is 
>>able to do these things.
>>
>>So who will join in putting in some volunteer time so that these ideas can 
>>become reality?
>>
>>Michelle
>>
>>>Reid is right.
>>>
>>>There are developers right now who want their work to be accessible.
>>>
>>>This SIG could right now facilitate that by:
>>>
>>>1. Providing, distributing, and publicizing a concise, specific set of 
>>>functional criteria that define what means accessible.
>>>2. Compiling, publishing, and publicizing an annual list of which 
>>>companies and games meet those criteria.
>>>3. Maintaining a forum (The currently rather drifting Game Accessibility 
>>>Project comes to mind) where developers can go for immediate help.
>>>
>>>I'm a developer of games that are accessible.
>>>Have shipped 22 different revenue-generating products in a wide variety 
>>>of vertical markets in the last 30 years.
>>>Am neither stupid nor lazy.
>>>And don't see any of the 3 above items.
>>>
>>>None of the 3 items should take long to build as a first cut.
>>>
>>>And if not from this SIG, then from where?
>>>
>>>John Bannick
>>>CTO
>>>7-128 Software
>>>
>>>
>>>At 02:26 AM 12/1/2007, you wrote:
>>>>Please, can we stop with the negative talk about GDC and the game
>>>>industry? I work in the game industry for LucasArts. Just last week I
>>>>talked to a highly respected programmer and he's 100% behind us and
>>>>wants to talk about what we can do to improve accessibility in our
>>>>games after our current milestone is finished. There are dozens of
>>>>people at LucasArts that support game accessibility. Nintendo totally
>>>>gets it, EA Games totally gets it with their Family Play modes in
>>>>their sports games. Peter Molyneux gets it, Will Wright... the list
>>>>goes on and on.
>>>>
>>>>It's offensive to me when people of this SIG accuse developers of not
>>>>caring because WE DO CARE. The last thing you want to do is insult the
>>>>people you have to work with. It's the quickest way to turn them away
>>>>from our cause.
>>>>
>>>>So, instead of complaining, lets do something about it! First,
>>>>everyone here needs to understand what it's like for developers and
>>>>why it's so hard for them to adopt accessibility features.
>>>>
>>>>1. Limited financial resources - Games are very expensive to make and
>>>>any new features adds to the cost. Before you can add accessibility
>>>>features you must have a game and that's where most of the money is
>>>>spent first.
>>>>
>>>>2. Limited time - Game development is incredibly complex and hard to
>>>>tame. No matter how much extra time gets budgeted into the production
>>>>schedule, it always runs out well before all tasks are complete. When
>>>>this happens, features get cut in order to save the core of the game
>>>>and again, without a game, there can't be any accessibility features.
>>>>Because this usually happens so late, there isn't enough time to work
>>>>on accessibility features before the game has to ship.
>>>>
>>>>3. Limited information - Even if a developer was pro-active and
>>>>scheduled the development of accessibility features into the games'
>>>>development schedule, there's still a major lack of knowledge and
>>>>tools that enable them to do their job. The SIG has been thinking
>>>>about accessibility features for years and we have all the solutions,
>>>>but developers don't yet. We need to make ourselves known and readily
>>>>available to help them.
>>>>
>>>>What can we do to solve these issues? We need to develop our
>>>>relationships with developers and offer our assistance. Our attempts
>>>>to work with GarageGames is a good start. When a new game is announced
>>>>we should contact them and offer our expertise.
>>>>
>>>>We have GOT to get a website up so that we can communicate our
>>>>abilities and expertise to our target audiences (game developers).
>>>>
>>>>But there are technical issues and many of us are volunteers and so
>>>>things move very slowly.
>>>>
>>>>Several of us are writing guidelines for implementing certain features
>>>>but again, this is a slow process. Others are doing research. Going to
>>>>conferences is awesome. Writing articles to Gamasutra is great as
>>>>well.
>>>>
>>>>Eitan is right, we have to "sell" our expertise. It's not that
>>>>developers don't care, they don't know that they SHOULD care.
>>>>
>>>>-Reid
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>games_access mailing list
>>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>--
>>>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>>>Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.11/1161 - Release Date: 
>>>>11/30/2007 12:12 PM
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>games_access mailing list
>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>games_access mailing list
>>games_access at igda.org
>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>
>>
>>--
>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 
>>269.16.12/1163 - Release Date: 12/1/2007 12:05 PM
>
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access 



From richard at audiogames.net  Sat Dec  1 13:19:21 2007
From: richard at audiogames.net (AudioGames.net)
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 19:19:21 +0100
Subject: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News
References: <006501c8312b$82902a60$6501a8c0@Inspiron><p0623090ac37223cd87e8@130.126.29.21><a6673b8d0711271244m7b678e79ye94e3a7688c020e2@mail.gmail.com><836db6300711300020r477e9abbldc4a6261effa5686@mail.gmail.com><008701c8337d$ac6de170$6501a8c0@Inspiron><p0623090fc3760c1b8d7d@130.126.29.21><30EC442C-11A9-416C-BE37-0540384E8C0A@pininteractive.com><000301c833bf$4c509a20$6501a8c0@Inspiron><3dd2060e0711302009g3635fb8eq5a12c64cb86a5972@mail.gmail.com><a6673b8d0711302326j60766890s4e63c3634b5f6bf5@mail.gmail.com><6.1.0.6.2.20071201103852.01d66f38@enigami.com><p0623091cc3774402a76e@[130.126.29.21]><6.1.0.6.2.20071201123300.01d9e6a0@enigami.com>
	<005001c83446$5fccee00$6402a8c0@Delletje>
Message-ID: <006d01c83446$b212f100$6402a8c0@Delletje>

(I was referring to my email sent earlier to this list, which didn't seem to 
have come through?!?)... here it is again:

Hi,

I agree with John. I think too much focus of the SIG (at least the past year
and a half or so) has been on "spreading the word" and not so much on
defining "game accessibility fundamentals". I guess most of you are also
aware of this and I agree that spreading the word is important too. But I
think it is about time we finish A (or The) Definitive v1.0 Set of Game
Accessibility Design Guidelines/Principles/Heuristics/Patterns! Once and for
all. Several people here are very anxious about getting logos (yes, I know -
logos for very specific functionalities[1]) as soon as possible and stuff
like that but WITHOUT a good definition of accessibility it doesn't mean
anything. BTW John, I'm not saying you are stupid but... (grin)... you claim
to develop game that "are accessible" yet you yourself do not know a
"specific set of functional criteria that define what means accessible"...
;) (just a joke ;) > but it is actually an example of the problem > I know
some of us have been saying "this game is accessible" or "this feature is
accessible" in the past but is it really...? For example, many of the games
and features that Barrie often names as "being accessible" absolutely do not
improve the accessibility for my personal target group (visually impaired
gamers). But when you visit the links that Barrie posted in answer of John's
email you'll see that they DO NOT provide coherent information of design
guidelines/heuristics for game accessibility, nor a final
definition/description of what game accessibility should consist of. There
is a lot of information out there, including old and also invalid
information [2] in my opinion but it does not cover what needs to be done to
make games accessible. For example, Eelke's (pretty good!) design patterns
are a formal way of describing specific design problems and their solutions,
but not everything concerning game accessibility might be able to be
captured in the format of patterns [3]. My point: there is alot of
information out there that is not coherent and not all information is there.
And therefore agree with John that if it's not the SIG's job to fix this
issue, whose job is it?

John's email reminded me that that was what initially draw me to this SIG in
the first place (being busy with game accessibility myself and disagreeing
with the initial SIG Top 10 guidelines and hopeing to contribute to a better
definition and design guidelines) and now painfully lets me conclude that
here I am, still working on my initial draft [4] more or less by myself (see
my GDC08 proposal and 3 years of posts to the list concerning guidelines).
John's email also made me realise how little the SIG has published. I know
several of us have written articles, but as far as I know - if you don't
count the SIG activity at conferences, the last actual SIG publication was
2005?

Sigh... ok.. point of this email: I believe we are all doing the best we
can, with limited resources and busy lives. And we all want to do as much as
possible. Several of us have already aimed their actual careers at that. And
we already scheduled several committees for specific activities such as
research and industry and stuff like that. So cheers and drinks for us :)
And the active <10 of us can't do more than we can. But, logically, one of
the best next steps we can now do is to make a worldwide publication with a
definitive set of descriptions of game accessibility functionality, with
design guidelines and where possible, design patterns. And since The Book
will not coming for another couple of years or so I think a simple .pdf
paper with the IGDA logo will do.
Too much of the SIG's knowledge is floating in the air (or in the heads of
<10 individuals around the world). Why try to only ventilate that knowledge
at conferences? If we put that knowledge in a fixed form it will help with
BOTH awareness and more accessible games. I also the SIG benefits from
that - it will help ourselves get our personal thoughts out and get in line
with each other - something I think we now are not. Therefore I think that
such a publication is now much more needed than anything else.

Greets,

Richard


[1] like " contains captions" , "one switch accessible", etc. etc. which in
the end could mean about 39? logo's on your product - which is not very
accessible?
[2] http://gameaccess.medialt.no/guide.php
[3] I prefer a hierarchical list of keypoints > guidelines > patterns - a
bit like seen in my doc [4].
[4] http://www2.hku.nl/~mosh/ga/gatheoryshort012_2OLD.doc








----- Original Message ----- 
From: "AudioGames.net" <richard at audiogames.net>
To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 7:17 PM
Subject: Re: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News


> Hi,
>
> Well, me? > 1) See my doc, which I think is the best attempt to capture 
> game accessibility so far. I anyone disagrees PLEASE :) tell me... :)
>
> Greets,
>
> Richard
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "John Bannick" <jbannick at 7128.com>
> To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
> Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 6:51 PM
> Subject: Re: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News
>
>
>> Michelle,
>>
>> Well put.
>>
>> So OK. I volunteer to assemble, contribute to, and be responsible for 
>> delivery of Item 1.
>>
>> This means:
>>
>> 1. Getting from you good folks any work in progress you want to share, 
>> synthesizing it into something that works, getting a quick review by 
>> anyone here who is interested, and delivering a first cut of SIG Game 
>> Accessibility Criteria.
>>
>> 2. Getting from anyone here who wants to contribute, and contributing to, 
>> a list of target developers, organizations, institutions, and 
>> distributors we send this to, getting a quick review, and delivering a 
>> first cut Distribution List.
>>
>> 3. Writing a first draft cover letter /  promo piece, that is sent with 
>> the Criteria, getting a quick review, and delivering this first cut Cover 
>> Letter.
>>
>> All of the above sent to you, Michelle NLT 15 January, 2008.
>> That way you get the volunteer work, you maintain control, and everyone 
>> is included.
>>
>> BTW. This isn't nearly as formidable as developing coding standards for 
>> the 50 engineers who did the software that laid out the NY Times, and 
>> surviving the process.
>>
>> Does this work for you, Michelle?
>>
>> John Bannick
>>
>> At 12:24 PM 12/1/2007, you wrote:
>>>All of the things John mentions are projects we have talked about and/or 
>>>taken passes at (the top ten list from two years ago and now the new 
>>>project that Barrie has started up, etc). Others have brought up other 
>>>ideas that we've either done or attempted and then the projects lost 
>>>momentum. All these things are great but there's a problem...these things 
>>>also take active volunteers in the SIG and from that perspective our 
>>>numbers are low. So we need people who are willing to put in the time and 
>>>may/may not get any reimbursement for that time and every project cannot 
>>>be started and maintained by me.
>>>
>>>So instead of continuing to criticize ourselves (I know...I started it 
>>>but I was really mad after killing myself over the proposals at 
>>>deadline), the industry, the GDC etc...who from WITHIN this SIG can put 
>>>in the time needed for these things AND actually follow through? No, it's 
>>>not fair that we aren't in a position to reimburse people for time and 
>>>that won't change in the near future. But it's something that will have 
>>>to change and it will change but we can't just wait for that day to come 
>>>(because it won't come if we don't put in the sweat equity now). People 
>>>need to honestly commit the time and work because they believe in making 
>>>change. Take some of that anger and tell me what YOU are willing to do to 
>>>help us make change. Take ownership of something on behalf of the SIG. 
>>>Ideas are great...but we need people who will put in the work so that the 
>>>"SIG" is able to do these things.
>>>
>>>So who will join in putting in some volunteer time so that these ideas 
>>>can become reality?
>>>
>>>Michelle
>>>
>>>>Reid is right.
>>>>
>>>>There are developers right now who want their work to be accessible.
>>>>
>>>>This SIG could right now facilitate that by:
>>>>
>>>>1. Providing, distributing, and publicizing a concise, specific set of 
>>>>functional criteria that define what means accessible.
>>>>2. Compiling, publishing, and publicizing an annual list of which 
>>>>companies and games meet those criteria.
>>>>3. Maintaining a forum (The currently rather drifting Game Accessibility 
>>>>Project comes to mind) where developers can go for immediate help.
>>>>
>>>>I'm a developer of games that are accessible.
>>>>Have shipped 22 different revenue-generating products in a wide variety 
>>>>of vertical markets in the last 30 years.
>>>>Am neither stupid nor lazy.
>>>>And don't see any of the 3 above items.
>>>>
>>>>None of the 3 items should take long to build as a first cut.
>>>>
>>>>And if not from this SIG, then from where?
>>>>
>>>>John Bannick
>>>>CTO
>>>>7-128 Software
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>At 02:26 AM 12/1/2007, you wrote:
>>>>>Please, can we stop with the negative talk about GDC and the game
>>>>>industry? I work in the game industry for LucasArts. Just last week I
>>>>>talked to a highly respected programmer and he's 100% behind us and
>>>>>wants to talk about what we can do to improve accessibility in our
>>>>>games after our current milestone is finished. There are dozens of
>>>>>people at LucasArts that support game accessibility. Nintendo totally
>>>>>gets it, EA Games totally gets it with their Family Play modes in
>>>>>their sports games. Peter Molyneux gets it, Will Wright... the list
>>>>>goes on and on.
>>>>>
>>>>>It's offensive to me when people of this SIG accuse developers of not
>>>>>caring because WE DO CARE. The last thing you want to do is insult the
>>>>>people you have to work with. It's the quickest way to turn them away
>>>>>from our cause.
>>>>>
>>>>>So, instead of complaining, lets do something about it! First,
>>>>>everyone here needs to understand what it's like for developers and
>>>>>why it's so hard for them to adopt accessibility features.
>>>>>
>>>>>1. Limited financial resources - Games are very expensive to make and
>>>>>any new features adds to the cost. Before you can add accessibility
>>>>>features you must have a game and that's where most of the money is
>>>>>spent first.
>>>>>
>>>>>2. Limited time - Game development is incredibly complex and hard to
>>>>>tame. No matter how much extra time gets budgeted into the production
>>>>>schedule, it always runs out well before all tasks are complete. When
>>>>>this happens, features get cut in order to save the core of the game
>>>>>and again, without a game, there can't be any accessibility features.
>>>>>Because this usually happens so late, there isn't enough time to work
>>>>>on accessibility features before the game has to ship.
>>>>>
>>>>>3. Limited information - Even if a developer was pro-active and
>>>>>scheduled the development of accessibility features into the games'
>>>>>development schedule, there's still a major lack of knowledge and
>>>>>tools that enable them to do their job. The SIG has been thinking
>>>>>about accessibility features for years and we have all the solutions,
>>>>>but developers don't yet. We need to make ourselves known and readily
>>>>>available to help them.
>>>>>
>>>>>What can we do to solve these issues? We need to develop our
>>>>>relationships with developers and offer our assistance. Our attempts
>>>>>to work with GarageGames is a good start. When a new game is announced
>>>>>we should contact them and offer our expertise.
>>>>>
>>>>>We have GOT to get a website up so that we can communicate our
>>>>>abilities and expertise to our target audiences (game developers).
>>>>>
>>>>>But there are technical issues and many of us are volunteers and so
>>>>>things move very slowly.
>>>>>
>>>>>Several of us are writing guidelines for implementing certain features
>>>>>but again, this is a slow process. Others are doing research. Going to
>>>>>conferences is awesome. Writing articles to Gamasutra is great as
>>>>>well.
>>>>>
>>>>>Eitan is right, we have to "sell" our expertise. It's not that
>>>>>developers don't care, they don't know that they SHOULD care.
>>>>>
>>>>>-Reid
>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>games_access mailing list
>>>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>--
>>>>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>>>>Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.11/1161 - Release Date: 
>>>>>11/30/2007 12:12 PM
>>>>
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>games_access mailing list
>>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>games_access mailing list
>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>
>>>
>>>--
>>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 
>>>269.16.12/1163 - Release Date: 12/1/2007 12:05 PM
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> games_access mailing list
>> games_access at igda.org
>> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access 



From hinn at uiuc.edu  Sat Dec  1 13:21:42 2007
From: hinn at uiuc.edu (d. michelle hinn)
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 12:21:42 -0600
Subject: [games_access] List "extra posting" weirdness
In-Reply-To: <6.1.0.6.2.20071201123300.01d9e6a0@enigami.com>
References: <006501c8312b$82902a60$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
	<p0623090ac37223cd87e8@130.126.29.21>
	<a6673b8d0711271244m7b678e79ye94e3a7688c020e2@mail.gmail.com>
	<836db6300711300020r477e9abbldc4a6261effa5686@mail.gmail.com>
	<008701c8337d$ac6de170$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
	<p0623090fc3760c1b8d7d@130.126.29.21>
	<30EC442C-11A9-416C-BE37-0540384E8C0A@pininteractive.com>
	<000301c833bf$4c509a20$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
	<3dd2060e0711302009g3635fb8eq5a12c64cb86a5972@mail.gmail.com>
	<a6673b8d0711302326j60766890s4e63c3634b5f6bf5@mail.gmail.com>
	<6.1.0.6.2.20071201103852.01d66f38@enigami.com>
	<p0623091cc3774402a76e@[130.126.29.21]>
	<6.1.0.6.2.20071201123300.01d9e6a0@enigami.com>
Message-ID: <p06230923c3775635eb52@[130.126.29.21]>

Hey everyone --

Maybe it's just my server but I keep getting repeats of messages, 
including my own. I'm trying to figure out if something is glitched 
up with the server. In the meantime, if you get messages more than 
once...I guess just think of it as "wow, that person REALLY means 
what they say!" ;)

Michelle


From richard at audiogames.net  Sat Dec  1 13:22:50 2007
From: richard at audiogames.net (AudioGames.net)
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 19:22:50 +0100
Subject: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News
References: <006501c8312b$82902a60$6501a8c0@Inspiron><p0623090ac37223cd87e8@130.126.29.21><a6673b8d0711271244m7b678e79ye94e3a7688c020e2@mail.gmail.com><836db6300711300020r477e9abbldc4a6261effa5686@mail.gmail.com><008701c8337d$ac6de170$6501a8c0@Inspiron><p0623090fc3760c1b8d7d@130.126.29.21><30EC442C-11A9-416C-BE37-0540384E8C0A@pininteractive.com><000301c833bf$4c509a20$6501a8c0@Inspiron><3dd2060e0711302009g3635fb8eq5a12c64cb86a5972@mail.gmail.com><a6673b8d0711302326j60766890s4e63c3634b5f6bf5@mail.gmail.com><6.1.0.6.2.20071201103852.01d66f38@enigami.com><p0623091cc3774402a76e@[130.126.29.21]><6.1.0.6.2.20071201123300.01d9e6a0@enigami.com>
	<005001c83446$5fccee00$6402a8c0@Delletje>
Message-ID: <007601c83447$2ec4c930$6402a8c0@Delletje>

By the way: found a later version of that document:

http://www2.hku.nl/~mosh/ga/gatheoryshort029.doc


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "AudioGames.net" <richard at audiogames.net>
To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 7:17 PM
Subject: Re: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News


> Hi,
>
> Well, me? > 1) See my doc, which I think is the best attempt to capture 
> game accessibility so far. I anyone disagrees PLEASE :) tell me... :)
>
> Greets,
>
> Richard
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "John Bannick" <jbannick at 7128.com>
> To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
> Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 6:51 PM
> Subject: Re: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News
>
>
>> Michelle,
>>
>> Well put.
>>
>> So OK. I volunteer to assemble, contribute to, and be responsible for 
>> delivery of Item 1.
>>
>> This means:
>>
>> 1. Getting from you good folks any work in progress you want to share, 
>> synthesizing it into something that works, getting a quick review by 
>> anyone here who is interested, and delivering a first cut of SIG Game 
>> Accessibility Criteria.
>>
>> 2. Getting from anyone here who wants to contribute, and contributing to, 
>> a list of target developers, organizations, institutions, and 
>> distributors we send this to, getting a quick review, and delivering a 
>> first cut Distribution List.
>>
>> 3. Writing a first draft cover letter /  promo piece, that is sent with 
>> the Criteria, getting a quick review, and delivering this first cut Cover 
>> Letter.
>>
>> All of the above sent to you, Michelle NLT 15 January, 2008.
>> That way you get the volunteer work, you maintain control, and everyone 
>> is included.
>>
>> BTW. This isn't nearly as formidable as developing coding standards for 
>> the 50 engineers who did the software that laid out the NY Times, and 
>> surviving the process.
>>
>> Does this work for you, Michelle?
>>
>> John Bannick
>>
>> At 12:24 PM 12/1/2007, you wrote:
>>>All of the things John mentions are projects we have talked about and/or 
>>>taken passes at (the top ten list from two years ago and now the new 
>>>project that Barrie has started up, etc). Others have brought up other 
>>>ideas that we've either done or attempted and then the projects lost 
>>>momentum. All these things are great but there's a problem...these things 
>>>also take active volunteers in the SIG and from that perspective our 
>>>numbers are low. So we need people who are willing to put in the time and 
>>>may/may not get any reimbursement for that time and every project cannot 
>>>be started and maintained by me.
>>>
>>>So instead of continuing to criticize ourselves (I know...I started it 
>>>but I was really mad after killing myself over the proposals at 
>>>deadline), the industry, the GDC etc...who from WITHIN this SIG can put 
>>>in the time needed for these things AND actually follow through? No, it's 
>>>not fair that we aren't in a position to reimburse people for time and 
>>>that won't change in the near future. But it's something that will have 
>>>to change and it will change but we can't just wait for that day to come 
>>>(because it won't come if we don't put in the sweat equity now). People 
>>>need to honestly commit the time and work because they believe in making 
>>>change. Take some of that anger and tell me what YOU are willing to do to 
>>>help us make change. Take ownership of something on behalf of the SIG. 
>>>Ideas are great...but we need people who will put in the work so that the 
>>>"SIG" is able to do these things.
>>>
>>>So who will join in putting in some volunteer time so that these ideas 
>>>can become reality?
>>>
>>>Michelle
>>>
>>>>Reid is right.
>>>>
>>>>There are developers right now who want their work to be accessible.
>>>>
>>>>This SIG could right now facilitate that by:
>>>>
>>>>1. Providing, distributing, and publicizing a concise, specific set of 
>>>>functional criteria that define what means accessible.
>>>>2. Compiling, publishing, and publicizing an annual list of which 
>>>>companies and games meet those criteria.
>>>>3. Maintaining a forum (The currently rather drifting Game Accessibility 
>>>>Project comes to mind) where developers can go for immediate help.
>>>>
>>>>I'm a developer of games that are accessible.
>>>>Have shipped 22 different revenue-generating products in a wide variety 
>>>>of vertical markets in the last 30 years.
>>>>Am neither stupid nor lazy.
>>>>And don't see any of the 3 above items.
>>>>
>>>>None of the 3 items should take long to build as a first cut.
>>>>
>>>>And if not from this SIG, then from where?
>>>>
>>>>John Bannick
>>>>CTO
>>>>7-128 Software
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>At 02:26 AM 12/1/2007, you wrote:
>>>>>Please, can we stop with the negative talk about GDC and the game
>>>>>industry? I work in the game industry for LucasArts. Just last week I
>>>>>talked to a highly respected programmer and he's 100% behind us and
>>>>>wants to talk about what we can do to improve accessibility in our
>>>>>games after our current milestone is finished. There are dozens of
>>>>>people at LucasArts that support game accessibility. Nintendo totally
>>>>>gets it, EA Games totally gets it with their Family Play modes in
>>>>>their sports games. Peter Molyneux gets it, Will Wright... the list
>>>>>goes on and on.
>>>>>
>>>>>It's offensive to me when people of this SIG accuse developers of not
>>>>>caring because WE DO CARE. The last thing you want to do is insult the
>>>>>people you have to work with. It's the quickest way to turn them away
>>>>>from our cause.
>>>>>
>>>>>So, instead of complaining, lets do something about it! First,
>>>>>everyone here needs to understand what it's like for developers and
>>>>>why it's so hard for them to adopt accessibility features.
>>>>>
>>>>>1. Limited financial resources - Games are very expensive to make and
>>>>>any new features adds to the cost. Before you can add accessibility
>>>>>features you must have a game and that's where most of the money is
>>>>>spent first.
>>>>>
>>>>>2. Limited time - Game development is incredibly complex and hard to
>>>>>tame. No matter how much extra time gets budgeted into the production
>>>>>schedule, it always runs out well before all tasks are complete. When
>>>>>this happens, features get cut in order to save the core of the game
>>>>>and again, without a game, there can't be any accessibility features.
>>>>>Because this usually happens so late, there isn't enough time to work
>>>>>on accessibility features before the game has to ship.
>>>>>
>>>>>3. Limited information - Even if a developer was pro-active and
>>>>>scheduled the development of accessibility features into the games'
>>>>>development schedule, there's still a major lack of knowledge and
>>>>>tools that enable them to do their job. The SIG has been thinking
>>>>>about accessibility features for years and we have all the solutions,
>>>>>but developers don't yet. We need to make ourselves known and readily
>>>>>available to help them.
>>>>>
>>>>>What can we do to solve these issues? We need to develop our
>>>>>relationships with developers and offer our assistance. Our attempts
>>>>>to work with GarageGames is a good start. When a new game is announced
>>>>>we should contact them and offer our expertise.
>>>>>
>>>>>We have GOT to get a website up so that we can communicate our
>>>>>abilities and expertise to our target audiences (game developers).
>>>>>
>>>>>But there are technical issues and many of us are volunteers and so
>>>>>things move very slowly.
>>>>>
>>>>>Several of us are writing guidelines for implementing certain features
>>>>>but again, this is a slow process. Others are doing research. Going to
>>>>>conferences is awesome. Writing articles to Gamasutra is great as
>>>>>well.
>>>>>
>>>>>Eitan is right, we have to "sell" our expertise. It's not that
>>>>>developers don't care, they don't know that they SHOULD care.
>>>>>
>>>>>-Reid
>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>games_access mailing list
>>>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>--
>>>>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>>>>Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.11/1161 - Release Date: 
>>>>>11/30/2007 12:12 PM
>>>>
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>games_access mailing list
>>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>games_access mailing list
>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>
>>>
>>>--
>>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 
>>>269.16.12/1163 - Release Date: 12/1/2007 12:05 PM
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> games_access mailing list
>> games_access at igda.org
>> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access 



From jbannick at 7128.com  Sat Dec  1 13:20:50 2007
From: jbannick at 7128.com (John Bannick)
Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2007 13:20:50 -0500
Subject: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News
In-Reply-To: <053001c83439$da0092b0$0202a8c0@oneswitch>
References: <006501c8312b$82902a60$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
	<p0623090ac37223cd87e8@130.126.29.21>
	<a6673b8d0711271244m7b678e79ye94e3a7688c020e2@mail.gmail.com>
	<836db6300711300020r477e9abbldc4a6261effa5686@mail.gmail.com>
	<008701c8337d$ac6de170$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
	<p0623090fc3760c1b8d7d@130.126.29.21>
	<30EC442C-11A9-416C-BE37-0540384E8C0A@pininteractive.com>
	<000301c833bf$4c509a20$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
	<3dd2060e0711302009g3635fb8eq5a12c64cb86a5972@mail.gmail.com>
	<a6673b8d0711302326j60766890s4e63c3634b5f6bf5@mail.gmail.com>
	<6.1.0.6.2.20071201103852.01d66f38@enigami.com>
	<053001c83439$da0092b0$0202a8c0@oneswitch>
Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.2.20071201125153.01db69b0@enigami.com>

Barrie,

No. Not harsh. Just on point. (Programmers are not hired for their social 
skills.)

1. Yes.

But this SIG is unique in that it is the one active place that covers 
multiple challenges, has an international audience, and clearly has the 
ears of some key industry players. If this SIG has its own concise, 
specific, answer to "what do you want us developers to do?" please point me 
to it.

2. Again, this SIG has a unique position in that it can credibly publish 
such a list, that address multiple challenges, internationally, and has the 
ear of the major developers. Is there any such recognized list of companies 
and games? Why not from this SIG?

3. Please.

I'm on the Game Accessibility Project forum every day. It's getting spammed 
without intervention. It's much lower volume than such a fine effort 
warrants.  Richard says he's out of there. It's adrift.

And Mark's forum is outstanding, but does not right now have the attention 
of the industry leaders, or actual developers, that this SIG does. (No 
criticism, he's doing a wonderful job.) I'm on Audyssey every day and it 
has a very active set of game developers that help each other all the time. 
But it's limited to the blind and VI folks.

I'd not heard of the RetroRemakes forum (thanks for the tip) but according 
to its main page, it's most recent post was in August.

Show me a forum where mainstream game developers meet to help each other 
make accessibility happen.

The three proposals stand.

John

At 11:47 AM 12/1/2007, you wrote:
>A little harsh, John perhaps?
>
>1. Has been covered to various degrees here:
>
>http://www.oneswitch.org.uk/2/ARTICLES/physical-barriers.htm
>http://www.ics.forth.gr/hci/ua-games/game-over/
>http://www.helpyouplay.com/welcome.html
>
>(and other places too).
>
>2. Is is a good point. But there's so few mainstream developers making 
>deliberate accessibity efforts that take into account specific 
>disabilities. Here's a list of some:
>
>http://www.oneswitch.org.uk/2/pioneers.htm
>http://gameaccessibility.blogspot.com/
>
>3. Forums here:
>
>http://www.game-accessibility.com/forum/
>http://www.retroremakes.com/forum2/forumdisplay.php?f=84
>http://ablegamers.com/component/option,com_fireboard/Itemid,606/
>
>We need the support of more people though!
>
>Barrie
>www.OneSwitch.org.uk
>www.igda.org/accessibility
>
>----- Original Message ----- From: "John Bannick" <jbannick at 7128.com>
>To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
>Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 4:05 PM
>Subject: Re: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News
>
>
>>Reid is right.
>>
>>There are developers right now who want their work to be accessible.
>>
>>This SIG could right now facilitate that by:
>>
>>1. Providing, distributing, and publicizing a concise, specific set of 
>>functional criteria that define what means accessible.
>>2. Compiling, publishing, and publicizing an annual list of which 
>>companies and games meet those criteria.
>>3. Maintaining a forum (The currently rather drifting Game Accessibility 
>>Project comes to mind) where developers can go for immediate help.
>>
>>I'm a developer of games that are accessible.
>>Have shipped 22 different revenue-generating products in a wide variety 
>>of vertical markets in the last 30 years.
>>Am neither stupid nor lazy.
>>And don't see any of the 3 above items.
>>
>>None of the 3 items should take long to build as a first cut.
>>
>>And if not from this SIG, then from where?
>>
>>John Bannick
>>CTO
>>7-128 Software
>>
>>
>>At 02:26 AM 12/1/2007, you wrote:
>>>Please, can we stop with the negative talk about GDC and the game
>>>industry? I work in the game industry for LucasArts. Just last week I
>>>talked to a highly respected programmer and he's 100% behind us and
>>>wants to talk about what we can do to improve accessibility in our
>>>games after our current milestone is finished. There are dozens of
>>>people at LucasArts that support game accessibility. Nintendo totally
>>>gets it, EA Games totally gets it with their Family Play modes in
>>>their sports games. Peter Molyneux gets it, Will Wright... the list
>>>goes on and on.
>>>
>>>It's offensive to me when people of this SIG accuse developers of not
>>>caring because WE DO CARE. The last thing you want to do is insult the
>>>people you have to work with. It's the quickest way to turn them away
>>>from our cause.
>>>
>>>So, instead of complaining, lets do something about it! First,
>>>everyone here needs to understand what it's like for developers and
>>>why it's so hard for them to adopt accessibility features.
>>>
>>>1. Limited financial resources - Games are very expensive to make and
>>>any new features adds to the cost. Before you can add accessibility
>>>features you must have a game and that's where most of the money is
>>>spent first.
>>>
>>>2. Limited time - Game development is incredibly complex and hard to
>>>tame. No matter how much extra time gets budgeted into the production
>>>schedule, it always runs out well before all tasks are complete. When
>>>this happens, features get cut in order to save the core of the game
>>>and again, without a game, there can't be any accessibility features.
>>>Because this usually happens so late, there isn't enough time to work
>>>on accessibility features before the game has to ship.
>>>
>>>3. Limited information - Even if a developer was pro-active and
>>>scheduled the development of accessibility features into the games'
>>>development schedule, there's still a major lack of knowledge and
>>>tools that enable them to do their job. The SIG has been thinking
>>>about accessibility features for years and we have all the solutions,
>>>but developers don't yet. We need to make ourselves known and readily
>>>available to help them.
>>>
>>>What can we do to solve these issues? We need to develop our
>>>relationships with developers and offer our assistance. Our attempts
>>>to work with GarageGames is a good start. When a new game is announced
>>>we should contact them and offer our expertise.
>>>
>>>We have GOT to get a website up so that we can communicate our
>>>abilities and expertise to our target audiences (game developers).
>>>
>>>But there are technical issues and many of us are volunteers and so
>>>things move very slowly.
>>>
>>>Several of us are writing guidelines for implementing certain features
>>>but again, this is a slow process. Others are doing research. Going to
>>>conferences is awesome. Writing articles to Gamasutra is great as
>>>well.
>>>
>>>Eitan is right, we have to "sell" our expertise. It's not that
>>>developers don't care, they don't know that they SHOULD care.
>>>
>>>-Reid
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>games_access mailing list
>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>
>>>
>>>--
>>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>>Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.11/1161 - Release Date: 
>>>11/30/2007 12:12 PM
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>games_access mailing list
>>games_access at igda.org
>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>
>--
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 
>269.16.12/1163 - Release Date: 12/1/2007 12:05 PM



From hinn at uiuc.edu  Sat Dec  1 13:29:04 2007
From: hinn at uiuc.edu (d. michelle hinn)
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 12:29:04 -0600
Subject: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News
In-Reply-To: <6.1.0.6.2.20071201123300.01d9e6a0@enigami.com>
References: <006501c8312b$82902a60$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
	<p0623090ac37223cd87e8@130.126.29.21>
	<a6673b8d0711271244m7b678e79ye94e3a7688c020e2@mail.gmail.com>
	<836db6300711300020r477e9abbldc4a6261effa5686@mail.gmail.com>
	<008701c8337d$ac6de170$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
	<p0623090fc3760c1b8d7d@130.126.29.21>
	<30EC442C-11A9-416C-BE37-0540384E8C0A@pininteractive.com>
	<000301c833bf$4c509a20$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
	<3dd2060e0711302009g3635fb8eq5a12c64cb86a5972@mail.gmail.com>
	<a6673b8d0711302326j60766890s4e63c3634b5f6bf5@mail.gmail.com>
	<6.1.0.6.2.20071201103852.01d66f38@enigami.com>
	<p0623091cc3774402a76e@[130.126.29.21]>
	<6.1.0.6.2.20071201123300.01d9e6a0@enigami.com>
Message-ID: <p06230924c37756d7115a@[130.126.29.21]>

Great!

I think the first places to look are the places Barrie mentioned in 
his email -- synthesizing those efforts would go far as a first step.

Most of the ideas that are suggested aren't all that formidable -- 
they just can't get done if no one does them. :)

Michelle

>Michelle,
>
>Well put.
>
>So OK. I volunteer to assemble, contribute to, and be responsible 
>for delivery of Item 1.
>
>This means:
>
>1. Getting from you good folks any work in progress you want to 
>share, synthesizing it into something that works, getting a quick 
>review by anyone here who is interested, and delivering a first cut 
>of SIG Game Accessibility Criteria.
>
>2. Getting from anyone here who wants to contribute, and 
>contributing to, a list of target developers, organizations, 
>institutions, and distributors we send this to, getting a quick 
>review, and delivering a first cut Distribution List.
>
>3. Writing a first draft cover letter /  promo piece, that is sent 
>with the Criteria, getting a quick review, and delivering this first 
>cut Cover Letter.
>
>All of the above sent to you, Michelle NLT 15 January, 2008.
>That way you get the volunteer work, you maintain control, and 
>everyone is included.
>
>BTW. This isn't nearly as formidable as developing coding standards 
>for the 50 engineers who did the software that laid out the NY 
>Times, and surviving the process.
>
>Does this work for you, Michelle?
>
>John Bannick
>
>At 12:24 PM 12/1/2007, you wrote:
>>All of the things John mentions are projects we have talked about 
>>and/or taken passes at (the top ten list from two years ago and now 
>>the new project that Barrie has started up, etc). Others have 
>>brought up other ideas that we've either done or attempted and then 
>>the projects lost momentum. All these things are great but there's 
>>a problem...these things also take active volunteers in the SIG and 
>>from that perspective our numbers are low. So we need people who 
>>are willing to put in the time and may/may not get any 
>>reimbursement for that time and every project cannot be started and 
>>maintained by me.
>>
>>So instead of continuing to criticize ourselves (I know...I started 
>>it but I was really mad after killing myself over the proposals at 
>>deadline), the industry, the GDC etc...who from WITHIN this SIG can 
>>put in the time needed for these things AND actually follow 
>>through? No, it's not fair that we aren't in a position to 
>>reimburse people for time and that won't change in the near future. 
>>But it's something that will have to change and it will change but 
>>we can't just wait for that day to come (because it won't come if 
>>we don't put in the sweat equity now). People need to honestly 
>>commit the time and work because they believe in making change. 
>>Take some of that anger and tell me what YOU are willing to do to 
>>help us make change. Take ownership of something on behalf of the 
>>SIG. Ideas are great...but we need people who will put in the work 
>>so that the "SIG" is able to do these things.
>>
>>So who will join in putting in some volunteer time so that these 
>>ideas can become reality?
>>
>>Michelle
>>
>>>Reid is right.
>>>
>>>There are developers right now who want their work to be accessible.
>>>
>>>This SIG could right now facilitate that by:
>>>
>>>1. Providing, distributing, and publicizing a concise, specific 
>>>set of functional criteria that define what means accessible.
>>>2. Compiling, publishing, and publicizing an annual list of which 
>>>companies and games meet those criteria.
>>>3. Maintaining a forum (The currently rather drifting Game 
>>>Accessibility Project comes to mind) where developers can go for 
>>>immediate help.
>>>
>>>I'm a developer of games that are accessible.
>>>Have shipped 22 different revenue-generating products in a wide 
>>>variety of vertical markets in the last 30 years.
>>>Am neither stupid nor lazy.
>>>And don't see any of the 3 above items.
>>>
>>>None of the 3 items should take long to build as a first cut.
>>>
>>>And if not from this SIG, then from where?
>>>
>>>John Bannick
>>>CTO
>>>7-128 Software
>>>
>>>
>>>At 02:26 AM 12/1/2007, you wrote:
>>>>Please, can we stop with the negative talk about GDC and the game
>>>>industry? I work in the game industry for LucasArts. Just last week I
>>>>talked to a highly respected programmer and he's 100% behind us and
>>>>wants to talk about what we can do to improve accessibility in our
>>>>games after our current milestone is finished. There are dozens of
>>>>people at LucasArts that support game accessibility. Nintendo totally
>>>>gets it, EA Games totally gets it with their Family Play modes in
>>>>their sports games. Peter Molyneux gets it, Will Wright... the list
>>>>goes on and on.
>>>>
>>>>It's offensive to me when people of this SIG accuse developers of not
>>>>caring because WE DO CARE. The last thing you want to do is insult the
>>>>people you have to work with. It's the quickest way to turn them away
>>>>from our cause.
>>>>
>>>>So, instead of complaining, lets do something about it! First,
>>>>everyone here needs to understand what it's like for developers and
>>>>why it's so hard for them to adopt accessibility features.
>>>>
>>>>1. Limited financial resources - Games are very expensive to make and
>>>>any new features adds to the cost. Before you can add accessibility
>>>>features you must have a game and that's where most of the money is
>>>>spent first.
>>>>
>>>>2. Limited time - Game development is incredibly complex and hard to
>>>>tame. No matter how much extra time gets budgeted into the production
>>>>schedule, it always runs out well before all tasks are complete. When
>>>>this happens, features get cut in order to save the core of the game
>>>>and again, without a game, there can't be any accessibility features.
>>>>Because this usually happens so late, there isn't enough time to work
>>>>on accessibility features before the game has to ship.
>>>>
>>>>3. Limited information - Even if a developer was pro-active and
>>>>scheduled the development of accessibility features into the games'
>>>>development schedule, there's still a major lack of knowledge and
>>>>tools that enable them to do their job. The SIG has been thinking
>>>>about accessibility features for years and we have all the solutions,
>>>>but developers don't yet. We need to make ourselves known and readily
>>>>available to help them.
>>>>
>>>>What can we do to solve these issues? We need to develop our
>>>>relationships with developers and offer our assistance. Our attempts
>>>>to work with GarageGames is a good start. When a new game is announced
>>>>we should contact them and offer our expertise.
>>>>
>>>>We have GOT to get a website up so that we can communicate our
>>>>abilities and expertise to our target audiences (game developers).
>>>>
>>>>But there are technical issues and many of us are volunteers and so
>>>>things move very slowly.
>>>>
>>>>Several of us are writing guidelines for implementing certain features
>>>>but again, this is a slow process. Others are doing research. Going to
>>>>conferences is awesome. Writing articles to Gamasutra is great as
>>>>well.
>>>>
>>>>Eitan is right, we have to "sell" our expertise. It's not that
>>>>developers don't care, they don't know that they SHOULD care.
>>>>
>>>>-Reid
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>games_access mailing list
>>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>--
>>>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>>>Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.11/1161 - Release Date: 
>>>>11/30/2007 12:12 PM
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>games_access mailing list
>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>games_access mailing list
>>games_access at igda.org
>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>
>>
>>--
>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 
>>269.16.12/1163 - Release Date: 12/1/2007 12:05 PM
>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access



From jbannick at 7128.com  Sat Dec  1 13:31:34 2007
From: jbannick at 7128.com (John Bannick)
Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2007 13:31:34 -0500
Subject: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News
In-Reply-To: <003f01c83443$9344ec40$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
References: <006501c8312b$82902a60$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
	<p0623090ac37223cd87e8@130.126.29.21>
	<a6673b8d0711271244m7b678e79ye94e3a7688c020e2@mail.gmail.com>
	<836db6300711300020r477e9abbldc4a6261effa5686@mail.gmail.com>
	<008701c8337d$ac6de170$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
	<p0623090fc3760c1b8d7d@130.126.29.21>
	<30EC442C-11A9-416C-BE37-0540384E8C0A@pininteractive.com>
	<000301c833bf$4c509a20$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
	<3dd2060e0711302009g3635fb8eq5a12c64cb86a5972@mail.gmail.com>
	<a6673b8d0711302326j60766890s4e63c3634b5f6bf5@mail.gmail.com>
	<003f01c83443$9344ec40$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.2.20071201133102.01d9fba8@enigami.com>

Robert,

No. Not at all. It's just one of my standard disclaimers. Been using it for 
years.

jhb

At 12:57 PM 12/1/2007, you wrote:
>Hi John.  I hope that you don't think anyone thinks that consensus is going
>around about " Am neither stupid nor lazy."
>
>Robert
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
>On Behalf Of John Bannick
>Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 11:05 AM
>To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
>Subject: Re: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News
>
>Reid is right.
>
>There are developers right now who want their work to be accessible.
>
>This SIG could right now facilitate that by:
>
>1. Providing, distributing, and publicizing a concise, specific set of
>functional criteria that define what means accessible.
>2. Compiling, publishing, and publicizing an annual list of which companies
>and games meet those criteria.
>3. Maintaining a forum (The currently rather drifting Game Accessibility
>Project comes to mind) where developers can go for immediate help.
>
>I'm a developer of games that are accessible.
>Have shipped 22 different revenue-generating products in a wide variety of
>vertical markets in the last 30 years.
>Am neither stupid nor lazy.
>And don't see any of the 3 above items.
>
>None of the 3 items should take long to build as a first cut.
>
>And if not from this SIG, then from where?
>
>John Bannick
>CTO
>7-128 Software
>
>
>At 02:26 AM 12/1/2007, you wrote:
> >Please, can we stop with the negative talk about GDC and the game
> >industry? I work in the game industry for LucasArts. Just last week I
> >talked to a highly respected programmer and he's 100% behind us and
> >wants to talk about what we can do to improve accessibility in our
> >games after our current milestone is finished. There are dozens of
> >people at LucasArts that support game accessibility. Nintendo totally
> >gets it, EA Games totally gets it with their Family Play modes in
> >their sports games. Peter Molyneux gets it, Will Wright... the list
> >goes on and on.
> >
> >It's offensive to me when people of this SIG accuse developers of not
> >caring because WE DO CARE. The last thing you want to do is insult the
> >people you have to work with. It's the quickest way to turn them away
> >from our cause.
> >
> >So, instead of complaining, lets do something about it! First,
> >everyone here needs to understand what it's like for developers and
> >why it's so hard for them to adopt accessibility features.
> >
> >1. Limited financial resources - Games are very expensive to make and
> >any new features adds to the cost. Before you can add accessibility
> >features you must have a game and that's where most of the money is
> >spent first.
> >
> >2. Limited time - Game development is incredibly complex and hard to
> >tame. No matter how much extra time gets budgeted into the production
> >schedule, it always runs out well before all tasks are complete. When
> >this happens, features get cut in order to save the core of the game
> >and again, without a game, there can't be any accessibility features.
> >Because this usually happens so late, there isn't enough time to work
> >on accessibility features before the game has to ship.
> >
> >3. Limited information - Even if a developer was pro-active and
> >scheduled the development of accessibility features into the games'
> >development schedule, there's still a major lack of knowledge and
> >tools that enable them to do their job. The SIG has been thinking
> >about accessibility features for years and we have all the solutions,
> >but developers don't yet. We need to make ourselves known and readily
> >available to help them.
> >
> >What can we do to solve these issues? We need to develop our
> >relationships with developers and offer our assistance. Our attempts
> >to work with GarageGames is a good start. When a new game is announced
> >we should contact them and offer our expertise.
> >
> >We have GOT to get a website up so that we can communicate our
> >abilities and expertise to our target audiences (game developers).
> >
> >But there are technical issues and many of us are volunteers and so
> >things move very slowly.
> >
> >Several of us are writing guidelines for implementing certain features
> >but again, this is a slow process. Others are doing research. Going to
> >conferences is awesome. Writing articles to Gamasutra is great as
> >well.
> >
> >Eitan is right, we have to "sell" our expertise. It's not that
> >developers don't care, they don't know that they SHOULD care.
> >
> >-Reid
> >_______________________________________________
> >games_access mailing list
> >games_access at igda.org
> >http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
> >
> >
> >--
> >No virus found in this incoming message.
> >Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> >Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.11/1161 - Release Date:
> >11/30/2007 12:12 PM
>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>
>--
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.12/1163 - Release Date: 
>12/1/2007 12:05 PM



From richard at audiogames.net  Sat Dec  1 13:39:56 2007
From: richard at audiogames.net (AudioGames.net)
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 19:39:56 +0100
Subject: [games_access] FORUM (was Re:  GDC 2008: VERY Bad News)
References: <006501c8312b$82902a60$6501a8c0@Inspiron><p0623090ac37223cd87e8@130.126.29.21><a6673b8d0711271244m7b678e79ye94e3a7688c020e2@mail.gmail.com><836db6300711300020r477e9abbldc4a6261effa5686@mail.gmail.com><008701c8337d$ac6de170$6501a8c0@Inspiron><p0623090fc3760c1b8d7d@130.126.29.21><30EC442C-11A9-416C-BE37-0540384E8C0A@pininteractive.com><000301c833bf$4c509a20$6501a8c0@Inspiron><3dd2060e0711302009g3635fb8eq5a12c64cb86a5972@mail.gmail.com><a6673b8d0711302326j60766890s4e63c3634b5f6bf5@mail.gmail.com><6.1.0.6.2.20071201103852.01d66f38@enigami.com><053001c83439$da0092b0$0202a8c0@oneswitch>
	<6.1.0.6.2.20071201125153.01db69b0@enigami.com>
Message-ID: <008901c83449$926eefe0$6402a8c0@Delletje>

Hi,

Just so you know: the GA forum was left unattended for some time but the 
spam was removed as far as I could see. The forum is still pretty popular, 
it's just that not that many SIG people attend it (because it is not an 
"offical SIG" forum?).

As I also said in the past: the Accessibility foundation is still awaiting 
to be approached by the GA-SIG for collaborating on GA.com. I already 
explained to a couple of you that with me and Sander having left the 
foundation, most expertise left too. The foundation is currently focusing on 
other projects and does not have the resources to maintain this website at 
the moment. I already discussed a possible collaboration with GA-SIG with my 
boss - EVEN to the extend of GA-SIG ADOPTING GA.com and chaing it to a 
GA-SIG format - as if it was its own - with Accessibility only sponsoring 
the website in the form of hosting it. As far as I know, the foundation is 
still up for that. However, IGDA politics intervened which resulted in that 
IGDA GA-SIG still does not have a website to call their own. If GA-SIG does 
not want to collaborate with GA.com then I would still suggest to buy 
www.gasig.org and simply make a website under that for as long as IGDA 
politics keep intervening.

Greets,

Richard




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John Bannick" <jbannick at 7128.com>
To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 7:20 PM
Subject: Re: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News


> Barrie,
>
> No. Not harsh. Just on point. (Programmers are not hired for their social 
> skills.)
>
> 1. Yes.
>
> But this SIG is unique in that it is the one active place that covers 
> multiple challenges, has an international audience, and clearly has the 
> ears of some key industry players. If this SIG has its own concise, 
> specific, answer to "what do you want us developers to do?" please point 
> me to it.
>
> 2. Again, this SIG has a unique position in that it can credibly publish 
> such a list, that address multiple challenges, internationally, and has 
> the ear of the major developers. Is there any such recognized list of 
> companies and games? Why not from this SIG?
>
> 3. Please.
>
> I'm on the Game Accessibility Project forum every day. It's getting 
> spammed without intervention. It's much lower volume than such a fine 
> effort warrants.  Richard says he's out of there. It's adrift.
>
> And Mark's forum is outstanding, but does not right now have the attention 
> of the industry leaders, or actual developers, that this SIG does. (No 
> criticism, he's doing a wonderful job.) I'm on Audyssey every day and it 
> has a very active set of game developers that help each other all the 
> time. But it's limited to the blind and VI folks.
>
> I'd not heard of the RetroRemakes forum (thanks for the tip) but according 
> to its main page, it's most recent post was in August.
>
> Show me a forum where mainstream game developers meet to help each other 
> make accessibility happen.
>
> The three proposals stand.
>
> John
>
> At 11:47 AM 12/1/2007, you wrote:
>>A little harsh, John perhaps?
>>
>>1. Has been covered to various degrees here:
>>
>>http://www.oneswitch.org.uk/2/ARTICLES/physical-barriers.htm
>>http://www.ics.forth.gr/hci/ua-games/game-over/
>>http://www.helpyouplay.com/welcome.html
>>
>>(and other places too).
>>
>>2. Is is a good point. But there's so few mainstream developers making 
>>deliberate accessibity efforts that take into account specific 
>>disabilities. Here's a list of some:
>>
>>http://www.oneswitch.org.uk/2/pioneers.htm
>>http://gameaccessibility.blogspot.com/
>>
>>3. Forums here:
>>
>>http://www.game-accessibility.com/forum/
>>http://www.retroremakes.com/forum2/forumdisplay.php?f=84
>>http://ablegamers.com/component/option,com_fireboard/Itemid,606/
>>
>>We need the support of more people though!
>>
>>Barrie
>>www.OneSwitch.org.uk
>>www.igda.org/accessibility
>>
>>----- Original Message ----- From: "John Bannick" <jbannick at 7128.com>
>>To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
>>Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 4:05 PM
>>Subject: Re: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News
>>
>>
>>>Reid is right.
>>>
>>>There are developers right now who want their work to be accessible.
>>>
>>>This SIG could right now facilitate that by:
>>>
>>>1. Providing, distributing, and publicizing a concise, specific set of 
>>>functional criteria that define what means accessible.
>>>2. Compiling, publishing, and publicizing an annual list of which 
>>>companies and games meet those criteria.
>>>3. Maintaining a forum (The currently rather drifting Game Accessibility 
>>>Project comes to mind) where developers can go for immediate help.
>>>
>>>I'm a developer of games that are accessible.
>>>Have shipped 22 different revenue-generating products in a wide variety 
>>>of vertical markets in the last 30 years.
>>>Am neither stupid nor lazy.
>>>And don't see any of the 3 above items.
>>>
>>>None of the 3 items should take long to build as a first cut.
>>>
>>>And if not from this SIG, then from where?
>>>
>>>John Bannick
>>>CTO
>>>7-128 Software
>>>
>>>
>>>At 02:26 AM 12/1/2007, you wrote:
>>>>Please, can we stop with the negative talk about GDC and the game
>>>>industry? I work in the game industry for LucasArts. Just last week I
>>>>talked to a highly respected programmer and he's 100% behind us and
>>>>wants to talk about what we can do to improve accessibility in our
>>>>games after our current milestone is finished. There are dozens of
>>>>people at LucasArts that support game accessibility. Nintendo totally
>>>>gets it, EA Games totally gets it with their Family Play modes in
>>>>their sports games. Peter Molyneux gets it, Will Wright... the list
>>>>goes on and on.
>>>>
>>>>It's offensive to me when people of this SIG accuse developers of not
>>>>caring because WE DO CARE. The last thing you want to do is insult the
>>>>people you have to work with. It's the quickest way to turn them away
>>>>from our cause.
>>>>
>>>>So, instead of complaining, lets do something about it! First,
>>>>everyone here needs to understand what it's like for developers and
>>>>why it's so hard for them to adopt accessibility features.
>>>>
>>>>1. Limited financial resources - Games are very expensive to make and
>>>>any new features adds to the cost. Before you can add accessibility
>>>>features you must have a game and that's where most of the money is
>>>>spent first.
>>>>
>>>>2. Limited time - Game development is incredibly complex and hard to
>>>>tame. No matter how much extra time gets budgeted into the production
>>>>schedule, it always runs out well before all tasks are complete. When
>>>>this happens, features get cut in order to save the core of the game
>>>>and again, without a game, there can't be any accessibility features.
>>>>Because this usually happens so late, there isn't enough time to work
>>>>on accessibility features before the game has to ship.
>>>>
>>>>3. Limited information - Even if a developer was pro-active and
>>>>scheduled the development of accessibility features into the games'
>>>>development schedule, there's still a major lack of knowledge and
>>>>tools that enable them to do their job. The SIG has been thinking
>>>>about accessibility features for years and we have all the solutions,
>>>>but developers don't yet. We need to make ourselves known and readily
>>>>available to help them.
>>>>
>>>>What can we do to solve these issues? We need to develop our
>>>>relationships with developers and offer our assistance. Our attempts
>>>>to work with GarageGames is a good start. When a new game is announced
>>>>we should contact them and offer our expertise.
>>>>
>>>>We have GOT to get a website up so that we can communicate our
>>>>abilities and expertise to our target audiences (game developers).
>>>>
>>>>But there are technical issues and many of us are volunteers and so
>>>>things move very slowly.
>>>>
>>>>Several of us are writing guidelines for implementing certain features
>>>>but again, this is a slow process. Others are doing research. Going to
>>>>conferences is awesome. Writing articles to Gamasutra is great as
>>>>well.
>>>>
>>>>Eitan is right, we have to "sell" our expertise. It's not that
>>>>developers don't care, they don't know that they SHOULD care.
>>>>
>>>>-Reid
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>games_access mailing list
>>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>--
>>>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>>>Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.11/1161 - Release Date: 
>>>>11/30/2007 12:12 PM
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>games_access mailing list
>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>games_access mailing list
>>games_access at igda.org
>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>
>>
>>--
>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 
>>269.16.12/1163 - Release Date: 12/1/2007 12:05 PM
>
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access 



From richard at audiogames.net  Sat Dec  1 13:41:08 2007
From: richard at audiogames.net (AudioGames.net)
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 19:41:08 +0100
Subject: [games_access] List "extra posting" weirdness
References: <006501c8312b$82902a60$6501a8c0@Inspiron><p0623090ac37223cd87e8@130.126.29.21><a6673b8d0711271244m7b678e79ye94e3a7688c020e2@mail.gmail.com><836db6300711300020r477e9abbldc4a6261effa5686@mail.gmail.com><008701c8337d$ac6de170$6501a8c0@Inspiron><p0623090fc3760c1b8d7d@130.126.29.21><30EC442C-11A9-416C-BE37-0540384E8C0A@pininteractive.com><000301c833bf$4c509a20$6501a8c0@Inspiron><3dd2060e0711302009g3635fb8eq5a12c64cb86a5972@mail.gmail.com><a6673b8d0711302326j60766890s4e63c3634b5f6bf5@mail.gmail.com><6.1.0.6.2.20071201103852.01d66f38@enigami.com><p0623091cc3774402a76e@[130.126.29.21]><6.1.0.6.2.20071201123300.01d9e6a0@enigami.com>
	<p06230923c3775635eb52@[130.126.29.21]>
Message-ID: <00a401c83449$bd298150$6402a8c0@Delletje>

Me too and that one of my earlier posts only just got through...


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "d. michelle hinn" <hinn at uiuc.edu>
To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 7:21 PM
Subject: [games_access] List "extra posting" weirdness


> Hey everyone --
> 
> Maybe it's just my server but I keep getting repeats of messages, 
> including my own. I'm trying to figure out if something is glitched 
> up with the server. In the meantime, if you get messages more than 
> once...I guess just think of it as "wow, that person REALLY means 
> what they say!" ;)
> 
> Michelle
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access


From jbannick at 7128.com  Sat Dec  1 13:43:51 2007
From: jbannick at 7128.com (John Bannick)
Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2007 13:43:51 -0500
Subject: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News
In-Reply-To: <001c01c83444$fd9c0460$6402a8c0@Delletje>
References: <006501c8312b$82902a60$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
	<p0623090ac37223cd87e8@130.126.29.21>
	<a6673b8d0711271244m7b678e79ye94e3a7688c020e2@mail.gmail.com>
	<836db6300711300020r477e9abbldc4a6261effa5686@mail.gmail.com>
	<008701c8337d$ac6de170$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
	<p0623090fc3760c1b8d7d@130.126.29.21>
	<30EC442C-11A9-416C-BE37-0540384E8C0A@pininteractive.com>
	<000301c833bf$4c509a20$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
	<3dd2060e0711302009g3635fb8eq5a12c64cb86a5972@mail.gmail.com>
	<a6673b8d0711302326j60766890s4e63c3634b5f6bf5@mail.gmail.com>
	<6.1.0.6.2.20071201103852.01d66f38@enigami.com>
	<001c01c83444$fd9c0460$6402a8c0@Delletje>
Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.2.20071201133304.01e14f20@enigami.com>

Richard,

Yes. Exactly!

I'd love to be able to refer to a concise, specific, consensus-based list 
of criteria for game accessibility.
Much preferably from everyone out there who have much more experience with 
this.
Had to gen my own when 7-128 Software started.

None of this is a complaint or criticism. The folks making this SIG happen 
have been bleeding and dying.
Just that I've shipped commercial products within 90 days of initial 
concept (sans death march) and know what a few smart people can do when 
focused on deliverables.

Michelle provides a splendid leader, the folks active here know their 
stuff, and the SIG has gained the ear of major players.
Why not deliver three tangible means for actually achieving increased 
accessibility?

John

At 01:07 PM 12/1/2007, you wrote:
>Hi,
>
>I agree with John. I think too much focus of the SIG (at least the past 
>year and a half or so) has been on "spreading the word" and not so much on 
>defining "game accessibility fundamentals". I guess most of you are also 
>aware of this and I agree that spreading the word is important too. But I 
>think it is about time we finish A (or The) Definitive v1.0 Set of Game 
>Accessibility Design Guidelines/Principles/Heuristics/Patterns! Once and 
>for all. Several people here are very anxious about getting logos (yes, I 
>know - logos for very specific functionalities[1]) as soon as possible and 
>stuff like that but WITHOUT a good definition of accessibility it doesn't 
>mean anything. BTW John, I'm not saying you are stupid but... (grin)... 
>you claim to develop game that "are accessible" yet you yourself do not 
>know a "specific set of functional criteria that define what means 
>accessible"... ;) (just a joke ;) > but it is actually an example of the 
>problem > I know some of us have been saying "this game is accessible" or 
>"this feature is accessible" in the past but is it really...? For example, 
>many of the games and features that Barrie often names as "being 
>accessible" absolutely do not improve the accessibility for my personal 
>target group (visually impaired gamers). But when you visit the links that 
>Barrie posted in answer of John's email you'll see that they DO NOT 
>provide coherent information of design guidelines/heuristics for game 
>accessibility, nor a final definition/description of what game 
>accessibility should consist of. There is a lot of information out there, 
>including old and also invalid information [2] in my opinion but it does 
>not cover what needs to be done to make games accessible. For example, 
>Eelke's (pretty good!) design patterns are a formal way of describing 
>specific design problems and their solutions, but not everything 
>concerning game accessibility might be able to be captured in the format 
>of patterns [3]. My point: there is alot of information out there that is 
>not coherent and not all information is there. And therefore agree with 
>John that if it's not the SIG's job to fix this issue, whose job is it?
>
>John's email reminded me that that was what initially draw me to this SIG 
>in the first place (being busy with game accessibility myself and 
>disagreeing with the initial SIG Top 10 guidelines and hopeing to 
>contribute to a better definition and design guidelines) and now painfully 
>lets me conclude that here I am, still working on my initial draft [4] 
>more or less by myself (see my GDC08 proposal and 3 years of posts to the 
>list concerning guidelines). John's email also made me realise how little 
>the SIG has published. I know several of us have written articles, but as 
>far as I know - if you don't count the SIG activity at conferences, the 
>last actual SIG publication was 2005?
>
>Sigh... ok.. point of this email: I believe we are all doing the best we 
>can, with limited resources and busy lives. And we all want to do as much 
>as possible. Several of us have already aimed their actual careers at 
>that. And we already scheduled several committees for specific activities 
>such as research and industry and stuff like that. So cheers and drinks 
>for us :) And the active <10 of us can't do more than we can. But, 
>logically, one of the best next steps we can now do is to make a worldwide 
>publication with a definitive set of descriptions of game accessibility 
>functionality, with design guidelines and where possible, design patterns. 
>And since The Book will not coming for another couple of years or so I 
>think a simple .pdf paper with the IGDA logo will do.
>Too much of the SIG's knowledge is floating in the air (or in the heads of 
><10 individuals around the world). Why try to only ventilate that 
>knowledge at conferences? If we put that knowledge in a fixed form it will 
>help with BOTH awareness and more accessible games. I also the SIG 
>benefits from that - it will help ourselves get our personal thoughts out 
>and get in line with each other - something I think we now are not. 
>Therefore I think that such a publication is now much more needed than 
>anything else.
>
>Greets,
>
>Richard
>
>
>[1] like " contains captions" , "one switch accessible", etc. etc. which 
>in the end could mean about 39? logo's on your product - which is not very 
>accessible?
>[2] http://gameaccess.medialt.no/guide.php
>[3] I prefer a hierarchical list of keypoints > guidelines > patterns - a 
>bit like seen in my doc [4].
>[4] http://www2.hku.nl/~mosh/ga/gatheoryshort012_2OLD.doc
>
>
>
>
>
>----- Original Message ----- From: "John Bannick" <jbannick at 7128.com>
>To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
>Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 5:05 PM
>Subject: Re: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News
>
>
>>Reid is right.
>>
>>There are developers right now who want their work to be accessible.
>>
>>This SIG could right now facilitate that by:
>>
>>1. Providing, distributing, and publicizing a concise, specific set of 
>>functional criteria that define what means accessible.
>>2. Compiling, publishing, and publicizing an annual list of which 
>>companies and games meet those criteria.
>>3. Maintaining a forum (The currently rather drifting Game Accessibility 
>>Project comes to mind) where developers can go for immediate help.
>>
>>I'm a developer of games that are accessible.
>>Have shipped 22 different revenue-generating products in a wide variety 
>>of vertical markets in the last 30 years.
>>Am neither stupid nor lazy.
>>And don't see any of the 3 above items.
>>
>>None of the 3 items should take long to build as a first cut.
>>
>>And if not from this SIG, then from where?
>>
>>John Bannick
>>CTO
>>7-128 Software
>>
>>
>>At 02:26 AM 12/1/2007, you wrote:
>>>Please, can we stop with the negative talk about GDC and the game
>>>industry? I work in the game industry for LucasArts. Just last week I
>>>talked to a highly respected programmer and he's 100% behind us and
>>>wants to talk about what we can do to improve accessibility in our
>>>games after our current milestone is finished. There are dozens of
>>>people at LucasArts that support game accessibility. Nintendo totally
>>>gets it, EA Games totally gets it with their Family Play modes in
>>>their sports games. Peter Molyneux gets it, Will Wright... the list
>>>goes on and on.
>>>
>>>It's offensive to me when people of this SIG accuse developers of not
>>>caring because WE DO CARE. The last thing you want to do is insult the
>>>people you have to work with. It's the quickest way to turn them away
>>>from our cause.
>>>
>>>So, instead of complaining, lets do something about it! First,
>>>everyone here needs to understand what it's like for developers and
>>>why it's so hard for them to adopt accessibility features.
>>>
>>>1. Limited financial resources - Games are very expensive to make and
>>>any new features adds to the cost. Before you can add accessibility
>>>features you must have a game and that's where most of the money is
>>>spent first.
>>>
>>>2. Limited time - Game development is incredibly complex and hard to
>>>tame. No matter how much extra time gets budgeted into the production
>>>schedule, it always runs out well before all tasks are complete. When
>>>this happens, features get cut in order to save the core of the game
>>>and again, without a game, there can't be any accessibility features.
>>>Because this usually happens so late, there isn't enough time to work
>>>on accessibility features before the game has to ship.
>>>
>>>3. Limited information - Even if a developer was pro-active and
>>>scheduled the development of accessibility features into the games'
>>>development schedule, there's still a major lack of knowledge and
>>>tools that enable them to do their job. The SIG has been thinking
>>>about accessibility features for years and we have all the solutions,
>>>but developers don't yet. We need to make ourselves known and readily
>>>available to help them.
>>>
>>>What can we do to solve these issues? We need to develop our
>>>relationships with developers and offer our assistance. Our attempts
>>>to work with GarageGames is a good start. When a new game is announced
>>>we should contact them and offer our expertise.
>>>
>>>We have GOT to get a website up so that we can communicate our
>>>abilities and expertise to our target audiences (game developers).
>>>
>>>But there are technical issues and many of us are volunteers and so
>>>things move very slowly.
>>>
>>>Several of us are writing guidelines for implementing certain features
>>>but again, this is a slow process. Others are doing research. Going to
>>>conferences is awesome. Writing articles to Gamasutra is great as
>>>well.
>>>
>>>Eitan is right, we have to "sell" our expertise. It's not that
>>>developers don't care, they don't know that they SHOULD care.
>>>
>>>-Reid
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>games_access mailing list
>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>
>>>
>>>--
>>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>>Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.11/1161 - Release Date: 
>>>11/30/2007 12:12 PM
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>games_access mailing list
>>games_access at igda.org
>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>
>--
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 
>269.16.12/1163 - Release Date: 12/1/2007 12:05 PM



From jbannick at 7128.com  Sat Dec  1 13:45:47 2007
From: jbannick at 7128.com (John Bannick)
Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2007 13:45:47 -0500
Subject: [games_access] List "extra posting" weirdness
In-Reply-To: <p06230923c3775635eb52@[130.126.29.21]>
References: <006501c8312b$82902a60$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
	<p0623090ac37223cd87e8@130.126.29.21>
	<a6673b8d0711271244m7b678e79ye94e3a7688c020e2@mail.gmail.com>
	<836db6300711300020r477e9abbldc4a6261effa5686@mail.gmail.com>
	<008701c8337d$ac6de170$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
	<p0623090fc3760c1b8d7d@130.126.29.21>
	<30EC442C-11A9-416C-BE37-0540384E8C0A@pininteractive.com>
	<000301c833bf$4c509a20$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
	<3dd2060e0711302009g3635fb8eq5a12c64cb86a5972@mail.gmail.com>
	<a6673b8d0711302326j60766890s4e63c3634b5f6bf5@mail.gmail.com>
	<6.1.0.6.2.20071201103852.01d66f38@enigami.com>
	<p0623091cc3774402a76e@[130.126.29.21]>
	<6.1.0.6.2.20071201123300.01d9e6a0@enigami.com>
	<p06230923c3775635eb52@[130.126.29.21]>
Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.2.20071201134507.01e241c8@enigami.com>

Michelle,

I'm SO glad you mentioned the repeats.
Looked like zombies had gotten loose on my computer.

jhb

At 01:21 PM 12/1/2007, you wrote:
>Hey everyone --
>
>Maybe it's just my server but I keep getting repeats of messages, 
>including my own. I'm trying to figure out if something is glitched up 
>with the server. In the meantime, if you get messages more than once...I 
>guess just think of it as "wow, that person REALLY means what they say!" ;)
>
>Michelle
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>
>--
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 
>269.16.12/1163 - Release Date: 12/1/2007 12:05 PM



From hinn at uiuc.edu  Sat Dec  1 13:46:44 2007
From: hinn at uiuc.edu (d. michelle hinn)
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 12:46:44 -0600
Subject: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News
In-Reply-To: <p06230924c37756d7115a@[130.126.29.21]>
References: <006501c8312b$82902a60$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
	<p0623090ac37223cd87e8@130.126.29.21>
	<a6673b8d0711271244m7b678e79ye94e3a7688c020e2@mail.gmail.com>
	<836db6300711300020r477e9abbldc4a6261effa5686@mail.gmail.com>
	<008701c8337d$ac6de170$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
	<p0623090fc3760c1b8d7d@130.126.29.21>
	<30EC442C-11A9-416C-BE37-0540384E8C0A@pininteractive.com>
	<000301c833bf$4c509a20$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
	<3dd2060e0711302009g3635fb8eq5a12c64cb86a5972@mail.gmail.com>
	<a6673b8d0711302326j60766890s4e63c3634b5f6bf5@mail.gmail.com>
	<6.1.0.6.2.20071201103852.01d66f38@enigami.com>
	<p0623091cc3774402a76e@[130.126.29.21]>
	<6.1.0.6.2.20071201123300.01d9e6a0@enigami.com>
	<p06230924c37756d7115a@[130.126.29.21]>
Message-ID: <p06230927c3775b1910bd@[130.126.29.21]>

And the next place would be Richard's document. :)

>Great!
>
>I think the first places to look are the places Barrie mentioned in 
>his email -- synthesizing those efforts would go far as a first step.
>
>Most of the ideas that are suggested aren't all that formidable -- 
>they just can't get done if no one does them. :)
>
>Michelle
>
>>Michelle,
>>
>>Well put.
>>
>>So OK. I volunteer to assemble, contribute to, and be responsible 
>>for delivery of Item 1.
>>
>>This means:
>>
>>1. Getting from you good folks any work in progress you want to 
>>share, synthesizing it into something that works, getting a quick 
>>review by anyone here who is interested, and delivering a first cut 
>>of SIG Game Accessibility Criteria.
>>
>>2. Getting from anyone here who wants to contribute, and 
>>contributing to, a list of target developers, organizations, 
>>institutions, and distributors we send this to, getting a quick 
>>review, and delivering a first cut Distribution List.
>>
>>3. Writing a first draft cover letter /  promo piece, that is sent 
>>with the Criteria, getting a quick review, and delivering this 
>>first cut Cover Letter.
>>
>>All of the above sent to you, Michelle NLT 15 January, 2008.
>>That way you get the volunteer work, you maintain control, and 
>>everyone is included.
>>
>>BTW. This isn't nearly as formidable as developing coding standards 
>>for the 50 engineers who did the software that laid out the NY 
>>Times, and surviving the process.
>>
>>Does this work for you, Michelle?
>>
>>John Bannick
>>
>>At 12:24 PM 12/1/2007, you wrote:
>>>All of the things John mentions are projects we have talked about 
>>>and/or taken passes at (the top ten list from two years ago and 
>>>now the new project that Barrie has started up, etc). Others have 
>>>brought up other ideas that we've either done or attempted and 
>>>then the projects lost momentum. All these things are great but 
>>>there's a problem...these things also take active volunteers in 
>>>the SIG and from that perspective our numbers are low. So we need 
>>>people who are willing to put in the time and may/may not get any 
>>>reimbursement for that time and every project cannot be started 
>>>and maintained by me.
>>>
>>>So instead of continuing to criticize ourselves (I know...I 
>>>started it but I was really mad after killing myself over the 
>>>proposals at deadline), the industry, the GDC etc...who from 
>>>WITHIN this SIG can put in the time needed for these things AND 
>>>actually follow through? No, it's not fair that we aren't in a 
>>>position to reimburse people for time and that won't change in the 
>>>near future. But it's something that will have to change and it 
>>>will change but we can't just wait for that day to come (because 
>>>it won't come if we don't put in the sweat equity now). People 
>>>need to honestly commit the time and work because they believe in 
>>>making change. Take some of that anger and tell me what YOU are 
>>>willing to do to help us make change. Take ownership of something 
>>>on behalf of the SIG. Ideas are great...but we need people who 
>>>will put in the work so that the "SIG" is able to do these things.
>>>
>>>So who will join in putting in some volunteer time so that these 
>>>ideas can become reality?
>>>
>>>Michelle
>>>
>>>>Reid is right.
>>>>
>>>>There are developers right now who want their work to be accessible.
>>>>
>>>>This SIG could right now facilitate that by:
>>>>
>>>>1. Providing, distributing, and publicizing a concise, specific 
>>>>set of functional criteria that define what means accessible.
>>>>2. Compiling, publishing, and publicizing an annual list of which 
>>>>companies and games meet those criteria.
>>>>3. Maintaining a forum (The currently rather drifting Game 
>>>>Accessibility Project comes to mind) where developers can go for 
>>>>immediate help.
>>>>
>>>>I'm a developer of games that are accessible.
>>>>Have shipped 22 different revenue-generating products in a wide 
>>>>variety of vertical markets in the last 30 years.
>>>>Am neither stupid nor lazy.
>>>>And don't see any of the 3 above items.
>>>>
>>>>None of the 3 items should take long to build as a first cut.
>>>>
>>>>And if not from this SIG, then from where?
>>>>
>>>>John Bannick
>>>>CTO
>>>>7-128 Software
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>At 02:26 AM 12/1/2007, you wrote:
>>>>>Please, can we stop with the negative talk about GDC and the game
>>>>>industry? I work in the game industry for LucasArts. Just last week I
>>>>>talked to a highly respected programmer and he's 100% behind us and
>>>>>wants to talk about what we can do to improve accessibility in our
>>>>>games after our current milestone is finished. There are dozens of
>>>>>people at LucasArts that support game accessibility. Nintendo totally
>>>>>gets it, EA Games totally gets it with their Family Play modes in
>>>>>their sports games. Peter Molyneux gets it, Will Wright... the list
>>>>>goes on and on.
>>>>>
>>>>>It's offensive to me when people of this SIG accuse developers of not
>>>>>caring because WE DO CARE. The last thing you want to do is insult the
>>>>>people you have to work with. It's the quickest way to turn them away
>>>>>from our cause.
>>>>>
>>>>>So, instead of complaining, lets do something about it! First,
>>>>>everyone here needs to understand what it's like for developers and
>>>>>why it's so hard for them to adopt accessibility features.
>>>>>
>>>>>1. Limited financial resources - Games are very expensive to make and
>>>>>any new features adds to the cost. Before you can add accessibility
>>>>>features you must have a game and that's where most of the money is
>>>>>spent first.
>>>>>
>>>>>2. Limited time - Game development is incredibly complex and hard to
>>>>>tame. No matter how much extra time gets budgeted into the production
>>>>>schedule, it always runs out well before all tasks are complete. When
>>>>>this happens, features get cut in order to save the core of the game
>>>>>and again, without a game, there can't be any accessibility features.
>>>>>Because this usually happens so late, there isn't enough time to work
>>>>>on accessibility features before the game has to ship.
>>>>>
>>>>>3. Limited information - Even if a developer was pro-active and
>>>>>scheduled the development of accessibility features into the games'
>>>>>development schedule, there's still a major lack of knowledge and
>>>>>tools that enable them to do their job. The SIG has been thinking
>>>>>about accessibility features for years and we have all the solutions,
>>>>>but developers don't yet. We need to make ourselves known and readily
>>>>>available to help them.
>>>>>
>>>>>What can we do to solve these issues? We need to develop our
>>>>>relationships with developers and offer our assistance. Our attempts
>>>>>to work with GarageGames is a good start. When a new game is announced
>>>>>we should contact them and offer our expertise.
>>>>>
>>>>>We have GOT to get a website up so that we can communicate our
>>>>>abilities and expertise to our target audiences (game developers).
>>>>>
>>>>>But there are technical issues and many of us are volunteers and so
>>>>>things move very slowly.
>>>>>
>>>>>Several of us are writing guidelines for implementing certain features
>>>>>but again, this is a slow process. Others are doing research. Going to
>>>>>conferences is awesome. Writing articles to Gamasutra is great as
>>>>>well.
>>>>>
>>>>>Eitan is right, we have to "sell" our expertise. It's not that
>>>>>developers don't care, they don't know that they SHOULD care.
>>>>>
>>>>>-Reid
>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>games_access mailing list
>>>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>--
>>>>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>>>>Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.11/1161 - Release 
>>>>>Date: 11/30/2007 12:12 PM
>>>>
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>games_access mailing list
>>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>games_access mailing list
>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>
>>>
>>>--
>>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 
>>>269.16.12/1163 - Release Date: 12/1/2007 12:05 PM
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>games_access mailing list
>>games_access at igda.org
>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access



From richard at audiogames.net  Sat Dec  1 13:57:49 2007
From: richard at audiogames.net (AudioGames.net)
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 19:57:49 +0100
Subject: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News
References: <006501c8312b$82902a60$6501a8c0@Inspiron><p0623090ac37223cd87e8@130.126.29.21><a6673b8d0711271244m7b678e79ye94e3a7688c020e2@mail.gmail.com><836db6300711300020r477e9abbldc4a6261effa5686@mail.gmail.com><008701c8337d$ac6de170$6501a8c0@Inspiron><p0623090fc3760c1b8d7d@130.126.29.21><30EC442C-11A9-416C-BE37-0540384E8C0A@pininteractive.com><000301c833bf$4c509a20$6501a8c0@Inspiron><3dd2060e0711302009g3635fb8eq5a12c64cb86a5972@mail.gmail.com><a6673b8d0711302326j60766890s4e63c3634b5f6bf5@mail.gmail.com><6.1.0.6.2.20071201103852.01d66f38@enigami.com><p0623091cc3774402a76e@[130.126.29.21]><6.1.0.6.2.20071201123300.01d9e6a0@enigami.com><p06230924c37756d7115a@[130.126.29.21]>
	<p06230927c3775b1910bd@[130.126.29.21]>
Message-ID: <00dd01c8344c$11594100$6402a8c0@Delletje>

:)

(also see the other email with a link to a more up to date document)

Also see: http://www.game-accessibility.com/index.php?pagefile=papers . This 
list (still?) contains all known work towards a unified definition of game 
accessibility and description of heuristics/guidelines/patterns/?

Greets,

Richard

(ps: although I think that one of Barrie's links is not in there....)




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "d. michelle hinn" <hinn at uiuc.edu>
To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 7:46 PM
Subject: Re: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News


> And the next place would be Richard's document. :)
>
>>Great!
>>
>>I think the first places to look are the places Barrie mentioned in his 
>>email -- synthesizing those efforts would go far as a first step.
>>
>>Most of the ideas that are suggested aren't all that formidable -- 
>>they just can't get done if no one does them. :)
>>
>>Michelle
>>
>>>Michelle,
>>>
>>>Well put.
>>>
>>>So OK. I volunteer to assemble, contribute to, and be responsible for 
>>>delivery of Item 1.
>>>
>>>This means:
>>>
>>>1. Getting from you good folks any work in progress you want to share, 
>>>synthesizing it into something that works, getting a quick review by 
>>>anyone here who is interested, and delivering a first cut of SIG Game 
>>>Accessibility Criteria.
>>>
>>>2. Getting from anyone here who wants to contribute, and contributing to, 
>>>a list of target developers, organizations, institutions, and 
>>>distributors we send this to, getting a quick review, and delivering a 
>>>first cut Distribution List.
>>>
>>>3. Writing a first draft cover letter /  promo piece, that is sent with 
>>>the Criteria, getting a quick review, and delivering this first cut Cover 
>>>Letter.
>>>
>>>All of the above sent to you, Michelle NLT 15 January, 2008.
>>>That way you get the volunteer work, you maintain control, and everyone 
>>>is included.
>>>
>>>BTW. This isn't nearly as formidable as developing coding standards for 
>>>the 50 engineers who did the software that laid out the NY Times, and 
>>>surviving the process.
>>>
>>>Does this work for you, Michelle?
>>>
>>>John Bannick
>>>
>>>At 12:24 PM 12/1/2007, you wrote:
>>>>All of the things John mentions are projects we have talked about and/or 
>>>>taken passes at (the top ten list from two years ago and now the new 
>>>>project that Barrie has started up, etc). Others have brought up other 
>>>>ideas that we've either done or attempted and then the projects lost 
>>>>momentum. All these things are great but there's a problem...these 
>>>>things also take active volunteers in the SIG and from that perspective 
>>>>our numbers are low. So we need people who are willing to put in the 
>>>>time and may/may not get any reimbursement for that time and every 
>>>>project cannot be started and maintained by me.
>>>>
>>>>So instead of continuing to criticize ourselves (I know...I started it 
>>>>but I was really mad after killing myself over the proposals at 
>>>>deadline), the industry, the GDC etc...who from WITHIN this SIG can put 
>>>>in the time needed for these things AND actually follow through? No, 
>>>>it's not fair that we aren't in a position to reimburse people for time 
>>>>and that won't change in the near future. But it's something that will 
>>>>have to change and it will change but we can't just wait for that day to 
>>>>come (because it won't come if we don't put in the sweat equity now). 
>>>>People need to honestly commit the time and work because they believe in 
>>>>making change. Take some of that anger and tell me what YOU are willing 
>>>>to do to help us make change. Take ownership of something on behalf of 
>>>>the SIG. Ideas are great...but we need people who will put in the work 
>>>>so that the "SIG" is able to do these things.
>>>>
>>>>So who will join in putting in some volunteer time so that these ideas 
>>>>can become reality?
>>>>
>>>>Michelle
>>>>
>>>>>Reid is right.
>>>>>
>>>>>There are developers right now who want their work to be accessible.
>>>>>
>>>>>This SIG could right now facilitate that by:
>>>>>
>>>>>1. Providing, distributing, and publicizing a concise, specific set of 
>>>>>functional criteria that define what means accessible.
>>>>>2. Compiling, publishing, and publicizing an annual list of which 
>>>>>companies and games meet those criteria.
>>>>>3. Maintaining a forum (The currently rather drifting Game 
>>>>>Accessibility Project comes to mind) where developers can go for 
>>>>>immediate help.
>>>>>
>>>>>I'm a developer of games that are accessible.
>>>>>Have shipped 22 different revenue-generating products in a wide variety 
>>>>>of vertical markets in the last 30 years.
>>>>>Am neither stupid nor lazy.
>>>>>And don't see any of the 3 above items.
>>>>>
>>>>>None of the 3 items should take long to build as a first cut.
>>>>>
>>>>>And if not from this SIG, then from where?
>>>>>
>>>>>John Bannick
>>>>>CTO
>>>>>7-128 Software
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>At 02:26 AM 12/1/2007, you wrote:
>>>>>>Please, can we stop with the negative talk about GDC and the game
>>>>>>industry? I work in the game industry for LucasArts. Just last week I
>>>>>>talked to a highly respected programmer and he's 100% behind us and
>>>>>>wants to talk about what we can do to improve accessibility in our
>>>>>>games after our current milestone is finished. There are dozens of
>>>>>>people at LucasArts that support game accessibility. Nintendo totally
>>>>>>gets it, EA Games totally gets it with their Family Play modes in
>>>>>>their sports games. Peter Molyneux gets it, Will Wright... the list
>>>>>>goes on and on.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>It's offensive to me when people of this SIG accuse developers of not
>>>>>>caring because WE DO CARE. The last thing you want to do is insult the
>>>>>>people you have to work with. It's the quickest way to turn them away
>>>>>>from our cause.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>So, instead of complaining, lets do something about it! First,
>>>>>>everyone here needs to understand what it's like for developers and
>>>>>>why it's so hard for them to adopt accessibility features.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>1. Limited financial resources - Games are very expensive to make and
>>>>>>any new features adds to the cost. Before you can add accessibility
>>>>>>features you must have a game and that's where most of the money is
>>>>>>spent first.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>2. Limited time - Game development is incredibly complex and hard to
>>>>>>tame. No matter how much extra time gets budgeted into the production
>>>>>>schedule, it always runs out well before all tasks are complete. When
>>>>>>this happens, features get cut in order to save the core of the game
>>>>>>and again, without a game, there can't be any accessibility features.
>>>>>>Because this usually happens so late, there isn't enough time to work
>>>>>>on accessibility features before the game has to ship.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>3. Limited information - Even if a developer was pro-active and
>>>>>>scheduled the development of accessibility features into the games'
>>>>>>development schedule, there's still a major lack of knowledge and
>>>>>>tools that enable them to do their job. The SIG has been thinking
>>>>>>about accessibility features for years and we have all the solutions,
>>>>>>but developers don't yet. We need to make ourselves known and readily
>>>>>>available to help them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>What can we do to solve these issues? We need to develop our
>>>>>>relationships with developers and offer our assistance. Our attempts
>>>>>>to work with GarageGames is a good start. When a new game is announced
>>>>>>we should contact them and offer our expertise.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>We have GOT to get a website up so that we can communicate our
>>>>>>abilities and expertise to our target audiences (game developers).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>But there are technical issues and many of us are volunteers and so
>>>>>>things move very slowly.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Several of us are writing guidelines for implementing certain features
>>>>>>but again, this is a slow process. Others are doing research. Going to
>>>>>>conferences is awesome. Writing articles to Gamasutra is great as
>>>>>>well.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Eitan is right, we have to "sell" our expertise. It's not that
>>>>>>developers don't care, they don't know that they SHOULD care.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>-Reid
>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>games_access mailing list
>>>>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>--
>>>>>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>>>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>>>>>Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.11/1161 - Release Date: 
>>>>>>11/30/2007 12:12 PM
>>>>>
>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>games_access mailing list
>>>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>>
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>games_access mailing list
>>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>--
>>>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 
>>>>269.16.12/1163 - Release Date: 12/1/2007 12:05 PM
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>games_access mailing list
>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>games_access mailing list
>>games_access at igda.org
>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access 



From ioo at ablegamers.com  Sat Dec  1 14:01:20 2007
From: ioo at ablegamers.com (Ioo)
Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2007 14:01:20 -0500
Subject: [games_access] FORUM (was Re:  GDC 2008: VERY Bad News)
In-Reply-To: <008901c83449$926eefe0$6402a8c0@Delletje>
References: <006501c8312b$82902a60$6501a8c0@Inspiron><p0623090ac37223cd87e8@130.126.29.21><a6673b8d0711271244m7b678e79ye94e3a7688c020e2@mail.gmail.com><836db6300711300020r477e9abbldc4a6261effa5686@mail.gmail.com><008701c8337d$ac6de170$6501a8c0@Inspiron><p0623090fc3760c1b8d7d@130.126.29.21><30EC442C-11A9-416C-BE37-0540384E8C0A@pininteractive.com><000301c833bf$4c509a20$6501a8c0@Inspiron><3dd2060e0711302009g3635fb8eq5a12c64cb86a5972@mail.gmail.com><a6673b8d0711302326j60766890s4e63c3634b5f6bf5@mail.gmail.com><6.1.0.6.2.20071201103852.01d66f38@enigami.com><053001c83439$da0092b0$0202a8c0@oneswitch>	<6.1.0.6.2.20071201125153.01db69b0@enigami.com>
	<008901c83449$926eefe0$6402a8c0@Delletje>
Message-ID: <4751AF80.2000402@ablegamers.com>

I use to own a website hosting company.

I have used my wholesale account and paid for the said domain.  I will 
also be more than happy to set up a full free standing forum and or 
blog... I would recommend something like Drupal...

I will even give you the space on my server (it is in Dallas), all you 
have to do is ask....

Now I did not mean to step on anyones toes here, but after reading this 
list for some time It is clear that there are idea folks and 
implementation folks... I will step up and be the second group.

Ping me if you want to help, ping me if you want to complain. Michelle, 
I will reach out to you and you can use me as your lacky to get this up 
and running.

Take care
Mark Barlet
Ioo - AbleGamers.com

AudioGames.net wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Just so you know: the GA forum was left unattended for some time but 
> the spam was removed as far as I could see. The forum is still pretty 
> popular, it's just that not that many SIG people attend it (because it 
> is not an "offical SIG" forum?).
>
> As I also said in the past: the Accessibility foundation is still 
> awaiting to be approached by the GA-SIG for collaborating on GA.com. I 
> already explained to a couple of you that with me and Sander having 
> left the foundation, most expertise left too. The foundation is 
> currently focusing on other projects and does not have the resources 
> to maintain this website at the moment. I already discussed a possible 
> collaboration with GA-SIG with my boss - EVEN to the extend of GA-SIG 
> ADOPTING GA.com and chaing it to a GA-SIG format - as if it was its 
> own - with Accessibility only sponsoring the website in the form of 
> hosting it. As far as I know, the foundation is still up for that. 
> However, IGDA politics intervened which resulted in that IGDA GA-SIG 
> still does not have a website to call their own. If GA-SIG does not 
> want to collaborate with GA.com then I would still suggest to buy 
> www.gasig.org and simply make a website under that for as long as IGDA 
> politics keep intervening.
>
> Greets,
>
> Richard
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Bannick" <jbannick at 7128.com>
> To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
> Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 7:20 PM
> Subject: Re: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News
>
>
>> Barrie,
>>
>> No. Not harsh. Just on point. (Programmers are not hired for their 
>> social skills.)
>>
>> 1. Yes.
>>
>> But this SIG is unique in that it is the one active place that covers 
>> multiple challenges, has an international audience, and clearly has 
>> the ears of some key industry players. If this SIG has its own 
>> concise, specific, answer to "what do you want us developers to do?" 
>> please point me to it.
>>
>> 2. Again, this SIG has a unique position in that it can credibly 
>> publish such a list, that address multiple challenges, 
>> internationally, and has the ear of the major developers. Is there 
>> any such recognized list of companies and games? Why not from this SIG?
>>
>> 3. Please.
>>
>> I'm on the Game Accessibility Project forum every day. It's getting 
>> spammed without intervention. It's much lower volume than such a fine 
>> effort warrants.  Richard says he's out of there. It's adrift.
>>
>> And Mark's forum is outstanding, but does not right now have the 
>> attention of the industry leaders, or actual developers, that this 
>> SIG does. (No criticism, he's doing a wonderful job.) I'm on Audyssey 
>> every day and it has a very active set of game developers that help 
>> each other all the time. But it's limited to the blind and VI folks.
>>
>> I'd not heard of the RetroRemakes forum (thanks for the tip) but 
>> according to its main page, it's most recent post was in August.
>>
>> Show me a forum where mainstream game developers meet to help each 
>> other make accessibility happen.
>>
>> The three proposals stand.
>>
>> John
>>
>> At 11:47 AM 12/1/2007, you wrote:
>>> A little harsh, John perhaps?
>>>
>>> 1. Has been covered to various degrees here:
>>>
>>> http://www.oneswitch.org.uk/2/ARTICLES/physical-barriers.htm
>>> http://www.ics.forth.gr/hci/ua-games/game-over/
>>> http://www.helpyouplay.com/welcome.html
>>>
>>> (and other places too).
>>>
>>> 2. Is is a good point. But there's so few mainstream developers 
>>> making deliberate accessibity efforts that take into account 
>>> specific disabilities. Here's a list of some:
>>>
>>> http://www.oneswitch.org.uk/2/pioneers.htm
>>> http://gameaccessibility.blogspot.com/
>>>
>>> 3. Forums here:
>>>
>>> http://www.game-accessibility.com/forum/
>>> http://www.retroremakes.com/forum2/forumdisplay.php?f=84
>>> http://ablegamers.com/component/option,com_fireboard/Itemid,606/
>>>
>>> We need the support of more people though!
>>>
>>> Barrie
>>> www.OneSwitch.org.uk
>>> www.igda.org/accessibility
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Bannick" <jbannick at 7128.com>
>>> To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
>>> Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 4:05 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News
>>>
>>>
>>>> Reid is right.
>>>>
>>>> There are developers right now who want their work to be accessible.
>>>>
>>>> This SIG could right now facilitate that by:
>>>>
>>>> 1. Providing, distributing, and publicizing a concise, specific set 
>>>> of functional criteria that define what means accessible.
>>>> 2. Compiling, publishing, and publicizing an annual list of which 
>>>> companies and games meet those criteria.
>>>> 3. Maintaining a forum (The currently rather drifting Game 
>>>> Accessibility Project comes to mind) where developers can go for 
>>>> immediate help.
>>>>
>>>> I'm a developer of games that are accessible.
>>>> Have shipped 22 different revenue-generating products in a wide 
>>>> variety of vertical markets in the last 30 years.
>>>> Am neither stupid nor lazy.
>>>> And don't see any of the 3 above items.
>>>>
>>>> None of the 3 items should take long to build as a first cut.
>>>>
>>>> And if not from this SIG, then from where?
>>>>
>>>> John Bannick
>>>> CTO
>>>> 7-128 Software
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> At 02:26 AM 12/1/2007, you wrote:
>>>>> Please, can we stop with the negative talk about GDC and the game
>>>>> industry? I work in the game industry for LucasArts. Just last week I
>>>>> talked to a highly respected programmer and he's 100% behind us and
>>>>> wants to talk about what we can do to improve accessibility in our
>>>>> games after our current milestone is finished. There are dozens of
>>>>> people at LucasArts that support game accessibility. Nintendo totally
>>>>> gets it, EA Games totally gets it with their Family Play modes in
>>>>> their sports games. Peter Molyneux gets it, Will Wright... the list
>>>>> goes on and on.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's offensive to me when people of this SIG accuse developers of not
>>>>> caring because WE DO CARE. The last thing you want to do is insult 
>>>>> the
>>>>> people you have to work with. It's the quickest way to turn them away
>>>>> from our cause.
>>>>>
>>>>> So, instead of complaining, lets do something about it! First,
>>>>> everyone here needs to understand what it's like for developers and
>>>>> why it's so hard for them to adopt accessibility features.
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. Limited financial resources - Games are very expensive to make and
>>>>> any new features adds to the cost. Before you can add accessibility
>>>>> features you must have a game and that's where most of the money is
>>>>> spent first.
>>>>>
>>>>> 2. Limited time - Game development is incredibly complex and hard to
>>>>> tame. No matter how much extra time gets budgeted into the production
>>>>> schedule, it always runs out well before all tasks are complete. When
>>>>> this happens, features get cut in order to save the core of the game
>>>>> and again, without a game, there can't be any accessibility features.
>>>>> Because this usually happens so late, there isn't enough time to work
>>>>> on accessibility features before the game has to ship.
>>>>>
>>>>> 3. Limited information - Even if a developer was pro-active and
>>>>> scheduled the development of accessibility features into the games'
>>>>> development schedule, there's still a major lack of knowledge and
>>>>> tools that enable them to do their job. The SIG has been thinking
>>>>> about accessibility features for years and we have all the solutions,
>>>>> but developers don't yet. We need to make ourselves known and readily
>>>>> available to help them.
>>>>>
>>>>> What can we do to solve these issues? We need to develop our
>>>>> relationships with developers and offer our assistance. Our attempts
>>>>> to work with GarageGames is a good start. When a new game is 
>>>>> announced
>>>>> we should contact them and offer our expertise.
>>>>>
>>>>> We have GOT to get a website up so that we can communicate our
>>>>> abilities and expertise to our target audiences (game developers).
>>>>>
>>>>> But there are technical issues and many of us are volunteers and so
>>>>> things move very slowly.
>>>>>
>>>>> Several of us are writing guidelines for implementing certain 
>>>>> features
>>>>> but again, this is a slow process. Others are doing research. 
>>>>> Going to
>>>>> conferences is awesome. Writing articles to Gamasutra is great as
>>>>> well.
>>>>>
>>>>> Eitan is right, we have to "sell" our expertise. It's not that
>>>>> developers don't care, they don't know that they SHOULD care.
>>>>>
>>>>> -Reid
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> games_access mailing list
>>>>> games_access at igda.org
>>>>> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>>>> Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.11/1161 - Release Date: 
>>>>> 11/30/2007 12:12 PM
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> games_access mailing list
>>>> games_access at igda.org
>>>> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> games_access mailing list
>>> games_access at igda.org
>>> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>> Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 
>>> 269.16.12/1163 - Release Date: 12/1/2007 12:05 PM
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> games_access mailing list
>> games_access at igda.org
>> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access 
>
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>


From jbannick at 7128.com  Sat Dec  1 14:05:08 2007
From: jbannick at 7128.com (John Bannick)
Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2007 14:05:08 -0500
Subject: [games_access] FORUM (was Re:  GDC 2008: VERY Bad News)
In-Reply-To: <008901c83449$926eefe0$6402a8c0@Delletje>
References: <006501c8312b$82902a60$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
	<p0623090ac37223cd87e8@130.126.29.21>
	<a6673b8d0711271244m7b678e79ye94e3a7688c020e2@mail.gmail.com>
	<836db6300711300020r477e9abbldc4a6261effa5686@mail.gmail.com>
	<008701c8337d$ac6de170$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
	<p0623090fc3760c1b8d7d@130.126.29.21>
	<30EC442C-11A9-416C-BE37-0540384E8C0A@pininteractive.com>
	<000301c833bf$4c509a20$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
	<3dd2060e0711302009g3635fb8eq5a12c64cb86a5972@mail.gmail.com>
	<a6673b8d0711302326j60766890s4e63c3634b5f6bf5@mail.gmail.com>
	<6.1.0.6.2.20071201103852.01d66f38@enigami.com>
	<053001c83439$da0092b0$0202a8c0@oneswitch>
	<6.1.0.6.2.20071201125153.01db69b0@enigami.com>
	<008901c83449$926eefe0$6402a8c0@Delletje>
Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.2.20071201135216.01e60818@enigami.com>

Richard,

Yep. You're right. The spam that was there for the past couple of weeks is 
gone. Someone did good.

But it's still not nearly as active as it warrants.

In the blind realm you see developer discussions of Audio Game Maker, some 
stuff that Ryan is doing, maybe a couple more developers, and a really good 
technical thread with Dark and Velu. What you don't see is an engineer from 
EA asking for help with a UI accessibility problem.

A reasonable objective would be to have any developer, at any company, who 
needs help or clarification on, say for example, blind / VI accessibility 
to think FIRST of the GA forum, or some SIG-affiliated site.

Don't know anything about the politics of all this. But it seems something 
that could be worked out by folks more knowledgeable.

jhb

At 01:39 PM 12/1/2007, you wrote:
>Hi,
>
>Just so you know: the GA forum was left unattended for some time but the 
>spam was removed as far as I could see. The forum is still pretty popular, 
>it's just that not that many SIG people attend it (because it is not an 
>"offical SIG" forum?).
>
>As I also said in the past: the Accessibility foundation is still awaiting 
>to be approached by the GA-SIG for collaborating on GA.com. I already 
>explained to a couple of you that with me and Sander having left the 
>foundation, most expertise left too. The foundation is currently focusing 
>on other projects and does not have the resources to maintain this website 
>at the moment. I already discussed a possible collaboration with GA-SIG 
>with my boss - EVEN to the extend of GA-SIG ADOPTING GA.com and chaing it 
>to a GA-SIG format - as if it was its own - with Accessibility only 
>sponsoring the website in the form of hosting it. As far as I know, the 
>foundation is still up for that. However, IGDA politics intervened which 
>resulted in that IGDA GA-SIG still does not have a website to call their 
>own. If GA-SIG does not want to collaborate with GA.com then I would still 
>suggest to buy www.gasig.org and simply make a website under that for as 
>long as IGDA politics keep intervening.
>
>Greets,
>
>Richard
>
>
>
>
>----- Original Message ----- From: "John Bannick" <jbannick at 7128.com>
>To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
>Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 7:20 PM
>Subject: Re: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News
>
>
>>Barrie,
>>
>>No. Not harsh. Just on point. (Programmers are not hired for their social 
>>skills.)
>>
>>1. Yes.
>>
>>But this SIG is unique in that it is the one active place that covers 
>>multiple challenges, has an international audience, and clearly has the 
>>ears of some key industry players. If this SIG has its own concise, 
>>specific, answer to "what do you want us developers to do?" please point 
>>me to it.
>>
>>2. Again, this SIG has a unique position in that it can credibly publish 
>>such a list, that address multiple challenges, internationally, and has 
>>the ear of the major developers. Is there any such recognized list of 
>>companies and games? Why not from this SIG?
>>
>>3. Please.
>>
>>I'm on the Game Accessibility Project forum every day. It's getting 
>>spammed without intervention. It's much lower volume than such a fine 
>>effort warrants.  Richard says he's out of there. It's adrift.
>>
>>And Mark's forum is outstanding, but does not right now have the 
>>attention of the industry leaders, or actual developers, that this SIG 
>>does. (No criticism, he's doing a wonderful job.) I'm on Audyssey every 
>>day and it has a very active set of game developers that help each other 
>>all the time. But it's limited to the blind and VI folks.
>>
>>I'd not heard of the RetroRemakes forum (thanks for the tip) but 
>>according to its main page, it's most recent post was in August.
>>
>>Show me a forum where mainstream game developers meet to help each other 
>>make accessibility happen.
>>
>>The three proposals stand.
>>
>>John
>>
>>At 11:47 AM 12/1/2007, you wrote:
>>>A little harsh, John perhaps?
>>>
>>>1. Has been covered to various degrees here:
>>>
>>>http://www.oneswitch.org.uk/2/ARTICLES/physical-barriers.htm
>>>http://www.ics.forth.gr/hci/ua-games/game-over/
>>>http://www.helpyouplay.com/welcome.html
>>>
>>>(and other places too).
>>>
>>>2. Is is a good point. But there's so few mainstream developers making 
>>>deliberate accessibity efforts that take into account specific 
>>>disabilities. Here's a list of some:
>>>
>>>http://www.oneswitch.org.uk/2/pioneers.htm
>>>http://gameaccessibility.blogspot.com/
>>>
>>>3. Forums here:
>>>
>>>http://www.game-accessibility.com/forum/
>>>http://www.retroremakes.com/forum2/forumdisplay.php?f=84
>>>http://ablegamers.com/component/option,com_fireboard/Itemid,606/
>>>
>>>We need the support of more people though!
>>>
>>>Barrie
>>>www.OneSwitch.org.uk
>>>www.igda.org/accessibility
>>>
>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "John Bannick" <jbannick at 7128.com>
>>>To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
>>>Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 4:05 PM
>>>Subject: Re: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News
>>>
>>>
>>>>Reid is right.
>>>>
>>>>There are developers right now who want their work to be accessible.
>>>>
>>>>This SIG could right now facilitate that by:
>>>>
>>>>1. Providing, distributing, and publicizing a concise, specific set of 
>>>>functional criteria that define what means accessible.
>>>>2. Compiling, publishing, and publicizing an annual list of which 
>>>>companies and games meet those criteria.
>>>>3. Maintaining a forum (The currently rather drifting Game 
>>>>Accessibility Project comes to mind) where developers can go for 
>>>>immediate help.
>>>>
>>>>I'm a developer of games that are accessible.
>>>>Have shipped 22 different revenue-generating products in a wide variety 
>>>>of vertical markets in the last 30 years.
>>>>Am neither stupid nor lazy.
>>>>And don't see any of the 3 above items.
>>>>
>>>>None of the 3 items should take long to build as a first cut.
>>>>
>>>>And if not from this SIG, then from where?
>>>>
>>>>John Bannick
>>>>CTO
>>>>7-128 Software
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>At 02:26 AM 12/1/2007, you wrote:
>>>>>Please, can we stop with the negative talk about GDC and the game
>>>>>industry? I work in the game industry for LucasArts. Just last week I
>>>>>talked to a highly respected programmer and he's 100% behind us and
>>>>>wants to talk about what we can do to improve accessibility in our
>>>>>games after our current milestone is finished. There are dozens of
>>>>>people at LucasArts that support game accessibility. Nintendo totally
>>>>>gets it, EA Games totally gets it with their Family Play modes in
>>>>>their sports games. Peter Molyneux gets it, Will Wright... the list
>>>>>goes on and on.
>>>>>
>>>>>It's offensive to me when people of this SIG accuse developers of not
>>>>>caring because WE DO CARE. The last thing you want to do is insult the
>>>>>people you have to work with. It's the quickest way to turn them away
>>>>>from our cause.
>>>>>
>>>>>So, instead of complaining, lets do something about it! First,
>>>>>everyone here needs to understand what it's like for developers and
>>>>>why it's so hard for them to adopt accessibility features.
>>>>>
>>>>>1. Limited financial resources - Games are very expensive to make and
>>>>>any new features adds to the cost. Before you can add accessibility
>>>>>features you must have a game and that's where most of the money is
>>>>>spent first.
>>>>>
>>>>>2. Limited time - Game development is incredibly complex and hard to
>>>>>tame. No matter how much extra time gets budgeted into the production
>>>>>schedule, it always runs out well before all tasks are complete. When
>>>>>this happens, features get cut in order to save the core of the game
>>>>>and again, without a game, there can't be any accessibility features.
>>>>>Because this usually happens so late, there isn't enough time to work
>>>>>on accessibility features before the game has to ship.
>>>>>
>>>>>3. Limited information - Even if a developer was pro-active and
>>>>>scheduled the development of accessibility features into the games'
>>>>>development schedule, there's still a major lack of knowledge and
>>>>>tools that enable them to do their job. The SIG has been thinking
>>>>>about accessibility features for years and we have all the solutions,
>>>>>but developers don't yet. We need to make ourselves known and readily
>>>>>available to help them.
>>>>>
>>>>>What can we do to solve these issues? We need to develop our
>>>>>relationships with developers and offer our assistance. Our attempts
>>>>>to work with GarageGames is a good start. When a new game is announced
>>>>>we should contact them and offer our expertise.
>>>>>
>>>>>We have GOT to get a website up so that we can communicate our
>>>>>abilities and expertise to our target audiences (game developers).
>>>>>
>>>>>But there are technical issues and many of us are volunteers and so
>>>>>things move very slowly.
>>>>>
>>>>>Several of us are writing guidelines for implementing certain features
>>>>>but again, this is a slow process. Others are doing research. Going to
>>>>>conferences is awesome. Writing articles to Gamasutra is great as
>>>>>well.
>>>>>
>>>>>Eitan is right, we have to "sell" our expertise. It's not that
>>>>>developers don't care, they don't know that they SHOULD care.
>>>>>
>>>>>-Reid
>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>games_access mailing list
>>>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>--
>>>>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>>>>Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.11/1161 - Release Date: 
>>>>>11/30/2007 12:12 PM
>>>>
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>games_access mailing list
>>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>games_access mailing list
>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>
>>>
>>>--
>>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 
>>>269.16.12/1163 - Release Date: 12/1/2007 12:05 PM
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>games_access mailing list
>>games_access at igda.org
>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>
>--
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 
>269.16.12/1163 - Release Date: 12/1/2007 12:05 PM



From hinn at uiuc.edu  Sat Dec  1 14:09:31 2007
From: hinn at uiuc.edu (d. michelle hinn)
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 13:09:31 -0600
Subject: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News
In-Reply-To: <006d01c83446$b212f100$6402a8c0@Delletje>
References: <006501c8312b$82902a60$6501a8c0@Inspiron><p0623090ac37223cd87e8@130.126.29
	.21><a6673b8d0711271244m7b678e79ye94e3a7688c020e2@mail.gmail.com><836db630
	0711300020r477e9abbldc4a6261effa5686@mail.gmail.com><008701c8337d$ac6de170
	$6501a8c0@Inspiron><p0623090fc3760c1b8d7d@130.126.29.21><30EC442C-11A9-416
	C-BE37-0540384E8C0A@pininteractive.com><000301c833bf$4c509a20$6501a8c0@Ins
	piron><3dd2060e0711302009g3635fb8eq5a12c64cb86a5972@mail.gmail.com><a6673b
	8d0711302326j60766890s4e63c3634b5f6bf5@mail.gmail.com><6.1.0.6.2.200712011
	03852.01d66f38@enigami.com><p0623091cc3774402a76e@[130.126.29.21]><6.1.0.6
	.2.20071201123300.01d9e6a0@enigami.com>
	<005001c83446$5fccee00$6402a8c0@Delletje>
	<006d01c83446$b212f100$6402a8c0@Delletje>
Message-ID: <p06230928c3775cd979b5@[130.126.29.21]>

I agree it's needed -- volunteer time AND persistence is also needed 
to get something out there. I, too, am frustrated -- so that is why 
I'm pushing against the list right now. You say that you have been 
pushing the document by yourself -- unfortunately most of the things 
that get done happen because it's one single person pushing it 
through to the bitter end. I speak from experience -- I'm in this 
position all the time, as are others. Hell, there are a million 
things I want us to do simultaneously but it's just not possible 
given the current state of sweat equity (my phrase of the day) in the 
SIG. So things get unbalanced with regard to priorities because 
persistence just isn't there for every project so other things (ie, 
conference) gain the focus.

Michelle

>(I was referring to my email sent earlier to this list, which didn't 
>seem to have come through?!?)... here it is again:
>
>Hi,
>
>I agree with John. I think too much focus of the SIG (at least the past year
>and a half or so) has been on "spreading the word" and not so much on
>defining "game accessibility fundamentals". I guess most of you are also
>aware of this and I agree that spreading the word is important too. But I
>think it is about time we finish A (or The) Definitive v1.0 Set of Game
>Accessibility Design Guidelines/Principles/Heuristics/Patterns! Once and for
>all. Several people here are very anxious about getting logos (yes, I know -
>logos for very specific functionalities[1]) as soon as possible and stuff
>like that but WITHOUT a good definition of accessibility it doesn't mean
>anything. BTW John, I'm not saying you are stupid but... (grin)... you claim
>to develop game that "are accessible" yet you yourself do not know a
>"specific set of functional criteria that define what means accessible"...
>;) (just a joke ;) > but it is actually an example of the problem > I know
>some of us have been saying "this game is accessible" or "this feature is
>accessible" in the past but is it really...? For example, many of the games
>and features that Barrie often names as "being accessible" absolutely do not
>improve the accessibility for my personal target group (visually impaired
>gamers). But when you visit the links that Barrie posted in answer of John's
>email you'll see that they DO NOT provide coherent information of design
>guidelines/heuristics for game accessibility, nor a final
>definition/description of what game accessibility should consist of. There
>is a lot of information out there, including old and also invalid
>information [2] in my opinion but it does not cover what needs to be done to
>make games accessible. For example, Eelke's (pretty good!) design patterns
>are a formal way of describing specific design problems and their solutions,
>but not everything concerning game accessibility might be able to be
>captured in the format of patterns [3]. My point: there is alot of
>information out there that is not coherent and not all information is there.
>And therefore agree with John that if it's not the SIG's job to fix this
>issue, whose job is it?
>
>John's email reminded me that that was what initially draw me to this SIG in
>the first place (being busy with game accessibility myself and disagreeing
>with the initial SIG Top 10 guidelines and hopeing to contribute to a better
>definition and design guidelines) and now painfully lets me conclude that
>here I am, still working on my initial draft [4] more or less by myself (see
>my GDC08 proposal and 3 years of posts to the list concerning guidelines).
>John's email also made me realise how little the SIG has published. I know
>several of us have written articles, but as far as I know - if you don't
>count the SIG activity at conferences, the last actual SIG publication was
>2005?
>
>Sigh... ok.. point of this email: I believe we are all doing the best we
>can, with limited resources and busy lives. And we all want to do as much as
>possible. Several of us have already aimed their actual careers at that. And
>we already scheduled several committees for specific activities such as
>research and industry and stuff like that. So cheers and drinks for us :)
>And the active <10 of us can't do more than we can. But, logically, one of
>the best next steps we can now do is to make a worldwide publication with a
>definitive set of descriptions of game accessibility functionality, with
>design guidelines and where possible, design patterns. And since The Book
>will not coming for another couple of years or so I think a simple .pdf
>paper with the IGDA logo will do.
>Too much of the SIG's knowledge is floating in the air (or in the heads of
><10 individuals around the world). Why try to only ventilate that knowledge
>at conferences? If we put that knowledge in a fixed form it will help with
>BOTH awareness and more accessible games. I also the SIG benefits from
>that - it will help ourselves get our personal thoughts out and get in line
>with each other - something I think we now are not. Therefore I think that
>such a publication is now much more needed than anything else.
>
>Greets,
>
>Richard
>
>
>[1] like " contains captions" , "one switch accessible", etc. etc. which in
>the end could mean about 39? logo's on your product - which is not very
>accessible?
>[2] http://gameaccess.medialt.no/guide.php
>[3] I prefer a hierarchical list of keypoints > guidelines > patterns - a
>bit like seen in my doc [4].
>[4] http://www2.hku.nl/~mosh/ga/gatheoryshort012_2OLD.doc
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>----- Original Message ----- From: "AudioGames.net" <richard at audiogames.net>
>To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
>Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 7:17 PM
>Subject: Re: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News
>
>>Hi,
>>
>>Well, me? > 1) See my doc, which I think is the best attempt to 
>>capture game accessibility so far. I anyone disagrees PLEASE :) 
>>tell me... :)
>>
>>Greets,
>>
>>Richard
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message ----- From: "John Bannick" <jbannick at 7128.com>
>>To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
>>Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 6:51 PM
>>Subject: Re: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News
>>
>>>Michelle,
>>>
>>>Well put.
>>>
>>>So OK. I volunteer to assemble, contribute to, and be responsible 
>>>for delivery of Item 1.
>>>
>>>This means:
>>>
>>>1. Getting from you good folks any work in progress you want to 
>>>share, synthesizing it into something that works, getting a quick 
>>>review by anyone here who is interested, and delivering a first 
>>>cut of SIG Game Accessibility Criteria.
>>>
>>>2. Getting from anyone here who wants to contribute, and 
>>>contributing to, a list of target developers, organizations, 
>>>institutions, and distributors we send this to, getting a quick 
>>>review, and delivering a first cut Distribution List.
>>>
>>>3. Writing a first draft cover letter /  promo piece, that is sent 
>>>with the Criteria, getting a quick review, and delivering this 
>>>first cut Cover Letter.
>>>
>>>All of the above sent to you, Michelle NLT 15 January, 2008.
>>>That way you get the volunteer work, you maintain control, and 
>>>everyone is included.
>>>
>>>BTW. This isn't nearly as formidable as developing coding 
>>>standards for the 50 engineers who did the software that laid out 
>>>the NY Times, and surviving the process.
>>>
>>>Does this work for you, Michelle?
>>>
>>>John Bannick
>>>
>>>At 12:24 PM 12/1/2007, you wrote:
>>>>All of the things John mentions are projects we have talked about 
>>>>and/or taken passes at (the top ten list from two years ago and 
>>>>now the new project that Barrie has started up, etc). Others have 
>>>>brought up other ideas that we've either done or attempted and 
>>>>then the projects lost momentum. All these things are great but 
>>>>there's a problem...these things also take active volunteers in 
>>>>the SIG and from that perspective our numbers are low. So we need 
>>>>people who are willing to put in the time and may/may not get any 
>>>>reimbursement for that time and every project cannot be started 
>>>>and maintained by me.
>>>>
>>>>So instead of continuing to criticize ourselves (I know...I 
>>>>started it but I was really mad after killing myself over the 
>>>>proposals at deadline), the industry, the GDC etc...who from 
>>>>WITHIN this SIG can put in the time needed for these things AND 
>>>>actually follow through? No, it's not fair that we aren't in a 
>>>>position to reimburse people for time and that won't change in 
>>>>the near future. But it's something that will have to change and 
>>>>it will change but we can't just wait for that day to come 
>>>>(because it won't come if we don't put in the sweat equity now). 
>>>>People need to honestly commit the time and work because they 
>>>>believe in making change. Take some of that anger and tell me 
>>>>what YOU are willing to do to help us make change. Take ownership 
>>>>of something on behalf of the SIG. Ideas are great...but we need 
>>>>people who will put in the work so that the "SIG" is able to do 
>>>>these things.
>>>>
>>>>So who will join in putting in some volunteer time so that these 
>>>>ideas can become reality?
>>>>
>>>>Michelle
>>>>
>>>>>Reid is right.
>>>>>
>>>>>There are developers right now who want their work to be accessible.
>>>>>
>>>>>This SIG could right now facilitate that by:
>>>>>
>>>>>1. Providing, distributing, and publicizing a concise, specific 
>>>>>set of functional criteria that define what means accessible.
>>>>>2. Compiling, publishing, and publicizing an annual list of 
>>>>>which companies and games meet those criteria.
>>>>>3. Maintaining a forum (The currently rather drifting Game 
>>>>>Accessibility Project comes to mind) where developers can go for 
>>>>>immediate help.
>>>>>
>>>>>I'm a developer of games that are accessible.
>>>>>Have shipped 22 different revenue-generating products in a wide 
>>>>>variety of vertical markets in the last 30 years.
>>>>>Am neither stupid nor lazy.
>>>>>And don't see any of the 3 above items.
>>>>>
>>>>>None of the 3 items should take long to build as a first cut.
>>>>>
>>>>>And if not from this SIG, then from where?
>>>>>
>>>>>John Bannick
>>>>>CTO
>>>>>7-128 Software
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>At 02:26 AM 12/1/2007, you wrote:
>>>>>>Please, can we stop with the negative talk about GDC and the game
>>>>>>industry? I work in the game industry for LucasArts. Just last week I
>>>>>>talked to a highly respected programmer and he's 100% behind us and
>>>>>>wants to talk about what we can do to improve accessibility in our
>>>>>>games after our current milestone is finished. There are dozens of
>>>>>>people at LucasArts that support game accessibility. Nintendo totally
>>>>>>gets it, EA Games totally gets it with their Family Play modes in
>>>>>>their sports games. Peter Molyneux gets it, Will Wright... the list
>>>>>>goes on and on.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>It's offensive to me when people of this SIG accuse developers of not
>>>>>>caring because WE DO CARE. The last thing you want to do is insult the
>>>>>>people you have to work with. It's the quickest way to turn them away
>>>>>>from our cause.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>So, instead of complaining, lets do something about it! First,
>>>>>>everyone here needs to understand what it's like for developers and
>>>>>>why it's so hard for them to adopt accessibility features.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>1. Limited financial resources - Games are very expensive to make and
>>>>>>any new features adds to the cost. Before you can add accessibility
>>>>>>features you must have a game and that's where most of the money is
>>>>>>spent first.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>2. Limited time - Game development is incredibly complex and hard to
>>>>>>tame. No matter how much extra time gets budgeted into the production
>>>>>>schedule, it always runs out well before all tasks are complete. When
>>>>>>this happens, features get cut in order to save the core of the game
>>>>>>and again, without a game, there can't be any accessibility features.
>>>>>>Because this usually happens so late, there isn't enough time to work
>>>>>>on accessibility features before the game has to ship.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>3. Limited information - Even if a developer was pro-active and
>>>>>>scheduled the development of accessibility features into the games'
>>>>>>development schedule, there's still a major lack of knowledge and
>>>>>>tools that enable them to do their job. The SIG has been thinking
>>>>>>about accessibility features for years and we have all the solutions,
>>>>>>but developers don't yet. We need to make ourselves known and readily
>>>>>>available to help them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>What can we do to solve these issues? We need to develop our
>>>>>>relationships with developers and offer our assistance. Our attempts
>>>>>>to work with GarageGames is a good start. When a new game is announced
>>>>>>we should contact them and offer our expertise.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>We have GOT to get a website up so that we can communicate our
>>>>>>abilities and expertise to our target audiences (game developers).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>But there are technical issues and many of us are volunteers and so
>>>>>>things move very slowly.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Several of us are writing guidelines for implementing certain features
>>>>>>but again, this is a slow process. Others are doing research. Going to
>>>>>>conferences is awesome. Writing articles to Gamasutra is great as
>>>>>>well.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Eitan is right, we have to "sell" our expertise. It's not that
>>>>>>developers don't care, they don't know that they SHOULD care.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>-Reid
>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>games_access mailing list
>>>>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>--
>>>>>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>>>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>>>>>Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.11/1161 - Release 
>>>>>>Date: 11/30/2007 12:12 PM
>>>>>
>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>games_access mailing list
>>>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>>
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>games_access mailing list
>>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>--
>>>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 
>>>>269.16.12/1163 - Release Date: 12/1/2007 12:05 PM
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>games_access mailing list
>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>games_access mailing list
>>games_access at igda.org
>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access



From hinn at uiuc.edu  Sat Dec  1 14:16:21 2007
From: hinn at uiuc.edu (d. michelle hinn)
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 13:16:21 -0600
Subject: [games_access] FORUM (was Re:  GDC 2008: VERY Bad News)
In-Reply-To: <008901c83449$926eefe0$6402a8c0@Delletje>
References: <006501c8312b$82902a60$6501a8c0@Inspiron><p0623090ac37223cd87e8@130.126.29
	.21><a6673b8d0711271244m7b678e79ye94e3a7688c020e2@mail.gmail.com><836db630
	0711300020r477e9abbldc4a6261effa5686@mail.gmail.com><008701c8337d$ac6de170
	$6501a8c0@Inspiron><p0623090fc3760c1b8d7d@130.126.29.21><30EC442C-11A9-416
	C-BE37-0540384E8C0A@pininteractive.com><000301c833bf$4c509a20$6501a8c0@Ins
	piron><3dd2060e0711302009g3635fb8eq5a12c64cb86a5972@mail.gmail.com><a6673b
	8d0711302326j60766890s4e63c3634b5f6bf5@mail.gmail.com><6.1.0.6.2.200712011
	03852.01d66f38@enigami.com><053001c83439$da0092b0$0202a8c0@oneswitch>
	<6.1.0.6.2.20071201125153.01db69b0@enigami.com>
	<008901c83449$926eefe0$6402a8c0@Delletje>
Message-ID: <p06230929c377621cb577@[130.126.29.21]>

Well, it seems that the IGDA web initiative is pretty dead at the 
moment so there's no reason why we can't adopt the site. Can you help 
us/me get in touch with the foundation again so that we can work this 
out and get our web presence seriously back on track?

Remember -- you've also had to take some time off from working with 
the SIG (I know...I have a PhD to finish too but I'm not in as nice a 
situation) so please remember that when you criticize about action 
not being taken on this and that. Cool?

Michelle

>Hi,
>
>Just so you know: the GA forum was left unattended for some time but 
>the spam was removed as far as I could see. The forum is still 
>pretty popular, it's just that not that many SIG people attend it 
>(because it is not an "offical SIG" forum?).
>
>As I also said in the past: the Accessibility foundation is still 
>awaiting to be approached by the GA-SIG for collaborating on GA.com. 
>I already explained to a couple of you that with me and Sander 
>having left the foundation, most expertise left too. The foundation 
>is currently focusing on other projects and does not have the 
>resources to maintain this website at the moment. I already 
>discussed a possible collaboration with GA-SIG with my boss - EVEN 
>to the extend of GA-SIG ADOPTING GA.com and chaing it to a GA-SIG 
>format - as if it was its own - with Accessibility only sponsoring 
>the website in the form of hosting it. As far as I know, the 
>foundation is still up for that. However, IGDA politics intervened 
>which resulted in that IGDA GA-SIG still does not have a website to 
>call their own. If GA-SIG does not want to collaborate with GA.com 
>then I would still suggest to buy www.gasig.org and simply make a 
>website under that for as long as IGDA politics keep intervening.
>
>Greets,
>
>Richard
>
>
>
>
>----- Original Message ----- From: "John Bannick" <jbannick at 7128.com>
>To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
>Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 7:20 PM
>Subject: Re: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News
>
>>Barrie,
>>
>>No. Not harsh. Just on point. (Programmers are not hired for their 
>>social skills.)
>>
>>1. Yes.
>>
>>But this SIG is unique in that it is the one active place that 
>>covers multiple challenges, has an international audience, and 
>>clearly has the ears of some key industry players. If this SIG has 
>>its own concise, specific, answer to "what do you want us 
>>developers to do?" please point me to it.
>>
>>2. Again, this SIG has a unique position in that it can credibly 
>>publish such a list, that address multiple challenges, 
>>internationally, and has the ear of the major developers. Is there 
>>any such recognized list of companies and games? Why not from this 
>>SIG?
>>
>>3. Please.
>>
>>I'm on the Game Accessibility Project forum every day. It's getting 
>>spammed without intervention. It's much lower volume than such a 
>>fine effort warrants.  Richard says he's out of there. It's adrift.
>>
>>And Mark's forum is outstanding, but does not right now have the 
>>attention of the industry leaders, or actual developers, that this 
>>SIG does. (No criticism, he's doing a wonderful job.) I'm on 
>>Audyssey every day and it has a very active set of game developers 
>>that help each other all the time. But it's limited to the blind 
>>and VI folks.
>>
>>I'd not heard of the RetroRemakes forum (thanks for the tip) but 
>>according to its main page, it's most recent post was in August.
>>
>>Show me a forum where mainstream game developers meet to help each 
>>other make accessibility happen.
>>
>>The three proposals stand.
>>
>>John
>>
>>At 11:47 AM 12/1/2007, you wrote:
>>>A little harsh, John perhaps?
>>>
>>>1. Has been covered to various degrees here:
>>>
>>>http://www.oneswitch.org.uk/2/ARTICLES/physical-barriers.htm
>>>http://www.ics.forth.gr/hci/ua-games/game-over/
>>>http://www.helpyouplay.com/welcome.html
>>>
>>>(and other places too).
>>>
>>>2. Is is a good point. But there's so few mainstream developers 
>>>making deliberate accessibity efforts that take into account 
>>>specific disabilities. Here's a list of some:
>>>
>>>http://www.oneswitch.org.uk/2/pioneers.htm
>>>http://gameaccessibility.blogspot.com/
>>>
>>>3. Forums here:
>>>
>>>http://www.game-accessibility.com/forum/
>>>http://www.retroremakes.com/forum2/forumdisplay.php?f=84
>>>http://ablegamers.com/component/option,com_fireboard/Itemid,606/
>>>
>>>We need the support of more people though!
>>>
>>>Barrie
>>>www.OneSwitch.org.uk
>>>www.igda.org/accessibility
>>>
>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "John Bannick" <jbannick at 7128.com>
>>>To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
>>>Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 4:05 PM
>>>Subject: Re: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News
>>>
>>>>Reid is right.
>>>>
>>>>There are developers right now who want their work to be accessible.
>>>>
>>>>This SIG could right now facilitate that by:
>>>>
>>>>1. Providing, distributing, and publicizing a concise, specific 
>>>>set of functional criteria that define what means accessible.
>>>>2. Compiling, publishing, and publicizing an annual list of which 
>>>>companies and games meet those criteria.
>>>>3. Maintaining a forum (The currently rather drifting Game 
>>>>Accessibility Project comes to mind) where developers can go for 
>>>>immediate help.
>>>>
>>>>I'm a developer of games that are accessible.
>>>>Have shipped 22 different revenue-generating products in a wide 
>>>>variety of vertical markets in the last 30 years.
>>>>Am neither stupid nor lazy.
>>>>And don't see any of the 3 above items.
>>>>
>>>>None of the 3 items should take long to build as a first cut.
>>>>
>>>>And if not from this SIG, then from where?
>>>>
>>>>John Bannick
>>>>CTO
>>>>7-128 Software
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>At 02:26 AM 12/1/2007, you wrote:
>>>>>Please, can we stop with the negative talk about GDC and the game
>>>>>industry? I work in the game industry for LucasArts. Just last week I
>>>>>talked to a highly respected programmer and he's 100% behind us and
>>>>>wants to talk about what we can do to improve accessibility in our
>>>>>games after our current milestone is finished. There are dozens of
>>>>>people at LucasArts that support game accessibility. Nintendo totally
>>>>>gets it, EA Games totally gets it with their Family Play modes in
>>>>>their sports games. Peter Molyneux gets it, Will Wright... the list
>>>>>goes on and on.
>>>>>
>>>>>It's offensive to me when people of this SIG accuse developers of not
>>>>>caring because WE DO CARE. The last thing you want to do is insult the
>>>>>people you have to work with. It's the quickest way to turn them away
>>>>>from our cause.
>>>>>
>>>>>So, instead of complaining, lets do something about it! First,
>>>>>everyone here needs to understand what it's like for developers and
>>>>>why it's so hard for them to adopt accessibility features.
>>>>>
>>>>>1. Limited financial resources - Games are very expensive to make and
>>>>>any new features adds to the cost. Before you can add accessibility
>>>>>features you must have a game and that's where most of the money is
>>>>>spent first.
>>>>>
>>>>>2. Limited time - Game development is incredibly complex and hard to
>>>>>tame. No matter how much extra time gets budgeted into the production
>>>>>schedule, it always runs out well before all tasks are complete. When
>>>>>this happens, features get cut in order to save the core of the game
>>>>>and again, without a game, there can't be any accessibility features.
>>>>>Because this usually happens so late, there isn't enough time to work
>>>>>on accessibility features before the game has to ship.
>>>>>
>>>>>3. Limited information - Even if a developer was pro-active and
>>>>>scheduled the development of accessibility features into the games'
>>>>>development schedule, there's still a major lack of knowledge and
>>>>>tools that enable them to do their job. The SIG has been thinking
>>>>>about accessibility features for years and we have all the solutions,
>>>>>but developers don't yet. We need to make ourselves known and readily
>>>>>available to help them.
>>>>>
>>>>>What can we do to solve these issues? We need to develop our
>>>>>relationships with developers and offer our assistance. Our attempts
>>>>>to work with GarageGames is a good start. When a new game is announced
>>>>>we should contact them and offer our expertise.
>>>>>
>>>>>We have GOT to get a website up so that we can communicate our
>>>>>abilities and expertise to our target audiences (game developers).
>>>>>
>>>>>But there are technical issues and many of us are volunteers and so
>>>>>things move very slowly.
>>>>>
>>>>>Several of us are writing guidelines for implementing certain features
>>>>>but again, this is a slow process. Others are doing research. Going to
>>>>>conferences is awesome. Writing articles to Gamasutra is great as
>>>>>well.
>>>>>
>>>>>Eitan is right, we have to "sell" our expertise. It's not that
>>>>>developers don't care, they don't know that they SHOULD care.
>>>>>
>>>>>-Reid
>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>games_access mailing list
>>>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>--
>>>>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>>>>Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.11/1161 - Release 
>>>>>Date: 11/30/2007 12:12 PM
>>>>
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>games_access mailing list
>>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>games_access mailing list
>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>
>>>
>>>--
>>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 
>>>269.16.12/1163 - Release Date: 12/1/2007 12:05 PM
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>games_access mailing list
>>games_access at igda.org
>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access



From richard at audiogames.net  Sat Dec  1 14:32:01 2007
From: richard at audiogames.net (AudioGames.net)
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 20:32:01 +0100
Subject: [games_access] FORUM (was Re:  GDC 2008: VERY Bad News)
References: <006501c8312b$82902a60$6501a8c0@Inspiron><p0623090ac37223cd87e8@130.126.29.21><a6673b8d0711271244m7b678e79ye94e3a7688c020e2@mail.gmail.com><836db6300711300020r477e9abbldc4a6261effa5686@mail.gmail.com><008701c8337d$ac6de170$6501a8c0@Inspiron><p0623090fc3760c1b8d7d@130.126.29.21><30EC442C-11A9-416C-BE37-0540384E8C0A@pininteractive.com><000301c833bf$4c509a20$6501a8c0@Inspiron><3dd2060e0711302009g3635fb8eq5a12c64cb86a5972@mail.gmail.com><a6673b8d0711302326j60766890s4e63c3634b5f6bf5@mail.gmail.com><6.1.0.6.2.20071201103852.01d66f38@enigami.com><053001c83439$da0092b0$0202a8c0@oneswitch><6.1.0.6.2.20071201125153.01db69b0@enigami.com><008901c83449$926eefe0$6402a8c0@Delletje>
	<p06230929c377621cb577@[130.126.29.21]>
Message-ID: <013d01c83450$d8803cd0$6402a8c0@Delletje>

I was not ciriticizing you so don't you don't feel criticized by me ;) I 
don't even know if everyone agrees to that plan anyway...? Do you? It's is 
just ONE option...

Yes, I can help you.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "d. michelle hinn" <hinn at uiuc.edu>
To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 8:16 PM
Subject: Re: [games_access] FORUM (was Re: GDC 2008: VERY Bad News)


> Well, it seems that the IGDA web initiative is pretty dead at the moment 
> so there's no reason why we can't adopt the site. Can you help us/me get 
> in touch with the foundation again so that we can work this out and get 
> our web presence seriously back on track?
>
> Remember -- you've also had to take some time off from working with the 
> SIG (I know...I have a PhD to finish too but I'm not in as nice a 
> situation) so please remember that when you criticize about action not 
> being taken on this and that. Cool?
>
> Michelle
>
>>Hi,
>>
>>Just so you know: the GA forum was left unattended for some time but the 
>>spam was removed as far as I could see. The forum is still pretty popular, 
>>it's just that not that many SIG people attend it (because it is not an 
>>"offical SIG" forum?).
>>
>>As I also said in the past: the Accessibility foundation is still awaiting 
>>to be approached by the GA-SIG for collaborating on GA.com. I already 
>>explained to a couple of you that with me and Sander having left the 
>>foundation, most expertise left too. The foundation is currently focusing 
>>on other projects and does not have the resources to maintain this website 
>>at the moment. I already discussed a possible collaboration with GA-SIG 
>>with my boss - EVEN to the extend of GA-SIG ADOPTING GA.com and chaing it 
>>to a GA-SIG format - as if it was its own - with Accessibility only 
>>sponsoring the website in the form of hosting it. As far as I know, the 
>>foundation is still up for that. However, IGDA politics intervened which 
>>resulted in that IGDA GA-SIG still does not have a website to call their 
>>own. If GA-SIG does not want to collaborate with GA.com then I would still 
>>suggest to buy www.gasig.org and simply make a website under that for as 
>>long as IGDA politics keep intervening.
>>
>>Greets,
>>
>>Richard
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message ----- From: "John Bannick" <jbannick at 7128.com>
>>To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
>>Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 7:20 PM
>>Subject: Re: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News
>>
>>>Barrie,
>>>
>>>No. Not harsh. Just on point. (Programmers are not hired for their social 
>>>skills.)
>>>
>>>1. Yes.
>>>
>>>But this SIG is unique in that it is the one active place that covers 
>>>multiple challenges, has an international audience, and clearly has the 
>>>ears of some key industry players. If this SIG has its own concise, 
>>>specific, answer to "what do you want us developers to do?" please point 
>>>me to it.
>>>
>>>2. Again, this SIG has a unique position in that it can credibly publish 
>>>such a list, that address multiple challenges, internationally, and has 
>>>the ear of the major developers. Is there any such recognized list of 
>>>companies and games? Why not from this SIG?
>>>
>>>3. Please.
>>>
>>>I'm on the Game Accessibility Project forum every day. It's getting 
>>>spammed without intervention. It's much lower volume than such a fine 
>>>effort warrants.  Richard says he's out of there. It's adrift.
>>>
>>>And Mark's forum is outstanding, but does not right now have the 
>>>attention of the industry leaders, or actual developers, that this SIG 
>>>does. (No criticism, he's doing a wonderful job.) I'm on Audyssey every 
>>>day and it has a very active set of game developers that help each other 
>>>all the time. But it's limited to the blind and VI folks.
>>>
>>>I'd not heard of the RetroRemakes forum (thanks for the tip) but 
>>>according to its main page, it's most recent post was in August.
>>>
>>>Show me a forum where mainstream game developers meet to help each other 
>>>make accessibility happen.
>>>
>>>The three proposals stand.
>>>
>>>John
>>>
>>>At 11:47 AM 12/1/2007, you wrote:
>>>>A little harsh, John perhaps?
>>>>
>>>>1. Has been covered to various degrees here:
>>>>
>>>>http://www.oneswitch.org.uk/2/ARTICLES/physical-barriers.htm
>>>>http://www.ics.forth.gr/hci/ua-games/game-over/
>>>>http://www.helpyouplay.com/welcome.html
>>>>
>>>>(and other places too).
>>>>
>>>>2. Is is a good point. But there's so few mainstream developers making 
>>>>deliberate accessibity efforts that take into account specific 
>>>>disabilities. Here's a list of some:
>>>>
>>>>http://www.oneswitch.org.uk/2/pioneers.htm
>>>>http://gameaccessibility.blogspot.com/
>>>>
>>>>3. Forums here:
>>>>
>>>>http://www.game-accessibility.com/forum/
>>>>http://www.retroremakes.com/forum2/forumdisplay.php?f=84
>>>>http://ablegamers.com/component/option,com_fireboard/Itemid,606/
>>>>
>>>>We need the support of more people though!
>>>>
>>>>Barrie
>>>>www.OneSwitch.org.uk
>>>>www.igda.org/accessibility
>>>>
>>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "John Bannick" <jbannick at 7128.com>
>>>>To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
>>>>Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 4:05 PM
>>>>Subject: Re: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News
>>>>
>>>>>Reid is right.
>>>>>
>>>>>There are developers right now who want their work to be accessible.
>>>>>
>>>>>This SIG could right now facilitate that by:
>>>>>
>>>>>1. Providing, distributing, and publicizing a concise, specific set of 
>>>>>functional criteria that define what means accessible.
>>>>>2. Compiling, publishing, and publicizing an annual list of which 
>>>>>companies and games meet those criteria.
>>>>>3. Maintaining a forum (The currently rather drifting Game 
>>>>>Accessibility Project comes to mind) where developers can go for 
>>>>>immediate help.
>>>>>
>>>>>I'm a developer of games that are accessible.
>>>>>Have shipped 22 different revenue-generating products in a wide variety 
>>>>>of vertical markets in the last 30 years.
>>>>>Am neither stupid nor lazy.
>>>>>And don't see any of the 3 above items.
>>>>>
>>>>>None of the 3 items should take long to build as a first cut.
>>>>>
>>>>>And if not from this SIG, then from where?
>>>>>
>>>>>John Bannick
>>>>>CTO
>>>>>7-128 Software
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>At 02:26 AM 12/1/2007, you wrote:
>>>>>>Please, can we stop with the negative talk about GDC and the game
>>>>>>industry? I work in the game industry for LucasArts. Just last week I
>>>>>>talked to a highly respected programmer and he's 100% behind us and
>>>>>>wants to talk about what we can do to improve accessibility in our
>>>>>>games after our current milestone is finished. There are dozens of
>>>>>>people at LucasArts that support game accessibility. Nintendo totally
>>>>>>gets it, EA Games totally gets it with their Family Play modes in
>>>>>>their sports games. Peter Molyneux gets it, Will Wright... the list
>>>>>>goes on and on.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>It's offensive to me when people of this SIG accuse developers of not
>>>>>>caring because WE DO CARE. The last thing you want to do is insult the
>>>>>>people you have to work with. It's the quickest way to turn them away
>>>>>>from our cause.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>So, instead of complaining, lets do something about it! First,
>>>>>>everyone here needs to understand what it's like for developers and
>>>>>>why it's so hard for them to adopt accessibility features.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>1. Limited financial resources - Games are very expensive to make and
>>>>>>any new features adds to the cost. Before you can add accessibility
>>>>>>features you must have a game and that's where most of the money is
>>>>>>spent first.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>2. Limited time - Game development is incredibly complex and hard to
>>>>>>tame. No matter how much extra time gets budgeted into the production
>>>>>>schedule, it always runs out well before all tasks are complete. When
>>>>>>this happens, features get cut in order to save the core of the game
>>>>>>and again, without a game, there can't be any accessibility features.
>>>>>>Because this usually happens so late, there isn't enough time to work
>>>>>>on accessibility features before the game has to ship.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>3. Limited information - Even if a developer was pro-active and
>>>>>>scheduled the development of accessibility features into the games'
>>>>>>development schedule, there's still a major lack of knowledge and
>>>>>>tools that enable them to do their job. The SIG has been thinking
>>>>>>about accessibility features for years and we have all the solutions,
>>>>>>but developers don't yet. We need to make ourselves known and readily
>>>>>>available to help them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>What can we do to solve these issues? We need to develop our
>>>>>>relationships with developers and offer our assistance. Our attempts
>>>>>>to work with GarageGames is a good start. When a new game is announced
>>>>>>we should contact them and offer our expertise.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>We have GOT to get a website up so that we can communicate our
>>>>>>abilities and expertise to our target audiences (game developers).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>But there are technical issues and many of us are volunteers and so
>>>>>>things move very slowly.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Several of us are writing guidelines for implementing certain features
>>>>>>but again, this is a slow process. Others are doing research. Going to
>>>>>>conferences is awesome. Writing articles to Gamasutra is great as
>>>>>>well.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Eitan is right, we have to "sell" our expertise. It's not that
>>>>>>developers don't care, they don't know that they SHOULD care.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>-Reid
>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>games_access mailing list
>>>>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>--
>>>>>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>>>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>>>>>Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.11/1161 - Release Date: 
>>>>>>11/30/2007 12:12 PM
>>>>>
>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>games_access mailing list
>>>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>games_access mailing list
>>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>--
>>>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 
>>>>269.16.12/1163 - Release Date: 12/1/2007 12:05 PM
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>games_access mailing list
>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>games_access mailing list
>>games_access at igda.org
>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access 



From richard at audiogames.net  Sat Dec  1 14:33:15 2007
From: richard at audiogames.net (AudioGames.net)
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 20:33:15 +0100
Subject: [games_access] FORUM (was Re:  GDC 2008: VERY Bad News)
References: <006501c8312b$82902a60$6501a8c0@Inspiron><p0623090ac37223cd87e8@130.126.29.21><a6673b8d0711271244m7b678e79ye94e3a7688c020e2@mail.gmail.com><836db6300711300020r477e9abbldc4a6261effa5686@mail.gmail.com><008701c8337d$ac6de170$6501a8c0@Inspiron><p0623090fc3760c1b8d7d@130.126.29.21><30EC442C-11A9-416C-BE37-0540384E8C0A@pininteractive.com><000301c833bf$4c509a20$6501a8c0@Inspiron><3dd2060e0711302009g3635fb8eq5a12c64cb86a5972@mail.gmail.com><a6673b8d0711302326j60766890s4e63c3634b5f6bf5@mail.gmail.com><6.1.0.6.2.20071201103852.01d66f38@enigami.com><053001c83439$da0092b0$0202a8c0@oneswitch><6.1.0.6.2.20071201125153.01db69b0@enigami.com><008901c83449$926eefe0$6402a8c0@Delletje><p06230929c377621cb577@[130.126.29.21]>
	<013d01c83450$d8803cd0$6402a8c0@Delletje>
Message-ID: <014c01c83451$0504b8d0$6402a8c0@Delletje>

(could that post be more full of typos?!? hihi... that was NOT a dyslexia 
test ;)



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "AudioGames.net" <richard at audiogames.net>
To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 8:32 PM
Subject: Re: [games_access] FORUM (was Re: GDC 2008: VERY Bad News)


>I was not ciriticizing you so don't you don't feel criticized by me ;) I 
>don't even know if everyone agrees to that plan anyway...? Do you? It's is 
>just ONE option...
>
> Yes, I can help you.
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "d. michelle hinn" <hinn at uiuc.edu>
> To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
> Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 8:16 PM
> Subject: Re: [games_access] FORUM (was Re: GDC 2008: VERY Bad News)
>
>
>> Well, it seems that the IGDA web initiative is pretty dead at the moment 
>> so there's no reason why we can't adopt the site. Can you help us/me get 
>> in touch with the foundation again so that we can work this out and get 
>> our web presence seriously back on track?
>>
>> Remember -- you've also had to take some time off from working with the 
>> SIG (I know...I have a PhD to finish too but I'm not in as nice a 
>> situation) so please remember that when you criticize about action not 
>> being taken on this and that. Cool?
>>
>> Michelle
>>
>>>Hi,
>>>
>>>Just so you know: the GA forum was left unattended for some time but the 
>>>spam was removed as far as I could see. The forum is still pretty 
>>>popular, it's just that not that many SIG people attend it (because it is 
>>>not an "offical SIG" forum?).
>>>
>>>As I also said in the past: the Accessibility foundation is still 
>>>awaiting to be approached by the GA-SIG for collaborating on GA.com. I 
>>>already explained to a couple of you that with me and Sander having left 
>>>the foundation, most expertise left too. The foundation is currently 
>>>focusing on other projects and does not have the resources to maintain 
>>>this website at the moment. I already discussed a possible collaboration 
>>>with GA-SIG with my boss - EVEN to the extend of GA-SIG ADOPTING GA.com 
>>>and chaing it to a GA-SIG format - as if it was its own - with 
>>>Accessibility only sponsoring the website in the form of hosting it. As 
>>>far as I know, the foundation is still up for that. However, IGDA 
>>>politics intervened which resulted in that IGDA GA-SIG still does not 
>>>have a website to call their own. If GA-SIG does not want to collaborate 
>>>with GA.com then I would still suggest to buy www.gasig.org and simply 
>>>make a website under that for as long as IGDA politics keep intervening.
>>>
>>>Greets,
>>>
>>>Richard
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "John Bannick" <jbannick at 7128.com>
>>>To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
>>>Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 7:20 PM
>>>Subject: Re: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News
>>>
>>>>Barrie,
>>>>
>>>>No. Not harsh. Just on point. (Programmers are not hired for their 
>>>>social skills.)
>>>>
>>>>1. Yes.
>>>>
>>>>But this SIG is unique in that it is the one active place that covers 
>>>>multiple challenges, has an international audience, and clearly has the 
>>>>ears of some key industry players. If this SIG has its own concise, 
>>>>specific, answer to "what do you want us developers to do?" please point 
>>>>me to it.
>>>>
>>>>2. Again, this SIG has a unique position in that it can credibly publish 
>>>>such a list, that address multiple challenges, internationally, and has 
>>>>the ear of the major developers. Is there any such recognized list of 
>>>>companies and games? Why not from this SIG?
>>>>
>>>>3. Please.
>>>>
>>>>I'm on the Game Accessibility Project forum every day. It's getting 
>>>>spammed without intervention. It's much lower volume than such a fine 
>>>>effort warrants.  Richard says he's out of there. It's adrift.
>>>>
>>>>And Mark's forum is outstanding, but does not right now have the 
>>>>attention of the industry leaders, or actual developers, that this SIG 
>>>>does. (No criticism, he's doing a wonderful job.) I'm on Audyssey every 
>>>>day and it has a very active set of game developers that help each other 
>>>>all the time. But it's limited to the blind and VI folks.
>>>>
>>>>I'd not heard of the RetroRemakes forum (thanks for the tip) but 
>>>>according to its main page, it's most recent post was in August.
>>>>
>>>>Show me a forum where mainstream game developers meet to help each other 
>>>>make accessibility happen.
>>>>
>>>>The three proposals stand.
>>>>
>>>>John
>>>>
>>>>At 11:47 AM 12/1/2007, you wrote:
>>>>>A little harsh, John perhaps?
>>>>>
>>>>>1. Has been covered to various degrees here:
>>>>>
>>>>>http://www.oneswitch.org.uk/2/ARTICLES/physical-barriers.htm
>>>>>http://www.ics.forth.gr/hci/ua-games/game-over/
>>>>>http://www.helpyouplay.com/welcome.html
>>>>>
>>>>>(and other places too).
>>>>>
>>>>>2. Is is a good point. But there's so few mainstream developers making 
>>>>>deliberate accessibity efforts that take into account specific 
>>>>>disabilities. Here's a list of some:
>>>>>
>>>>>http://www.oneswitch.org.uk/2/pioneers.htm
>>>>>http://gameaccessibility.blogspot.com/
>>>>>
>>>>>3. Forums here:
>>>>>
>>>>>http://www.game-accessibility.com/forum/
>>>>>http://www.retroremakes.com/forum2/forumdisplay.php?f=84
>>>>>http://ablegamers.com/component/option,com_fireboard/Itemid,606/
>>>>>
>>>>>We need the support of more people though!
>>>>>
>>>>>Barrie
>>>>>www.OneSwitch.org.uk
>>>>>www.igda.org/accessibility
>>>>>
>>>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "John Bannick" <jbannick at 7128.com>
>>>>>To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
>>>>>Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 4:05 PM
>>>>>Subject: Re: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News
>>>>>
>>>>>>Reid is right.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>There are developers right now who want their work to be accessible.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>This SIG could right now facilitate that by:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>1. Providing, distributing, and publicizing a concise, specific set of 
>>>>>>functional criteria that define what means accessible.
>>>>>>2. Compiling, publishing, and publicizing an annual list of which 
>>>>>>companies and games meet those criteria.
>>>>>>3. Maintaining a forum (The currently rather drifting Game 
>>>>>>Accessibility Project comes to mind) where developers can go for 
>>>>>>immediate help.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I'm a developer of games that are accessible.
>>>>>>Have shipped 22 different revenue-generating products in a wide 
>>>>>>variety of vertical markets in the last 30 years.
>>>>>>Am neither stupid nor lazy.
>>>>>>And don't see any of the 3 above items.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>None of the 3 items should take long to build as a first cut.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>And if not from this SIG, then from where?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>John Bannick
>>>>>>CTO
>>>>>>7-128 Software
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>At 02:26 AM 12/1/2007, you wrote:
>>>>>>>Please, can we stop with the negative talk about GDC and the game
>>>>>>>industry? I work in the game industry for LucasArts. Just last week I
>>>>>>>talked to a highly respected programmer and he's 100% behind us and
>>>>>>>wants to talk about what we can do to improve accessibility in our
>>>>>>>games after our current milestone is finished. There are dozens of
>>>>>>>people at LucasArts that support game accessibility. Nintendo totally
>>>>>>>gets it, EA Games totally gets it with their Family Play modes in
>>>>>>>their sports games. Peter Molyneux gets it, Will Wright... the list
>>>>>>>goes on and on.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>It's offensive to me when people of this SIG accuse developers of not
>>>>>>>caring because WE DO CARE. The last thing you want to do is insult 
>>>>>>>the
>>>>>>>people you have to work with. It's the quickest way to turn them away
>>>>>>>from our cause.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>So, instead of complaining, lets do something about it! First,
>>>>>>>everyone here needs to understand what it's like for developers and
>>>>>>>why it's so hard for them to adopt accessibility features.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>1. Limited financial resources - Games are very expensive to make and
>>>>>>>any new features adds to the cost. Before you can add accessibility
>>>>>>>features you must have a game and that's where most of the money is
>>>>>>>spent first.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>2. Limited time - Game development is incredibly complex and hard to
>>>>>>>tame. No matter how much extra time gets budgeted into the production
>>>>>>>schedule, it always runs out well before all tasks are complete. When
>>>>>>>this happens, features get cut in order to save the core of the game
>>>>>>>and again, without a game, there can't be any accessibility features.
>>>>>>>Because this usually happens so late, there isn't enough time to work
>>>>>>>on accessibility features before the game has to ship.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>3. Limited information - Even if a developer was pro-active and
>>>>>>>scheduled the development of accessibility features into the games'
>>>>>>>development schedule, there's still a major lack of knowledge and
>>>>>>>tools that enable them to do their job. The SIG has been thinking
>>>>>>>about accessibility features for years and we have all the solutions,
>>>>>>>but developers don't yet. We need to make ourselves known and readily
>>>>>>>available to help them.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>What can we do to solve these issues? We need to develop our
>>>>>>>relationships with developers and offer our assistance. Our attempts
>>>>>>>to work with GarageGames is a good start. When a new game is 
>>>>>>>announced
>>>>>>>we should contact them and offer our expertise.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>We have GOT to get a website up so that we can communicate our
>>>>>>>abilities and expertise to our target audiences (game developers).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>But there are technical issues and many of us are volunteers and so
>>>>>>>things move very slowly.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Several of us are writing guidelines for implementing certain 
>>>>>>>features
>>>>>>>but again, this is a slow process. Others are doing research. Going 
>>>>>>>to
>>>>>>>conferences is awesome. Writing articles to Gamasutra is great as
>>>>>>>well.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Eitan is right, we have to "sell" our expertise. It's not that
>>>>>>>developers don't care, they don't know that they SHOULD care.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>-Reid
>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>games_access mailing list
>>>>>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>>>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>--
>>>>>>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>>>>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>>>>>>Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.11/1161 - Release Date: 
>>>>>>>11/30/2007 12:12 PM
>>>>>>
>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>games_access mailing list
>>>>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>games_access mailing list
>>>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>--
>>>>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>>Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 
>>>>>269.16.12/1163 - Release Date: 12/1/2007 12:05 PM
>>>>
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>games_access mailing list
>>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>games_access mailing list
>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> games_access mailing list
>> games_access at igda.org
>> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access 



From eelke.folmer at gmail.com  Sat Dec  1 15:41:46 2007
From: eelke.folmer at gmail.com (Eelke Folmer)
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 12:41:46 -0800
Subject: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News
In-Reply-To: <a6673b8d0711302326j60766890s4e63c3634b5f6bf5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <006501c8312b$82902a60$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
	<p0623090ac37223cd87e8@130.126.29.21>
	<a6673b8d0711271244m7b678e79ye94e3a7688c020e2@mail.gmail.com>
	<836db6300711300020r477e9abbldc4a6261effa5686@mail.gmail.com>
	<008701c8337d$ac6de170$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
	<p0623090fc3760c1b8d7d@130.126.29.21>
	<30EC442C-11A9-416C-BE37-0540384E8C0A@pininteractive.com>
	<000301c833bf$4c509a20$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
	<3dd2060e0711302009g3635fb8eq5a12c64cb86a5972@mail.gmail.com>
	<a6673b8d0711302326j60766890s4e63c3634b5f6bf5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <836db6300712011241hd4fc7cy157c769e5eaf73b5@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Reid,

On 30/11/2007, Reid Kimball <reid at rbkdesign.com> wrote:
> Please, can we stop with the negative talk about GDC and the game
> industry?

It's not negative it's realistic.

> I work in the game industry for LucasArts. Just last week I
> talked to a highly respected programmer and he's 100% behind us and
> wants to talk about what we can do to improve accessibility in our

Those "want-to"'s are nice but sadly its not reflected by any
accessible games in the market. Accessible as in people with
disabilities can play them not necessarily appealing to a larger
audience (though there are similarities). I don't agree with your
statement that Nintendo gets the message. Their games may appeal to a
larger audience but technically a game like Wii sports is less
accessible to people with disabilities, blind can't play it, deaf
dont' have captions and physically impaired even have more problems
than with a regular controller. A blood and violence game like postal
may appeal to a smaller audience but technically more people are able
to play it (including those with disabilities). It is important to
make this distinction.

With regard to making games accessible. I'm not saying individual
programmers don't care; ask any programmer/artist at any game company
and anyone will support accessible games that's not the problem.
Whether the game will be made accessible or not is not in the hands of
programmers like but is in the hand of producers and management. They
will only take decisions that pay off. Adding new features is only
beneficial if the benefits (the extra copies it may sell) weigh off
against the investments (adding the features, debugging, testing,
features may interact with other features leading to more testing,
etc).

I think it is our task to focus on that and provide quantitative data
on that so management can make informed decisions on whether or not to
make a game accessible. What happens now is that developers may want
to make their game accessible but 6 weeks before the gold master is
due they think "When in doubt leave it out" and it gets not
implemented. With my projects I am clearly measuring how much
implementation effort is associated, probably someone at that specific
game company can implement our features faster but at least we will be
able to provide a worst case estimate.

Cheers Eelke

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eelke Folmer                           Assistant Professor
Department of CS&E/171
University of Nevada              Reno, Nevada 89557
Game interaction design        www.helpyouplay.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------------


From barrie.ellis at oneswitch.org.uk  Sat Dec  1 16:11:18 2007
From: barrie.ellis at oneswitch.org.uk (Barrie Ellis)
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 21:11:18 -0000
Subject: [games_access] forums
References: <006501c8312b$82902a60$6501a8c0@Inspiron><p0623090ac37223cd87e8@130.126.29.21><a6673b8d0711271244m7b678e79ye94e3a7688c020e2@mail.gmail.com><836db6300711300020r477e9abbldc4a6261effa5686@mail.gmail.com><008701c8337d$ac6de170$6501a8c0@Inspiron><p0623090fc3760c1b8d7d@130.126.29.21><30EC442C-11A9-416C-BE37-0540384E8C0A@pininteractive.com><000301c833bf$4c509a20$6501a8c0@Inspiron><3dd2060e0711302009g3635fb8eq5a12c64cb86a5972@mail.gmail.com><a6673b8d0711302326j60766890s4e63c3634b5f6bf5@mail.gmail.com>
	<6.1.0.6.2.20071201103852.01d66f38@enigami.com>
Message-ID: <05eb01c8345e$b75d14c0$0202a8c0@oneswitch>

Why don't we go back to using our original official IGDA forum - which we 
have more control over? Any thoughts?

http://www.igda.org/Forums/forumdisplay.php?s=4cebefbd189d439649eacb1e401adb9a&forumid=189

We could ask the IGDA nicely to add a bit more functionaility (e.g. the 
ability to add images with ALT text facility - videos etc.).

Barrie



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John Bannick" <jbannick at 7128.com>
To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 4:05 PM
Subject: Re: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News


> Reid is right.
>
> There are developers right now who want their work to be accessible.
>
> This SIG could right now facilitate that by:
>
> 1. Providing, distributing, and publicizing a concise, specific set of 
> functional criteria that define what means accessible.
> 2. Compiling, publishing, and publicizing an annual list of which 
> companies and games meet those criteria.
> 3. Maintaining a forum (The currently rather drifting Game Accessibility 
> Project comes to mind) where developers can go for immediate help.
>
> I'm a developer of games that are accessible.
> Have shipped 22 different revenue-generating products in a wide variety of 
> vertical markets in the last 30 years.
> Am neither stupid nor lazy.
> And don't see any of the 3 above items.
>
> None of the 3 items should take long to build as a first cut.
>
> And if not from this SIG, then from where?
>
> John Bannick
> CTO
> 7-128 Software
>
>
> At 02:26 AM 12/1/2007, you wrote:
>>Please, can we stop with the negative talk about GDC and the game
>>industry? I work in the game industry for LucasArts. Just last week I
>>talked to a highly respected programmer and he's 100% behind us and
>>wants to talk about what we can do to improve accessibility in our
>>games after our current milestone is finished. There are dozens of
>>people at LucasArts that support game accessibility. Nintendo totally
>>gets it, EA Games totally gets it with their Family Play modes in
>>their sports games. Peter Molyneux gets it, Will Wright... the list
>>goes on and on.
>>
>>It's offensive to me when people of this SIG accuse developers of not
>>caring because WE DO CARE. The last thing you want to do is insult the
>>people you have to work with. It's the quickest way to turn them away
>>from our cause.
>>
>>So, instead of complaining, lets do something about it! First,
>>everyone here needs to understand what it's like for developers and
>>why it's so hard for them to adopt accessibility features.
>>
>>1. Limited financial resources - Games are very expensive to make and
>>any new features adds to the cost. Before you can add accessibility
>>features you must have a game and that's where most of the money is
>>spent first.
>>
>>2. Limited time - Game development is incredibly complex and hard to
>>tame. No matter how much extra time gets budgeted into the production
>>schedule, it always runs out well before all tasks are complete. When
>>this happens, features get cut in order to save the core of the game
>>and again, without a game, there can't be any accessibility features.
>>Because this usually happens so late, there isn't enough time to work
>>on accessibility features before the game has to ship.
>>
>>3. Limited information - Even if a developer was pro-active and
>>scheduled the development of accessibility features into the games'
>>development schedule, there's still a major lack of knowledge and
>>tools that enable them to do their job. The SIG has been thinking
>>about accessibility features for years and we have all the solutions,
>>but developers don't yet. We need to make ourselves known and readily
>>available to help them.
>>
>>What can we do to solve these issues? We need to develop our
>>relationships with developers and offer our assistance. Our attempts
>>to work with GarageGames is a good start. When a new game is announced
>>we should contact them and offer our expertise.
>>
>>We have GOT to get a website up so that we can communicate our
>>abilities and expertise to our target audiences (game developers).
>>
>>But there are technical issues and many of us are volunteers and so
>>things move very slowly.
>>
>>Several of us are writing guidelines for implementing certain features
>>but again, this is a slow process. Others are doing research. Going to
>>conferences is awesome. Writing articles to Gamasutra is great as
>>well.
>>
>>Eitan is right, we have to "sell" our expertise. It's not that
>>developers don't care, they don't know that they SHOULD care.
>>
>>-Reid
>>_______________________________________________
>>games_access mailing list
>>games_access at igda.org
>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>
>>
>>--
>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.11/1161 - Release Date: 
>>11/30/2007 12:12 PM
>
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access 





From barrie.ellis at oneswitch.org.uk  Sat Dec  1 16:30:57 2007
From: barrie.ellis at oneswitch.org.uk (Barrie Ellis)
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 21:30:57 -0000
Subject: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News
References: <006501c8312b$82902a60$6501a8c0@Inspiron><p0623090ac37223cd87e8@130.126.29.21><a6673b8d0711271244m7b678e79ye94e3a7688c020e2@mail.gmail.com><836db6300711300020r477e9abbldc4a6261effa5686@mail.gmail.com><008701c8337d$ac6de170$6501a8c0@Inspiron><p0623090fc3760c1b8d7d@130.126.29.21><30EC442C-11A9-416C-BE37-0540384E8C0A@pininteractive.com><000301c833bf$4c509a20$6501a8c0@Inspiron><3dd2060e0711302009g3635fb8eq5a12c64cb86a5972@mail.gmail.com><a6673b8d0711302326j60766890s4e63c3634b5f6bf5@mail.gmail.com><6.1.0.6.2.20071201103852.01d66f38@enigami.com><p0623091cc3774402a76e@[130.126.29.21]><6.1.0.6.2.20071201123300.01d9e6a0@enigami.com><005001c83446$5fccee00$6402a8c0@Delletje>
	<007601c83447$2ec4c930$6402a8c0@Delletje>
Message-ID: <05f601c83461$778bc5a0$0202a8c0@oneswitch>

Looks good, Richard - not sure on your copyright message - as much of the 
content is already public domain information that you've rejigged... Useful 
stuff though.

Barrie

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "AudioGames.net" <richard at audiogames.net>
To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 6:22 PM
Subject: Re: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News


> By the way: found a later version of that document:
>
> http://www2.hku.nl/~mosh/ga/gatheoryshort029.doc
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "AudioGames.net" <richard at audiogames.net>
> To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
> Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 7:17 PM
> Subject: Re: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News
>
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Well, me? > 1) See my doc, which I think is the best attempt to capture 
>> game accessibility so far. I anyone disagrees PLEASE :) tell me... :)
>>
>> Greets,
>>
>> Richard
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "John Bannick" <jbannick at 7128.com>
>> To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 6:51 PM
>> Subject: Re: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News
>>
>>
>>> Michelle,
>>>
>>> Well put.
>>>
>>> So OK. I volunteer to assemble, contribute to, and be responsible for 
>>> delivery of Item 1.
>>>
>>> This means:
>>>
>>> 1. Getting from you good folks any work in progress you want to share, 
>>> synthesizing it into something that works, getting a quick review by 
>>> anyone here who is interested, and delivering a first cut of SIG Game 
>>> Accessibility Criteria.
>>>
>>> 2. Getting from anyone here who wants to contribute, and contributing 
>>> to, a list of target developers, organizations, institutions, and 
>>> distributors we send this to, getting a quick review, and delivering a 
>>> first cut Distribution List.
>>>
>>> 3. Writing a first draft cover letter /  promo piece, that is sent with 
>>> the Criteria, getting a quick review, and delivering this first cut 
>>> Cover Letter.
>>>
>>> All of the above sent to you, Michelle NLT 15 January, 2008.
>>> That way you get the volunteer work, you maintain control, and everyone 
>>> is included.
>>>
>>> BTW. This isn't nearly as formidable as developing coding standards for 
>>> the 50 engineers who did the software that laid out the NY Times, and 
>>> surviving the process.
>>>
>>> Does this work for you, Michelle?
>>>
>>> John Bannick
>>>
>>> At 12:24 PM 12/1/2007, you wrote:
>>>>All of the things John mentions are projects we have talked about and/or 
>>>>taken passes at (the top ten list from two years ago and now the new 
>>>>project that Barrie has started up, etc). Others have brought up other 
>>>>ideas that we've either done or attempted and then the projects lost 
>>>>momentum. All these things are great but there's a problem...these 
>>>>things also take active volunteers in the SIG and from that perspective 
>>>>our numbers are low. So we need people who are willing to put in the 
>>>>time and may/may not get any reimbursement for that time and every 
>>>>project cannot be started and maintained by me.
>>>>
>>>>So instead of continuing to criticize ourselves (I know...I started it 
>>>>but I was really mad after killing myself over the proposals at 
>>>>deadline), the industry, the GDC etc...who from WITHIN this SIG can put 
>>>>in the time needed for these things AND actually follow through? No, 
>>>>it's not fair that we aren't in a position to reimburse people for time 
>>>>and that won't change in the near future. But it's something that will 
>>>>have to change and it will change but we can't just wait for that day to 
>>>>come (because it won't come if we don't put in the sweat equity now). 
>>>>People need to honestly commit the time and work because they believe in 
>>>>making change. Take some of that anger and tell me what YOU are willing 
>>>>to do to help us make change. Take ownership of something on behalf of 
>>>>the SIG. Ideas are great...but we need people who will put in the work 
>>>>so that the "SIG" is able to do these things.
>>>>
>>>>So who will join in putting in some volunteer time so that these ideas 
>>>>can become reality?
>>>>
>>>>Michelle
>>>>
>>>>>Reid is right.
>>>>>
>>>>>There are developers right now who want their work to be accessible.
>>>>>
>>>>>This SIG could right now facilitate that by:
>>>>>
>>>>>1. Providing, distributing, and publicizing a concise, specific set of 
>>>>>functional criteria that define what means accessible.
>>>>>2. Compiling, publishing, and publicizing an annual list of which 
>>>>>companies and games meet those criteria.
>>>>>3. Maintaining a forum (The currently rather drifting Game 
>>>>>Accessibility Project comes to mind) where developers can go for 
>>>>>immediate help.
>>>>>
>>>>>I'm a developer of games that are accessible.
>>>>>Have shipped 22 different revenue-generating products in a wide variety 
>>>>>of vertical markets in the last 30 years.
>>>>>Am neither stupid nor lazy.
>>>>>And don't see any of the 3 above items.
>>>>>
>>>>>None of the 3 items should take long to build as a first cut.
>>>>>
>>>>>And if not from this SIG, then from where?
>>>>>
>>>>>John Bannick
>>>>>CTO
>>>>>7-128 Software
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>At 02:26 AM 12/1/2007, you wrote:
>>>>>>Please, can we stop with the negative talk about GDC and the game
>>>>>>industry? I work in the game industry for LucasArts. Just last week I
>>>>>>talked to a highly respected programmer and he's 100% behind us and
>>>>>>wants to talk about what we can do to improve accessibility in our
>>>>>>games after our current milestone is finished. There are dozens of
>>>>>>people at LucasArts that support game accessibility. Nintendo totally
>>>>>>gets it, EA Games totally gets it with their Family Play modes in
>>>>>>their sports games. Peter Molyneux gets it, Will Wright... the list
>>>>>>goes on and on.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>It's offensive to me when people of this SIG accuse developers of not
>>>>>>caring because WE DO CARE. The last thing you want to do is insult the
>>>>>>people you have to work with. It's the quickest way to turn them away
>>>>>>from our cause.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>So, instead of complaining, lets do something about it! First,
>>>>>>everyone here needs to understand what it's like for developers and
>>>>>>why it's so hard for them to adopt accessibility features.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>1. Limited financial resources - Games are very expensive to make and
>>>>>>any new features adds to the cost. Before you can add accessibility
>>>>>>features you must have a game and that's where most of the money is
>>>>>>spent first.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>2. Limited time - Game development is incredibly complex and hard to
>>>>>>tame. No matter how much extra time gets budgeted into the production
>>>>>>schedule, it always runs out well before all tasks are complete. When
>>>>>>this happens, features get cut in order to save the core of the game
>>>>>>and again, without a game, there can't be any accessibility features.
>>>>>>Because this usually happens so late, there isn't enough time to work
>>>>>>on accessibility features before the game has to ship.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>3. Limited information - Even if a developer was pro-active and
>>>>>>scheduled the development of accessibility features into the games'
>>>>>>development schedule, there's still a major lack of knowledge and
>>>>>>tools that enable them to do their job. The SIG has been thinking
>>>>>>about accessibility features for years and we have all the solutions,
>>>>>>but developers don't yet. We need to make ourselves known and readily
>>>>>>available to help them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>What can we do to solve these issues? We need to develop our
>>>>>>relationships with developers and offer our assistance. Our attempts
>>>>>>to work with GarageGames is a good start. When a new game is announced
>>>>>>we should contact them and offer our expertise.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>We have GOT to get a website up so that we can communicate our
>>>>>>abilities and expertise to our target audiences (game developers).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>But there are technical issues and many of us are volunteers and so
>>>>>>things move very slowly.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Several of us are writing guidelines for implementing certain features
>>>>>>but again, this is a slow process. Others are doing research. Going to
>>>>>>conferences is awesome. Writing articles to Gamasutra is great as
>>>>>>well.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Eitan is right, we have to "sell" our expertise. It's not that
>>>>>>developers don't care, they don't know that they SHOULD care.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>-Reid
>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>games_access mailing list
>>>>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>--
>>>>>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>>>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>>>>>Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.11/1161 - Release Date: 
>>>>>>11/30/2007 12:12 PM
>>>>>
>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>games_access mailing list
>>>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>>
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>games_access mailing list
>>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>--
>>>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 
>>>>269.16.12/1163 - Release Date: 12/1/2007 12:05 PM
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> games_access mailing list
>>> games_access at igda.org
>>> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> games_access mailing list
>> games_access at igda.org
>> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access 





From j.chetwynd at btinternet.com  Sat Dec  1 16:52:30 2007
From: j.chetwynd at btinternet.com (=?UTF-8?B?In46Jycg44GC44KK44GM44Go44GG44GU44GW44GE44G+44GX44Gf?= =?UTF-8?B?44CCIg==?=)
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 21:52:30 +0000
Subject: [games_access] Ludum Dare X - Dec 14-16 - Update
References: <200712012116.20768.ms@cerenity.org>
Message-ID: <3105B9C7-C7E5-444A-AED8-0AA4FCABE1EC@btinternet.com>

forwarded, wondering if there is an accessibility strand ~:"

Jonathan Chetwynd
Accessibility Consultant on Media Literacy and the Internet

Hey,

  Ludum Dare 10 is coming! Ludum Dare is a regular community driven game
development competition. The goal is, given a theme and 48 hours, to  
develop
a game from scratch. Ludum Dare aims to encourage game design
experimentation, and provide a platform to develop and practice rapid  
game
prototyping.
     Website: http://www.imitationpickles.org/ludum/

     Rules & Stuff: http://www.imitationpickles.org/ludum/wiki/start

     IRC: #ludumdare on irc.afternet.org

     Dec. 7-14th - Registration and Theme Voting

     Dec. 14 at 7pm PST and runs until the 16th at 7pm PST

     We're also building an archive of entries from previous compos.  
Goto the
compo site and add your old entries! They will be added to the  
screenshot
grids:

     Overall: http://www.imitationpickles.org/ludum/?mythumb_nav=1

     Per Author: http://www.imitationpickles.org/ludum/author/hamumu/

     Per Compo: http://www.imitationpickles.org/ludum/category/ld8/

     Per Tag: http://www.imitationpickles.org/ludum/tag/farm/

     Lastly, if you have participated in previous LD's and have a  
game-dev
related blog, I'd be thrilled to aggregate it onto the site. Create an
account and then contact me with your blog info and I will add it ASAP.
     Hope to see you there!

  -Phil




From hinn at uiuc.edu  Sat Dec  1 17:23:17 2007
From: hinn at uiuc.edu (d. michelle hinn)
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 16:23:17 -0600
Subject: [games_access] Ludum Dare X - Dec 14-16 - Update
In-Reply-To: <3105B9C7-C7E5-444A-AED8-0AA4FCABE1EC@btinternet.com>
References: <200712012116.20768.ms@cerenity.org>
	<3105B9C7-C7E5-444A-AED8-0AA4FCABE1EC@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <p06230903c3778f3747bc@[130.126.29.70]>

Why not start one yourself, Jonathan? Sounds great!

Michelle

>forwarded, wondering if there is an accessibility strand ~:"
>
>Jonathan Chetwynd
>Accessibility Consultant on Media Literacy and the Internet
>
>Hey,
>
>  Ludum Dare 10 is coming! Ludum Dare is a regular community driven game
>development competition. The goal is, given a theme and 48 hours, to develop
>a game from scratch. Ludum Dare aims to encourage game design
>experimentation, and provide a platform to develop and practice rapid game
>prototyping.
>     Website: http://www.imitationpickles.org/ludum/
>
>     Rules & Stuff: http://www.imitationpickles.org/ludum/wiki/start
>
>     IRC: #ludumdare on irc.afternet.org
>
>     Dec. 7-14th - Registration and Theme Voting
>
>     Dec. 14 at 7pm PST and runs until the 16th at 7pm PST
>
>     We're also building an archive of entries from previous compos. Goto the
>compo site and add your old entries! They will be added to the screenshot
>grids:
>
>     Overall: http://www.imitationpickles.org/ludum/?mythumb_nav=1
>
>     Per Author: http://www.imitationpickles.org/ludum/author/hamumu/
>
>     Per Compo: http://www.imitationpickles.org/ludum/category/ld8/
>
>     Per Tag: http://www.imitationpickles.org/ludum/tag/farm/
>
>     Lastly, if you have participated in previous LD's and have a game-dev
>related blog, I'd be thrilled to aggregate it onto the site. Create an
>account and then contact me with your blog info and I will add it ASAP.
>     Hope to see you there!
>
>  -Phil
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access



From hinn at uiuc.edu  Sat Dec  1 17:30:09 2007
From: hinn at uiuc.edu (d. michelle hinn)
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 16:30:09 -0600
Subject: [games_access] forums
In-Reply-To: <05eb01c8345e$b75d14c0$0202a8c0@oneswitch>
References: <006501c8312b$82902a60$6501a8c0@Inspiron><p0623090ac37223cd87e8@130.126.29
	.21><a6673b8d0711271244m7b678e79ye94e3a7688c020e2@mail.gmail.com><836db630
	0711300020r477e9abbldc4a6261effa5686@mail.gmail.com><008701c8337d$ac6de170
	$6501a8c0@Inspiron><p0623090fc3760c1b8d7d@130.126.29.21><30EC442C-11A9-416
	C-BE37-0540384E8C0A@pininteractive.com><000301c833bf$4c509a20$6501a8c0@Ins
	piron><3dd2060e0711302009g3635fb8eq5a12c64cb86a5972@mail.gmail.com><a6673b
	8d0711302326j60766890s4e63c3634b5f6bf5@mail.gmail.com>
	<6.1.0.6.2.20071201103852.01d66f38@enigami.com>
	<05eb01c8345e$b75d14c0$0202a8c0@oneswitch>
Message-ID: <p06230904c3778f5d50bf@[130.126.29.70]>

Hey Barrie,

Well, unfortunately that brings us back to the issue of the "new" 
IGDA web stuff that was (I thought) about to roll out over the 
summer. It's my understanding that they are going to "upgrade" the 
forums, SIG websites, etc but to what I don't know. So it's a good 
idea to ask -- but the general gist I've been getting has been that 
everything is going into the "new" stuff.

But I also understand that we are really scattered already with our 
stuff so the fewer redirects we have the more "together" our site 
will look and feel. Any thoughts about the advantage of one forum 
design over another?

Michelle

>Why don't we go back to using our original official IGDA forum - 
>which we have more control over? Any thoughts?
>
>http://www.igda.org/Forums/forumdisplay.php?s=4cebefbd189d439649eacb1e401adb9a&forumid=189
>
>We could ask the IGDA nicely to add a bit more functionaility (e.g. 
>the ability to add images with ALT text facility - videos etc.).
>
>Barrie
>
>
>
>----- Original Message ----- From: "John Bannick" <jbannick at 7128.com>
>To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
>Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 4:05 PM
>Subject: Re: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News
>
>>Reid is right.
>>
>>There are developers right now who want their work to be accessible.
>>
>>This SIG could right now facilitate that by:
>>
>>1. Providing, distributing, and publicizing a concise, specific set 
>>of functional criteria that define what means accessible.
>>2. Compiling, publishing, and publicizing an annual list of which 
>>companies and games meet those criteria.
>>3. Maintaining a forum (The currently rather drifting Game 
>>Accessibility Project comes to mind) where developers can go for 
>>immediate help.
>>
>>I'm a developer of games that are accessible.
>>Have shipped 22 different revenue-generating products in a wide 
>>variety of vertical markets in the last 30 years.
>>Am neither stupid nor lazy.
>>And don't see any of the 3 above items.
>>
>>None of the 3 items should take long to build as a first cut.
>>
>>And if not from this SIG, then from where?
>>
>>John Bannick
>>CTO
>>7-128 Software
>>
>>
>>At 02:26 AM 12/1/2007, you wrote:
>>>Please, can we stop with the negative talk about GDC and the game
>>>industry? I work in the game industry for LucasArts. Just last week I
>>>talked to a highly respected programmer and he's 100% behind us and
>>>wants to talk about what we can do to improve accessibility in our
>>>games after our current milestone is finished. There are dozens of
>>>people at LucasArts that support game accessibility. Nintendo totally
>>>gets it, EA Games totally gets it with their Family Play modes in
>>>their sports games. Peter Molyneux gets it, Will Wright... the list
>>>goes on and on.
>>>
>>>It's offensive to me when people of this SIG accuse developers of not
>>>caring because WE DO CARE. The last thing you want to do is insult the
>>>people you have to work with. It's the quickest way to turn them away
>>>from our cause.
>>>
>>>So, instead of complaining, lets do something about it! First,
>>>everyone here needs to understand what it's like for developers and
>>>why it's so hard for them to adopt accessibility features.
>>>
>>>1. Limited financial resources - Games are very expensive to make and
>>>any new features adds to the cost. Before you can add accessibility
>>>features you must have a game and that's where most of the money is
>>>spent first.
>>>
>>>2. Limited time - Game development is incredibly complex and hard to
>>>tame. No matter how much extra time gets budgeted into the production
>>>schedule, it always runs out well before all tasks are complete. When
>>>this happens, features get cut in order to save the core of the game
>>>and again, without a game, there can't be any accessibility features.
>>>Because this usually happens so late, there isn't enough time to work
>>>on accessibility features before the game has to ship.
>>>
>>>3. Limited information - Even if a developer was pro-active and
>>>scheduled the development of accessibility features into the games'
>>>development schedule, there's still a major lack of knowledge and
>>>tools that enable them to do their job. The SIG has been thinking
>>>about accessibility features for years and we have all the solutions,
>>>but developers don't yet. We need to make ourselves known and readily
>>>available to help them.
>>>
>>>What can we do to solve these issues? We need to develop our
>>>relationships with developers and offer our assistance. Our attempts
>>>to work with GarageGames is a good start. When a new game is announced
>>>we should contact them and offer our expertise.
>>>
>>>We have GOT to get a website up so that we can communicate our
>>>abilities and expertise to our target audiences (game developers).
>>>
>>>But there are technical issues and many of us are volunteers and so
>>>things move very slowly.
>>>
>>>Several of us are writing guidelines for implementing certain features
>>>but again, this is a slow process. Others are doing research. Going to
>>>conferences is awesome. Writing articles to Gamasutra is great as
>>>well.
>>>
>>>Eitan is right, we have to "sell" our expertise. It's not that
>>>developers don't care, they don't know that they SHOULD care.
>>>
>>>-Reid
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>games_access mailing list
>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>
>>>
>>>--
>>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>>Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.11/1161 - Release Date: 
>>>11/30/2007 12:12 PM
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>games_access mailing list
>>games_access at igda.org
>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access



From arthit73 at cablespeed.com  Sat Dec  1 17:37:14 2007
From: arthit73 at cablespeed.com (Robert Florio)
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 17:37:14 -0500
Subject: [games_access] forums
In-Reply-To: AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIykNSwA
References: <006501c8312b$82902a60$6501a8c0@Inspiron><p0623090ac37223cd87e8@130.126.29.21><a6673b8d0711271244m7b678e79ye94e3a7688c020e2@mail.gmail.com><836db6300711300020r477e9abbldc4a6261effa5686@mail.gmail.com><008701c8337d$ac6de170$6501a8c0@Inspiron><p0623090fc3760c1b8d7d@130.126.29.21><30EC442C-11A9-416C-BE37-0540384E8C0A@pininteractive.com><000301c833bf$4c509a20$6501a8c0@Inspiron><3dd2060e0711302009g3635fb8eq5a12c64cb86a5972@mail.gmail.com><a6673b8d0711302326j60766890s4e63c3634b5f6bf5@mail.gmail.com><6.1.0.6.2.20071201103852.01d66f38@enigami.com><05eb01c8345e$b75d14c0$0202a8c0@oneswitch>
	AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIykNSwA
Message-ID: <004f01c8346a$bb9ff820$6501a8c0@Inspiron>

Hi Michelle.  I'm not sure what you mean by advantage over one forum design
over another can you explain please?  The way it's laid out for colors I'm
not sure it matters is there something that matters?

Robert

-----Original Message-----
From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
On Behalf Of d. michelle hinn
Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 5:30 PM
To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
Subject: Re: [games_access] forums

Hey Barrie,

Well, unfortunately that brings us back to the issue of the "new" 
IGDA web stuff that was (I thought) about to roll out over the 
summer. It's my understanding that they are going to "upgrade" the 
forums, SIG websites, etc but to what I don't know. So it's a good 
idea to ask -- but the general gist I've been getting has been that 
everything is going into the "new" stuff.

But I also understand that we are really scattered already with our 
stuff so the fewer redirects we have the more "together" our site 
will look and feel. Any thoughts about the advantage of one forum 
design over another?

Michelle

>Why don't we go back to using our original official IGDA forum - 
>which we have more control over? Any thoughts?
>
>http://www.igda.org/Forums/forumdisplay.php?s=4cebefbd189d439649eacb1e401ad
b9a&forumid=189
>
>We could ask the IGDA nicely to add a bit more functionaility (e.g. 
>the ability to add images with ALT text facility - videos etc.).
>
>Barrie
>
>
>
>----- Original Message ----- From: "John Bannick" <jbannick at 7128.com>
>To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
>Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 4:05 PM
>Subject: Re: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News
>
>>Reid is right.
>>
>>There are developers right now who want their work to be accessible.
>>
>>This SIG could right now facilitate that by:
>>
>>1. Providing, distributing, and publicizing a concise, specific set 
>>of functional criteria that define what means accessible.
>>2. Compiling, publishing, and publicizing an annual list of which 
>>companies and games meet those criteria.
>>3. Maintaining a forum (The currently rather drifting Game 
>>Accessibility Project comes to mind) where developers can go for 
>>immediate help.
>>
>>I'm a developer of games that are accessible.
>>Have shipped 22 different revenue-generating products in a wide 
>>variety of vertical markets in the last 30 years.
>>Am neither stupid nor lazy.
>>And don't see any of the 3 above items.
>>
>>None of the 3 items should take long to build as a first cut.
>>
>>And if not from this SIG, then from where?
>>
>>John Bannick
>>CTO
>>7-128 Software
>>
>>
>>At 02:26 AM 12/1/2007, you wrote:
>>>Please, can we stop with the negative talk about GDC and the game
>>>industry? I work in the game industry for LucasArts. Just last week I
>>>talked to a highly respected programmer and he's 100% behind us and
>>>wants to talk about what we can do to improve accessibility in our
>>>games after our current milestone is finished. There are dozens of
>>>people at LucasArts that support game accessibility. Nintendo totally
>>>gets it, EA Games totally gets it with their Family Play modes in
>>>their sports games. Peter Molyneux gets it, Will Wright... the list
>>>goes on and on.
>>>
>>>It's offensive to me when people of this SIG accuse developers of not
>>>caring because WE DO CARE. The last thing you want to do is insult the
>>>people you have to work with. It's the quickest way to turn them away
>>>from our cause.
>>>
>>>So, instead of complaining, lets do something about it! First,
>>>everyone here needs to understand what it's like for developers and
>>>why it's so hard for them to adopt accessibility features.
>>>
>>>1. Limited financial resources - Games are very expensive to make and
>>>any new features adds to the cost. Before you can add accessibility
>>>features you must have a game and that's where most of the money is
>>>spent first.
>>>
>>>2. Limited time - Game development is incredibly complex and hard to
>>>tame. No matter how much extra time gets budgeted into the production
>>>schedule, it always runs out well before all tasks are complete. When
>>>this happens, features get cut in order to save the core of the game
>>>and again, without a game, there can't be any accessibility features.
>>>Because this usually happens so late, there isn't enough time to work
>>>on accessibility features before the game has to ship.
>>>
>>>3. Limited information - Even if a developer was pro-active and
>>>scheduled the development of accessibility features into the games'
>>>development schedule, there's still a major lack of knowledge and
>>>tools that enable them to do their job. The SIG has been thinking
>>>about accessibility features for years and we have all the solutions,
>>>but developers don't yet. We need to make ourselves known and readily
>>>available to help them.
>>>
>>>What can we do to solve these issues? We need to develop our
>>>relationships with developers and offer our assistance. Our attempts
>>>to work with GarageGames is a good start. When a new game is announced
>>>we should contact them and offer our expertise.
>>>
>>>We have GOT to get a website up so that we can communicate our
>>>abilities and expertise to our target audiences (game developers).
>>>
>>>But there are technical issues and many of us are volunteers and so
>>>things move very slowly.
>>>
>>>Several of us are writing guidelines for implementing certain features
>>>but again, this is a slow process. Others are doing research. Going to
>>>conferences is awesome. Writing articles to Gamasutra is great as
>>>well.
>>>
>>>Eitan is right, we have to "sell" our expertise. It's not that
>>>developers don't care, they don't know that they SHOULD care.
>>>
>>>-Reid
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>games_access mailing list
>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>
>>>
>>>--
>>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>>Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.11/1161 - Release Date: 
>>>11/30/2007 12:12 PM
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>games_access mailing list
>>games_access at igda.org
>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access

_______________________________________________
games_access mailing list
games_access at igda.org
http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access



From hinn at uiuc.edu  Sat Dec  1 18:01:39 2007
From: hinn at uiuc.edu (d. michelle hinn)
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 17:01:39 -0600
Subject: [games_access] forums
In-Reply-To: <004f01c8346a$bb9ff820$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
References: <006501c8312b$82902a60$6501a8c0@Inspiron><p0623090ac37223cd87e8@130.126.29
	.21><a6673b8d0711271244m7b678e79ye94e3a7688c020e2@mail.gmail.com><836db630
	0711300020r477e9abbldc4a6261effa5686@mail.gmail.com><008701c8337d$ac6de170
	$6501a8c0@Inspiron><p0623090fc3760c1b8d7d@130.126.29.21><30EC442C-11A9-416
	C-BE37-0540384E8C0A@pininteractive.com><000301c833bf$4c509a20$6501a8c0@Ins
	piron><3dd2060e0711302009g3635fb8eq5a12c64cb86a5972@mail.gmail.com><a6673b
	8d0711302326j60766890s4e63c3634b5f6bf5@mail.gmail.com><6.1.0.6.2.200712011
	03852.01d66f38@enigami.com><05eb01c8345e$b75d14c0$0202a8c0@oneswitch>
	AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIykNSwA
	<004f01c8346a$bb9ff820$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
Message-ID: <p06230905c37797572f35@[130.126.29.70]>

What I mean is with regard to ease of use and accessibility (it would 
be weird to have a non-accessible accessibility forum). :) I was 
hoping that some of the more "webby" amongst us can guide us as to 
which kind of forum is best for the most people.

Michelle

>Hi Michelle.  I'm not sure what you mean by advantage over one forum design
>over another can you explain please?  The way it's laid out for colors I'm
>not sure it matters is there something that matters?
>
>Robert
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
>On Behalf Of d. michelle hinn
>Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 5:30 PM
>To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
>Subject: Re: [games_access] forums
>
>Hey Barrie,
>
>Well, unfortunately that brings us back to the issue of the "new"
>IGDA web stuff that was (I thought) about to roll out over the
>summer. It's my understanding that they are going to "upgrade" the
>forums, SIG websites, etc but to what I don't know. So it's a good
>idea to ask -- but the general gist I've been getting has been that
>everything is going into the "new" stuff.
>
>But I also understand that we are really scattered already with our
>stuff so the fewer redirects we have the more "together" our site
>will look and feel. Any thoughts about the advantage of one forum
>design over another?
>
>Michelle
>
>>Why don't we go back to using our original official IGDA forum -
>>which we have more control over? Any thoughts?
>>
>>http://www.igda.org/Forums/forumdisplay.php?s=4cebefbd189d439649eacb1e401ad
>b9a&forumid=189
>>
>>We could ask the IGDA nicely to add a bit more functionaility (e.g.
>>the ability to add images with ALT text facility - videos etc.).
>>
>>Barrie
>>
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message ----- From: "John Bannick" <jbannick at 7128.com>
>>To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
>>Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 4:05 PM
>>Subject: Re: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News
>>
>>>Reid is right.
>>>
>>>There are developers right now who want their work to be accessible.
>>>
>>>This SIG could right now facilitate that by:
>>>
>>>1. Providing, distributing, and publicizing a concise, specific set
>>>of functional criteria that define what means accessible.
>>>2. Compiling, publishing, and publicizing an annual list of which
>>>companies and games meet those criteria.
>>>3. Maintaining a forum (The currently rather drifting Game
>>>Accessibility Project comes to mind) where developers can go for
>>>immediate help.
>>>
>>>I'm a developer of games that are accessible.
>>>Have shipped 22 different revenue-generating products in a wide
>>>variety of vertical markets in the last 30 years.
>>>Am neither stupid nor lazy.
>>>And don't see any of the 3 above items.
>>>
>>>None of the 3 items should take long to build as a first cut.
>>>
>>>And if not from this SIG, then from where?
>>>
>>>John Bannick
>>>CTO
>>>7-128 Software
>>>
>>>
>>>At 02:26 AM 12/1/2007, you wrote:
>>>>Please, can we stop with the negative talk about GDC and the game
>>>>industry? I work in the game industry for LucasArts. Just last week I
>>>>talked to a highly respected programmer and he's 100% behind us and
>>>>wants to talk about what we can do to improve accessibility in our
>>>>games after our current milestone is finished. There are dozens of
>>>>people at LucasArts that support game accessibility. Nintendo totally
>>>>gets it, EA Games totally gets it with their Family Play modes in
>>>>their sports games. Peter Molyneux gets it, Will Wright... the list
>>>>goes on and on.
>>>>
>>>>It's offensive to me when people of this SIG accuse developers of not
>>>>caring because WE DO CARE. The last thing you want to do is insult the
>>>>people you have to work with. It's the quickest way to turn them away
>>>>from our cause.
>>>>
>>>>So, instead of complaining, lets do something about it! First,
>>>>everyone here needs to understand what it's like for developers and
>>>>why it's so hard for them to adopt accessibility features.
>  >>>
>>>>1. Limited financial resources - Games are very expensive to make and
>>>>any new features adds to the cost. Before you can add accessibility
>>>>features you must have a game and that's where most of the money is
>>>>spent first.
>>>>
>>>>2. Limited time - Game development is incredibly complex and hard to
>>>>tame. No matter how much extra time gets budgeted into the production
>>>>schedule, it always runs out well before all tasks are complete. When
>>>>this happens, features get cut in order to save the core of the game
>>>>and again, without a game, there can't be any accessibility features.
>>>>Because this usually happens so late, there isn't enough time to work
>>>>on accessibility features before the game has to ship.
>>>>
>>>>3. Limited information - Even if a developer was pro-active and
>>>>scheduled the development of accessibility features into the games'
>>>>development schedule, there's still a major lack of knowledge and
>>>>tools that enable them to do their job. The SIG has been thinking
>>>>about accessibility features for years and we have all the solutions,
>>>>but developers don't yet. We need to make ourselves known and readily
>>>>available to help them.
>>>>
>>>>What can we do to solve these issues? We need to develop our
>>>>relationships with developers and offer our assistance. Our attempts
>>>>to work with GarageGames is a good start. When a new game is announced
>>>>we should contact them and offer our expertise.
>>>>
>>>>We have GOT to get a website up so that we can communicate our
>>>>abilities and expertise to our target audiences (game developers).
>>>>
>>>>But there are technical issues and many of us are volunteers and so
>>>>things move very slowly.
>>>>
>>>>Several of us are writing guidelines for implementing certain features
>>>>but again, this is a slow process. Others are doing research. Going to
>>>>conferences is awesome. Writing articles to Gamasutra is great as
>>>>well.
>>>>
>>>>Eitan is right, we have to "sell" our expertise. It's not that
>>>>developers don't care, they don't know that they SHOULD care.
>>>>
>>>>-Reid
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>games_access mailing list
>>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>--
>>>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>>>Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.11/1161 - Release Date:
>>>>11/30/2007 12:12 PM
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>games_access mailing list
>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>games_access mailing list
>>games_access at igda.org
>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access



From hinn at uiuc.edu  Sat Dec  1 18:52:56 2007
From: hinn at uiuc.edu (d. michelle hinn)
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 17:52:56 -0600
Subject: [games_access] FORUM (was Re:  GDC 2008: VERY Bad News)
In-Reply-To: <014c01c83451$0504b8d0$6402a8c0@Delletje>
References: <006501c8312b$82902a60$6501a8c0@Inspiron><p0623090ac37223cd87e8@130.126.29
	.21><a6673b8d0711271244m7b678e79ye94e3a7688c020e2@mail.gmail.com><836db630
	0711300020r477e9abbldc4a6261effa5686@mail.gmail.com><008701c8337d$ac6de170
	$6501a8c0@Inspiron><p0623090fc3760c1b8d7d@130.126.29.21><30EC442C-11A9-416
	C-BE37-0540384E8C0A@pininteractive.com><000301c833bf$4c509a20$6501a8c0@Ins
	piron><3dd2060e0711302009g3635fb8eq5a12c64cb86a5972@mail.gmail.com><a6673b
	8d0711302326j60766890s4e63c3634b5f6bf5@mail.gmail.com><6.1.0.6.2.200712011
	03852.01d66f38@enigami.com><053001c83439$da0092b0$0202a8c0@oneswitch><6.1.
	0.6.2.20071201125153.01db69b0@enigami.com><008901c83449$926eefe0$6402a8c0@
	Delletje><p06230929c377621cb577@[130.126.29.21]>
	<013d01c83450$d8803cd0$6402a8c0@Delletje>
	<014c01c83451$0504b8d0$6402a8c0@Delletje>
Message-ID: <p06230907c3779ab7f9b2@[130.126.29.70]>

lol. ;)

Personally...I think that anything that's already done and can save 
us from reinventing the wheel is great. What everything comes down to 
is using our resources (time being the biggest one right now!) 
smartly so I'd rather see us transfer stuff from GA.com to GA-SIG or 
whatever than create a whole new site.

I hope no one feels like I'm being anti-suggestions/opinions. 
Everyone is welcome to say as much as they want here and whatever 
they want. What I want to encourage in the SIG is more individual 
volunteerism and ownership. So when there's an issue of something not 
getting done or happening and people are getting disappointed and 
disgruntled perhaps we could each look towards ourselves and ask "ok, 
what can I do now to make this happen? It's an important task that 
needs to get done and I'm invested in it."

Of course no one -- yes, not even me ;) -- can do it all. And not 
everyone is going to agree with everything (hell, I'd have curled up 
into the fetal position and given up long ago if I felt like that had 
to happen!). :) But it's hard not to say "ok, well then GO FOR IT" 
when people say "we should do this and that." Because I've already 
seen this movie -- it creeps onto the SIG list every 3-4 months and 
there's a flurry of "yeah, we should..." and "oh yeah why don't 
we..." and "I'm mad because we don't...". Then? We lose our cable 
connection somehow and it takes months before it gets fixed and by 
then -- wouldn't you know it? That same movie is on again. ;)

The SIG is all of us. Let's all start owning it.

Michelle

>(could that post be more full of typos?!? hihi... that was NOT a 
>dyslexia test ;)
>
>
>
>----- Original Message ----- From: "AudioGames.net" <richard at audiogames.net>
>To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
>Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 8:32 PM
>Subject: Re: [games_access] FORUM (was Re: GDC 2008: VERY Bad News)
>
>>I was not ciriticizing you so don't you don't feel criticized by me 
>>;) I don't even know if everyone agrees to that plan anyway...? Do 
>>you? It's is just ONE option...
>>
>>Yes, I can help you.
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message ----- From: "d. michelle hinn" <hinn at uiuc.edu>
>>To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
>>Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 8:16 PM
>>Subject: Re: [games_access] FORUM (was Re: GDC 2008: VERY Bad News)
>>
>>>Well, it seems that the IGDA web initiative is pretty dead at the 
>>>moment so there's no reason why we can't adopt the site. Can you 
>>>help us/me get in touch with the foundation again so that we can 
>>>work this out and get our web presence seriously back on track?
>>>
>>>Remember -- you've also had to take some time off from working 
>>>with the SIG (I know...I have a PhD to finish too but I'm not in 
>>>as nice a situation) so please remember that when you criticize 
>>>about action not being taken on this and that. Cool?
>>>
>>>Michelle
>>>
>>>>Hi,
>>>>
>>>>Just so you know: the GA forum was left unattended for some time 
>>>>but the spam was removed as far as I could see. The forum is 
>>>>still pretty popular, it's just that not that many SIG people 
>>>>attend it (because it is not an "offical SIG" forum?).
>>>>
>>>>As I also said in the past: the Accessibility foundation is still 
>>>>awaiting to be approached by the GA-SIG for collaborating on 
>>>>GA.com. I already explained to a couple of you that with me and 
>>>>Sander having left the foundation, most expertise left too. The 
>>>>foundation is currently focusing on other projects and does not 
>>>>have the resources to maintain this website at the moment. I 
>>>>already discussed a possible collaboration with GA-SIG with my 
>>>>boss - EVEN to the extend of GA-SIG ADOPTING GA.com and chaing it 
>>>>to a GA-SIG format - as if it was its own - with Accessibility 
>>>>only sponsoring the website in the form of hosting it. As far as 
>>>>I know, the foundation is still up for that. However, IGDA 
>>>>politics intervened which resulted in that IGDA GA-SIG still does 
>>>>not have a website to call their own. If GA-SIG does not want to 
>>>>collaborate with GA.com then I would still suggest to buy 
>>>>www.gasig.org and simply make a website under that for as long as 
>>>>IGDA politics keep intervening.
>>>>
>>>>Greets,
>>>>
>>>>Richard
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "John Bannick" <jbannick at 7128.com>
>>>>To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
>>>>Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 7:20 PM
>>>>Subject: Re: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News
>>>>
>>>>>Barrie,
>>>>>
>>>>>No. Not harsh. Just on point. (Programmers are not hired for 
>>>>>their social skills.)
>>>>>
>>>>>1. Yes.
>>>>>
>>>>>But this SIG is unique in that it is the one active place that 
>>>>>covers multiple challenges, has an international audience, and 
>>>>>clearly has the ears of some key industry players. If this SIG 
>>>>>has its own concise, specific, answer to "what do you want us 
>>>>>developers to do?" please point me to it.
>>>>>
>>>>>2. Again, this SIG has a unique position in that it can credibly 
>>>>>publish such a list, that address multiple challenges, 
>>>>>internationally, and has the ear of the major developers. Is 
>>>>>there any such recognized list of companies and games? Why not 
>>>>>from this SIG?
>>>>>
>>>>>3. Please.
>>>>>
>>>>>I'm on the Game Accessibility Project forum every day. It's 
>>>>>getting spammed without intervention. It's much lower volume 
>>>>>than such a fine effort warrants.  Richard says he's out of 
>>>>>there. It's adrift.
>>>>>
>>>>>And Mark's forum is outstanding, but does not right now have the 
>>>>>attention of the industry leaders, or actual developers, that 
>>>>>this SIG does. (No criticism, he's doing a wonderful job.) I'm 
>>>>>on Audyssey every day and it has a very active set of game 
>>>>>developers that help each other all the time. But it's limited 
>>>>>to the blind and VI folks.
>>>>>
>>>>>I'd not heard of the RetroRemakes forum (thanks for the tip) but 
>>>>>according to its main page, it's most recent post was in August.
>>>>>
>>>>>Show me a forum where mainstream game developers meet to help 
>>>>>each other make accessibility happen.
>>>>>
>>>>>The three proposals stand.
>>>>>
>>>>>John
>>>>>
>>>>>At 11:47 AM 12/1/2007, you wrote:
>>>>>>A little harsh, John perhaps?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>1. Has been covered to various degrees here:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>http://www.oneswitch.org.uk/2/ARTICLES/physical-barriers.htm
>>>>>>http://www.ics.forth.gr/hci/ua-games/game-over/
>>>>>>http://www.helpyouplay.com/welcome.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>>(and other places too).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>2. Is is a good point. But there's so few mainstream developers 
>>>>>>making deliberate accessibity efforts that take into account 
>>>>>>specific disabilities. Here's a list of some:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>http://www.oneswitch.org.uk/2/pioneers.htm
>>>>>>http://gameaccessibility.blogspot.com/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>3. Forums here:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>http://www.game-accessibility.com/forum/
>>>>>>http://www.retroremakes.com/forum2/forumdisplay.php?f=84
>>>>>>http://ablegamers.com/component/option,com_fireboard/Itemid,606/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>We need the support of more people though!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Barrie
>>>>>>www.OneSwitch.org.uk
>>>>>>www.igda.org/accessibility
>>>>>>
>>>>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "John Bannick" <jbannick at 7128.com>
>>>>>>To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
>>>>>>Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 4:05 PM
>>>>>>Subject: Re: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Reid is right.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>There are developers right now who want their work to be accessible.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>This SIG could right now facilitate that by:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>1. Providing, distributing, and publicizing a concise, 
>>>>>>>specific set of functional criteria that define what means 
>>>>>>>accessible.
>>>>>>>2. Compiling, publishing, and publicizing an annual list of 
>>>>>>>which companies and games meet those criteria.
>>>>>>>3. Maintaining a forum (The currently rather drifting Game 
>>>>>>>Accessibility Project comes to mind) where developers can go 
>>>>>>>for immediate help.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I'm a developer of games that are accessible.
>>>>>>>Have shipped 22 different revenue-generating products in a 
>>>>>>>wide variety of vertical markets in the last 30 years.
>>>>>>>Am neither stupid nor lazy.
>>>>>>>And don't see any of the 3 above items.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>None of the 3 items should take long to build as a first cut.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>And if not from this SIG, then from where?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>John Bannick
>>>>>>>CTO
>>>>>>>7-128 Software
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>At 02:26 AM 12/1/2007, you wrote:
>>>>>>>>Please, can we stop with the negative talk about GDC and the game
>>>>>>>>industry? I work in the game industry for LucasArts. Just last week I
>>>>>>>>talked to a highly respected programmer and he's 100% behind us and
>>>>>>>>wants to talk about what we can do to improve accessibility in our
>>>>>>>>games after our current milestone is finished. There are dozens of
>>>>>>>>people at LucasArts that support game accessibility. Nintendo totally
>>>>>>>>gets it, EA Games totally gets it with their Family Play modes in
>>>>>>>>their sports games. Peter Molyneux gets it, Will Wright... the list
>>>>>>>>goes on and on.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>It's offensive to me when people of this SIG accuse developers of not
>>>>>>>>caring because WE DO CARE. The last thing you want to do is insult the
>>>>>>>>people you have to work with. It's the quickest way to turn them away
>>>>>>>>from our cause.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>So, instead of complaining, lets do something about it! First,
>>>>>>>>everyone here needs to understand what it's like for developers and
>>>>>>>>why it's so hard for them to adopt accessibility features.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>1. Limited financial resources - Games are very expensive to make and
>>>>>>>>any new features adds to the cost. Before you can add accessibility
>>>>>>>>features you must have a game and that's where most of the money is
>>>>>>>>spent first.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>2. Limited time - Game development is incredibly complex and hard to
>>>>>>>>tame. No matter how much extra time gets budgeted into the production
>>>>>>>>schedule, it always runs out well before all tasks are complete. When
>>>>>>>>this happens, features get cut in order to save the core of the game
>>>>>>>>and again, without a game, there can't be any accessibility features.
>>>>>>>>Because this usually happens so late, there isn't enough time to work
>>>>>>>>on accessibility features before the game has to ship.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>3. Limited information - Even if a developer was pro-active and
>>>>>>>>scheduled the development of accessibility features into the games'
>>>>>>>>development schedule, there's still a major lack of knowledge and
>>>>>>>>tools that enable them to do their job. The SIG has been thinking
>>>>>>>>about accessibility features for years and we have all the solutions,
>>>>>>>>but developers don't yet. We need to make ourselves known and readily
>>>>>>>>available to help them.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>What can we do to solve these issues? We need to develop our
>>>>>>>>relationships with developers and offer our assistance. Our attempts
>>>>>>>>to work with GarageGames is a good start. When a new game is announced
>>>>>>>>we should contact them and offer our expertise.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>We have GOT to get a website up so that we can communicate our
>>>>>>>>abilities and expertise to our target audiences (game developers).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>But there are technical issues and many of us are volunteers and so
>>>>>>>>things move very slowly.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Several of us are writing guidelines for implementing certain features
>>>>>>>>but again, this is a slow process. Others are doing research. Going to
>>>>>>>>conferences is awesome. Writing articles to Gamasutra is great as
>>>>>>>>well.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Eitan is right, we have to "sell" our expertise. It's not that
>>>>>>>>developers don't care, they don't know that they SHOULD care.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>-Reid
>>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>games_access mailing list
>>>>>>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>>>>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>--
>>>>>>>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>>>>>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>>>>>>>Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.11/1161 - Release 
>>>>>>>>Date: 11/30/2007 12:12 PM
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>games_access mailing list
>>>>>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>>>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>games_access mailing list
>>>>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>--
>>>>>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>>>Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 
>>>>>>269.16.12/1163 - Release Date: 12/1/2007 12:05 PM
>>>>>
>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>games_access mailing list
>>>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>>
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>games_access mailing list
>>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>games_access mailing list
>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>games_access mailing list
>>games_access at igda.org
>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access



From barrie.ellis at oneswitch.org.uk  Sun Dec  2 03:38:05 2007
From: barrie.ellis at oneswitch.org.uk (Barrie Ellis)
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 08:38:05 -0000
Subject: [games_access] Blog: Top 3 Top 3 and IGDA GASIG Awards Ceremony 2008
Message-ID: <000a01c834be$a90a8a50$0202a8c0@oneswitch>

Feeling guilty - I've tweaked the IGDA GASIG blog to feature a "Blog Topics" area - which will be expanded later. I liked the look of the awards area... and thought - this is obvious, but... Why don't we start our own awards ceremony? It would be a bit of fun - and not too much work to start with I recon.

Why don't we start recognising the games that have got some good accessibility features built in? We could keep nominations simple - and awards being a nice e-mail from us to the winners - any other interested press - and of course mention on our blog + site.

Maybe:

Best pointer based game (for head-tracker / eye-tracker / touch-screen gamers).
Best audio game.
Best one switch game.
Best use of closed captions / subtitling.
IGDA GASIG historical award (great games from the past).
IGDA GASIG special award.
IGDA GASIG best of 2008.

??

Anyway - I've also set-up a "Top 3 Accessibility Features" section for particular game genres: http://gameaccessibility.blogspot.com/search/label/Top%203

Pinball, Golf, Driving games covered at present. I'd appreciate people's thoughts, and also on any suggestions of companies to contact once we have a basic consensus. I realise there's lots of things not covered - this is not the point - it's to try and get some of the simplest concepts with the lowest potential overheads to the people making games (indies, home coders, mainstream - anyone!).

This stuff stands on the shoulders of everyone's work so far - so please don't think I'm claiming this as my baby. It's not. It's ours - so help us to make it useful... Perhaps we should get a standard e-mail drafted (with further links for more help as it stands presently - e.g. Eelke's design patterns - Game-Accessibility.com - our forum? our mailing list and so on....

Enough from me today I think...

Barrie
www.OneSwitch.org.uk
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From thomas at pininteractive.com  Sat Dec  1 18:14:40 2007
From: thomas at pininteractive.com (Thomas Westin)
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 00:14:40 +0100
Subject: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News
In-Reply-To: <3dd2060e0711302009g3635fb8eq5a12c64cb86a5972@mail.gmail.com>
References: <006501c8312b$82902a60$6501a8c0@Inspiron><p0623090ac37223cd87e8@130.126.29.21><a6673b8d0711271244m7b678e79ye94e3a7688c020e2@mail.gmail.com><836db6300711300020r477e9abbldc4a6261effa5686@mail.gmail.com><008701c8337d$ac6de170$6501a8c0@Inspiron><p0623090fc3760c1b8d7d@130.126.29.21><30EC442C-11A9-416C-BE37-0540384E8C0A@pininteractive.com><000301c833bf$4c509a20$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
	<3dd2060e0711302009g3635fb8eq5a12c64cb86a5972@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2E9DA490-CD1F-457F-A5AE-1B4D2820494F@pininteractive.com>

Agreed, lobbying won't change it but serious games will - i.e the use  
of games in other contexts than entertainment, such as public schools  
need to be accessible (at least in Sweden)

/thomas

1 dec 2007 kl. 05.09 skrev Eitan Glinert:

> It is law, at least federally:
> http://www.section508.gov/
>
> The gov't doesn't regulate private industry in this regard, and I  
> don't think lobbying is going to change that.

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From thomas at pininteractive.com  Sat Dec  1 18:23:14 2007
From: thomas at pininteractive.com (Thomas Westin)
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 00:23:14 +0100
Subject: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News
In-Reply-To: <a6673b8d0711302326j60766890s4e63c3634b5f6bf5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <006501c8312b$82902a60$6501a8c0@Inspiron><p0623090ac37223cd87e8@130.126.29.21><a6673b8d0711271244m7b678e79ye94e3a7688c020e2@mail.gmail.com><836db6300711300020r477e9abbldc4a6261effa5686@mail.gmail.com><008701c8337d$ac6de170$6501a8c0@Inspiron><p0623090fc3760c1b8d7d@130.126.29.21><30EC442C-11A9-416C-BE37-0540384E8C0A@pininteractive.com><000301c833bf$4c509a20$6501a8c0@Inspiron><3dd2060e0711302009g3635fb8eq5a12c64cb86a5972@mail.gmail.com>
	<a6673b8d0711302326j60766890s4e63c3634b5f6bf5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E49D5119-800B-44EA-A3B2-6EC80931FF86@pininteractive.com>

sorry Reid, didn't intend to offend you or anyone in the industry;  
I'm sure many are behind the cause.

what I meant was where to put our efforts - if few people attend a  
session I've travelled half-way around the globe to present, and paid  
for it from my own pocket (flight and hotel) and spend 7 days+ doing  
so, all for free, it is disappointing with just a handful of attendees..

we just get lost in translation at GDC S.F, while at smaller  
conferences we are seen and listened to. I'd rather go to a small  
conference where people listen than to GDC S.F where very few listen.  
But of course, we shouldn't skip S.F altogether, but until attendance  
change I can't motivate to spend 1500 USD out of my own pocket and 7  
days+ of my time going there.

/Thomas



1 dec 2007 kl. 08.26 skrev Reid Kimball:

> Please, can we stop with the negative talk about GDC and the game
> industry? I work in the game industry for LucasArts. Just last week I
> talked to a highly respected programmer and he's 100% behind us and
> wants to talk about what we can do to improve accessibility in our
> games after our current milestone is finished. There are dozens of
> people at LucasArts that support game accessibility. Nintendo totally
> gets it, EA Games totally gets it with their Family Play modes in
> their sports games. Peter Molyneux gets it, Will Wright... the list
> goes on and on.
>
> It's offensive to me when people of this SIG accuse developers of not
> caring because WE DO CARE. The last thing you want to do is insult the
> people you have to work with. It's the quickest way to turn them away
> from our cause.
>
> So, instead of complaining, lets do something about it! First,
> everyone here needs to understand what it's like for developers and
> why it's so hard for them to adopt accessibility features.
>
> 1. Limited financial resources - Games are very expensive to make and
> any new features adds to the cost. Before you can add accessibility
> features you must have a game and that's where most of the money is
> spent first.
>
> 2. Limited time - Game development is incredibly complex and hard to
> tame. No matter how much extra time gets budgeted into the production
> schedule, it always runs out well before all tasks are complete. When
> this happens, features get cut in order to save the core of the game
> and again, without a game, there can't be any accessibility features.
> Because this usually happens so late, there isn't enough time to work
> on accessibility features before the game has to ship.
>
> 3. Limited information - Even if a developer was pro-active and
> scheduled the development of accessibility features into the games'
> development schedule, there's still a major lack of knowledge and
> tools that enable them to do their job. The SIG has been thinking
> about accessibility features for years and we have all the solutions,
> but developers don't yet. We need to make ourselves known and readily
> available to help them.
>
> What can we do to solve these issues? We need to develop our
> relationships with developers and offer our assistance. Our attempts
> to work with GarageGames is a good start. When a new game is announced
> we should contact them and offer our expertise.
>
> We have GOT to get a website up so that we can communicate our
> abilities and expertise to our target audiences (game developers).
>
> But there are technical issues and many of us are volunteers and so
> things move very slowly.
>
> Several of us are writing guidelines for implementing certain features
> but again, this is a slow process. Others are doing research. Going to
> conferences is awesome. Writing articles to Gamasutra is great as
> well.
>
> Eitan is right, we have to "sell" our expertise. It's not that
> developers don't care, they don't know that they SHOULD care.
>
> -Reid
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access



From thomas at pininteractive.com  Sat Dec  1 18:26:42 2007
From: thomas at pininteractive.com (Thomas Westin)
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 00:26:42 +0100
Subject: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News
In-Reply-To: <836db6300712010017jfe1a297tfd5fc483093b545d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <006501c8312b$82902a60$6501a8c0@Inspiron><p0623090ac37223cd87e8@130.126.29.21><a6673b8d0711271244m7b678e79ye94e3a7688c020e2@mail.gmail.com><836db6300711300020r477e9abbldc4a6261effa5686@mail.gmail.com><008701c8337d$ac6de170$6501a8c0@Inspiron><p0623090fc3760c1b8d7d@130.126.29.21><30EC442C-11A9-416C-BE37-0540384E8C0A@pininteractive.com>
	<836db6300712010017jfe1a297tfd5fc483093b545d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6CC937E4-210B-4B10-8FC0-E9EA06874D92@pininteractive.com>

you have one indie right here :)

/Thomas

1 dec 2007 kl. 09.17 skrev Eelke Folmer:

>  why not focus on those who will shape the
> future of the games industry? --> Independent game developers.


__________________________________
Thomas Westin
VD/CEO

Pin Interactive AB
:: Digital Culture Analysis :: Tools :: Worlds
__________________________________
Award Winning Developer

www.pininteractive.com
+46 (0)706 400 402
Skype: thomaswestin

Stop Genocide in Darfur
http://action.savedarfur.org/campaign/savedarfurcoalition

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From barrie.ellis at oneswitch.org.uk  Sun Dec  2 06:10:58 2007
From: barrie.ellis at oneswitch.org.uk (Barrie Ellis)
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 11:10:58 -0000
Subject: [games_access] Top 3 Top 3 and IGDA GASIG Awards Ceremony 2008
Message-ID: <003701c834d4$043173c0$0202a8c0@oneswitch>

Feeling guilty - I've tweaked the IGDA GASIG blog to feature a "Blog Topics" 
area - which will be expanded later. I liked the look of the awards area... 
and thought - this is obvious, but... Why don't we start our own awards 
ceremony? It would be a bit of fun - and not too much work to start with I 
recon.

Why don't we start recognising the games that have got some good 
accessibility features built in? We could keep nominations simple - and 
awards being a nice e-mail from us to the winners - any other interested 
press - and of course mention on our blog + site.

Maybe:

Best pointer based game (for head-tracker / eye-tracker / touch-screen 
gamers).
Best audio game.
Best one switch game.
Best use of closed captions / subtitling.
IGDA GASIG historical award (great games from the past).
IGDA GASIG special award.
IGDA GASIG best of 2008.

??

Anyway - I've also set-up a "Top 3 Accessibility Features" section for 
particular game genres: 
http://gameaccessibility.blogspot.com/search/label/Top%203

Pinball, Golf, Driving games covered at present. I'd appreciate people's 
thoughts, and also on any suggestions of companies to contact once we have a 
basic consensus. I realise there's lots of things not covered - this is not 
the point - it's to try and get some of the simplest concepts with the 
lowest potential overheads to the people making games (indies, home coders, 
mainstream - anyone!).

This stuff stands on the shoulders of everyone's work so far - so please 
don't think I'm claiming this as my baby. It's not. It's ours - so help us 
to make it useful... Perhaps we should get a standard e-mail drafted (with 
further links for more help as it stands presently - e.g. Eelke's design 
patterns - Game-Accessibility.com - our forum? our mailing list and so 
on....

Enough from me today I think...

Barrie
www.OneSwitch.org.uk 





From richard at audiogames.net  Sun Dec  2 06:54:21 2007
From: richard at audiogames.net (AudioGames.net)
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 12:54:21 +0100
Subject: [games_access] Blog: Top 3 Top 3 and IGDA GASIG Awards Ceremony
	2008
References: <000a01c834be$a90a8a50$0202a8c0@oneswitch>
Message-ID: <006c01c834da$13bae730$6402a8c0@Delletje>

Hi,

I got some thoughts about this and it is a bit related to what I wrote in my earlier email concerning incoherent information and stuff. I'll try to explain the best I can. On first glance I think "Excellent! 3 simple key points that developers can easily implement and therefore help to make many games a little more accessible". 
But on second glance, I think these small Top 3 lists are misleading - in the bigger picture of game accessibility. If you put it like this to the outside world, it might seem that these three features (essentially the same three features repeated over three genres) are somehow "the most important" features because of the use of the word 'top' (which somehow refers to the option that there might be more). I agree that these three would makes many games a bit more accessible, but I think there are other features that are equally important and would also make many games a bit more accessible. I guess these three are mostly targeted towards the target group that you work with in real life (gamers with physical and learning impairments?) . For 'my' target group (the group that I worked with most - gamers with visual impairments) none of these 3 features make any difference accessibility-wise. Examples of "easy" accessibility features for them would include "color-blind accessibility" (no colour-communication OR provide alternatives to color-communication), "rescalable fonts", "customizable fonts", "customizable contrast", etc. Why wouldn't these not be in your list? They would make many games a little more accessible and are all very "easy"... ?

But here's another thought about "easy"...

Thing is, I have the feeling that there is no thing such as 'easy accessibility'. When I look at this top 3, your second feature ("Compatibility with Alternative Controllers") is not "easy" at all. It is a lot of work to make a game work with alternative controllers, especially when a certain controller has fewer control capacity than the controllable functions in the game. Your "easy" point 2 is actually my Keypoint 1 [1]. And to make my Keypoint 1 work, one cannot play without (my) Keypoint 2 (which is partially your point 1) AND (my) Keypoint 3 ("Interaction Techniques"). 
My point: I think many accessibility features have consequences that also need to be dealt with. If you do not communicate this fact to developers, I think that's misleading.

I think a list of accessibility features/requirements/design guidelines is good. I guess it is possible to rank each feature with a "easyness of implementation" (for instance, by looking at how much consequences a certain features has - providing a customizable font setting in Prince of Persia doesn't have as much design consequences as to control Prince of Persia with a single switch-controller).  I also think that once you do that, you get a different Top 3 than you present now.

So...

I think such "easy Top 3" lists are a good idea but should be presented slightly different - not as "The Top Of Them All". And when it concerns "easy", we have to be honest about how "easy" it really is. I think you are doing a great job and am glad with your initiative!!!

Best regards,

Richard


[1] http://www2.hku.nl/~mosh/ga/gatheoryshort029.doc



  Anyway - I've also set-up a "Top 3 Accessibility Features" section for particular game genres: http://gameaccessibility.blogspot.com/search/label/Top%203

  Pinball, Golf, Driving games covered at present. I'd appreciate people's thoughts, and also on any suggestions of companies to contact once we have a basic consensus. I realise there's lots of things not covered - this is not the point - it's to try and get some of the simplest concepts with the lowest potential overheads to the people making games (indies, home coders, mainstream - anyone!).

  This stuff stands on the shoulders of everyone's work so far - so please don't think I'm claiming this as my baby. It's not. It's ours - so help us to make it useful... Perhaps we should get a standard e-mail drafted (with further links for more help as it stands presently - e.g. Eelke's design patterns - Game-Accessibility.com - our forum? our mailing list and so on....

  Enough from me today I think...

  Barrie
  www.OneSwitch.org.uk
-------------- next part --------------
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From barrie.ellis at oneswitch.org.uk  Sun Dec  2 07:22:28 2007
From: barrie.ellis at oneswitch.org.uk (Barrie Ellis)
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 12:22:28 -0000
Subject: [games_access] Blog: Top 3 Top 3 and IGDA GASIG Awards
	Ceremony2008
References: <000a01c834be$a90a8a50$0202a8c0@oneswitch>
	<006c01c834da$13bae730$6402a8c0@Delletje>
Message-ID: <00ab01c834de$012d28e0$0202a8c0@oneswitch>

Hi Richard,

I understand what you are saying re. the word "Top" - it's a bit obvious - but it's catchy and yes it may not be 100% accurate... But these lists are more specific to the genres than you give them credit. It's not difficult to simplify the controls of a golf, driving or pinball game down to less controls, and to make them all digital if needed. It's some work - but I don't agree that this is much of a stretch. I don't want to ignore blind and visually impaired gamers - I personally just don't agree that those adjustments you mention are the easiest for non-insiders to fully grasp. If you want scalable fonts - you'll equally expect everything fundamental to the game to be equally clear - not so easy either. The colour-blind aspect can get quite tricky too without full and proper advice.

I wouldn't really be expecting main-stream developers to jump in with one-switch access for games - but seeing as some iterations of Everybody's Golf almost already can be played just by pressing X - it didn't seem unreasonable to mention.

I agree we need some kind of IGDA GASIG guidelines - but in lieu of that, and in lieu of sitting on my hands... thought this might be helpful.

I've also added extra links at the bottom of each Top 3 to link to extra help (Game Over, Barriers in Games, Help you Play and us of course).

Ideally - this is a basic list that will give developers something to think about with those specific genres. Can it hurt?

Barrie



----- Original Message ----- 
  From: AudioGames.net 
  To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List 
  Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 11:54 AM
  Subject: Re: [games_access] Blog: Top 3 Top 3 and IGDA GASIG Awards Ceremony2008


  Hi,

  I got some thoughts about this and it is a bit related to what I wrote in my earlier email concerning incoherent information and stuff. I'll try to explain the best I can. On first glance I think "Excellent! 3 simple key points that developers can easily implement and therefore help to make many games a little more accessible". 
  But on second glance, I think these small Top 3 lists are misleading - in the bigger picture of game accessibility. If you put it like this to the outside world, it might seem that these three features (essentially the same three features repeated over three genres) are somehow "the most important" features because of the use of the word 'top' (which somehow refers to the option that there might be more). I agree that these three would makes many games a bit more accessible, but I think there are other features that are equally important and would also make many games a bit more accessible. I guess these three are mostly targeted towards the target group that you work with in real life (gamers with physical and learning impairments?) . For 'my' target group (the group that I worked with most - gamers with visual impairments) none of these 3 features make any difference accessibility-wise. Examples of "easy" accessibility features for them would include "color-blind accessibility" (no colour-communication OR provide alternatives to color-communication), "rescalable fonts", "customizable fonts", "customizable contrast", etc. Why wouldn't these not be in your list? They would make many games a little more accessible and are all very "easy"... ?

  But here's another thought about "easy"...

  Thing is, I have the feeling that there is no thing such as 'easy accessibility'. When I look at this top 3, your second feature ("Compatibility with Alternative Controllers") is not "easy" at all. It is a lot of work to make a game work with alternative controllers, especially when a certain controller has fewer control capacity than the controllable functions in the game. Your "easy" point 2 is actually my Keypoint 1 [1]. And to make my Keypoint 1 work, one cannot play without (my) Keypoint 2 (which is partially your point 1) AND (my) Keypoint 3 ("Interaction Techniques"). 
  My point: I think many accessibility features have consequences that also need to be dealt with. If you do not communicate this fact to developers, I think that's misleading.

  I think a list of accessibility features/requirements/design guidelines is good. I guess it is possible to rank each feature with a "easyness of implementation" (for instance, by looking at how much consequences a certain features has - providing a customizable font setting in Prince of Persia doesn't have as much design consequences as to control Prince of Persia with a single switch-controller).  I also think that once you do that, you get a different Top 3 than you present now.

  So...

  I think such "easy Top 3" lists are a good idea but should be presented slightly different - not as "The Top Of Them All". And when it concerns "easy", we have to be honest about how "easy" it really is. I think you are doing a great job and am glad with your initiative!!!

  Best regards,

  Richard


  [1] http://www2.hku.nl/~mosh/ga/gatheoryshort029.doc



    Anyway - I've also set-up a "Top 3 Accessibility Features" section for particular game genres: http://gameaccessibility.blogspot.com/search/label/Top%203

    Pinball, Golf, Driving games covered at present. I'd appreciate people's thoughts, and also on any suggestions of companies to contact once we have a basic consensus. I realise there's lots of things not covered - this is not the point - it's to try and get some of the simplest concepts with the lowest potential overheads to the people making games (indies, home coders, mainstream - anyone!).

    This stuff stands on the shoulders of everyone's work so far - so please don't think I'm claiming this as my baby. It's not. It's ours - so help us to make it useful... Perhaps we should get a standard e-mail drafted (with further links for more help as it stands presently - e.g. Eelke's design patterns - Game-Accessibility.com - our forum? our mailing list and so on....

    Enough from me today I think...

    Barrie
    www.OneSwitch.org.uk


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  games_access mailing list
  games_access at igda.org
  http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
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From ioo at ablegamers.com  Sun Dec  2 11:01:15 2007
From: ioo at ablegamers.com (Ioo)
Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2007 11:01:15 -0500
Subject: [games_access] Top 3 Top 3 and IGDA GASIG Awards Ceremony 2008
In-Reply-To: <003701c834d4$043173c0$0202a8c0@oneswitch>
References: <003701c834d4$043173c0$0202a8c0@oneswitch>
Message-ID: <4752D6CB.9030800@ablegamers.com>

Barrie,

 Despite what I have read to the contrary, way to go! I think the posts 
look great and I thank you and Reid for coming up with them.

 Your classifications and wording may not be perfect but it is far more 
information on the web today than there was yesterday about the subject. 
If others would like to add to list, or branch out and make some new 
area, I am sure there is room for that as well.

Barrie, Reid, in short, thank you for writing something that ablegamers 
(oh nice plug for my site) can read vs all those keystrokes on something 
that only eight of us read (I know there are more, but at this point I 
am sure that most people are deleting most of it).

The blog looks great! Keep up the good work...

Mark Barlet
Ioo - AbleGamers.com


Barrie Ellis wrote:
> Feeling guilty - I've tweaked the IGDA GASIG blog to feature a "Blog 
> Topics" area - which will be expanded later. I liked the look of the 
> awards area... and thought - this is obvious, but... Why don't we 
> start our own awards ceremony? It would be a bit of fun - and not too 
> much work to start with I recon.
>
> Why don't we start recognising the games that have got some good 
> accessibility features built in? We could keep nominations simple - 
> and awards being a nice e-mail from us to the winners - any other 
> interested press - and of course mention on our blog + site.
>
> Maybe:
>
> Best pointer based game (for head-tracker / eye-tracker / touch-screen 
> gamers).
> Best audio game.
> Best one switch game.
> Best use of closed captions / subtitling.
> IGDA GASIG historical award (great games from the past).
> IGDA GASIG special award.
> IGDA GASIG best of 2008.
>
> ??
>
> Anyway - I've also set-up a "Top 3 Accessibility Features" section for 
> particular game genres: 
> http://gameaccessibility.blogspot.com/search/label/Top%203
>
> Pinball, Golf, Driving games covered at present. I'd appreciate 
> people's thoughts, and also on any suggestions of companies to contact 
> once we have a basic consensus. I realise there's lots of things not 
> covered - this is not the point - it's to try and get some of the 
> simplest concepts with the lowest potential overheads to the people 
> making games (indies, home coders, mainstream - anyone!).
>
> This stuff stands on the shoulders of everyone's work so far - so 
> please don't think I'm claiming this as my baby. It's not. It's ours - 
> so help us to make it useful... Perhaps we should get a standard 
> e-mail drafted (with further links for more help as it stands 
> presently - e.g. Eelke's design patterns - Game-Accessibility.com - 
> our forum? our mailing list and so on....
>
> Enough from me today I think...
>
> Barrie
> www.OneSwitch.org.uk
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>


From barrie.ellis at oneswitch.org.uk  Sun Dec  2 12:38:08 2007
From: barrie.ellis at oneswitch.org.uk (Barrie Ellis)
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 17:38:08 -0000
Subject: [games_access] Top 3 Top 3 and IGDA GASIG Awards Ceremony 2008
References: <003701c834d4$043173c0$0202a8c0@oneswitch>
	<4752D6CB.9030800@ablegamers.com>
Message-ID: <002901c8350a$1a76d680$0202a8c0@oneswitch>

Thanks, Mark - much appreciated. Robert helped too, and as I said before - 
it's just another angle to approach game developers from. Listening to some 
of Richard's concerns, I've added a "this won't remove all barriers for all 
gamers" disclaimer which I think is right. I'll sit on it for a short while, 
but then if most people are content/silent, I'll draft up an e-mail, and see 
if we can't get people in the group to start contacting game developers. 
Some help to track down the best contacts (Super-Michelle?, others?) - would 
be much appreciated! I'm not the most up to date... but here's some basic 
thoughts:

Pinball games: System 3 (developers of recent Gottlieb and Williams pinball 
games) - Cunning Developments / Empire (Pro Pinball - which had some great 
features on Dreamcast - including highly reconfigurable controls that you 
could map for limited one-button play - and speed adjustment) - Not sure 
about others - maybe contact the PinMAME emulation people.

Golf games: Clap Hanz (the lovely Everybody's Golf - which could still do 
with some improvments), EA for Tiger Woods, Nintendo (Wii Sports), Super 
Swing Golf (?).

Driving games: loads...

Barrie
www.OneSwitch.org.uk




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ioo" <ioo at ablegamers.com>
To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 4:01 PM
Subject: Re: [games_access] Top 3 Top 3 and IGDA GASIG Awards Ceremony 2008


> Barrie,
>
> Despite what I have read to the contrary, way to go! I think the posts 
> look great and I thank you and Reid for coming up with them.
>
> Your classifications and wording may not be perfect but it is far more 
> information on the web today than there was yesterday about the subject. 
> If others would like to add to list, or branch out and make some new area, 
> I am sure there is room for that as well.
>
> Barrie, Reid, in short, thank you for writing something that ablegamers 
> (oh nice plug for my site) can read vs all those keystrokes on something 
> that only eight of us read (I know there are more, but at this point I am 
> sure that most people are deleting most of it).
>
> The blog looks great! Keep up the good work...
>
> Mark Barlet
> Ioo - AbleGamers.com
>
>
> Barrie Ellis wrote:
>> Feeling guilty - I've tweaked the IGDA GASIG blog to feature a "Blog 
>> Topics" area - which will be expanded later. I liked the look of the 
>> awards area... and thought - this is obvious, but... Why don't we start 
>> our own awards ceremony? It would be a bit of fun - and not too much work 
>> to start with I recon.
>>
>> Why don't we start recognising the games that have got some good 
>> accessibility features built in? We could keep nominations simple - and 
>> awards being a nice e-mail from us to the winners - any other interested 
>> press - and of course mention on our blog + site.
>>
>> Maybe:
>>
>> Best pointer based game (for head-tracker / eye-tracker / touch-screen 
>> gamers).
>> Best audio game.
>> Best one switch game.
>> Best use of closed captions / subtitling.
>> IGDA GASIG historical award (great games from the past).
>> IGDA GASIG special award.
>> IGDA GASIG best of 2008.
>>
>> ??
>>
>> Anyway - I've also set-up a "Top 3 Accessibility Features" section for 
>> particular game genres: 
>> http://gameaccessibility.blogspot.com/search/label/Top%203
>>
>> Pinball, Golf, Driving games covered at present. I'd appreciate people's 
>> thoughts, and also on any suggestions of companies to contact once we 
>> have a basic consensus. I realise there's lots of things not covered - 
>> this is not the point - it's to try and get some of the simplest concepts 
>> with the lowest potential overheads to the people making games (indies, 
>> home coders, mainstream - anyone!).
>>
>> This stuff stands on the shoulders of everyone's work so far - so please 
>> don't think I'm claiming this as my baby. It's not. It's ours - so help 
>> us to make it useful... Perhaps we should get a standard e-mail drafted 
>> (with further links for more help as it stands presently - e.g. Eelke's 
>> design patterns - Game-Accessibility.com - our forum? our mailing list 
>> and so on....
>>
>> Enough from me today I think...
>>
>> Barrie
>> www.OneSwitch.org.uk
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> games_access mailing list
>> games_access at igda.org
>> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access 





From hinn at uiuc.edu  Sun Dec  2 13:06:22 2007
From: hinn at uiuc.edu (d. michelle hinn)
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 12:06:22 -0600
Subject: [games_access] Top 3 Top 3 and IGDA GASIG Awards Ceremony 2008
In-Reply-To: <003701c834d4$043173c0$0202a8c0@oneswitch>
References: <003701c834d4$043173c0$0202a8c0@oneswitch>
Message-ID: <p06230909c378a33bf89d@[130.126.29.70]>

The awards is a great idea -- we can start it now without ceremony 
but with a press release. For GDC 09...This is what I'm talking to 
the head of CMP/GDC about -- adding in an accessibility award to the 
big GDC awards show. I'm also trying to get one for the Develop 
awards in the UK and the BAFTAs (I'm talking to them about this now). 
But there's no reason NOT to have award recognition from the SIG 
while I keep up the talks with the awards people for future 
"official" awards from game award shows.

If we have press release content I can draft up the official 
statement and then send it out to my contacts list -- one thing we I 
did get from e for all is a contact list that is amazingly large 
(thousands of press contacts) and then I've been collecting 
disability group and government contacts on my own. So the press 
machine is ready to go!

Michelle

>Feeling guilty - I've tweaked the IGDA GASIG blog to feature a "Blog 
>Topics" area - which will be expanded later. I liked the look of the 
>awards area... and thought - this is obvious, but... Why don't we 
>start our own awards ceremony? It would be a bit of fun - and not 
>too much work to start with I recon.
>
>Why don't we start recognising the games that have got some good 
>accessibility features built in? We could keep nominations simple - 
>and awards being a nice e-mail from us to the winners - any other 
>interested press - and of course mention on our blog + site.
>
>Maybe:
>
>Best pointer based game (for head-tracker / eye-tracker / 
>touch-screen gamers).
>Best audio game.
>Best one switch game.
>Best use of closed captions / subtitling.
>IGDA GASIG historical award (great games from the past).
>IGDA GASIG special award.
>IGDA GASIG best of 2008.
>
>??
>
>Anyway - I've also set-up a "Top 3 Accessibility Features" section 
>for particular game genres: 
>http://gameaccessibility.blogspot.com/search/label/Top%203
>
>Pinball, Golf, Driving games covered at present. I'd appreciate 
>people's thoughts, and also on any suggestions of companies to 
>contact once we have a basic consensus. I realise there's lots of 
>things not covered - this is not the point - it's to try and get 
>some of the simplest concepts with the lowest potential overheads to 
>the people making games (indies, home coders, mainstream - anyone!).
>
>This stuff stands on the shoulders of everyone's work so far - so 
>please don't think I'm claiming this as my baby. It's not. It's ours 
>- so help us to make it useful... Perhaps we should get a standard 
>e-mail drafted (with further links for more help as it stands 
>presently - e.g. Eelke's design patterns - Game-Accessibility.com - 
>our forum? our mailing list and so on....
>
>Enough from me today I think...
>
>Barrie
>www.OneSwitch.org.uk
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access



From hinn at uiuc.edu  Sun Dec  2 13:16:43 2007
From: hinn at uiuc.edu (d. michelle hinn)
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 12:16:43 -0600
Subject: [games_access] Top 3 Top 3 and IGDA GASIG Awards Ceremony 2008
In-Reply-To: <002901c8350a$1a76d680$0202a8c0@oneswitch>
References: <003701c834d4$043173c0$0202a8c0@oneswitch>
	<4752D6CB.9030800@ablegamers.com>
	<002901c8350a$1a76d680$0202a8c0@oneswitch>
Message-ID: <p0623090ac378a550757e@[130.126.29.70]>

Yep -- I have a giant list of people. The ECA (new consumer-oriented 
group) has also been great about getting me email contacts for people 
at companies. A friend of mine wrote me a special email program 
tweaked for what I wanted so that it doesn't go out as super-spam. So 
name the people/companies and I probably have their contact info or I 
can find out who has it!

I used my "PR program" first for E for All -- now it should work even 
better so we can send press releases just like the big companies. ;)

Michelle

>Thanks, Mark - much appreciated. Robert helped too, and as I said 
>before - it's just another angle to approach game developers from. 
>Listening to some of Richard's concerns, I've added a "this won't 
>remove all barriers for all gamers" disclaimer which I think is 
>right. I'll sit on it for a short while, but then if most people are 
>content/silent, I'll draft up an e-mail, and see if we can't get 
>people in the group to start contacting game developers. Some help 
>to track down the best contacts (Super-Michelle?, others?) - would 
>be much appreciated! I'm not the most up to date... but here's some 
>basic thoughts:
>
>Pinball games: System 3 (developers of recent Gottlieb and Williams 
>pinball games) - Cunning Developments / Empire (Pro Pinball - which 
>had some great features on Dreamcast - including highly 
>reconfigurable controls that you could map for limited one-button 
>play - and speed adjustment) - Not sure about others - maybe contact 
>the PinMAME emulation people.
>
>Golf games: Clap Hanz (the lovely Everybody's Golf - which could 
>still do with some improvments), EA for Tiger Woods, Nintendo (Wii 
>Sports), Super Swing Golf (?).
>
>Driving games: loads...
>
>Barrie
>www.OneSwitch.org.uk
>
>
>
>
>----- Original Message ----- From: "Ioo" <ioo at ablegamers.com>
>To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
>Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 4:01 PM
>Subject: Re: [games_access] Top 3 Top 3 and IGDA GASIG Awards Ceremony 2008
>
>>Barrie,
>>
>>Despite what I have read to the contrary, way to go! I think the 
>>posts look great and I thank you and Reid for coming up with them.
>>
>>Your classifications and wording may not be perfect but it is far 
>>more information on the web today than there was yesterday about 
>>the subject. If others would like to add to list, or branch out and 
>>make some new area, I am sure there is room for that as well.
>>
>>Barrie, Reid, in short, thank you for writing something that 
>>ablegamers (oh nice plug for my site) can read vs all those 
>>keystrokes on something that only eight of us read (I know there 
>>are more, but at this point I am sure that most people are deleting 
>>most of it).
>>
>>The blog looks great! Keep up the good work...
>>
>>Mark Barlet
>>Ioo - AbleGamers.com
>>
>>
>>Barrie Ellis wrote:
>>>Feeling guilty - I've tweaked the IGDA GASIG blog to feature a 
>>>"Blog Topics" area - which will be expanded later. I liked the 
>>>look of the awards area... and thought - this is obvious, but... 
>>>Why don't we start our own awards ceremony? It would be a bit of 
>>>fun - and not too much work to start with I recon.
>>>
>>>Why don't we start recognising the games that have got some good 
>>>accessibility features built in? We could keep nominations simple 
>>>- and awards being a nice e-mail from us to the winners - any 
>>>other interested press - and of course mention on our blog + site.
>>>
>>>Maybe:
>>>
>>>Best pointer based game (for head-tracker / eye-tracker / 
>>>touch-screen gamers).
>>>Best audio game.
>>>Best one switch game.
>>>Best use of closed captions / subtitling.
>>>IGDA GASIG historical award (great games from the past).
>>>IGDA GASIG special award.
>>>IGDA GASIG best of 2008.
>>>
>>>??
>>>
>>>Anyway - I've also set-up a "Top 3 Accessibility Features" section 
>>>for particular game genres: 
>>>http://gameaccessibility.blogspot.com/search/label/Top%203
>>>
>>>Pinball, Golf, Driving games covered at present. I'd appreciate 
>>>people's thoughts, and also on any suggestions of companies to 
>>>contact once we have a basic consensus. I realise there's lots of 
>>>things not covered - this is not the point - it's to try and get 
>>>some of the simplest concepts with the lowest potential overheads 
>>>to the people making games (indies, home coders, mainstream - 
>>>anyone!).
>>>
>>>This stuff stands on the shoulders of everyone's work so far - so 
>>>please don't think I'm claiming this as my baby. It's not. It's 
>>>ours - so help us to make it useful... Perhaps we should get a 
>>>standard e-mail drafted (with further links for more help as it 
>>>stands presently - e.g. Eelke's design patterns - 
>>>Game-Accessibility.com - our forum? our mailing list and so on....
>>>
>>>Enough from me today I think...
>>>
>>>Barrie
>>>www.OneSwitch.org.uk
>>>
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>games_access mailing list
>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>games_access mailing list
>>games_access at igda.org
>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access



From arthit73 at cablespeed.com  Sun Dec  2 14:41:36 2007
From: arthit73 at cablespeed.com (Robert Florio)
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 14:41:36 -0500
Subject: [games_access] Getting Federal government.  On our side.
In-Reply-To: AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIzkPCwA
References: <003701c834d4$043173c0$0202a8c0@oneswitch>
	AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIzkPCwA
Message-ID: <005401c8351b$59e1f9b0$6501a8c0@Inspiron>

I'm actually proposing how many of us want to and can help to send letters
to important people like senators, independent game developers, to get
petitions signed, and send it to some senators to get some kind of
nationwide talk on this and finally a regulated necessity standard?

I think it's a very good and noble thing to do.  Thinking of it in a way
that it's an industry that has ignored and does not have any future plans
for any big deals for accessibility for people.  Especially in the United
States is our Constitution write to have fair access to all forms of
entertainment.  To not allow people access to their product is
discrimination.

Again this is something I have proposed before nobody said they wanted to
work on it and I don't know why it seems like a great thing to do.  Stand up
for our rights that's what the government is there to help us to especially
in a billion-dollar industry making millions and millions but ignoring the
rest seems wrong.

Robert



From reid at rbkdesign.com  Sun Dec  2 15:07:57 2007
From: reid at rbkdesign.com (Reid Kimball)
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 12:07:57 -0800
Subject: [games_access] Top 3 Top 3 and IGDA GASIG Awards Ceremony 2008
In-Reply-To: <003701c834d4$043173c0$0202a8c0@oneswitch>
References: <003701c834d4$043173c0$0202a8c0@oneswitch>
Message-ID: <a6673b8d0712021207t4b35ae08xa3a3060959a02a4@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Barrie,

I like what you have but do have a couple suggestions.

1) I agree with Richard, there are no "easy" accessibility features
for developers to add. I have said that adding closed captioning to
games is easier than a physics or rendering system and it is true, but
creating the captioning system itself presents tricky design problems
and depending on the sound engine, maybe even technical issues. In
general, I don't think we have the right to designate whether an
accessibility feature is easy or not for a developer to implement. How
hard it is will depend on the developers technology foundation and
programming/designing talent they have.

2) On the contention of Top 3, why not slightly change the wording so
it's Top 3 Most Requested Accessibility Features.

3) Why don't we make a Top 3 Most Requested Accessibility Features for
each disability area. Richard can submit a list of his top 3 for
blind/visually impaired, I'll submit mine for hard of hearing/deaf and
so on.

-Reid

On Dec 2, 2007 3:10 AM, Barrie Ellis <barrie.ellis at oneswitch.org.uk> wrote:
> Feeling guilty - I've tweaked the IGDA GASIG blog to feature a "Blog Topics"
> area - which will be expanded later. I liked the look of the awards area...
> and thought - this is obvious, but... Why don't we start our own awards
> ceremony? It would be a bit of fun - and not too much work to start with I
> recon.
>
> Why don't we start recognising the games that have got some good
> accessibility features built in? We could keep nominations simple - and
> awards being a nice e-mail from us to the winners - any other interested
> press - and of course mention on our blog + site.
>
> Maybe:
>
> Best pointer based game (for head-tracker / eye-tracker / touch-screen
> gamers).
> Best audio game.
> Best one switch game.
> Best use of closed captions / subtitling.
> IGDA GASIG historical award (great games from the past).
> IGDA GASIG special award.
> IGDA GASIG best of 2008.
>
> ??
>
> Anyway - I've also set-up a "Top 3 Accessibility Features" section for
> particular game genres:
> http://gameaccessibility.blogspot.com/search/label/Top%203
>
> Pinball, Golf, Driving games covered at present. I'd appreciate people's
> thoughts, and also on any suggestions of companies to contact once we have a
> basic consensus. I realise there's lots of things not covered - this is not
> the point - it's to try and get some of the simplest concepts with the
> lowest potential overheads to the people making games (indies, home coders,
> mainstream - anyone!).
>
> This stuff stands on the shoulders of everyone's work so far - so please
> don't think I'm claiming this as my baby. It's not. It's ours - so help us
> to make it useful... Perhaps we should get a standard e-mail drafted (with
> further links for more help as it stands presently - e.g. Eelke's design
> patterns - Game-Accessibility.com - our forum? our mailing list and so
> on....
>
> Enough from me today I think...
>
> Barrie
> www.OneSwitch.org.uk
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>


From barrie.ellis at oneswitch.org.uk  Sun Dec  2 15:08:54 2007
From: barrie.ellis at oneswitch.org.uk (Barrie Ellis)
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 20:08:54 -0000
Subject: [games_access] Getting Federal government.  On our side.
References: <003701c834d4$043173c0$0202a8c0@oneswitch>AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIzkPCwA
	<005401c8351b$59e1f9b0$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
Message-ID: <001501c8351f$2a45b990$0202a8c0@oneswitch>

Robert, if you kick start it, and get it going - I'll support you and so 
will others. Why not
start by building an on-line petition - I'm sure there's more than just me
here that would be happy to proof read it and add suggestions before it goes 
live.

Take a look here:

http://www.petitiononline.com/
http://www.petitiononline.com/Captions/petition.html

I too don't know how successful this approach will be - but none of us will
know for sure unless it's tried.

At the very least, it can burble away in the background - building support
for us in numbers. Perhaps we could all point people in its direction if it
says things we are mostly happy with? I'd like it to be a bit more
international in scope, so I'd love to see an intro paragraph with links to
translated versions in other languages.

Go for it, Robert!

Barrie
www.OneSwitch.org.uk

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Robert Florio" <arthit73 at cablespeed.com>
To: "'IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List'" <games_access at igda.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 7:41 PM
Subject: Re: [games_access] Getting Federal government. On our side.


> I'm actually proposing how many of us want to and can help to send letters
> to important people like senators, independent game developers, to get
> petitions signed, and send it to some senators to get some kind of
> nationwide talk on this and finally a regulated necessity standard?
>
> I think it's a very good and noble thing to do.  Thinking of it in a way
> that it's an industry that has ignored and does not have any future plans
> for any big deals for accessibility for people.  Especially in the United
> States is our Constitution write to have fair access to all forms of
> entertainment.  To not allow people access to their product is
> discrimination.
>
> Again this is something I have proposed before nobody said they wanted to
> work on it and I don't know why it seems like a great thing to do.  Stand
> up
> for our rights that's what the government is there to help us to
> especially
> in a billion-dollar industry making millions and millions but ignoring the
> rest seems wrong.
>
> Robert
>
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access





From arthit73 at cablespeed.com  Sun Dec  2 15:24:55 2007
From: arthit73 at cablespeed.com (Robert Florio)
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 15:24:55 -0500
Subject: [games_access] Getting Federal government.  On our side.
In-Reply-To: AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIykPiwA
References: <003701c834d4$043173c0$0202a8c0@oneswitch>AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIzkPCwA<005401c8351b$59e1f9b0$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
	AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIykPiwA
Message-ID: <006401c83521$66e0a390$6501a8c0@Inspiron>

Hey Reid.  Thanks for those links that's just what we needed.  I will
definitely work on writing something.  I'm sure it will need many revisions
hopefully and I'll post it here in our mailing list to get it just right.

First I'd like to while doing this at the same time, reach out to a few
people in government see if they can give pointers in the language they're
looking for maybe they might even write it for us.

For the international touch I'm not so sure if we are going for a federal
response support here from the USA.  But I'm sure why not can it have
international implications to reach out to the same group but other places.

For example, parents approval rating system Hillary Clinton got into office,
that seems to be a huge thing for games to be able to be sold in the United
States but I don't think it implements other countries do they need the same
rating?  I don't know if you bought the same game in Germany or Italy or
outside of America it has that rating on it?

Maybe that doesn't improve their sales or maybe they put it anyway to give
their consumers of raw more options so if it gets implemented in the United
States and that kind of thing is already being put on the back for countries
that don't need it but helps for sales, to me that means it would be
excepted wherever they sell their product post it anyway.

Robert

-----Original Message-----
From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
On Behalf Of Barrie Ellis
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 3:09 PM
To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
Subject: Re: [games_access] Getting Federal government. On our side.

Robert, if you kick start it, and get it going - I'll support you and so 
will others. Why not
start by building an on-line petition - I'm sure there's more than just me
here that would be happy to proof read it and add suggestions before it goes

live.

Take a look here:

http://www.petitiononline.com/
http://www.petitiononline.com/Captions/petition.html

I too don't know how successful this approach will be - but none of us will
know for sure unless it's tried.

At the very least, it can burble away in the background - building support
for us in numbers. Perhaps we could all point people in its direction if it
says things we are mostly happy with? I'd like it to be a bit more
international in scope, so I'd love to see an intro paragraph with links to
translated versions in other languages.

Go for it, Robert!

Barrie
www.OneSwitch.org.uk

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Robert Florio" <arthit73 at cablespeed.com>
To: "'IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List'" <games_access at igda.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 7:41 PM
Subject: Re: [games_access] Getting Federal government. On our side.


> I'm actually proposing how many of us want to and can help to send letters
> to important people like senators, independent game developers, to get
> petitions signed, and send it to some senators to get some kind of
> nationwide talk on this and finally a regulated necessity standard?
>
> I think it's a very good and noble thing to do.  Thinking of it in a way
> that it's an industry that has ignored and does not have any future plans
> for any big deals for accessibility for people.  Especially in the United
> States is our Constitution write to have fair access to all forms of
> entertainment.  To not allow people access to their product is
> discrimination.
>
> Again this is something I have proposed before nobody said they wanted to
> work on it and I don't know why it seems like a great thing to do.  Stand
> up
> for our rights that's what the government is there to help us to
> especially
> in a billion-dollar industry making millions and millions but ignoring the
> rest seems wrong.
>
> Robert
>
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access



_______________________________________________
games_access mailing list
games_access at igda.org
http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access



From arthit73 at cablespeed.com  Sun Dec  2 15:26:05 2007
From: arthit73 at cablespeed.com (Robert Florio)
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 15:26:05 -0500
Subject: [games_access] Getting Federal government.  On our side.
In-Reply-To: AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIykPiwA
References: <003701c834d4$043173c0$0202a8c0@oneswitch>AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIzkPCwA<005401c8351b$59e1f9b0$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
	AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIykPiwA
Message-ID: <006501c83521$906c7900$6501a8c0@Inspiron>

Thanks for the support.  If it dwindles away at least we know we tried your
right we haven't tried this approach.  Petitions are always brought up tried
over and over again also.  I'm sure bills don't get past on their first
approach.

Robert

-----Original Message-----
From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
On Behalf Of Barrie Ellis
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 3:09 PM
To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
Subject: Re: [games_access] Getting Federal government. On our side.

Robert, if you kick start it, and get it going - I'll support you and so 
will others. Why not
start by building an on-line petition - I'm sure there's more than just me
here that would be happy to proof read it and add suggestions before it goes

live.

Take a look here:

http://www.petitiononline.com/
http://www.petitiononline.com/Captions/petition.html

I too don't know how successful this approach will be - but none of us will
know for sure unless it's tried.

At the very least, it can burble away in the background - building support
for us in numbers. Perhaps we could all point people in its direction if it
says things we are mostly happy with? I'd like it to be a bit more
international in scope, so I'd love to see an intro paragraph with links to
translated versions in other languages.

Go for it, Robert!

Barrie
www.OneSwitch.org.uk

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Robert Florio" <arthit73 at cablespeed.com>
To: "'IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List'" <games_access at igda.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 7:41 PM
Subject: Re: [games_access] Getting Federal government. On our side.


> I'm actually proposing how many of us want to and can help to send letters
> to important people like senators, independent game developers, to get
> petitions signed, and send it to some senators to get some kind of
> nationwide talk on this and finally a regulated necessity standard?
>
> I think it's a very good and noble thing to do.  Thinking of it in a way
> that it's an industry that has ignored and does not have any future plans
> for any big deals for accessibility for people.  Especially in the United
> States is our Constitution write to have fair access to all forms of
> entertainment.  To not allow people access to their product is
> discrimination.
>
> Again this is something I have proposed before nobody said they wanted to
> work on it and I don't know why it seems like a great thing to do.  Stand
> up
> for our rights that's what the government is there to help us to
> especially
> in a billion-dollar industry making millions and millions but ignoring the
> rest seems wrong.
>
> Robert
>
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access



_______________________________________________
games_access mailing list
games_access at igda.org
http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access



From barrie.ellis at oneswitch.org.uk  Sun Dec  2 15:46:26 2007
From: barrie.ellis at oneswitch.org.uk (Barrie Ellis)
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 20:46:26 -0000
Subject: [games_access] Top 3 Top 3 and IGDA GASIG Awards Ceremony 2008
Message-ID: <003f01c83524$693adfe0$0202a8c0@oneswitch>

Hi Reid,

Thanks for your suggestions. I appreciate the point that some access 
features are harder than they first seem to implement. But there definitely 
are easy to add features for specific genres. Quickly:

a. Driving games - imagine OutRun - adding wider difficulty level adjustment 
such as much more generous time limits to complete a stage is very easy.
b. Pinball games - allowing for adjustment in ball speed as a menu option 
seems pretty straight forward to me.
c. Golf games - allowing an Easy Play option whereby hook and slice can be 
turned off also sounds very easy to me.

Maybe the Extra Suggestions part is confusing the original message. These 
are intended to show some ways devleopers can stretch out and go a bit 
futher with that type of accessibility.

I wouldn't want us to scare off developers by saying there are no "easy" 
accessibility features for developers to add. I really don't believe it. If 
Atari could do it regularly for the Atari 2600 in the early 1980's...

2. If it's really that contentious, I'll change it - but "3 most requested" 
isn't bullet proof either.

3. Why don't we make a Top 3 Most Requested Accessibility Features for each 
disability area? Sounds like a good idea to me...

Barrie



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Reid Kimball" <reid at rbkdesign.com>
To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 8:07 PM
Subject: Re: [games_access] Top 3 Top 3 and IGDA GASIG Awards Ceremony 2008


> Hi Barrie,
>
> I like what you have but do have a couple suggestions.
>
> 1) I agree with Richard, there are no "easy" accessibility features
> for developers to add. I have said that adding closed captioning to
> games is easier than a physics or rendering system and it is true, but
> creating the captioning system itself presents tricky design problems
> and depending on the sound engine, maybe even technical issues. In
> general, I don't think we have the right to designate whether an
> accessibility feature is easy or not for a developer to implement. How
> hard it is will depend on the developers technology foundation and
> programming/designing talent they have.
>
> 2) On the contention of Top 3, why not slightly change the wording so
> it's Top 3 Most Requested Accessibility Features.
>
> 3) Why don't we make a Top 3 Most Requested Accessibility Features for
> each disability area. Richard can submit a list of his top 3 for
> blind/visually impaired, I'll submit mine for hard of hearing/deaf and
> so on.
>
> -Reid
-------------- next part --------------
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From reid at rbkdesign.com  Sun Dec  2 16:21:36 2007
From: reid at rbkdesign.com (Reid Kimball)
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 13:21:36 -0800
Subject: [games_access] Top 3 Top 3 and IGDA GASIG Awards Ceremony 2008
In-Reply-To: <003f01c83524$693adfe0$0202a8c0@oneswitch>
References: <003f01c83524$693adfe0$0202a8c0@oneswitch>
Message-ID: <a6673b8d0712021321y79eba5dfta8db9f5fc453f7ee@mail.gmail.com>

What if a game uses a physics engine? Slowing down the ball in a
physics based pinball game will make it unplayable. The ball won't
have enough momentum to carry it through the pinball obstacle course.
A solution could be slow motion play mode, but that also presents
other problems. Using slow motion can impact the timing of scripted
events and messages being sent and received by the internal game
systems.

Unless someone has direct involvement with the development of a game,
it's impossible to know what underlying technology issues have been
implemented that can make accessibility features easy or hard to
support. I once worked on a game that was made for consoles and then
ported to the PC. Because of how the controls were setup for the
console system, made it incredibly difficult to allow reconfigurable
controls for the PC. I hear of this technology issue constantly on
console games ported to the PC.

Game design and technology has evolved drastically from the early
1980's. We're now using simulation based physics and AI systems that
are open to influence by variables. Making games that use physics,
such as most sports games are, can be very difficult. Half-Life 2 is a
physics simulation based game is believe me, it's quite a head ache to
solve some gameplay issues. Slowing down vehicles will not create
enough velocity to create a strong enough force of impact to damage
enemies if you try to run over them or crash through a wall.

We're doing a disservice to game developers if we claim implementing
accessibility features are easy. It will harm our credibility and
damage trust in our working relationships.

-Reid

On Dec 2, 2007 12:46 PM, Barrie Ellis <barrie.ellis at oneswitch.org.uk> wrote:
>
> Hi Reid,
>
> Thanks for your suggestions. I appreciate the point that some access
> features are harder than they first seem to implement. But there definitely
> are easy to add features for specific genres. Quickly:
>
> a. Driving games - imagine OutRun - adding wider difficulty level adjustment
> such as much more generous time limits to complete a stage is very easy.
> b. Pinball games - allowing for adjustment in ball speed as a menu option
> seems pretty straight forward to me.
> c. Golf games - allowing an Easy Play option whereby hook and slice can be
> turned off also sounds very easy to me.
>
> Maybe the Extra Suggestions part is confusing the original message. These
> are intended to show some ways devleopers can stretch out and go a bit
> futher with that type of accessibility.
>
> I wouldn't want us to scare off developers by saying there are no "easy"
> accessibility features for developers to add. I really don't believe it. If
> Atari could do it regularly for the Atari 2600 in the early 1980's...
>
> 2. If it's really that contentious, I'll change it - but "3 most requested"
> isn't bullet proof either.
>
>
> 3. Why don't we make a Top 3 Most Requested Accessibility Features for each
> disability area? Sounds like a good idea to me...
>
> Barrie
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Reid Kimball" <reid at rbkdesign.com>
> To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
> Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 8:07 PM
> Subject: Re: [games_access] Top 3 Top 3 and IGDA GASIG Awards Ceremony 2008
>
>
> > Hi Barrie,
> >
> > I like what you have but do have a couple suggestions.
> >
> > 1) I agree with Richard, there are no "easy" accessibility features
> > for developers to add. I have said that adding closed captioning to
> > games is easier than a physics or rendering system and it is true, but
> > creating the captioning system itself presents tricky design problems
> > and depending on the sound engine, maybe even technical issues. In
> > general, I don't think we have the right to designate whether an
> > accessibility feature is easy or not for a developer to implement. How
> > hard it is will depend on the developers technology foundation and
> > programming/designing talent they have.
> >
> > 2) On the contention of Top 3, why not slightly change the wording so
> > it's Top 3 Most Requested Accessibility Features.
> >
> > 3) Why don't we make a Top 3 Most Requested Accessibility Features for
> > each disability area. Richard can submit a list of his top 3 for
> > blind/visually impaired, I'll submit mine for hard of hearing/deaf and
> > so on.
> >
> > -Reid
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>


From barrie.ellis at oneswitch.org.uk  Sun Dec  2 16:42:12 2007
From: barrie.ellis at oneswitch.org.uk (Barrie Ellis)
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 21:42:12 -0000
Subject: [games_access] Top 3 Top 3 and IGDA GASIG Awards Ceremony 2008
References: <003f01c83524$693adfe0$0202a8c0@oneswitch>
	<a6673b8d0712021321y79eba5dfta8db9f5fc453f7ee@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <006201c8352c$33120030$0202a8c0@oneswitch>

Hmm... Okay- point taken on the pinball side of things. Certainly I've seen
it done with Pro-Pinball Time Shock and it works pretty well. I also get the
strong sense that on a PC, if you turn frame skipping off, CPU Killer would
enable you to slow the game down. What ever the case, I'll rejig the text on
the blog.

Easy is quite subjective I guess. I'm hoping these are easy concepts to
grasp and are amongst the easier to implement. Implementation will be
tougher for some. You certainly have far more experience than me in game
development so I can only argue my case so far. Still think the other
examples hold. Thanks for your oppinion.

Barrie

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Reid Kimball" <reid at rbkdesign.com>
To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 9:21 PM
Subject: Re: [games_access] Top 3 Top 3 and IGDA GASIG Awards Ceremony 2008


> What if a game uses a physics engine? Slowing down the ball in a
> physics based pinball game will make it unplayable. The ball won't
> have enough momentum to carry it through the pinball obstacle course.
> A solution could be slow motion play mode, but that also presents
> other problems. Using slow motion can impact the timing of scripted
> events and messages being sent and received by the internal game
> systems.
>
> Unless someone has direct involvement with the development of a game,
> it's impossible to know what underlying technology issues have been
> implemented that can make accessibility features easy or hard to
> support. I once worked on a game that was made for consoles and then
> ported to the PC. Because of how the controls were setup for the
> console system, made it incredibly difficult to allow reconfigurable
> controls for the PC. I hear of this technology issue constantly on
> console games ported to the PC.
>
> Game design and technology has evolved drastically from the early
> 1980's. We're now using simulation based physics and AI systems that
> are open to influence by variables. Making games that use physics,
> such as most sports games are, can be very difficult. Half-Life 2 is a
> physics simulation based game is believe me, it's quite a head ache to
> solve some gameplay issues. Slowing down vehicles will not create
> enough velocity to create a strong enough force of impact to damage
> enemies if you try to run over them or crash through a wall.
>
> We're doing a disservice to game developers if we claim implementing
> accessibility features are easy. It will harm our credibility and
> damage trust in our working relationships.
>
> -Reid
>
> On Dec 2, 2007 12:46 PM, Barrie Ellis <barrie.ellis at oneswitch.org.uk>
> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Reid,
>>
>> Thanks for your suggestions. I appreciate the point that some access
>> features are harder than they first seem to implement. But there
>> definitely
>> are easy to add features for specific genres. Quickly:
>>
>> a. Driving games - imagine OutRun - adding wider difficulty level
>> adjustment
>> such as much more generous time limits to complete a stage is very easy.
>> b. Pinball games - allowing for adjustment in ball speed as a menu option
>> seems pretty straight forward to me.
>> c. Golf games - allowing an Easy Play option whereby hook and slice can
>> be
>> turned off also sounds very easy to me.
>>
>> Maybe the Extra Suggestions part is confusing the original message. These
>> are intended to show some ways devleopers can stretch out and go a bit
>> futher with that type of accessibility.
>>
>> I wouldn't want us to scare off developers by saying there are no "easy"
>> accessibility features for developers to add. I really don't believe it.
>> If
>> Atari could do it regularly for the Atari 2600 in the early 1980's...
>>
>> 2. If it's really that contentious, I'll change it - but "3 most
>> requested"
>> isn't bullet proof either.
>>
>>
>> 3. Why don't we make a Top 3 Most Requested Accessibility Features for
>> each
>> disability area? Sounds like a good idea to me...
>>
>> Barrie
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Reid Kimball" <reid at rbkdesign.com>
>> To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 8:07 PM
>> Subject: Re: [games_access] Top 3 Top 3 and IGDA GASIG Awards Ceremony
>> 2008
>>
>>
>> > Hi Barrie,
>> >
>> > I like what you have but do have a couple suggestions.
>> >
>> > 1) I agree with Richard, there are no "easy" accessibility features
>> > for developers to add. I have said that adding closed captioning to
>> > games is easier than a physics or rendering system and it is true, but
>> > creating the captioning system itself presents tricky design problems
>> > and depending on the sound engine, maybe even technical issues. In
>> > general, I don't think we have the right to designate whether an
>> > accessibility feature is easy or not for a developer to implement. How
>> > hard it is will depend on the developers technology foundation and
>> > programming/designing talent they have.
>> >
>> > 2) On the contention of Top 3, why not slightly change the wording so
>> > it's Top 3 Most Requested Accessibility Features.
>> >
>> > 3) Why don't we make a Top 3 Most Requested Accessibility Features for
>> > each disability area. Richard can submit a list of his top 3 for
>> > blind/visually impaired, I'll submit mine for hard of hearing/deaf and
>> > so on.
>> >
>> > -Reid
>> _______________________________________________
>> games_access mailing list
>> games_access at igda.org
>> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access





From arthit73 at cablespeed.com  Sun Dec  2 16:54:01 2007
From: arthit73 at cablespeed.com (Robert Florio)
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 16:54:01 -0500
Subject: [games_access] Getting Federal government.  On our side.
In-Reply-To: AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIxEPywA
References: <003701c834d4$043173c0$0202a8c0@oneswitch>AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIzkPCwA<005401c8351b$59e1f9b0$6501a8c0@Inspiron>AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIykPiwA
	AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIxEPywA
Message-ID: <006c01c8352d$d99302f0$6501a8c0@Inspiron>

Sorry I meant thank you Barrie.lol.
Robert

-----Original Message-----
From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
On Behalf Of Robert Florio
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 3:25 PM
To: 'IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [games_access] Getting Federal government. On our side.

Hey Reid.  Thanks for those links that's just what we needed.  I will
definitely work on writing something.  I'm sure it will need many revisions
hopefully and I'll post it here in our mailing list to get it just right.

First I'd like to while doing this at the same time, reach out to a few
people in government see if they can give pointers in the language they're
looking for maybe they might even write it for us.

For the international touch I'm not so sure if we are going for a federal
response support here from the USA.  But I'm sure why not can it have
international implications to reach out to the same group but other places.

For example, parents approval rating system Hillary Clinton got into office,
that seems to be a huge thing for games to be able to be sold in the United
States but I don't think it implements other countries do they need the same
rating?  I don't know if you bought the same game in Germany or Italy or
outside of America it has that rating on it?

Maybe that doesn't improve their sales or maybe they put it anyway to give
their consumers of raw more options so if it gets implemented in the United
States and that kind of thing is already being put on the back for countries
that don't need it but helps for sales, to me that means it would be
excepted wherever they sell their product post it anyway.

Robert

-----Original Message-----
From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
On Behalf Of Barrie Ellis
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 3:09 PM
To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
Subject: Re: [games_access] Getting Federal government. On our side.

Robert, if you kick start it, and get it going - I'll support you and so 
will others. Why not
start by building an on-line petition - I'm sure there's more than just me
here that would be happy to proof read it and add suggestions before it goes

live.

Take a look here:

http://www.petitiononline.com/
http://www.petitiononline.com/Captions/petition.html

I too don't know how successful this approach will be - but none of us will
know for sure unless it's tried.

At the very least, it can burble away in the background - building support
for us in numbers. Perhaps we could all point people in its direction if it
says things we are mostly happy with? I'd like it to be a bit more
international in scope, so I'd love to see an intro paragraph with links to
translated versions in other languages.

Go for it, Robert!

Barrie
www.OneSwitch.org.uk

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Robert Florio" <arthit73 at cablespeed.com>
To: "'IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List'" <games_access at igda.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 7:41 PM
Subject: Re: [games_access] Getting Federal government. On our side.


> I'm actually proposing how many of us want to and can help to send letters
> to important people like senators, independent game developers, to get
> petitions signed, and send it to some senators to get some kind of
> nationwide talk on this and finally a regulated necessity standard?
>
> I think it's a very good and noble thing to do.  Thinking of it in a way
> that it's an industry that has ignored and does not have any future plans
> for any big deals for accessibility for people.  Especially in the United
> States is our Constitution write to have fair access to all forms of
> entertainment.  To not allow people access to their product is
> discrimination.
>
> Again this is something I have proposed before nobody said they wanted to
> work on it and I don't know why it seems like a great thing to do.  Stand
> up
> for our rights that's what the government is there to help us to
> especially
> in a billion-dollar industry making millions and millions but ignoring the
> rest seems wrong.
>
> Robert
>
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access



_______________________________________________
games_access mailing list
games_access at igda.org
http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access

_______________________________________________
games_access mailing list
games_access at igda.org
http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access



From richard at audiogames.net  Sun Dec  2 17:47:52 2007
From: richard at audiogames.net (AudioGames.net)
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 23:47:52 +0100
Subject: [games_access] Top 3 Top 3 and IGDA GASIG Awards Ceremony 2008
References: <003f01c83524$693adfe0$0202a8c0@oneswitch>
Message-ID: <008e01c83535$5f93ce00$6402a8c0@Delletje>

Hi,

*quote*
I wouldn't want us to scare off developers by saying there are no "easy" accessibility features for developers to add. 
*quote end*

I think the point is not mentioning the difficulty at all :) It is as Reid said, the difficulty is different for each game. 

Concerning the "Top 3 Most Requested Accessibility Features for each disability area": I agree with Barrie that "requested" can also be dubious. I think what we're trying to achieve here is to describe a list of "very-easy-to-understand-and-good-to-start-with [1] accessibility features that can be applied to a large number of games in order to make them more accessible". At least, that's how I interpret Barrie's blog-posting. Please correct me if otherwise ;) But if this is the case, than why not try to describe them with a simple line of text that carries this message of 'easy' 'start with' 'list' and 'features'.
Something like: "The Game Accessibility Features List For Beginners" ... :?
Also, if this is what we're trying to achieve here, than I would not go for seperate lists for each disability group. Actually, I do think it is wise to look at which features serve which group, but for the type of feature list we're talking here, I guess it would be better to try and serve all groups in one go (hate to bring W3C up, but somewhat similar to the W3C Priority 1 Guidelines ;)  
And I think we can. Have a look at this:


(if it doesn't get through to the list, see: http://www2.hku.nl/~mosh/ga/GAcriticalpat0005.jpg )

This is an illutration of how I think my 10 key points serve which of the four target groups. It's only a sketch and I probably could have better used a simple table but I got carried away in Photoshop ;). To explain what you see: I think that the first 6 key points and keypoint 10 are the ones that make games accessible for gamers with physical impairments (the magenta blocks). I think that keypoint 4 to 8 and 10 are the ones that make games accessible for gamers with learning impairments (the grey blocks). And the blue blocks show that keypoints 4 to 10. My interpretation may not be very accurate [2] but it's a start. For those who missed it, see http://www2.hku.nl/~mosh/ga/gatheoryshort029.doc for the descriptions of the key points so far. In short, key point 1,2 and 3 are about letting the player CONTROL the game (which is mostly the problem with physical impaired gamers). Key point 4, 5 and 6 concern features that allow the player to PLAY the game (which concerns all gamers with impairments). Key points 7,8 and 9 are about letting the player PERCEIVE the game (which is mostly the problem with visual and hearing impairments).

The reason I show this is that if this is correct, it means that there are 4 key points that serve ALL target groups. So for a "The Game Accessibility Features List For Beginners" (if that is what we're talking about here), we might need to search for design features that fit these four key points. If we would, than I would suggest leaving out keypoint 6 (experience compensation) because that one is still under construction and still needs a good definition, and maybe also key point 10, because that discusses "out-of-game"-features (which are important too but maybe are less important to start with). This leaves design features found in key point 4 (adjustable gameplay options) and 5 (assistance). Interestingly, these are key points that are not about CONTROLLING or PERCEIVING the game, but about PLAYING [3] the game.

In my document I mention about 6 or 7 features here such as: adjustable difficulty level, adjustabel speed [4], pass functionality, tutorial agent - to name a few. So maybe this is a good starting point for looking for features?

One thing... after typing this all, I did find a small flaw in my own story (blush). Not that my story now is worthless, but I do want to share this: I am of the opinion that game accessibility features of the different keypoints work together to create accessible functionality. So keypoint 1 is pretty much useless unless you add keypoint 2 and 3. Not in all cases, but still most of the time. This also means that a certain feature found in key point 4 might only make a game accessible when combined with another feature, either from the same key point or a different one. So looking at my illustration and saying "here's the overlap so let's start there" might result in a list of features that are useless because they depend on other features. I do think that mostly features from key points 1,2 and 3 and 7,8 and 9 depend on each other, and that features of 4,5 and 6 (and 10) are less related to each other [5]. So when picking features, we might need to consider the dependence on other features too.

Which maybe turns into a slightly new concept of the "The Game Accessibility Features List For Beginners" : "A List Of Independend Game Accessibility Features List For Beginners" ;)

Greets,

Richard


[1] 'accessible game accessibility features' ? grin ;)
[2] For example, I can imagine that #2 and #3 might be able to make games more accessible for learning impaired gamers as well, for instance by creating a control scheme that can be memorized better ;) In the end, I think we can agree that accessibility can serve all, and also improve the game experience even for those without impairments. But that is not the point of this illustration. 
[3] my personal definition of game accessibility revolves around these three goals: game accessibility is about making it possible that everyine can control, perceive and play games.
[4]  Just read Reids post about physics and Pinball games and he definitely has a point. I've read some stuff about LucasArts' upcoming Indiana Jones game where (rag doll) physics are an extremely important aspect of gameplay and I can already imagine some of the problems with adjusting speed.
[5] Which actually is another argument to start looking for features in these key points ;)


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Barrie Ellis 
  To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List 
  Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 9:46 PM
  Subject: Re: [games_access] Top 3 Top 3 and IGDA GASIG Awards Ceremony 2008


  Hi Reid,

  Thanks for your suggestions. I appreciate the point that some access 
  features are harder than they first seem to implement. But there definitely 
  are easy to add features for specific genres. Quickly:

  a. Driving games - imagine OutRun - adding wider difficulty level adjustment 
  such as much more generous time limits to complete a stage is very easy.
  b. Pinball games - allowing for adjustment in ball speed as a menu option 
  seems pretty straight forward to me.
  c. Golf games - allowing an Easy Play option whereby hook and slice can be 
  turned off also sounds very easy to me.

  Maybe the Extra Suggestions part is confusing the original message. These 
  are intended to show some ways devleopers can stretch out and go a bit 
  futher with that type of accessibility.

  I wouldn't want us to scare off developers by saying there are no "easy" 
  accessibility features for developers to add. I really don't believe it. If 
  Atari could do it regularly for the Atari 2600 in the early 1980's...

  2. If it's really that contentious, I'll change it - but "3 most requested" 
  isn't bullet proof either.

  3. Why don't we make a Top 3 Most Requested Accessibility Features for each 
  disability area? Sounds like a good idea to me...

  Barrie



  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: "Reid Kimball" <reid at rbkdesign.com>
  To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
  Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 8:07 PM
  Subject: Re: [games_access] Top 3 Top 3 and IGDA GASIG Awards Ceremony 2008


  > Hi Barrie,
  >
  > I like what you have but do have a couple suggestions.
  >
  > 1) I agree with Richard, there are no "easy" accessibility features
  > for developers to add. I have said that adding closed captioning to
  > games is easier than a physics or rendering system and it is true, but
  > creating the captioning system itself presents tricky design problems
  > and depending on the sound engine, maybe even technical issues. In
  > general, I don't think we have the right to designate whether an
  > accessibility feature is easy or not for a developer to implement. How
  > hard it is will depend on the developers technology foundation and
  > programming/designing talent they have.
  >
  > 2) On the contention of Top 3, why not slightly change the wording so
  > it's Top 3 Most Requested Accessibility Features.
  >
  > 3) Why don't we make a Top 3 Most Requested Accessibility Features for
  > each disability area. Richard can submit a list of his top 3 for
  > blind/visually impaired, I'll submit mine for hard of hearing/deaf and
  > so on.
  >
  > -Reid 


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  games_access mailing list
  games_access at igda.org
  http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
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From richard at audiogames.net  Sun Dec  2 18:03:08 2007
From: richard at audiogames.net (AudioGames.net)
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 00:03:08 +0100
Subject: [games_access] Top 3 Top 3 and IGDA GASIG Awards Ceremony 2008
References: <003f01c83524$693adfe0$0202a8c0@oneswitch>
	<008e01c83535$5f93ce00$6402a8c0@Delletje>
Message-ID: <00c501c83537$812a3700$6402a8c0@Delletje>

(updated pic): http://www2.hku.nl/~mosh/ga/GAcriticalpat0006.jpg

... notice the symmetrics?

btw: I think I will drop Hollistic Game Accessibility from this Key point set up. My argument: the first 9 key points discuss how to make a GAME accessibile. Key point 10 discusses "things" (websites, packages, etc.) around the game that need to be accessible. But in order to MAKE these accessible, you can (in theory) use (a setup similar to) key point 1 to 9 ;)

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: AudioGames.net 
  To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List 
  Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 11:47 PM
  Subject: Re: [games_access] Top 3 Top 3 and IGDA GASIG Awards Ceremony 2008


  Hi,

  *quote*
  I wouldn't want us to scare off developers by saying there are no "easy" accessibility features for developers to add. 
  *quote end*

  I think the point is not mentioning the difficulty at all :) It is as Reid said, the difficulty is different for each game. 

  Concerning the "Top 3 Most Requested Accessibility Features for each disability area": I agree with Barrie that "requested" can also be dubious. I think what we're trying to achieve here is to describe a list of "very-easy-to-understand-and-good-to-start-with [1] accessibility features that can be applied to a large number of games in order to make them more accessible". At least, that's how I interpret Barrie's blog-posting. Please correct me if otherwise ;) But if this is the case, than why not try to describe them with a simple line of text that carries this message of 'easy' 'start with' 'list' and 'features'.
  Something like: "The Game Accessibility Features List For Beginners" ... :?
  Also, if this is what we're trying to achieve here, than I would not go for seperate lists for each disability group. Actually, I do think it is wise to look at which features serve which group, but for the type of feature list we're talking here, I guess it would be better to try and serve all groups in one go (hate to bring W3C up, but somewhat similar to the W3C Priority 1 Guidelines ;)  
  And I think we can. Have a look at this:


  (if it doesn't get through to the list, see: http://www2.hku.nl/~mosh/ga/GAcriticalpat0005.jpg )

  This is an illutration of how I think my 10 key points serve which of the four target groups. It's only a sketch and I probably could have better used a simple table but I got carried away in Photoshop ;). To explain what you see: I think that the first 6 key points and keypoint 10 are the ones that make games accessible for gamers with physical impairments (the magenta blocks). I think that keypoint 4 to 8 and 10 are the ones that make games accessible for gamers with learning impairments (the grey blocks). And the blue blocks show that keypoints 4 to 10. My interpretation may not be very accurate [2] but it's a start. For those who missed it, see http://www2.hku.nl/~mosh/ga/gatheoryshort029.doc for the descriptions of the key points so far. In short, key point 1,2 and 3 are about letting the player CONTROL the game (which is mostly the problem with physical impaired gamers). Key point 4, 5 and 6 concern features that allow the player to PLAY the game (which concerns all gamers with impairments). Key points 7,8 and 9 are about letting the player PERCEIVE the game (which is mostly the problem with visual and hearing impairments).

  The reason I show this is that if this is correct, it means that there are 4 key points that serve ALL target groups. So for a "The Game Accessibility Features List For Beginners" (if that is what we're talking about here), we might need to search for design features that fit these four key points. If we would, than I would suggest leaving out keypoint 6 (experience compensation) because that one is still under construction and still needs a good definition, and maybe also key point 10, because that discusses "out-of-game"-features (which are important too but maybe are less important to start with). This leaves design features found in key point 4 (adjustable gameplay options) and 5 (assistance). Interestingly, these are key points that are not about CONTROLLING or PERCEIVING the game, but about PLAYING [3] the game.

  In my document I mention about 6 or 7 features here such as: adjustable difficulty level, adjustabel speed [4], pass functionality, tutorial agent - to name a few. So maybe this is a good starting point for looking for features?

  One thing... after typing this all, I did find a small flaw in my own story (blush). Not that my story now is worthless, but I do want to share this: I am of the opinion that game accessibility features of the different keypoints work together to create accessible functionality. So keypoint 1 is pretty much useless unless you add keypoint 2 and 3. Not in all cases, but still most of the time. This also means that a certain feature found in key point 4 might only make a game accessible when combined with another feature, either from the same key point or a different one. So looking at my illustration and saying "here's the overlap so let's start there" might result in a list of features that are useless because they depend on other features. I do think that mostly features from key points 1,2 and 3 and 7,8 and 9 depend on each other, and that features of 4,5 and 6 (and 10) are less related to each other [5]. So when picking features, we might need to consider the dependence on other features too.

  Which maybe turns into a slightly new concept of the "The Game Accessibility Features List For Beginners" : "A List Of Independend Game Accessibility Features List For Beginners" ;)

  Greets,

  Richard


  [1] 'accessible game accessibility features' ? grin ;)
  [2] For example, I can imagine that #2 and #3 might be able to make games more accessible for learning impaired gamers as well, for instance by creating a control scheme that can be memorized better ;) In the end, I think we can agree that accessibility can serve all, and also improve the game experience even for those without impairments. But that is not the point of this illustration. 
  [3] my personal definition of game accessibility revolves around these three goals: game accessibility is about making it possible that everyine can control, perceive and play games.
  [4]  Just read Reids post about physics and Pinball games and he definitely has a point. I've read some stuff about LucasArts' upcoming Indiana Jones game where (rag doll) physics are an extremely important aspect of gameplay and I can already imagine some of the problems with adjusting speed.
  [5] Which actually is another argument to start looking for features in these key points ;)
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From agdev at thechases.com  Sun Dec  2 18:05:52 2007
From: agdev at thechases.com (Tim Chase)
Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2007 17:05:52 -0600
Subject: [games_access] Top 3 Top 3
In-Reply-To: <a6673b8d0712021321y79eba5dfta8db9f5fc453f7ee@mail.gmail.com>
References: <003f01c83524$693adfe0$0202a8c0@oneswitch>
	<a6673b8d0712021321y79eba5dfta8db9f5fc453f7ee@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47533A50.4010201@thechases.com>

> What if a game uses a physics engine? Slowing down the ball in a
> physics based pinball game will make it unplayable. The ball won't
> have enough momentum to carry it through the pinball obstacle course.
> A solution could be slow motion play mode, but that also presents
> other problems. Using slow motion can impact the timing of scripted
> events and messages being sent and received by the internal game
> systems.

In physics-based simulations, "time" is a constant only to the
degree that it's a variable that's only been set once (or is
established as a fixed harmonic of your system-clock).  One only
has to look to games such as _Prince Of Persia:  Sands of Time_,
and the Max Payne games where time-manipulation is part of the
game-play.  Granted, bunging with time in a multi-player game is
a certain road to a flop; but in a single-player game, changing
the rate of time to allow "slow motion" is doable.

-tim




From hinn at uiuc.edu  Sun Dec  2 19:34:00 2007
From: hinn at uiuc.edu (d. michelle hinn)
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 18:34:00 -0600
Subject: [games_access] Getting Federal government.  On our side.
In-Reply-To: <001501c8351f$2a45b990$0202a8c0@oneswitch>
References: <003701c834d4$043173c0$0202a8c0@oneswitch>AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIzkPCwA
	<005401c8351b$59e1f9b0$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
	<001501c8351f$2a45b990$0202a8c0@oneswitch>
Message-ID: <p0623090bc378fe344add@[130.126.29.70]>

I have all the US Senate/House/Governors email addresses so if you 
start it and others can help edit, I can send out a press release.

We can start by raising the issue with the US government because I 
have those addresses but as Barrie suggested -- why limit this to 
just the US?

I'm not sure how successful it will be but we haven't tried it and 
with the right tone it's worth a shot -- if anything it never hurts 
to remind the US government who often tries to outlaw gaming after 
this and that happens that games are important and not all bad. I'm 
always happy to contribute to that approach!

Michelle

>Robert, if you kick start it, and get it going - I'll support you 
>and so will others. Why not
>start by building an on-line petition - I'm sure there's more than just me
>here that would be happy to proof read it and add suggestions before 
>it goes live.
>
>Take a look here:
>
>http://www.petitiononline.com/
>http://www.petitiononline.com/Captions/petition.html
>
>I too don't know how successful this approach will be - but none of us will
>know for sure unless it's tried.
>
>At the very least, it can burble away in the background - building support
>for us in numbers. Perhaps we could all point people in its direction if it
>says things we are mostly happy with? I'd like it to be a bit more
>international in scope, so I'd love to see an intro paragraph with links to
>translated versions in other languages.
>
>Go for it, Robert!
>
>Barrie
>www.OneSwitch.org.uk
>
>----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Florio" <arthit73 at cablespeed.com>
>To: "'IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List'" <games_access at igda.org>
>Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 7:41 PM
>Subject: Re: [games_access] Getting Federal government. On our side.
>
>>I'm actually proposing how many of us want to and can help to send letters
>>to important people like senators, independent game developers, to get
>>petitions signed, and send it to some senators to get some kind of
>>nationwide talk on this and finally a regulated necessity standard?
>>
>>I think it's a very good and noble thing to do.  Thinking of it in a way
>>that it's an industry that has ignored and does not have any future plans
>>for any big deals for accessibility for people.  Especially in the United
>>States is our Constitution write to have fair access to all forms of
>>entertainment.  To not allow people access to their product is
>>discrimination.
>>
>>Again this is something I have proposed before nobody said they wanted to
>>work on it and I don't know why it seems like a great thing to do.  Stand
>>up
>>for our rights that's what the government is there to help us to
>>especially
>>in a billion-dollar industry making millions and millions but ignoring the
>>rest seems wrong.
>>
>>Robert
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>games_access mailing list
>>games_access at igda.org
>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access



From arthit73 at cablespeed.com  Sun Dec  2 19:39:07 2007
From: arthit73 at cablespeed.com (Robert Florio)
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 19:39:07 -0500
Subject: [games_access] Getting Federal government.  On our side.
In-Reply-To: AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIykQSwA
References: <003701c834d4$043173c0$0202a8c0@oneswitch>AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIzkPCwA<005401c8351b$59e1f9b0$6501a8c0@Inspiron><001501c8351f$2a45b990$0202a8c0@oneswitch>
	AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIykQSwA
Message-ID: <008201c83544$ea1a75b0$6501a8c0@Inspiron>

Sounds great.  I'm just not sure how to tie it in a broad?  How would that
work?  I was suggesting that if it worked here it would become something
marketable that other countries with one the same stamp of approval.

My thoughts would be if it was made into some kind of legislation who makes
up the ideas for ranking if it becomes accepted?

I think the best thing is to put together the petition that I will
definitely start writing.  And then if we get any important representatives
responding they can let us know what they think the best solution would be.

Ultimately I think it should be something we can make money from instead of
giving away all our ideas.  So I'm sure there will be guidelines written up
basic ones may be but then after that someone needs to regulate it.

Kind of like what Hillary Clinton set up with the MSRP people.  And as they
might already have a branch or suggest a private branch which would be
better.  Maybe they would find it and give us a place to locate.  One of the
best persuasive points to put in the petition would be for the injured
soldiers.

Robert

-----Original Message-----
From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
On Behalf Of d. michelle hinn
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 7:34 PM
To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
Subject: Re: [games_access] Getting Federal government. On our side.

I have all the US Senate/House/Governors email addresses so if you 
start it and others can help edit, I can send out a press release.

We can start by raising the issue with the US government because I 
have those addresses but as Barrie suggested -- why limit this to 
just the US?

I'm not sure how successful it will be but we haven't tried it and 
with the right tone it's worth a shot -- if anything it never hurts 
to remind the US government who often tries to outlaw gaming after 
this and that happens that games are important and not all bad. I'm 
always happy to contribute to that approach!

Michelle

>Robert, if you kick start it, and get it going - I'll support you 
>and so will others. Why not
>start by building an on-line petition - I'm sure there's more than just me
>here that would be happy to proof read it and add suggestions before 
>it goes live.
>
>Take a look here:
>
>http://www.petitiononline.com/
>http://www.petitiononline.com/Captions/petition.html
>
>I too don't know how successful this approach will be - but none of us will
>know for sure unless it's tried.
>
>At the very least, it can burble away in the background - building support
>for us in numbers. Perhaps we could all point people in its direction if it
>says things we are mostly happy with? I'd like it to be a bit more
>international in scope, so I'd love to see an intro paragraph with links to
>translated versions in other languages.
>
>Go for it, Robert!
>
>Barrie
>www.OneSwitch.org.uk
>
>----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Florio"
<arthit73 at cablespeed.com>
>To: "'IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List'" <games_access at igda.org>
>Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 7:41 PM
>Subject: Re: [games_access] Getting Federal government. On our side.
>
>>I'm actually proposing how many of us want to and can help to send letters
>>to important people like senators, independent game developers, to get
>>petitions signed, and send it to some senators to get some kind of
>>nationwide talk on this and finally a regulated necessity standard?
>>
>>I think it's a very good and noble thing to do.  Thinking of it in a way
>>that it's an industry that has ignored and does not have any future plans
>>for any big deals for accessibility for people.  Especially in the United
>>States is our Constitution write to have fair access to all forms of
>>entertainment.  To not allow people access to their product is
>>discrimination.
>>
>>Again this is something I have proposed before nobody said they wanted to
>>work on it and I don't know why it seems like a great thing to do.  Stand
>>up
>>for our rights that's what the government is there to help us to
>>especially
>>in a billion-dollar industry making millions and millions but ignoring the
>>rest seems wrong.
>>
>>Robert
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>games_access mailing list
>>games_access at igda.org
>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access

_______________________________________________
games_access mailing list
games_access at igda.org
http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access



From richard at audiogames.net  Sun Dec  2 17:57:55 2007
From: richard at audiogames.net (AudioGames.net)
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 23:57:55 +0100
Subject: [games_access] Top 3 Top 3 and IGDA GASIG Awards Ceremony 2008
References: <003f01c83524$693adfe0$0202a8c0@oneswitch>
	<008e01c83535$5f93ce00$6402a8c0@Delletje>
Message-ID: <00ad01c83536$c6c51510$6402a8c0@Delletje>

(updated pic): http://www2.hku.nl/~mosh/ga/GAcriticalpat0006.jpg

... notice the symmetrics?

btw: I think I will drop Hollistic Game Accessibility from this Key point set up. My argument: the first 9 key points discuss how to make a GAME accessibile. Key point 10 discusses "things" (websites, packages, etc.) around the game that need to be accessible. But in order to MAKE these accessible, you can (in theory) use (a setup similar to) key point 1 to 9 ;)

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: AudioGames.net 
  To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List 
  Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 11:47 PM
  Subject: Re: [games_access] Top 3 Top 3 and IGDA GASIG Awards Ceremony 2008


  Hi,

  *quote*
  I wouldn't want us to scare off developers by saying there are no "easy" accessibility features for developers to add. 
  *quote end*

  I think the point is not mentioning the difficulty at all :) It is as Reid said, the difficulty is different for each game. 

  Concerning the "Top 3 Most Requested Accessibility Features for each disability area": I agree with Barrie that "requested" can also be dubious. I think what we're trying to achieve here is to describe a list of "very-easy-to-understand-and-good-to-start-with [1] accessibility features that can be applied to a large number of games in order to make them more accessible". At least, that's how I interpret Barrie's blog-posting. Please correct me if otherwise ;) But if this is the case, than why not try to describe them with a simple line of text that carries this message of 'easy' 'start with' 'list' and 'features'.
  Something like: "The Game Accessibility Features List For Beginners" ... :?
  Also, if this is what we're trying to achieve here, than I would not go for seperate lists for each disability group. Actually, I do think it is wise to look at which features serve which group, but for the type of feature list we're talking here, I guess it would be better to try and serve all groups in one go (hate to bring W3C up, but somewhat similar to the W3C Priority 1 Guidelines ;)  
  And I think we can. Have a look at this:


  (if it doesn't get through to the list, see: http://www2.hku.nl/~mosh/ga/GAcriticalpat0005.jpg )

  This is an illutration of how I think my 10 key points serve which of the four target groups. It's only a sketch and I probably could have better used a simple table but I got carried away in Photoshop ;). To explain what you see: I think that the first 6 key points and keypoint 10 are the ones that make games accessible for gamers with physical impairments (the magenta blocks). I think that keypoint 4 to 8 and 10 are the ones that make games accessible for gamers with learning impairments (the grey blocks). And the blue blocks show that keypoints 4 to 10. My interpretation may not be very accurate [2] but it's a start. For those who missed it, see http://www2.hku.nl/~mosh/ga/gatheoryshort029.doc for the descriptions of the key points so far. In short, key point 1,2 and 3 are about letting the player CONTROL the game (which is mostly the problem with physical impaired gamers). Key point 4, 5 and 6 concern features that allow the player to PLAY the game (which concerns all gamers with impairments). Key points 7,8 and 9 are about letting the player PERCEIVE the game (which is mostly the problem with visual and hearing impairments).

  The reason I show this is that if this is correct, it means that there are 4 key points that serve ALL target groups. So for a "The Game Accessibility Features List For Beginners" (if that is what we're talking about here), we might need to search for design features that fit these four key points. If we would, than I would suggest leaving out keypoint 6 (experience compensation) because that one is still under construction and still needs a good definition, and maybe also key point 10, because that discusses "out-of-game"-features (which are important too but maybe are less important to start with). This leaves design features found in key point 4 (adjustable gameplay options) and 5 (assistance). Interestingly, these are key points that are not about CONTROLLING or PERCEIVING the game, but about PLAYING [3] the game.

  In my document I mention about 6 or 7 features here such as: adjustable difficulty level, adjustabel speed [4], pass functionality, tutorial agent - to name a few. So maybe this is a good starting point for looking for features?

  One thing... after typing this all, I did find a small flaw in my own story (blush). Not that my story now is worthless, but I do want to share this: I am of the opinion that game accessibility features of the different keypoints work together to create accessible functionality. So keypoint 1 is pretty much useless unless you add keypoint 2 and 3. Not in all cases, but still most of the time. This also means that a certain feature found in key point 4 might only make a game accessible when combined with another feature, either from the same key point or a different one. So looking at my illustration and saying "here's the overlap so let's start there" might result in a list of features that are useless because they depend on other features. I do think that mostly features from key points 1,2 and 3 and 7,8 and 9 depend on each other, and that features of 4,5 and 6 (and 10) are less related to each other [5]. So when picking features, we might need to consider the dependence on other features too.

  Which maybe turns into a slightly new concept of the "The Game Accessibility Features List For Beginners" : "A List Of Independend Game Accessibility Features List For Beginners" ;)

  Greets,

  Richard


  [1] 'accessible game accessibility features' ? grin ;)
  [2] For example, I can imagine that #2 and #3 might be able to make games more accessible for learning impaired gamers as well, for instance by creating a control scheme that can be memorized better ;) In the end, I think we can agree that accessibility can serve all, and also improve the game experience even for those without impairments. But that is not the point of this illustration. 
  [3] my personal definition of game accessibility revolves around these three goals: game accessibility is about making it possible that everyine can control, perceive and play games.
  [4]  Just read Reids post about physics and Pinball games and he definitely has a point. I've read some stuff about LucasArts' upcoming Indiana Jones game where (rag doll) physics are an extremely important aspect of gameplay and I can already imagine some of the problems with adjusting speed.
  [5] Which actually is another argument to start looking for features in these key points ;)


    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Barrie Ellis 
    To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List 
    Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 9:46 PM
    Subject: Re: [games_access] Top 3 Top 3 and IGDA GASIG Awards Ceremony 2008


    Hi Reid,

    Thanks for your suggestions. I appreciate the point that some access 
    features are harder than they first seem to implement. But there definitely 
    are easy to add features for specific genres. Quickly:

    a. Driving games - imagine OutRun - adding wider difficulty level adjustment 
    such as much more generous time limits to complete a stage is very easy.
    b. Pinball games - allowing for adjustment in ball speed as a menu option 
    seems pretty straight forward to me.
    c. Golf games - allowing an Easy Play option whereby hook and slice can be 
    turned off also sounds very easy to me.

    Maybe the Extra Suggestions part is confusing the original message. These 
    are intended to show some ways devleopers can stretch out and go a bit 
    futher with that type of accessibility.

    I wouldn't want us to scare off developers by saying there are no "easy" 
    accessibility features for developers to add. I really don't believe it. If 
    Atari could do it regularly for the Atari 2600 in the early 1980's...

    2. If it's really that contentious, I'll change it - but "3 most requested" 
    isn't bullet proof either.

    3. Why don't we make a Top 3 Most Requested Accessibility Features for each 
    disability area? Sounds like a good idea to me...

    Barrie



    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: "Reid Kimball" <reid at rbkdesign.com>
    To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
    Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 8:07 PM
    Subject: Re: [games_access] Top 3 Top 3 and IGDA GASIG Awards Ceremony 2008


    > Hi Barrie,
    >
    > I like what you have but do have a couple suggestions.
    >
    > 1) I agree with Richard, there are no "easy" accessibility features
    > for developers to add. I have said that adding closed captioning to
    > games is easier than a physics or rendering system and it is true, but
    > creating the captioning system itself presents tricky design problems
    > and depending on the sound engine, maybe even technical issues. In
    > general, I don't think we have the right to designate whether an
    > accessibility feature is easy or not for a developer to implement. How
    > hard it is will depend on the developers technology foundation and
    > programming/designing talent they have.
    >
    > 2) On the contention of Top 3, why not slightly change the wording so
    > it's Top 3 Most Requested Accessibility Features.
    >
    > 3) Why don't we make a Top 3 Most Requested Accessibility Features for
    > each disability area. Richard can submit a list of his top 3 for
    > blind/visually impaired, I'll submit mine for hard of hearing/deaf and
    > so on.
    >
    > -Reid 


----------------------------------------------------------------------------


    _______________________________________________
    games_access mailing list
    games_access at igda.org
    http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access



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From hinn at uiuc.edu  Sun Dec  2 20:10:15 2007
From: hinn at uiuc.edu (d. michelle hinn)
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 19:10:15 -0600
Subject: [games_access] Getting Federal government.  On our side.
In-Reply-To: <008201c83544$ea1a75b0$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
References: <003701c834d4$043173c0$0202a8c0@oneswitch>AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIzkPCwA
	<005401c8351b$59e1f9b0$6501a8c0@Inspiron><001501c8351f$2a45b990$0202a8c0@o
	neswitch>	AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIykQSwA
	<008201c83544$ea1a75b0$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
Message-ID: <p0623090ec37904e5dc69@[130.126.29.70]>

Well, the reality is that it can take a VERY long time for a bill to 
become a law...and even longer for something to become a bill! While 
I think we should send something to the government I think the first 
step is going to be sending something that makes them aware that this 
is even an issue.

Then we probably need the help of a legislative attorney who knows 
what specific constitutional laws are being violated and in what 
instances. For instance, I'm pretty sure that there's no law that 
requires that the music industry makes all CDs sold accessible to all 
so a federal law mandating that video games are accessible to all 
seems like that's probably pretty improbable. But what about video 
game tournaments that exclude disabled gamers or a video game that's 
marketed and used in schools (that, for sure, is a violation of US 
law)?

I don't mean to be discouraging -- quite the opposite. We just have 
to know what's possible and what is realistic and what can be done 
soon and what is going to take a whole lot of persistence.

Michelle

>Sounds great.  I'm just not sure how to tie it in a broad?  How would that
>work?  I was suggesting that if it worked here it would become something
>marketable that other countries with one the same stamp of approval.
>
>My thoughts would be if it was made into some kind of legislation who makes
>up the ideas for ranking if it becomes accepted?
>
>I think the best thing is to put together the petition that I will
>definitely start writing.  And then if we get any important representatives
>responding they can let us know what they think the best solution would be.
>
>Ultimately I think it should be something we can make money from instead of
>giving away all our ideas.  So I'm sure there will be guidelines written up
>basic ones may be but then after that someone needs to regulate it.
>
>Kind of like what Hillary Clinton set up with the MSRP people.  And as they
>might already have a branch or suggest a private branch which would be
>better.  Maybe they would find it and give us a place to locate.  One of the
>best persuasive points to put in the petition would be for the injured
>soldiers.
>
>Robert
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
>On Behalf Of d. michelle hinn
>Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 7:34 PM
>To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
>Subject: Re: [games_access] Getting Federal government. On our side.
>
>I have all the US Senate/House/Governors email addresses so if you
>start it and others can help edit, I can send out a press release.
>
>We can start by raising the issue with the US government because I
>have those addresses but as Barrie suggested -- why limit this to
>just the US?
>
>I'm not sure how successful it will be but we haven't tried it and
>with the right tone it's worth a shot -- if anything it never hurts
>to remind the US government who often tries to outlaw gaming after
>this and that happens that games are important and not all bad. I'm
>always happy to contribute to that approach!
>
>Michelle
>
>>Robert, if you kick start it, and get it going - I'll support you
>>and so will others. Why not
>>start by building an on-line petition - I'm sure there's more than just me
>>here that would be happy to proof read it and add suggestions before
>>it goes live.
>>
>>Take a look here:
>>
>>http://www.petitiononline.com/
>>http://www.petitiononline.com/Captions/petition.html
>>
>>I too don't know how successful this approach will be - but none of us will
>>know for sure unless it's tried.
>>
>>At the very least, it can burble away in the background - building support
>>for us in numbers. Perhaps we could all point people in its direction if it
>>says things we are mostly happy with? I'd like it to be a bit more
>>international in scope, so I'd love to see an intro paragraph with links to
>>translated versions in other languages.
>>
>>Go for it, Robert!
>>
>>Barrie
>  >www.OneSwitch.org.uk
>>
>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Florio"
><arthit73 at cablespeed.com>
>>To: "'IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List'" <games_access at igda.org>
>>Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 7:41 PM
>>Subject: Re: [games_access] Getting Federal government. On our side.
>>
>>>I'm actually proposing how many of us want to and can help to send letters
>>>to important people like senators, independent game developers, to get
>>>petitions signed, and send it to some senators to get some kind of
>>>nationwide talk on this and finally a regulated necessity standard?
>>>
>>>I think it's a very good and noble thing to do.  Thinking of it in a way
>>>that it's an industry that has ignored and does not have any future plans
>>>for any big deals for accessibility for people.  Especially in the United
>>>States is our Constitution write to have fair access to all forms of
>>>entertainment.  To not allow people access to their product is
>>>discrimination.
>>>
>>>Again this is something I have proposed before nobody said they wanted to
>>>work on it and I don't know why it seems like a great thing to do.  Stand
>>>up
>>>for our rights that's what the government is there to help us to
>>>especially
>>>in a billion-dollar industry making millions and millions but ignoring the
>>>rest seems wrong.
>>>
>>>Robert
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>games_access mailing list
>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>games_access mailing list
>>games_access at igda.org
>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access



From arthit73 at cablespeed.com  Sun Dec  2 20:26:15 2007
From: arthit73 at cablespeed.com (Robert Florio)
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 20:26:15 -0500
Subject: [games_access] First draft. Getting Federal government. On our
	side.
In-Reply-To: AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIykQSwA
References: <003701c834d4$043173c0$0202a8c0@oneswitch>AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIzkPCwA<005401c8351b$59e1f9b0$6501a8c0@Inspiron><001501c8351f$2a45b990$0202a8c0@oneswitch>
	AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIykQSwA
Message-ID: <008301c8354b$7f7d8150$6501a8c0@Inspiron>

Thanks for the link skies.  I did a little research on petitions.  Let me
know what you think about this first draft?

Game Accessibility Petition
Author.  Robert Florio
Organization. IGDA Accessibility SIG
December 2, 2007

First draft.

Description/History:

In 2007 the game design industry has continued to fail making games
accessible for people with limitations. Since the conception and marketing
of videogames in the early 1980s, videogames have grown in complexity in
design and development as well as extremely profitable receiving billions of
dollars each year.  In the United States and across the world abroad, the
game design industry has never been remotely understanding in its efforts to
make games accessible for people with limitations.  Limitations such as,
paralysis or injury making it impossible for someone to play with a product
with their hands and fingers, a loss of hearing or site of vision, and even
a cognitive ability to understand and play.

With the ever-growing number of people missing out on enjoyability of this
industry and feeling neglected and discriminated against, people with
disabilities and equal opportunity consumers are disadvantaged time and time
again, and now are looking for a solution to make games reach out to adapt
to their needs as well.

Petition:

We, the undersigned, hereby petition the marketing of commercial country and
worldwide videogames, design accessible videogames to a set standard.  The
requirement should include gamers with physical, visual, audio and cognitive
impairments be given an equal chance in the design of individual videogames.

Please sign this petition if you believe that all gamers should be treated
as equals and videogame should be designed to a set standard of
accessibility for videogames according to their individual game designers
target market?

-----Original Message-----
From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
On Behalf Of d. michelle hinn
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 7:34 PM
To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
Subject: Re: [games_access] Getting Federal government. On our side.

I have all the US Senate/House/Governors email addresses so if you 
start it and others can help edit, I can send out a press release.

We can start by raising the issue with the US government because I 
have those addresses but as Barrie suggested -- why limit this to 
just the US?

I'm not sure how successful it will be but we haven't tried it and 
with the right tone it's worth a shot -- if anything it never hurts 
to remind the US government who often tries to outlaw gaming after 
this and that happens that games are important and not all bad. I'm 
always happy to contribute to that approach!

Michelle

>Robert, if you kick start it, and get it going - I'll support you 
>and so will others. Why not
>start by building an on-line petition - I'm sure there's more than just me
>here that would be happy to proof read it and add suggestions before 
>it goes live.
>
>Take a look here:
>
>http://www.petitiononline.com/
>http://www.petitiononline.com/Captions/petition.html
>
>I too don't know how successful this approach will be - but none of us will
>know for sure unless it's tried.
>
>At the very least, it can burble away in the background - building support
>for us in numbers. Perhaps we could all point people in its direction if it
>says things we are mostly happy with? I'd like it to be a bit more
>international in scope, so I'd love to see an intro paragraph with links to
>translated versions in other languages.
>
>Go for it, Robert!
>
>Barrie
>www.OneSwitch.org.uk
>
>----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Florio"
<arthit73 at cablespeed.com>
>To: "'IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List'" <games_access at igda.org>
>Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 7:41 PM
>Subject: Re: [games_access] Getting Federal government. On our side.
>
>>I'm actually proposing how many of us want to and can help to send letters
>>to important people like senators, independent game developers, to get
>>petitions signed, and send it to some senators to get some kind of
>>nationwide talk on this and finally a regulated necessity standard?
>>
>>I think it's a very good and noble thing to do.  Thinking of it in a way
>>that it's an industry that has ignored and does not have any future plans
>>for any big deals for accessibility for people.  Especially in the United
>>States is our Constitution write to have fair access to all forms of
>>entertainment.  To not allow people access to their product is
>>discrimination.
>>
>>Again this is something I have proposed before nobody said they wanted to
>>work on it and I don't know why it seems like a great thing to do.  Stand
>>up
>>for our rights that's what the government is there to help us to
>>especially
>>in a billion-dollar industry making millions and millions but ignoring the
>>rest seems wrong.
>>
>>Robert
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>games_access mailing list
>>games_access at igda.org
>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access

_______________________________________________
games_access mailing list
games_access at igda.org
http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access



From arthit73 at cablespeed.com  Sun Dec  2 20:30:57 2007
From: arthit73 at cablespeed.com (Robert Florio)
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 20:30:57 -0500
Subject: [games_access] Getting Federal government.  On our side.
In-Reply-To: AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIxkQiwA
References: <003701c834d4$043173c0$0202a8c0@oneswitch>AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIzkPCwA<005401c8351b$59e1f9b0$6501a8c0@Inspiron><001501c8351f$2a45b990$0202a8c0@oneswitch>	AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIykQSwA<008201c83544$ea1a75b0$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
	AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIxkQiwA
Message-ID: <008a01c8354c$3c4c0220$6501a8c0@Inspiron>

I know what you mean Michelle.  But the bottom line is there needs to be
something created so that the entertainment world has a standard also.

Take for example the product brought out by the movie industry.

In order for their productivity listened to by people with heart hearing,
the movie theaters themselves by law, have to provide assistance technology
to help the people either see or hear with devices.

To me that seems like not exactly the same thing but something similar.

The game design industry also provides a product that is not equal
opportunity to enjoy.

If we can get the petition circled around then we can send it to the right
people who know the law and who can help us voice in if they see the need,
which will combine the most important people we can find to sign it.

Even if we just get around to the people we need to sign it, and then send
it around to officials, and nothing happens, I think it makes a very loud
statement.  Because then it can be documented who signed it.

I would imagine trying to get the key names in the industry to sign it.
Even the employees for those companies.

Not to mention sending it out to all the important institutions.

On their web site for the petition web page they do say that it's
prohibited, not allowed, to mass e-mail yourself they set it up somehow
targeting it to the right people I'm not sure how.

I do not know what that's all about.  Seems kind of crazy.

Robert

-----Original Message-----
From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
On Behalf Of d. michelle hinn
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 8:10 PM
To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
Subject: Re: [games_access] Getting Federal government. On our side.

Well, the reality is that it can take a VERY long time for a bill to 
become a law...and even longer for something to become a bill! While 
I think we should send something to the government I think the first 
step is going to be sending something that makes them aware that this 
is even an issue.

Then we probably need the help of a legislative attorney who knows 
what specific constitutional laws are being violated and in what 
instances. For instance, I'm pretty sure that there's no law that 
requires that the music industry makes all CDs sold accessible to all 
so a federal law mandating that video games are accessible to all 
seems like that's probably pretty improbable. But what about video 
game tournaments that exclude disabled gamers or a video game that's 
marketed and used in schools (that, for sure, is a violation of US 
law)?

I don't mean to be discouraging -- quite the opposite. We just have 
to know what's possible and what is realistic and what can be done 
soon and what is going to take a whole lot of persistence.

Michelle

>Sounds great.  I'm just not sure how to tie it in a broad?  How would that
>work?  I was suggesting that if it worked here it would become something
>marketable that other countries with one the same stamp of approval.
>
>My thoughts would be if it was made into some kind of legislation who makes
>up the ideas for ranking if it becomes accepted?
>
>I think the best thing is to put together the petition that I will
>definitely start writing.  And then if we get any important representatives
>responding they can let us know what they think the best solution would be.
>
>Ultimately I think it should be something we can make money from instead of
>giving away all our ideas.  So I'm sure there will be guidelines written up
>basic ones may be but then after that someone needs to regulate it.
>
>Kind of like what Hillary Clinton set up with the MSRP people.  And as they
>might already have a branch or suggest a private branch which would be
>better.  Maybe they would find it and give us a place to locate.  One of
the
>best persuasive points to put in the petition would be for the injured
>soldiers.
>
>Robert
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
>On Behalf Of d. michelle hinn
>Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 7:34 PM
>To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
>Subject: Re: [games_access] Getting Federal government. On our side.
>
>I have all the US Senate/House/Governors email addresses so if you
>start it and others can help edit, I can send out a press release.
>
>We can start by raising the issue with the US government because I
>have those addresses but as Barrie suggested -- why limit this to
>just the US?
>
>I'm not sure how successful it will be but we haven't tried it and
>with the right tone it's worth a shot -- if anything it never hurts
>to remind the US government who often tries to outlaw gaming after
>this and that happens that games are important and not all bad. I'm
>always happy to contribute to that approach!
>
>Michelle
>
>>Robert, if you kick start it, and get it going - I'll support you
>>and so will others. Why not
>>start by building an on-line petition - I'm sure there's more than just me
>>here that would be happy to proof read it and add suggestions before
>>it goes live.
>>
>>Take a look here:
>>
>>http://www.petitiononline.com/
>>http://www.petitiononline.com/Captions/petition.html
>>
>>I too don't know how successful this approach will be - but none of us
will
>>know for sure unless it's tried.
>>
>>At the very least, it can burble away in the background - building support
>>for us in numbers. Perhaps we could all point people in its direction if
it
>>says things we are mostly happy with? I'd like it to be a bit more
>>international in scope, so I'd love to see an intro paragraph with links
to
>>translated versions in other languages.
>>
>>Go for it, Robert!
>>
>>Barrie
>  >www.OneSwitch.org.uk
>>
>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Florio"
><arthit73 at cablespeed.com>
>>To: "'IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List'" <games_access at igda.org>
>>Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 7:41 PM
>>Subject: Re: [games_access] Getting Federal government. On our side.
>>
>>>I'm actually proposing how many of us want to and can help to send
letters
>>>to important people like senators, independent game developers, to get
>>>petitions signed, and send it to some senators to get some kind of
>>>nationwide talk on this and finally a regulated necessity standard?
>>>
>>>I think it's a very good and noble thing to do.  Thinking of it in a way
>>>that it's an industry that has ignored and does not have any future plans
>>>for any big deals for accessibility for people.  Especially in the United
>>>States is our Constitution write to have fair access to all forms of
>>>entertainment.  To not allow people access to their product is
>>>discrimination.
>>>
>>>Again this is something I have proposed before nobody said they wanted to
>>>work on it and I don't know why it seems like a great thing to do.  Stand
>>>up
>>>for our rights that's what the government is there to help us to
>>>especially
>>>in a billion-dollar industry making millions and millions but ignoring
the
>>>rest seems wrong.
>>>
>>>Robert
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>games_access mailing list
>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>games_access mailing list
>>games_access at igda.org
>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access

_______________________________________________
games_access mailing list
games_access at igda.org
http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access



From eelke.folmer at gmail.com  Sun Dec  2 20:58:32 2007
From: eelke.folmer at gmail.com (Eelke Folmer)
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 17:58:32 -0800
Subject: [games_access] Top 3 Top 3 and IGDA GASIG Awards Ceremony 2008
In-Reply-To: <a6673b8d0712021321y79eba5dfta8db9f5fc453f7ee@mail.gmail.com>
References: <003f01c83524$693adfe0$0202a8c0@oneswitch>
	<a6673b8d0712021321y79eba5dfta8db9f5fc453f7ee@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D362FD78-5B37-4145-BB8F-63B51CBDCE41@gmail.com>

Hi Reid,

On Dec 2, 2007, at 1:21 PM, Reid Kimball wrote:
>
> A solution could be slow motion play mode, but that also presents
> other problems. Using slow motion can impact the timing of scripted
> events and messages being sent and received by the internal game
> systems.

That's not true. Most games provide a synchronization mechanism  
independent of underlying hardware. Drawing/ AI / Physics all need to  
be  synchronized. AI / physics need to be deterministic and are  
executed exactly (n times per second).  Drawing is a bit more  
flexible but at preferably 60 fps missing a few frames is usually not  
a problem. Most games use a tick based timer mechanism (either using  
events or callbacks ).
E.g. if i want my game to run at 60fps I usually implement a timer  
mechanism that goes of every 1/60 second calls all the AI / Physics  
functions of my game handles player input and then calls draw.  
Guaranteed to run the same on any machine. This is how most games  
implement it. (assuming you have a single thread mechanism. For ps3/  
xbox360 you might want to bypass you OS to run your processes for AI  
or physics on a single core  but you would still synchronize them  
using a tick based mechanism, which effectively is already  
implemented in the PS3 pipeline ring-bus).  I can slow my game down  
by changing one variable in my game and it does not change any events  
or messages, it just changes the frequency with which things are  
handled and in the pinball example the speed with which the ball  
moves.. Network play is a different thing but that usually relies  
upon an asynchronous medium (like TCP/IP) anyway.

cheers eelke


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From arthit73 at cablespeed.com  Sun Dec  2 21:08:18 2007
From: arthit73 at cablespeed.com (Robert Florio)
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 21:08:18 -0500
Subject: [games_access] Top 3 Top 3 and IGDA GASIG Awards Ceremony 2008
In-Reply-To: AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIwkQywA
References: <003f01c83524$693adfe0$0202a8c0@oneswitch><a6673b8d0712021321y79eba5dfta8db9f5fc453f7ee@mail.gmail.com>
	AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIwkQywA
Message-ID: <009101c83551$625a0930$6501a8c0@Inspiron>

Sounds cool what are you guys talking about?

 

Robert

 

  _____  

From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
On Behalf Of Eelke Folmer
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 8:59 PM
To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
Subject: Re: [games_access] Top 3 Top 3 and IGDA GASIG Awards Ceremony 2008

 

Hi Reid,

 

On Dec 2, 2007, at 1:21 PM, Reid Kimball wrote:

 

A solution could be slow motion play mode, but that also presents

other problems. Using slow motion can impact the timing of scripted

events and messages being sent and received by the internal game

systems.

 

That's not true. Most games provide a synchronization mechanism independent
of underlying hardware. Drawing/ AI / Physics all need to be synchronized.
AI / physics need to be deterministic and are executed exactly (n times per
second). Drawing is a bit more flexible but at preferably 60 fps missing a
few frames is usually not a problem. Most games use a tick based timer
mechanism (either using events or callbacks ). 

E.g. if i want my game to run at 60fps I usually implement a timer mechanism
that goes of every 1/60 second calls all the AI / Physics functions of my
game handles player input and then calls draw. Guaranteed to run the same on
any machine. This is how most games implement it. (assuming you have a
single thread mechanism. For ps3/ xbox360 you might want to bypass you OS to
run your processes for AI or physics on a single core but you would still
synchronize them using a tick based mechanism, which effectively is already
implemented in the PS3 pipeline ring-bus). I can slow my game down by
changing one variable in my game and it does not change any events or
messages, it just changes the frequency with which things are handled and in
the pinball example the speed with which the ball moves.. Network play is a
different thing but that usually relies upon an asynchronous medium (like
TCP/IP) anyway. 

 

cheers eelke

 

 

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From hinn at uiuc.edu  Sun Dec  2 23:24:04 2007
From: hinn at uiuc.edu (d. michelle hinn)
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 22:24:04 -0600
Subject: [games_access] Getting Federal government.  On our side.
In-Reply-To: <008a01c8354c$3c4c0220$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
References: <003701c834d4$043173c0$0202a8c0@oneswitch>AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIzkPCwA
	<005401c8351b$59e1f9b0$6501a8c0@Inspiron><001501c8351f$2a45b990$0202a8c0@o
	neswitch>
	AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIykQSwA<008201c83544$ea1a75b0$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
	AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIxkQiwA
	<008a01c8354c$3c4c0220$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
Message-ID: <p0623090fc3792b11ceb6@[130.126.29.70]>

This is true and I definitely was not trying to discourage the 
petition -- but when we start talking laws...we start talking about 
lawsuits. To do that is a whole different ballgame.

Movie industry captioning does fall, in part, under the Americans 
with Disabilities Act but that ruling was in 2000 and the fight to 
get at least seat based captioning is STILL ongoing with lawsuit 
after lawsuit launched. The issue is that these require special 
devices and sometimes seating that someone has to pick up the bill 
for (who pays for that? The movie theatres? The movie industry?). The 
other issue is captions on or below the screen -- The National 
Association of the Deaf have been trying to get "open captioning" 
(captions on or below the screen) of movies in theaters implemented 
for a loooooong time now -- "open captioning" or on screen captioning 
is NOT covered under the Americans with Disabilities Act for some 
reason so there's ZERO incentive for the film industry to do that 
unless they are showing a foreign language film) and there are entire 
chains of movie theatres that do NOT provide captioning -- even 
seat-based:

http://www.nad.org/site/pp.asp?c=foINKQMBF&b=100779

See also this page for more information on how the movie industry has 
reacted (quoted from the website: "Movie studios and theaters have 
been slow to adopt open captioning of movies by claiming that open 
captioning causes a negative effect on box office sales." Sound 
familiar???):

http://www.nad.org/site/pp.asp?c=foINKQMBF&b=100782

The above is a nice example of a position statement that is perhaps 
more like what we want to go with regarding a petition.

A tax break initiative for movie theatre chains to do provide for 
this was introduced in the JOBS act but when the final version of the 
law passed, this was a "rider" on the law that was not included. 
There have also been lawsuit after lawsuit after lawsuit raised and 
those take forever and usually get dropped for one reason or another.

So perhaps what we need to do is not just get a petition going but 
actually get groups like the National Association of the Deaf and so 
forth involved. Because we can get every name in the game industry to 
sign the petition but it's powerful (and politically connected) 
groups like these that launch the lawsuits -- they have the power, 
connections, and the money to do this.

I know...this is soooo "American." It would be great if there were 
easy and inexpensive options for the industry to implement, that it 
was "politically correct" for a legislator to stand behind this issue 
(remember...we are in election times...) -- the veteran issue is 
great and I definitely use this example in talks that I give. But on 
the flip side...games were also used to recruit so you can imagine 
the powderkeg the senator/whoever that brings this up will face. And 
with all the issues current candidates are having to address...eeek. 
So once again the lawsuit issue comes up. For that? We need way more 
power and we need the power and support of major disability 
organizations.

Note: I am in no way saying "let's launch a lawsuit NOW." In fact, by 
even raising the issue I'm probably pissing off every developer on 
the list. Or not. I'm only raising the issue and pointing out how 
other advocacy groups have handled this issue of accessibility to 
entertainment.

Michelle (who on some days is tempted to go get a law degree in night 
school...hahahahahahah...ok, seriously...I'm tired. And when that 
happens all kinds of crazy things come to mind.)


>I know what you mean Michelle.  But the bottom line is there needs to be
>something created so that the entertainment world has a standard also.
>
>Take for example the product brought out by the movie industry.
>
>In order for their productivity listened to by people with heart hearing,
>the movie theaters themselves by law, have to provide assistance technology
>to help the people either see or hear with devices.
>
>To me that seems like not exactly the same thing but something similar.
>
>The game design industry also provides a product that is not equal
>opportunity to enjoy.
>
>If we can get the petition circled around then we can send it to the right
>people who know the law and who can help us voice in if they see the need,
>which will combine the most important people we can find to sign it.
>
>Even if we just get around to the people we need to sign it, and then send
>it around to officials, and nothing happens, I think it makes a very loud
>statement.  Because then it can be documented who signed it.
>
>I would imagine trying to get the key names in the industry to sign it.
>Even the employees for those companies.
>
>Not to mention sending it out to all the important institutions.
>
>On their web site for the petition web page they do say that it's
>prohibited, not allowed, to mass e-mail yourself they set it up somehow
>targeting it to the right people I'm not sure how.
>
>I do not know what that's all about.  Seems kind of crazy.
>
>Robert
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
>On Behalf Of d. michelle hinn
>Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 8:10 PM
>To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
>Subject: Re: [games_access] Getting Federal government. On our side.
>
>Well, the reality is that it can take a VERY long time for a bill to
>become a law...and even longer for something to become a bill! While
>I think we should send something to the government I think the first
>step is going to be sending something that makes them aware that this
>is even an issue.
>
>Then we probably need the help of a legislative attorney who knows
>what specific constitutional laws are being violated and in what
>instances. For instance, I'm pretty sure that there's no law that
>requires that the music industry makes all CDs sold accessible to all
>so a federal law mandating that video games are accessible to all
>seems like that's probably pretty improbable. But what about video
>game tournaments that exclude disabled gamers or a video game that's
>marketed and used in schools (that, for sure, is a violation of US
>law)?
>
>I don't mean to be discouraging -- quite the opposite. We just have
>to know what's possible and what is realistic and what can be done
>soon and what is going to take a whole lot of persistence.
>
>Michelle
>
>>Sounds great.  I'm just not sure how to tie it in a broad?  How would that
>>work?  I was suggesting that if it worked here it would become something
>>marketable that other countries with one the same stamp of approval.
>>
>>My thoughts would be if it was made into some kind of legislation who makes
>>up the ideas for ranking if it becomes accepted?
>>
>>I think the best thing is to put together the petition that I will
>>definitely start writing.  And then if we get any important representatives
>>responding they can let us know what they think the best solution would be.
>>
>>Ultimately I think it should be something we can make money from instead of
>>giving away all our ideas.  So I'm sure there will be guidelines written up
>>basic ones may be but then after that someone needs to regulate it.
>>
>>Kind of like what Hillary Clinton set up with the MSRP people.  And as they
>>might already have a branch or suggest a private branch which would be
>>better.  Maybe they would find it and give us a place to locate.  One of
>the
>>best persuasive points to put in the petition would be for the injured
>>soldiers.
>>
>>Robert
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
>>On Behalf Of d. michelle hinn
>>Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 7:34 PM
>>To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
>>Subject: Re: [games_access] Getting Federal government. On our side.
>>
>>I have all the US Senate/House/Governors email addresses so if you
>>start it and others can help edit, I can send out a press release.
>>
>>We can start by raising the issue with the US government because I
>>have those addresses but as Barrie suggested -- why limit this to
>>just the US?
>>
>>I'm not sure how successful it will be but we haven't tried it and
>  >with the right tone it's worth a shot -- if anything it never hurts
>>to remind the US government who often tries to outlaw gaming after
>>this and that happens that games are important and not all bad. I'm
>>always happy to contribute to that approach!
>>
>>Michelle
>>
>>>Robert, if you kick start it, and get it going - I'll support you
>>>and so will others. Why not
>>>start by building an on-line petition - I'm sure there's more than just me
>>>here that would be happy to proof read it and add suggestions before
>>>it goes live.
>>>
>>>Take a look here:
>>>
>>>http://www.petitiononline.com/
>>>http://www.petitiononline.com/Captions/petition.html
>>>
>>>I too don't know how successful this approach will be - but none of us
>will
>>>know for sure unless it's tried.
>>>
>>>At the very least, it can burble away in the background - building support
>>>for us in numbers. Perhaps we could all point people in its direction if
>it
>>>says things we are mostly happy with? I'd like it to be a bit more
>>>international in scope, so I'd love to see an intro paragraph with links
>to
>>>translated versions in other languages.
>>>
>>>Go for it, Robert!
>>>
>>>Barrie
>>   >www.OneSwitch.org.uk
>>>
>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Florio"
>><arthit73 at cablespeed.com>
>>>To: "'IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List'" <games_access at igda.org>
>>>Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 7:41 PM
>>>Subject: Re: [games_access] Getting Federal government. On our side.
>>>
>>>>I'm actually proposing how many of us want to and can help to send
>letters
>>>>to important people like senators, independent game developers, to get
>>>>petitions signed, and send it to some senators to get some kind of
>>>>nationwide talk on this and finally a regulated necessity standard?
>>>>
>>>>I think it's a very good and noble thing to do.  Thinking of it in a way
>>>>that it's an industry that has ignored and does not have any future plans
>>>>for any big deals for accessibility for people.  Especially in the United
>>>>States is our Constitution write to have fair access to all forms of
>>>>entertainment.  To not allow people access to their product is
>>>>discrimination.
>>>>
>>>>Again this is something I have proposed before nobody said they wanted to
>>>>work on it and I don't know why it seems like a great thing to do.  Stand
>>>>up
>>>>for our rights that's what the government is there to help us to
>>>>especially
>>>>in a billion-dollar industry making millions and millions but ignoring
>the
>>>>rest seems wrong.
>>>>
>>>>Robert
>>>>
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>games_access mailing list
>>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>games_access mailing list
>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>games_access mailing list
>>games_access at igda.org
>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>games_access mailing list
>>games_access at igda.org
>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
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From thomas at pininteractive.com  Sun Dec  2 09:03:54 2007
From: thomas at pininteractive.com (Thomas Westin)
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 15:03:54 +0100
Subject: [games_access] Blog: Top 3 Top 3 and IGDA GASIG
	AwardsCeremony2008
In-Reply-To: <00ab01c834de$012d28e0$0202a8c0@oneswitch>
References: <000a01c834be$a90a8a50$0202a8c0@oneswitch><006c01c834da$13bae730$6402a8c0@Delletje>
	<00ab01c834de$012d28e0$0202a8c0@oneswitch>
Message-ID: <6EB0B455-91FD-4E77-941F-8874B785BF65@pininteractive.com>

we could do something like the "First Pengiun Award" but targetet  
towards game accessibility - i.e early adopters of accessibility in  
mainstream games e.g Valve could be nominated for Half-life 2 closed- 
captioning - the thing should be for including access from the start.

the "first penguin award" is given to pioneers in the game industry -  
the very first was given to the founders of Activision

/thomas



2 dec 2007 kl. 13.22 skrev Barrie Ellis:

> Hi Richard,
>
> I understand what you are saying re. the word "Top" - it's a bit  
> obvious - but it's catchy and yes it may not be 100% accurate...  
> But these lists are more specific to the genres than you give them  
> credit. It's not difficult to simplify the controls of a golf,  
> driving or pinball game down to less controls, and to make them all  
> digital if needed. It's some work - but I don't agree that this is  
> much of a stretch. I don't want to ignore blind and visually  
> impaired gamers - I personally just don't agree that those  
> adjustments you mention are the easiest for non-insiders to fully  
> grasp. If you want scalable fonts - you'll equally expect  
> everything fundamental to the game to be equally clear - not so  
> easy either. The colour-blind aspect can get quite tricky too  
> without full and proper advice.
>
> I wouldn't really be expecting main-stream developers to jump in  
> with one-switch access for games - but seeing as some iterations of  
> Everybody's Golf almost already can be played just by pressing X -  
> it didn't seem unreasonable to mention.
>
> I agree we need some kind of IGDA GASIG guidelines - but in lieu of  
> that, and in lieu of sitting on my hands... thought this might be  
> helpful.
>
> I've also added extra links at the bottom of each Top 3 to link to  
> extra help (Game Over, Barriers in Games, Help you Play and us of  
> course).
>
> Ideally - this is a basic list that will give developers something  
> to think about with those specific genres. Can it hurt?
>
> Barrie
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: AudioGames.net
> To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
> Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 11:54 AM
> Subject: Re: [games_access] Blog: Top 3 Top 3 and IGDA GASIG Awards  
> Ceremony2008
>
> Hi,
>
> I got some thoughts about this and it is a bit related to what I  
> wrote in my earlier email concerning incoherent information and  
> stuff. I'll try to explain the best I can. On first glance I think  
> "Excellent! 3 simple key points that developers can easily  
> implement and therefore help to make many games a little more  
> accessible".
> But on second glance, I think these small Top 3 lists are  
> misleading - in the bigger picture of game accessibility. If you  
> put it like this to the outside world, it might seem that these  
> three features (essentially the same three features repeated over  
> three genres) are somehow "the most important" features because of  
> the use of the word 'top' (which somehow refers to the option that  
> there might be more). I agree that these three would makes many  
> games a bit more accessible, but I think there are other features  
> that are equally important and would also make many games a bit  
> more accessible. I guess these three are mostly targeted towards  
> the target group that you work with in real life (gamers with  
> physical and learning impairments?) . For 'my' target group (the  
> group that I worked with most - gamers with visual impairments)  
> none of these 3 features make any difference accessibility-wise.  
> Examples of "easy" accessibility features for them would include  
> "color-blind accessibility" (no colour-communication OR provide  
> alternatives to color-communication), "rescalable fonts",  
> "customizable fonts", "customizable contrast", etc. Why wouldn't  
> these not be in your list? They would make many games a little more  
> accessible and are all very "easy"... ?
>
> But here's another thought about "easy"...
>
> Thing is, I have the feeling that there is no thing such as 'easy  
> accessibility'. When I look at this top 3, your second feature  
> ("Compatibility with Alternative Controllers") is not "easy" at  
> all. It is a lot of work to make a game work with alternative  
> controllers, especially when a certain controller has fewer control  
> capacity than the controllable functions in the game. Your "easy"  
> point 2 is actually my Keypoint 1 [1]. And to make my Keypoint 1  
> work, one cannot play without (my) Keypoint 2 (which is partially  
> your point 1) AND (my) Keypoint 3 ("Interaction Techniques").
> My point: I think many accessibility features have consequences  
> that also need to be dealt with. If you do not communicate this  
> fact to developers, I think that's misleading.
>
> I think a list of accessibility features/requirements/design  
> guidelines is good. I guess it is possible to rank each feature  
> with a "easyness of implementation" (for instance, by looking at  
> how much consequences a certain features has - providing a  
> customizable font setting in Prince of Persia doesn't have as much  
> design consequences as to control Prince of Persia with a single  
> switch-controller).  I also think that once you do that, you get a  
> different Top 3 than you present now.
>
> So...
>
> I think such "easy Top 3" lists are a good idea but should be  
> presented slightly different - not as "The Top Of Them All". And  
> when it concerns "easy", we have to be honest about how "easy" it  
> really is. I think you are doing a great job and am glad with your  
> initiative!!!
>
> Best regards,
>
> Richard
>
>
> [1] http://www2.hku.nl/~mosh/ga/gatheoryshort029.doc
>
>
>
> Anyway - I've also set-up a "Top 3 Accessibility Features" section  
> for particular game genres: http://gameaccessibility.blogspot.com/ 
> search/label/Top%203
>
> Pinball, Golf, Driving games covered at present. I'd appreciate  
> people's thoughts, and also on any suggestions of companies to  
> contact once we have a basic consensus. I realise there's lots of  
> things not covered - this is not the point - it's to try and get  
> some of the simplest concepts with the lowest potential overheads  
> to the people making games (indies, home coders, mainstream -  
> anyone!).
>
> This stuff stands on the shoulders of everyone's work so far - so  
> please don't think I'm claiming this as my baby. It's not. It's  
> ours - so help us to make it useful... Perhaps we should get a  
> standard e-mail drafted (with further links for more help as it  
> stands presently - e.g. Eelke's design patterns - Game- 
> Accessibility.com - our forum? our mailing list and so on....
>
> Enough from me today I think...
>
> Barrie
> www.OneSwitch.org.uk
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access

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From j.chetwynd at btinternet.com  Mon Dec  3 06:33:08 2007
From: j.chetwynd at btinternet.com (=?UTF-8?B?In46Jycg44GC44KK44GM44Go44GG44GU44GW44GE44G+44GX44Gf?= =?UTF-8?B?44CCIg==?=)
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 11:33:08 +0000
Subject: [games_access] BBC podcast: "Accessibility in a Web 2.0 world"
Message-ID: <58749335-DAE4-4A09-973C-DEC967A31B9B@btinternet.com>

BBC podcast: "Accessibility in a Web 2.0 world"

http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/news/archives/2007/12/podcast_accessi.html

well I'm working on something to shout about ~:"

Jonathan Chetwynd
Accessibility Consultant on Media Literacy and the Internet





From arthit73 at cablespeed.com  Mon Dec  3 12:16:19 2007
From: arthit73 at cablespeed.com (Robert Florio)
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 12:16:19 -0500
Subject: [games_access] Getting Federal government.  On our side.
In-Reply-To: AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIzEQywA
References: <003701c834d4$043173c0$0202a8c0@oneswitch>AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIzkPCwA<005401c8351b$59e1f9b0$6501a8c0@Inspiron><001501c8351f$2a45b990$0202a8c0@oneswitch>AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIykQSwA<008201c83544$ea1a75b0$6501a8c0@Inspiron>AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIxkQiwA<008a01c8354c$3c4c0220$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
	AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIzEQywA
Message-ID: <00f501c835d0$38832e50$6501a8c0@Inspiron>

That's cool.  Take a look at the rough draft I wrote.  In a previous
submission here.

 

I don't know if it needs to be a lawsuit but oh well if it needs to be it
needs to be.  But like you said the petition starts with that people we can
get.

 

Robert

 

  _____  

From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
On Behalf Of d. michelle hinn
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 11:24 PM
To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
Subject: Re: [games_access] Getting Federal government. On our side.

 

This is true and I definitely was not trying to discourage the petition --
but when we start talking laws...we start talking about lawsuits. To do that
is a whole different ballgame.

 

Movie industry captioning does fall, in part, under the Americans with
Disabilities Act but that ruling was in 2000 and the fight to get at least
seat based captioning is STILL ongoing with lawsuit after lawsuit launched.
The issue is that these require special devices and sometimes seating that
someone has to pick up the bill for (who pays for that? The movie theatres?
The movie industry?). The other issue is captions on or below the screen --
The National Association of the Deaf have been trying to get "open
captioning" (captions on or below the screen) of movies in theaters
implemented for a loooooong time now -- "open captioning" or on screen
captioning is NOT covered under the Americans with Disabilities Act for some
reason so there's ZERO incentive for the film industry to do that unless
they are showing a foreign language film) and there are entire chains of
movie theatres that do NOT provide captioning -- even seat-based:

 

http://www.nad.org/site/pp.asp?c=foINKQMBF&b=100779

 

See also this page for more information on how the movie industry has
reacted (quoted from the website: "Movie studios and theaters have been slow
to adopt open captioning of movies by claiming that open captioning causes a
negative effect on box office sales." Sound familiar???):

 

http://www.nad.org/site/pp.asp?c=foINKQMBF&b=100782

 

The above is a nice example of a position statement that is perhaps more
like what we want to go with regarding a petition.

 

A tax break initiative for movie theatre chains to do provide for this was
introduced in the JOBS act but when the final version of the law passed,
this was a "rider" on the law that was not included. There have also been
lawsuit after lawsuit after lawsuit raised and those take forever and
usually get dropped for one reason or another.

 

So perhaps what we need to do is not just get a petition going but actually
get groups like the National Association of the Deaf and so forth involved.
Because we can get every name in the game industry to sign the petition but
it's powerful (and politically connected) groups like these that launch the
lawsuits -- they have the power, connections, and the money to do this.

 

I know...this is soooo "American." It would be great if there were easy and
inexpensive options for the industry to implement, that it was "politically
correct" for a legislator to stand behind this issue (remember...we are in
election times...) -- the veteran issue is great and I definitely use this
example in talks that I give. But on the flip side...games were also used to
recruit so you can imagine the powderkeg the senator/whoever that brings
this up will face. And with all the issues current candidates are having to
address...eeek. So once again the lawsuit issue comes up. For that? We need
way more power and we need the power and support of major disability
organizations.

 

Note: I am in no way saying "let's launch a lawsuit NOW." In fact, by even
raising the issue I'm probably pissing off every developer on the list. Or
not. I'm only raising the issue and pointing out how other advocacy groups
have handled this issue of accessibility to entertainment.

 

Michelle (who on some days is tempted to go get a law degree in night
school...hahahahahahah...ok, seriously...I'm tired. And when that happens
all kinds of crazy things come to mind.)

 

 

I know what you mean Michelle.  But the bottom line is there needs to be
something created so that the entertainment world has a standard also.

Take for example the product brought out by the movie industry.

In order for their productivity listened to by people with heart hearing,
the movie theaters themselves by law, have to provide assistance technology
to help the people either see or hear with devices.


To me that seems like not exactly the same thing but something similar.

The game design industry also provides a product that is not equal
opportunity to enjoy.

If we can get the petition circled around then we can send it to the right
people who know the law and who can help us voice in if they see the need,
which will combine the most important people we can find to sign it.

Even if we just get around to the people we need to sign it, and then send
it around to officials, and nothing happens, I think it makes a very loud
statement.  Because then it can be documented who signed it.

I would imagine trying to get the key names in the industry to sign it.
Even the employees for those companies.

Not to mention sending it out to all the important institutions.

On their web site for the petition web page they do say that it's
prohibited, not allowed, to mass e-mail yourself they set it up somehow
targeting it to the right people I'm not sure how.

I do not know what that's all about.  Seems kind of crazy.

Robert

-----Original Message-----
From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
On Behalf Of d. michelle hinn
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 8:10 PM
To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
Subject: Re: [games_access] Getting Federal government. On our side.

Well, the reality is that it can take a VERY long time for a bill to
become a law...and even longer for something to become a bill! While
I think we should send something to the government I think the first
step is going to be sending something that makes them aware that this
is even an issue.

Then we probably need the help of a legislative attorney who knows
what specific constitutional laws are being violated and in what
instances. For instance, I'm pretty sure that there's no law that
requires that the music industry makes all CDs sold accessible to all
so a federal law mandating that video games are accessible to all
seems like that's probably pretty improbable. But what about video
game tournaments that exclude disabled gamers or a video game that's
marketed and used in schools (that, for sure, is a violation of US
law)?

I don't mean to be discouraging -- quite the opposite. We just have
to know what's possible and what is realistic and what can be done
soon and what is going to take a whole lot of persistence.

Michelle

>Sounds great.  I'm just not sure how to tie it in a broad?  How would that
>work?  I was suggesting that if it worked here it would become something
>marketable that other countries with one the same stamp of approval.
>
>My thoughts would be if it was made into some kind of legislation who makes
>up the ideas for ranking if it becomes accepted?
>
>I think the best thing is to put together the petition that I will
>definitely start writing.  And then if we get any important representatives
>responding they can let us know what they think the best solution would be.
>
>Ultimately I think it should be something we can make money from instead of
>giving away all our ideas.  So I'm sure there will be guidelines written up
>basic ones may be but then after that someone needs to regulate it.
>
>Kind of like what Hillary Clinton set up with the MSRP people.  And as they
>might already have a branch or suggest a private branch which would be
>better.  Maybe they would find it and give us a place to locate.  One of
the
>best persuasive points to put in the petition would be for the injured
>soldiers.
>
>Robert
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
>On Behalf Of d. michelle hinn
>Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 7:34 PM
>To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
>Subject: Re: [games_access] Getting Federal government. On our side.
>
>I have all the US Senate/House/Governors email addresses so if you
>start it and others can help edit, I can send out a press release.
>
>We can start by raising the issue with the US government because I
>have those addresses but as Barrie suggested -- why limit this to
>just the US?
>
>I'm not sure how successful it will be but we haven't tried it and

>with the right tone it's worth a shot -- if anything it never hurts
>to remind the US government who often tries to outlaw gaming after
>this and that happens that games are important and not all bad. I'm
>always happy to contribute to that approach!
>
>Michelle
>
>>Robert, if you kick start it, and get it going - I'll support you
>>and so will others. Why not
>>start by building an on-line petition - I'm sure there's more than just me
>>here that would be happy to proof read it and add suggestions before
>>it goes live.
>>
>>Take a look here:
>>
>>http://www.petitiononline.com/
>>http://www.petitiononline.com/Captions/petition.html
>>
>>I too don't know how successful this approach will be - but none of us
will
>>know for sure unless it's tried.
>>
>>At the very least, it can burble away in the background - building support
>>for us in numbers. Perhaps we could all point people in its direction if
it
>>says things we are mostly happy with? I'd like it to be a bit more
>>international in scope, so I'd love to see an intro paragraph with links
to
>>translated versions in other languages.
>>
>>Go for it, Robert!
>>
>>Barrie
>  >www.OneSwitch.org.uk
>>
>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Florio"
><arthit73 at cablespeed.com>
>>To: "'IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List'" <games_access at igda.org>
>>Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 7:41 PM
>>Subject: Re: [games_access] Getting Federal government. On our side.
>>
>>>I'm actually proposing how many of us want to and can help to send
letters
>>>to important people like senators, independent game developers, to get
>>>petitions signed, and send it to some senators to get some kind of
>>>nationwide talk on this and finally a regulated necessity standard?
>>>
>>>I think it's a very good and noble thing to do.  Thinking of it in a way
>>>that it's an industry that has ignored and does not have any future plans
>>>for any big deals for accessibility for people.  Especially in the United
>>>States is our Constitution write to have fair access to all forms of
>>>entertainment.  To not allow people access to their product is
>>>discrimination.
>>>
>>>Again this is something I have proposed before nobody said they wanted to
>>>work on it and I don't know why it seems like a great thing to do.  Stand
>>>up
>>>for our rights that's what the government is there to help us to
>>>especially
>>>in a billion-dollar industry making millions and millions but ignoring
the
>>>rest seems wrong.
>>>
>>>Robert
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>games_access mailing list
>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>games_access mailing list
>>games_access at igda.org
>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access

_______________________________________________
games_access mailing list
games_access at igda.org
http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access

_______________________________________________
games_access mailing list
games_access at igda.org
http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access

 

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From arthit73 at cablespeed.com  Mon Dec  3 12:18:41 2007
From: arthit73 at cablespeed.com (Robert Florio)
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 12:18:41 -0500
Subject: [games_access] Getting Federal government.  On our side.
In-Reply-To: AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIzEQywA
References: <003701c834d4$043173c0$0202a8c0@oneswitch>AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIzkPCwA<005401c8351b$59e1f9b0$6501a8c0@Inspiron><001501c8351f$2a45b990$0202a8c0@oneswitch>AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIykQSwA<008201c83544$ea1a75b0$6501a8c0@Inspiron>AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIxkQiwA<008a01c8354c$3c4c0220$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
	AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIzEQywA
Message-ID: <00fa01c835d0$8d053ea0$6501a8c0@Inspiron>

I took a look at that page for your suggestion of what the petition looks
like. http://www.nad.org/site/pp.asp?c=foINKQMBF
<http://www.nad.org/site/pp.asp?c=foINKQMBF&b=100782> &b=100782 .

 

I don't know about that I think it's way too long to write all that.  The
petition web site says it should be short and to the point and very precise.
So I'd look at some of the other examples and it seems to be a good start.
Except we do need to add the right links for people to click on to get
history on the issue that's what was recommended.

 

Robert

 

  _____  

From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
On Behalf Of d. michelle hinn
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 11:24 PM
To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
Subject: Re: [games_access] Getting Federal government. On our side.

 

This is true and I definitely was not trying to discourage the petition --
but when we start talking laws...we start talking about lawsuits. To do that
is a whole different ballgame.

 

Movie industry captioning does fall, in part, under the Americans with
Disabilities Act but that ruling was in 2000 and the fight to get at least
seat based captioning is STILL ongoing with lawsuit after lawsuit launched.
The issue is that these require special devices and sometimes seating that
someone has to pick up the bill for (who pays for that? The movie theatres?
The movie industry?). The other issue is captions on or below the screen --
The National Association of the Deaf have been trying to get "open
captioning" (captions on or below the screen) of movies in theaters
implemented for a loooooong time now -- "open captioning" or on screen
captioning is NOT covered under the Americans with Disabilities Act for some
reason so there's ZERO incentive for the film industry to do that unless
they are showing a foreign language film) and there are entire chains of
movie theatres that do NOT provide captioning -- even seat-based:

 

http://www.nad.org/site/pp.asp?c=foINKQMBF&b=100779

 

See also this page for more information on how the movie industry has
reacted (quoted from the website: "Movie studios and theaters have been slow
to adopt open captioning of movies by claiming that open captioning causes a
negative effect on box office sales." Sound familiar???):

 

http://www.nad.org/site/pp.asp?c=foINKQMBF&b=100782

 

The above is a nice example of a position statement that is perhaps more
like what we want to go with regarding a petition.

 

A tax break initiative for movie theatre chains to do provide for this was
introduced in the JOBS act but when the final version of the law passed,
this was a "rider" on the law that was not included. There have also been
lawsuit after lawsuit after lawsuit raised and those take forever and
usually get dropped for one reason or another.

 

So perhaps what we need to do is not just get a petition going but actually
get groups like the National Association of the Deaf and so forth involved.
Because we can get every name in the game industry to sign the petition but
it's powerful (and politically connected) groups like these that launch the
lawsuits -- they have the power, connections, and the money to do this.

 

I know...this is soooo "American." It would be great if there were easy and
inexpensive options for the industry to implement, that it was "politically
correct" for a legislator to stand behind this issue (remember...we are in
election times...) -- the veteran issue is great and I definitely use this
example in talks that I give. But on the flip side...games were also used to
recruit so you can imagine the powderkeg the senator/whoever that brings
this up will face. And with all the issues current candidates are having to
address...eeek. So once again the lawsuit issue comes up. For that? We need
way more power and we need the power and support of major disability
organizations.

 

Note: I am in no way saying "let's launch a lawsuit NOW." In fact, by even
raising the issue I'm probably pissing off every developer on the list. Or
not. I'm only raising the issue and pointing out how other advocacy groups
have handled this issue of accessibility to entertainment.

 

Michelle (who on some days is tempted to go get a law degree in night
school...hahahahahahah...ok, seriously...I'm tired. And when that happens
all kinds of crazy things come to mind.)

 

 

I know what you mean Michelle.  But the bottom line is there needs to be
something created so that the entertainment world has a standard also.

Take for example the product brought out by the movie industry.

In order for their productivity listened to by people with heart hearing,
the movie theaters themselves by law, have to provide assistance technology
to help the people either see or hear with devices.


To me that seems like not exactly the same thing but something similar.

The game design industry also provides a product that is not equal
opportunity to enjoy.

If we can get the petition circled around then we can send it to the right
people who know the law and who can help us voice in if they see the need,
which will combine the most important people we can find to sign it.

Even if we just get around to the people we need to sign it, and then send
it around to officials, and nothing happens, I think it makes a very loud
statement.  Because then it can be documented who signed it.

I would imagine trying to get the key names in the industry to sign it.
Even the employees for those companies.

Not to mention sending it out to all the important institutions.

On their web site for the petition web page they do say that it's
prohibited, not allowed, to mass e-mail yourself they set it up somehow
targeting it to the right people I'm not sure how.

I do not know what that's all about.  Seems kind of crazy.

Robert

-----Original Message-----
From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
On Behalf Of d. michelle hinn
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 8:10 PM
To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
Subject: Re: [games_access] Getting Federal government. On our side.

Well, the reality is that it can take a VERY long time for a bill to
become a law...and even longer for something to become a bill! While
I think we should send something to the government I think the first
step is going to be sending something that makes them aware that this
is even an issue.

Then we probably need the help of a legislative attorney who knows
what specific constitutional laws are being violated and in what
instances. For instance, I'm pretty sure that there's no law that
requires that the music industry makes all CDs sold accessible to all
so a federal law mandating that video games are accessible to all
seems like that's probably pretty improbable. But what about video
game tournaments that exclude disabled gamers or a video game that's
marketed and used in schools (that, for sure, is a violation of US
law)?

I don't mean to be discouraging -- quite the opposite. We just have
to know what's possible and what is realistic and what can be done
soon and what is going to take a whole lot of persistence.

Michelle

>Sounds great.  I'm just not sure how to tie it in a broad?  How would that
>work?  I was suggesting that if it worked here it would become something
>marketable that other countries with one the same stamp of approval.
>
>My thoughts would be if it was made into some kind of legislation who makes
>up the ideas for ranking if it becomes accepted?
>
>I think the best thing is to put together the petition that I will
>definitely start writing.  And then if we get any important representatives
>responding they can let us know what they think the best solution would be.
>
>Ultimately I think it should be something we can make money from instead of
>giving away all our ideas.  So I'm sure there will be guidelines written up
>basic ones may be but then after that someone needs to regulate it.
>
>Kind of like what Hillary Clinton set up with the MSRP people.  And as they
>might already have a branch or suggest a private branch which would be
>better.  Maybe they would find it and give us a place to locate.  One of
the
>best persuasive points to put in the petition would be for the injured
>soldiers.
>
>Robert
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
>On Behalf Of d. michelle hinn
>Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 7:34 PM
>To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
>Subject: Re: [games_access] Getting Federal government. On our side.
>
>I have all the US Senate/House/Governors email addresses so if you
>start it and others can help edit, I can send out a press release.
>
>We can start by raising the issue with the US government because I
>have those addresses but as Barrie suggested -- why limit this to
>just the US?
>
>I'm not sure how successful it will be but we haven't tried it and

>with the right tone it's worth a shot -- if anything it never hurts
>to remind the US government who often tries to outlaw gaming after
>this and that happens that games are important and not all bad. I'm
>always happy to contribute to that approach!
>
>Michelle
>
>>Robert, if you kick start it, and get it going - I'll support you
>>and so will others. Why not
>>start by building an on-line petition - I'm sure there's more than just me
>>here that would be happy to proof read it and add suggestions before
>>it goes live.
>>
>>Take a look here:
>>
>>http://www.petitiononline.com/
>>http://www.petitiononline.com/Captions/petition.html
>>
>>I too don't know how successful this approach will be - but none of us
will
>>know for sure unless it's tried.
>>
>>At the very least, it can burble away in the background - building support
>>for us in numbers. Perhaps we could all point people in its direction if
it
>>says things we are mostly happy with? I'd like it to be a bit more
>>international in scope, so I'd love to see an intro paragraph with links
to
>>translated versions in other languages.
>>
>>Go for it, Robert!
>>
>>Barrie
>  >www.OneSwitch.org.uk
>>
>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Florio"
><arthit73 at cablespeed.com>
>>To: "'IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List'" <games_access at igda.org>
>>Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 7:41 PM
>>Subject: Re: [games_access] Getting Federal government. On our side.
>>
>>>I'm actually proposing how many of us want to and can help to send
letters
>>>to important people like senators, independent game developers, to get
>>>petitions signed, and send it to some senators to get some kind of
>>>nationwide talk on this and finally a regulated necessity standard?
>>>
>>>I think it's a very good and noble thing to do.  Thinking of it in a way
>>>that it's an industry that has ignored and does not have any future plans
>>>for any big deals for accessibility for people.  Especially in the United
>>>States is our Constitution write to have fair access to all forms of
>>>entertainment.  To not allow people access to their product is
>>>discrimination.
>>>
>>>Again this is something I have proposed before nobody said they wanted to
>>>work on it and I don't know why it seems like a great thing to do.  Stand
>>>up
>>>for our rights that's what the government is there to help us to
>>>especially
>>>in a billion-dollar industry making millions and millions but ignoring
the
>>>rest seems wrong.
>>>
>>>Robert
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>games_access mailing list
>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>games_access mailing list
>>games_access at igda.org
>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access

_______________________________________________
games_access mailing list
games_access at igda.org
http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access

_______________________________________________
games_access mailing list
games_access at igda.org
http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access

 

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From arthit73 at cablespeed.com  Mon Dec  3 13:06:19 2007
From: arthit73 at cablespeed.com (Robert Florio)
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 13:06:19 -0500
Subject: [games_access] Getting Federal government.  On our side.
In-Reply-To: AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIwEQywA
References: <003701c834d4$043173c0$0202a8c0@oneswitch>AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIzkPCwA<005401c8351b$59e1f9b0$6501a8c0@Inspiron><001501c8351f$2a45b990$0202a8c0@oneswitch>	AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIykQSwA<008201c83544$ea1a75b0$6501a8c0@Inspiron>AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIxkQiwA
	AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIwEQywA
Message-ID: <011701c835d7$37cf1c60$6501a8c0@Inspiron>



I know what you mean Michelle.  But the bottom line is there needs to be
something created so that the entertainment world has a standard also.

Take for example the product brought out by the movie industry.

In order for their productivity listened to by people with heart hearing,
the movie theaters themselves by law, have to provide assistance technology
to help the people either see or hear with devices.

To me that seems like not exactly the same thing but something similar.

The game design industry also provides a product that is not equal
opportunity to enjoy.

If we can get the petition circled around then we can send it to the right
people who know the law and who can help us voice in if they see the need,
which will combine the most important people we can find to sign it.

Even if we just get around to the people we need to sign it, and then send
it around to officials, and nothing happens, I think it makes a very loud
statement.  Because then it can be documented who signed it.

I would imagine trying to get the key names in the industry to sign it.
Even the employees for those companies.

Not to mention sending it out to all the important institutions.

On their web site for the petition web page they do say that it's
prohibited, not allowed, to mass e-mail yourself they set it up somehow
targeting it to the right people I'm not sure how.

I do not know what that's all about.  Seems kind of crazy.

Robert

-----Original Message-----
From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
On Behalf Of d. michelle hinn
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 8:10 PM
To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
Subject: Re: [games_access] Getting Federal government. On our side.

Well, the reality is that it can take a VERY long time for a bill to 
become a law...and even longer for something to become a bill! While 
I think we should send something to the government I think the first 
step is going to be sending something that makes them aware that this 
is even an issue.

Then we probably need the help of a legislative attorney who knows 
what specific constitutional laws are being violated and in what 
instances. For instance, I'm pretty sure that there's no law that 
requires that the music industry makes all CDs sold accessible to all 
so a federal law mandating that video games are accessible to all 
seems like that's probably pretty improbable. But what about video 
game tournaments that exclude disabled gamers or a video game that's 
marketed and used in schools (that, for sure, is a violation of US 
law)?

I don't mean to be discouraging -- quite the opposite. We just have 
to know what's possible and what is realistic and what can be done 
soon and what is going to take a whole lot of persistence.

Michelle

>Sounds great.  I'm just not sure how to tie it in a broad?  How would that
>work?  I was suggesting that if it worked here it would become something
>marketable that other countries with one the same stamp of approval.
>
>My thoughts would be if it was made into some kind of legislation who makes
>up the ideas for ranking if it becomes accepted?
>
>I think the best thing is to put together the petition that I will
>definitely start writing.  And then if we get any important representatives
>responding they can let us know what they think the best solution would be.
>
>Ultimately I think it should be something we can make money from instead of
>giving away all our ideas.  So I'm sure there will be guidelines written up
>basic ones may be but then after that someone needs to regulate it.
>
>Kind of like what Hillary Clinton set up with the MSRP people.  And as they
>might already have a branch or suggest a private branch which would be
>better.  Maybe they would find it and give us a place to locate.  One of
the
>best persuasive points to put in the petition would be for the injured
>soldiers.
>
>Robert
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
>On Behalf Of d. michelle hinn
>Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 7:34 PM
>To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
>Subject: Re: [games_access] Getting Federal government. On our side.
>
>I have all the US Senate/House/Governors email addresses so if you
>start it and others can help edit, I can send out a press release.
>
>We can start by raising the issue with the US government because I
>have those addresses but as Barrie suggested -- why limit this to
>just the US?
>
>I'm not sure how successful it will be but we haven't tried it and
>with the right tone it's worth a shot -- if anything it never hurts
>to remind the US government who often tries to outlaw gaming after
>this and that happens that games are important and not all bad. I'm
>always happy to contribute to that approach!
>
>Michelle
>
>>Robert, if you kick start it, and get it going - I'll support you
>>and so will others. Why not
>>start by building an on-line petition - I'm sure there's more than just me
>>here that would be happy to proof read it and add suggestions before
>>it goes live.
>>
>>Take a look here:
>>
>>http://www.petitiononline.com/
>>http://www.petitiononline.com/Captions/petition.html
>>
>>I too don't know how successful this approach will be - but none of us
will
>>know for sure unless it's tried.
>>
>>At the very least, it can burble away in the background - building support
>>for us in numbers. Perhaps we could all point people in its direction if
it
>>says things we are mostly happy with? I'd like it to be a bit more
>>international in scope, so I'd love to see an intro paragraph with links
to
>>translated versions in other languages.
>>
>>Go for it, Robert!
>>
>>Barrie
>  >www.OneSwitch.org.uk
>>
>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Florio"
><arthit73 at cablespeed.com>
>>To: "'IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List'" <games_access at igda.org>
>>Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 7:41 PM
>>Subject: Re: [games_access] Getting Federal government. On our side.
>>
>>>I'm actually proposing how many of us want to and can help to send
letters
>>>to important people like senators, independent game developers, to get
>>>petitions signed, and send it to some senators to get some kind of
>>>nationwide talk on this and finally a regulated necessity standard?
>>>
>>>I think it's a very good and noble thing to do.  Thinking of it in a way
>>>that it's an industry that has ignored and does not have any future plans
>>>for any big deals for accessibility for people.  Especially in the United
>>>States is our Constitution write to have fair access to all forms of
>>>entertainment.  To not allow people access to their product is
>>>discrimination.
>>>
>>>Again this is something I have proposed before nobody said they wanted to
>>>work on it and I don't know why it seems like a great thing to do.  Stand
>>>up
>>>for our rights that's what the government is there to help us to
>>>especially
>>>in a billion-dollar industry making millions and millions but ignoring
the
>>>rest seems wrong.
>>>
>>>Robert
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>games_access mailing list
>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>games_access mailing list
>>games_access at igda.org
>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access

_______________________________________________
games_access mailing list
games_access at igda.org
http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access

_______________________________________________
games_access mailing list
games_access at igda.org
http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access



From barrie.ellis at oneswitch.org.uk  Mon Dec  3 13:34:35 2007
From: barrie.ellis at oneswitch.org.uk (Barrie Ellis)
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 18:34:35 -0000
Subject: [games_access] Game Accessibility Forums
Message-ID: <00bf01c835db$27872f60$0202a8c0@oneswitch>

Am I missing any?

http://gameaccessibility.blogspot.com/2007/12/game-accessibility-forums-of-world.html

Still feel like there must be some in other languages around the globe. Wish we could track them down.

Barrie
www.OneSwitch.org.uk
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From bsawyer at dmill.com  Mon Dec  3 13:59:12 2007
From: bsawyer at dmill.com (Ben Sawyer)
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 13:59:12 -0500
Subject: [games_access] Getting Federal government.  On our side.
In-Reply-To: <011701c835d7$37cf1c60$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
References: <003701c834d4$043173c0$0202a8c0@oneswitch>AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIzkPCwA<005401c8351b$59e1f9b0$6501a8c0@Inspiron><001501c8351f$2a45b990$0202a8c0@oneswitch>	AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIykQSwA<008201c83544$ea1a75b0$6501a8c0@Inspiron>AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIxkQiwA
	AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIwEQywA
	<011701c835d7$37cf1c60$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
Message-ID: <86A6E6FC-12E7-4245-9587-0013B1B98A31@dmill.com>

So hear me out as a friend and consultant in this regard...

I would not do this right away.  I think you need to wait until there  
is a strategic plan in place to properly address this as a potential  
campaign issue (by campaign I mean campaign by the sig not the actual  
presidential campaign).

If the SIG is viewed as trying to simply apply political pressure on  
the game industry then it will be viewed by the industry as an  
opponent vs a partner.  Right now I think there is more work to be  
done as a partner then an opponent.  I think also you will have a  
much better time applying political pressure when the solutions for  
such games are better researched and documented in such a way where  
the argument is reduced to implementing very defined solutions.

In the meantime why not start something where you gather online  
information about people with disabilities and what games they can  
and can't play or wish they could, etc.  And have the identify what  
makes them semi or entirely unplayable - vision impairment  
nothwithstanding.  In the case of vision impairment if we're talking  
absolute blindness we should instead understand what games could be  
playable if they did make a slight change.  Obviously no one with  
severe vision impairment is playing Halo anytime soon.  This data  
captured properly would put a bigger face and set up numbers on the  
issue much better and is a stalking horse for what comes next...

You could create a survey via survey monkey and then also capture  
email.  Then later you could potentially turn these into bona-fide  
petition holders if you felt like you were getting an absolute cold  
shoulder.

My worry is that what you will do with something like this is  
basically redefine the SIG along seeing this requiring a governmental  
political solution.  The games industry is not really great at  
reacting to such overtures.

I don't want you to not think this is a valid option - it is - but to  
me done wrong it's the wrong option at the wrong time.

- Ben


On Dec 3, 2007, at 1:06 PM, Robert Florio wrote:

>
>
> I know what you mean Michelle.  But the bottom line is there needs  
> to be
> something created so that the entertainment world has a standard also.
>
> Take for example the product brought out by the movie industry.
>
> In order for their productivity listened to by people with heart  
> hearing,
> the movie theaters themselves by law, have to provide assistance  
> technology
> to help the people either see or hear with devices.
>
> To me that seems like not exactly the same thing but something  
> similar.
>
> The game design industry also provides a product that is not equal
> opportunity to enjoy.
>
> If we can get the petition circled around then we can send it to  
> the right
> people who know the law and who can help us voice in if they see  
> the need,
> which will combine the most important people we can find to sign it.
>
> Even if we just get around to the people we need to sign it, and  
> then send
> it around to officials, and nothing happens, I think it makes a  
> very loud
> statement.  Because then it can be documented who signed it.
>
> I would imagine trying to get the key names in the industry to sign  
> it.
> Even the employees for those companies.
>
> Not to mention sending it out to all the important institutions.
>
> On their web site for the petition web page they do say that it's
> prohibited, not allowed, to mass e-mail yourself they set it up  
> somehow
> targeting it to the right people I'm not sure how.
>
> I do not know what that's all about.  Seems kind of crazy.
>
> Robert
>


From arthit73 at cablespeed.com  Mon Dec  3 15:36:07 2007
From: arthit73 at cablespeed.com (Robert Florio)
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 15:36:07 -0500
Subject: [games_access] Getting Federal government.  On our side.
In-Reply-To: AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIwETCwA
References: <003701c834d4$043173c0$0202a8c0@oneswitch>AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIzkPCwA<005401c8351b$59e1f9b0$6501a8c0@Inspiron><001501c8351f$2a45b990$0202a8c0@oneswitch>	AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIykQSwA<008201c83544$ea1a75b0$6501a8c0@Inspiron>AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIxkQiwAAAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIwEQywA<011701c835d7$37cf1c60$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
	AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIwETCwA
Message-ID: <014001c835ec$27c428a0$6501a8c0@Inspiron>

That's cool Ben I appreciate what you said.

>From my experience and the experience we've already gotten results from
leading industry people, there is no solution.

I think it's ridiculous I don't think the sig will be viewed as an enemy I
think it's a necessary step.

The part about doing surveys and trying to find and research information is
fine but I don't know how easy it will be because I don't think any of us
has a direct way to actually go out and survey the people we need.  And now
we need that.

It will make the petition stronger.  Brainstorming is needed how do we get
these surveys?  Who do I contact, in person or just e-mail?

The industry already we know they don't design excessively and we know they
don't like the government messing with them, this is an entirely different
thing.  We're not saying they are ruining our child's development with
violence, sex, drugs and alcohol, they are just saying we are discriminating
against interested consumers.  So that might be a little similar but either
way you look at it I think a necessary thing.

If anything I think a petition just serves to show whoever needs to see the
information whether it be government, the industry leaders, whomever, that
there is real backing behind this movement.

Coupled together with what I think is a great idea for some research and
surveys.  But from what I researched petitions are not very detailed they
become very lengthy and hard on the viewer to understand.  They need to be
right to the point specifically so I wrote up a draft I hope some people
might look at it and say something.

But I don't think waiting, Ben, like you might be suggesting, I might be
wrong, for actual games to be made to show how it can be done most likely
won't happen.  Because we can't wait around for process of natural
selection, I'm not an evolutionist, but it sounds funny that way the way I
said it.  I mean someday hopefully a big-time company might go all out on
accessibility but that's like waiting and wishing not knowing anything.
When and where.

I appreciate your thoughts definitely agree that surveys will really help.
In the meantime I think it's great to have a petition ready.  I hope you
look at the draft I wrote.  It's in a previous submission.

I think we absolutely should not be afraid of the industry.  If we are
afraid of them thinking of us as campaign issue starters and becoming
opponents instead of partners, I feel like we will lay down our initiatives
waiting for them to do something instead of going out and making it happen
faster.  It's a human rights issue and claiming I think everyone can see the
industry is not budging.  It's subjective with, budging, the way I mean it
is there's absolutely no big talk on any huge game releases worldwide
showing there is a movement supported by the industry.  Besides independent
gamers and designers but that hasn't made an impact.

If we can rally the right people behind us coupled with surveys than we can
get hopefully important people inspired to actually maybe do something.  I
think when people stand together in a crowd, it holds a lot more weight,
than one or two people standing alone together pointing to a direction where
everyone should be.  When you can plainly see everybody already is behind
these hypothetical 2 people to walk that direction.  I think that's basic
psychology and the way humanity approaches most serious issues.

Robert

-----Original Message-----
From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
On Behalf Of Ben Sawyer
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 1:59 PM it's pretty
To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
Subject: Re: [games_access] Getting Federal government. On our side.

So hear me out as a friend and consultant in this regard...

I would not do this right away.  I think you need to wait until there  
is a strategic plan in place to properly address this as a potential  
campaign issue (by campaign I mean campaign by the sig not the actual  
presidential campaign).

If the SIG is viewed as trying to simply apply political pressure on  
the game industry then it will be viewed by the industry as an  
opponent vs a partner.  Right now I think there is more work to be  
done as a partner then an opponent.  I think also you will have a  
much better time applying political pressure when the solutions for  
such games are better researched and documented in such a way where  
the argument is reduced to implementing very defined solutions.

In the meantime why not start something where you gather online  
information about people with disabilities and what games they can  
and can't play or wish they could, etc.  And have the identify what  
makes them semi or entirely unplayable - vision impairment  
nothwithstanding.  In the case of vision impairment if we're talking  
absolute blindness we should instead understand what games could be  
playable if they did make a slight change.  Obviously no one with  
severe vision impairment is playing Halo anytime soon.  This data  
captured properly would put a bigger face and set up numbers on the  
issue much better and is a stalking horse for what comes next...

You could create a survey via survey monkey and then also capture  
email.  Then later you could potentially turn these into bona-fide  
petition holders if you felt like you were getting an absolute cold  
shoulder.

My worry is that what you will do with something like this is  
basically redefine the SIG along seeing this requiring a governmental  
political solution.  The games industry is not really great at  
reacting to such overtures.

I don't want you to not think this is a valid option - it is - but to  
me done wrong it's the wrong option at the wrong time.

- Ben


On Dec 3, 2007, at 1:06 PM, Robert Florio wrote:

>
>
> I know what you mean Michelle.  But the bottom line is there needs  
> to be
> something created so that the entertainment world has a standard also.
>
> Take for example the product brought out by the movie industry.
>
> In order for their productivity listened to by people with heart  
> hearing,
> the movie theaters themselves by law, have to provide assistance  
> technology
> to help the people either see or hear with devices.
>
> To me that seems like not exactly the same thing but something  
> similar.
>
> The game design industry also provides a product that is not equal
> opportunity to enjoy.
>
> If we can get the petition circled around then we can send it to  
> the right
> people who know the law and who can help us voice in if they see  
> the need,
> which will combine the most important people we can find to sign it.
>
> Even if we just get around to the people we need to sign it, and  
> then send
> it around to officials, and nothing happens, I think it makes a  
> very loud
> statement.  Because then it can be documented who signed it.
>
> I would imagine trying to get the key names in the industry to sign  
> it.
> Even the employees for those companies.
>
> Not to mention sending it out to all the important institutions.
>
> On their web site for the petition web page they do say that it's
> prohibited, not allowed, to mass e-mail yourself they set it up  
> somehow
> targeting it to the right people I'm not sure how.
>
> I do not know what that's all about.  Seems kind of crazy.
>
> Robert
>
_______________________________________________
games_access mailing list
games_access at igda.org
http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access



From hinn at uiuc.edu  Mon Dec  3 15:31:34 2007
From: hinn at uiuc.edu (d. michelle hinn)
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 14:31:34 -0600
Subject: [games_access] Getting Federal government.  On our side.
In-Reply-To: <00fa01c835d0$8d053ea0$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
References: <003701c834d4$043173c0$0202a8c0@oneswitch>AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIzkPCwA
	<005401c8351b$59e1f9b0$6501a8c0@Inspiron><001501c8351f$2a45b990$0202a8c0@o
	neswitch>AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIykQSwA<008201c83544$ea1a75b0$6501a8c0@I
	nspiron>AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIxkQiwA<008a01c8354c$3c4c0220$6501a8c0@In
	spiron>	AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIzEQywA
	<00fa01c835d0$8d053ea0$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
Message-ID: <p06230911c37a17c548a0@[130.126.29.70]>

That's more of a place to move toward than something for right now. 
That's a position statement that's obviously been finally turned -- 
it's something we should work on having for the SIG that will help 
direct our efforts and remind us of what we ultimately are about.

>I took a look at that page for your suggestion of what the petition 
>looks like. 
><http://www.nad.org/site/pp.asp?c=foINKQMBF&b=100782>http://www.nad.org/site/pp.asp?c=foINKQMBF&b=100782 
>.
>
>I don't know about that I think it's way too long to write all that. 
>The petition web site says it should be short and to the point and 
>very precise.  So I'd look at some of the other examples and it 
>seems to be a good start.  Except we do need to add the right links 
>for people to click on to get history on the issue that's what was 
>recommended.
>
>Robert
>
>
>From: games_access-bounces at igda.org 
>[mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of d. michelle hinn
>Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 11:24 PM
>To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
>Subject: Re: [games_access] Getting Federal government. On our side.
>
>This is true and I definitely was not trying to discourage the 
>petition -- but when we start talking laws...we start talking about 
>lawsuits. To do that is a whole different ballgame.
>
>Movie industry captioning does fall, in part, under the Americans 
>with Disabilities Act but that ruling was in 2000 and the fight to 
>get at least seat based captioning is STILL ongoing with lawsuit 
>after lawsuit launched. The issue is that these require special 
>devices and sometimes seating that someone has to pick up the bill 
>for (who pays for that? The movie theatres? The movie industry?). 
>The other issue is captions on or below the screen -- The National 
>Association of the Deaf have been trying to get "open captioning" 
>(captions on or below the screen) of movies in theaters implemented 
>for a loooooong time now -- "open captioning" or on screen 
>captioning is NOT covered under the Americans with Disabilities Act 
>for some reason so there's ZERO incentive for the film industry to 
>do that unless they are showing a foreign language film) and there 
>are entire chains of movie theatres that do NOT provide captioning 
>-- even seat-based:
>
>http://www.nad.org/site/pp.asp?c=foINKQMBF&b=100779
>
>See also this page for more information on how the movie industry 
>has reacted (quoted from the website: "Movie studios and theaters 
>have been slow to adopt open captioning of movies by claiming that 
>open captioning causes a negative effect on box office sales." Sound 
>familiar???):
>
>http://www.nad.org/site/pp.asp?c=foINKQMBF&b=100782
>
>The above is a nice example of a position statement that is perhaps 
>more like what we want to go with regarding a petition.
>
>A tax break initiative for movie theatre chains to do provide for 
>this was introduced in the JOBS act but when the final version of 
>the law passed, this was a "rider" on the law that was not included. 
>There have also been lawsuit after lawsuit after lawsuit raised and 
>those take forever and usually get dropped for one reason or another.
>
>So perhaps what we need to do is not just get a petition going but 
>actually get groups like the National Association of the Deaf and so 
>forth involved. Because we can get every name in the game industry 
>to sign the petition but it's powerful (and politically connected) 
>groups like these that launch the lawsuits -- they have the power, 
>connections, and the money to do this.
>
>I know...this is soooo "American." It would be great if there were 
>easy and inexpensive options for the industry to implement, that it 
>was "politically correct" for a legislator to stand behind this 
>issue (remember...we are in election times...) -- the veteran issue 
>is great and I definitely use this example in talks that I give. But 
>on the flip side...games were also used to recruit so you can 
>imagine the powderkeg the senator/whoever that brings this up will 
>face. And with all the issues current candidates are having to 
>address...eeek. So once again the lawsuit issue comes up. For that? 
>We need way more power and we need the power and support of major 
>disability organizations.
>
>Note: I am in no way saying "let's launch a lawsuit NOW." In fact, 
>by even raising the issue I'm probably pissing off every developer 
>on the list. Or not. I'm only raising the issue and pointing out how 
>other advocacy groups have handled this issue of accessibility to 
>entertainment.
>
>Michelle (who on some days is tempted to go get a law degree in 
>night school...hahahahahahah...ok, seriously...I'm tired. And when 
>that happens all kinds of crazy things come to mind.)
>
>
>
>>I know what you mean Michelle.  But the bottom line is there needs to be
>>something created so that the entertainment world has a standard also.
>>
>>Take for example the product brought out by the movie industry.
>>
>>In order for their productivity listened to by people with heart hearing,
>>the movie theaters themselves by law, have to provide assistance technology
>>to help the people either see or hear with devices.
>>
>>
>>To me that seems like not exactly the same thing but something similar.
>>
>>The game design industry also provides a product that is not equal
>>opportunity to enjoy.
>>
>>If we can get the petition circled around then we can send it to the right
>>people who know the law and who can help us voice in if they see the need,
>>which will combine the most important people we can find to sign it.
>>
>>Even if we just get around to the people we need to sign it, and then send
>>it around to officials, and nothing happens, I think it makes a very loud
>>statement.  Because then it can be documented who signed it.
>>
>>I would imagine trying to get the key names in the industry to sign it.
>>Even the employees for those companies.
>>
>>Not to mention sending it out to all the important institutions.
>>
>>On their web site for the petition web page they do say that it's
>>prohibited, not allowed, to mass e-mail yourself they set it up somehow
>>targeting it to the right people I'm not sure how.
>>
>>I do not know what that's all about.  Seems kind of crazy.
>>
>>Robert
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
>>On Behalf Of d. michelle hinn
>>Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 8:10 PM
>>To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
>>Subject: Re: [games_access] Getting Federal government. On our side.
>>
>>Well, the reality is that it can take a VERY long time for a bill to
>>become a law...and even longer for something to become a bill! While
>>I think we should send something to the government I think the first
>>step is going to be sending something that makes them aware that this
>>is even an issue.
>>
>>Then we probably need the help of a legislative attorney who knows
>>what specific constitutional laws are being violated and in what
>>instances. For instance, I'm pretty sure that there's no law that
>>requires that the music industry makes all CDs sold accessible to all
>>so a federal law mandating that video games are accessible to all
>>seems like that's probably pretty improbable. But what about video
>>game tournaments that exclude disabled gamers or a video game that's
>>marketed and used in schools (that, for sure, is a violation of US
>>law)?
>>
>>I don't mean to be discouraging -- quite the opposite. We just have
>>to know what's possible and what is realistic and what can be done
>>soon and what is going to take a whole lot of persistence.
>>
>>Michelle
>>
>>>Sounds great.  I'm just not sure how to tie it in a broad?  How would that
>>>work?  I was suggesting that if it worked here it would become something
>>>marketable that other countries with one the same stamp of approval.
>>>
>>>My thoughts would be if it was made into some kind of legislation who makes
>>>up the ideas for ranking if it becomes accepted?
>>>
>>>I think the best thing is to put together the petition that I will
>>>definitely start writing.  And then if we get any important representatives
>>>responding they can let us know what they think the best solution would be.
>>>
>>>Ultimately I think it should be something we can make money from instead of
>>>giving away all our ideas.  So I'm sure there will be guidelines written up
>>>basic ones may be but then after that someone needs to regulate it.
>>>
>>>Kind of like what Hillary Clinton set up with the MSRP people.  And as they
>>  >might already have a branch or suggest a private branch which would be
>>>better.  Maybe they would find it and give us a place to locate.  One of
>>the
>>>best persuasive points to put in the petition would be for the injured
>>>soldiers.
>>>
>>>Robert
>>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
>>>On Behalf Of d. michelle hinn
>>>Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 7:34 PM
>>>To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
>>>Subject: Re: [games_access] Getting Federal government. On our side.
>>>
>>>I have all the US Senate/House/Governors email addresses so if you
>>>start it and others can help edit, I can send out a press release.
>>>
>>>We can start by raising the issue with the US government because I
>>>have those addresses but as Barrie suggested -- why limit this to
>>>just the US?
>>>
>>>I'm not sure how successful it will be but we haven't tried it and
>>
>>  >with the right tone it's worth a shot -- if anything it never hurts
>>>to remind the US government who often tries to outlaw gaming after
>>>this and that happens that games are important and not all bad. I'm
>>>always happy to contribute to that approach!
>>>
>>>Michelle
>>>
>>>>Robert, if you kick start it, and get it going - I'll support you
>>>>and so will others. Why not
>>>>start by building an on-line petition - I'm sure there's more than just me
>>>>here that would be happy to proof read it and add suggestions before
>>>>it goes live.
>>>>
>>>>Take a look here:
>>>>
>>>>http://www.petitiononline.com/
>>>>http://www.petitiononline.com/Captions/petition.html
>>>>
>>>>I too don't know how successful this approach will be - but none of us
>>will
>>>>know for sure unless it's tried.
>>>>
>>>>At the very least, it can burble away in the background - building support
>>>>for us in numbers. Perhaps we could all point people in its direction if
>>it
>>>>says things we are mostly happy with? I'd like it to be a bit more
>>>>international in scope, so I'd love to see an intro paragraph with links
>>to
>>>>translated versions in other languages.
>>>>
>>>>Go for it, Robert!
>>>>
>>>>Barrie
>>>   >www.OneSwitch.org.uk
>>>>
>>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Florio"
>>><arthit73 at cablespeed.com>
>>>>To: "'IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List'" <games_access at igda.org>
>>>>Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 7:41 PM
>>>>Subject: Re: [games_access] Getting Federal government. On our side.
>>>>
>>>>>I'm actually proposing how many of us want to and can help to send
>>letters
>>>>>to important people like senators, independent game developers, to get
>>>>>petitions signed, and send it to some senators to get some kind of
>>>>>nationwide talk on this and finally a regulated necessity standard?
>>>>>
>>>>>I think it's a very good and noble thing to do.  Thinking of it in a way
>>>>>that it's an industry that has ignored and does not have any future plans
>>>>>for any big deals for accessibility for people.  Especially in the United
>>>>>States is our Constitution write to have fair access to all forms of
>>>>>entertainment.  To not allow people access to their product is
>>>>>discrimination.
>>>>>
>>>>>Again this is something I have proposed before nobody said they wanted to
>>>>>work on it and I don't know why it seems like a great thing to do.  Stand
>>>>>up
>>>>>for our rights that's what the government is there to help us to
>>>>>especially
>>>>>in a billion-dollar industry making millions and millions but ignoring
>>the
>>>>>rest seems wrong.
>>>>>
>>>>>Robert
>>>>>
>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>games_access mailing list
>>>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>games_access mailing list
>>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>games_access mailing list
>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>games_access mailing list
>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>games_access mailing list
>>games_access at igda.org
>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>games_access mailing list
>>games_access at igda.org
>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
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From hinn at uiuc.edu  Mon Dec  3 16:29:50 2007
From: hinn at uiuc.edu (d. michelle hinn)
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 15:29:50 -0600
Subject: [games_access] Getting Federal government.  On our side.
In-Reply-To: <014001c835ec$27c428a0$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
References: <003701c834d4$043173c0$0202a8c0@oneswitch>AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIzkPCwA
	<005401c8351b$59e1f9b0$6501a8c0@Inspiron><001501c8351f$2a45b990$0202a8c0@o
	neswitch>
	AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIykQSwA<008201c83544$ea1a75b0$6501a8c0@Inspiron>A
	AAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIxkQiwAAAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIwEQywA<011701c835
	d7$37cf1c60$6501a8c0@Inspiron>	AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIwETCwA
	<014001c835ec$27c428a0$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
Message-ID: <p06230913c37a20e26b67@[130.126.29.70]>

I do agree with Ben, that walking down the political road is one to 
take with caution and one to do in the right way in the right time. I 
actually REALLY don't want us to take the lawsuit approach -- I've 
been reading up on a lot of US constitutional law and the ADA and 
this needs to be done VERY VERY well -- and be VERY VERY planned out.

As I was trying to point out -- national groups for the deaf are 
STILL fighting after 7 years to get movie theatres to do what was 
determined by the law (the ADA) had to be done. So a petition is not 
going to result in action happening soon either. And done in an 
antagonist way...we might indeed be seen as a group that's 
anti-industry. The industry gets a LOT of political pressure just in 
trying to even have the right to exist (think of all the people in 
the government that would LOVE to see videogames go away -- tip the 
scale just a little too much in the wrong way and we may give those 
same government leaders MORE reason to try to make videogames go away 
-- they are not only "bad" but they are "discriminatory."

I know...it sounds crazy. But the second we jump into political 
waters, we have to be very savvy about what we are getting into. 
Political spin is an obnoxious reality.

We do have ways of reaching people through surveys -- it's the same 
way we would reach out to them with a petition. Why not think of a 
way to combine the spirit of the petition in with a survey that we 
send out press releases about. After we get initial results, we can 
send out another press release and then go to industry leaders and 
say "hey, this is interesting -- look what we found out?" Then we can 
work with them to help try and create a position statement on what 
the industry could be doing to correct this.

At the same time, we can send the press releases to the people in the 
government with the goal of saying "hey, before you get on the 
anti-videogame bandwagon again, check out what we know is a POSITIVE 
thing about videogames."

This is not meant to be a cop out -- it's just about planning the 
appropriate approach that will get the most action. Petitions are 
cool but that might not be the best way to approach things in the 
political world. So let's not stop our work in getting this figured 
out -- let's keep pushing to figure out what the best first step is 
going to be. This in uncharted territory for us and we need to know 
the historical lessons of what other groups in the entertainment 
world have learned so that we don't repeat any bad history.

Michelle

>That's cool Ben I appreciate what you said.
>
>>From my experience and the experience we've already gotten results from
>leading industry people, there is no solution.
>
>I think it's ridiculous I don't think the sig will be viewed as an enemy I
>think it's a necessary step.
>
>The part about doing surveys and trying to find and research information is
>fine but I don't know how easy it will be because I don't think any of us
>has a direct way to actually go out and survey the people we need.  And now
>we need that.
>
>It will make the petition stronger.  Brainstorming is needed how do we get
>these surveys?  Who do I contact, in person or just e-mail?
>
>The industry already we know they don't design excessively and we know they
>don't like the government messing with them, this is an entirely different
>thing.  We're not saying they are ruining our child's development with
>violence, sex, drugs and alcohol, they are just saying we are discriminating
>against interested consumers.  So that might be a little similar but either
>way you look at it I think a necessary thing.
>
>If anything I think a petition just serves to show whoever needs to see the
>information whether it be government, the industry leaders, whomever, that
>there is real backing behind this movement.
>
>Coupled together with what I think is a great idea for some research and
>surveys.  But from what I researched petitions are not very detailed they
>become very lengthy and hard on the viewer to understand.  They need to be
>right to the point specifically so I wrote up a draft I hope some people
>might look at it and say something.
>
>But I don't think waiting, Ben, like you might be suggesting, I might be
>wrong, for actual games to be made to show how it can be done most likely
>won't happen.  Because we can't wait around for process of natural
>selection, I'm not an evolutionist, but it sounds funny that way the way I
>said it.  I mean someday hopefully a big-time company might go all out on
>accessibility but that's like waiting and wishing not knowing anything.
>When and where.
>
>I appreciate your thoughts definitely agree that surveys will really help.
>In the meantime I think it's great to have a petition ready.  I hope you
>look at the draft I wrote.  It's in a previous submission.
>
>I think we absolutely should not be afraid of the industry.  If we are
>afraid of them thinking of us as campaign issue starters and becoming
>opponents instead of partners, I feel like we will lay down our initiatives
>waiting for them to do something instead of going out and making it happen
>faster.  It's a human rights issue and claiming I think everyone can see the
>industry is not budging.  It's subjective with, budging, the way I mean it
>is there's absolutely no big talk on any huge game releases worldwide
>showing there is a movement supported by the industry.  Besides independent
>gamers and designers but that hasn't made an impact.
>
>If we can rally the right people behind us coupled with surveys than we can
>get hopefully important people inspired to actually maybe do something.  I
>think when people stand together in a crowd, it holds a lot more weight,
>than one or two people standing alone together pointing to a direction where
>everyone should be.  When you can plainly see everybody already is behind
>these hypothetical 2 people to walk that direction.  I think that's basic
>psychology and the way humanity approaches most serious issues.
>
>Robert
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
>On Behalf Of Ben Sawyer
>Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 1:59 PM it's pretty
>To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
>Subject: Re: [games_access] Getting Federal government. On our side.
>
>So hear me out as a friend and consultant in this regard...
>
>I would not do this right away.  I think you need to wait until there 
>is a strategic plan in place to properly address this as a potential 
>campaign issue (by campaign I mean campaign by the sig not the actual 
>presidential campaign).
>
>If the SIG is viewed as trying to simply apply political pressure on 
>the game industry then it will be viewed by the industry as an 
>opponent vs a partner.  Right now I think there is more work to be 
>done as a partner then an opponent.  I think also you will have a 
>much better time applying political pressure when the solutions for 
>such games are better researched and documented in such a way where 
>the argument is reduced to implementing very defined solutions.
>
>In the meantime why not start something where you gather online 
>information about people with disabilities and what games they can 
>and can't play or wish they could, etc.  And have the identify what 
>makes them semi or entirely unplayable - vision impairment 
>nothwithstanding.  In the case of vision impairment if we're talking 
>absolute blindness we should instead understand what games could be 
>playable if they did make a slight change.  Obviously no one with 
>severe vision impairment is playing Halo anytime soon.  This data 
>captured properly would put a bigger face and set up numbers on the 
>issue much better and is a stalking horse for what comes next...
>
>You could create a survey via survey monkey and then also capture 
>email.  Then later you could potentially turn these into bona-fide 
>petition holders if you felt like you were getting an absolute cold 
>shoulder.
>
>My worry is that what you will do with something like this is 
>basically redefine the SIG along seeing this requiring a governmental 
>political solution.  The games industry is not really great at 
>reacting to such overtures.
>
>I don't want you to not think this is a valid option - it is - but to 
>me done wrong it's the wrong option at the wrong time.
>
>- Ben
>
>
>On Dec 3, 2007, at 1:06 PM, Robert Florio wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>  I know what you mean Michelle.  But the bottom line is there needs 
>>  to be
>>  something created so that the entertainment world has a standard also.
>>
>>  Take for example the product brought out by the movie industry.
>>
>>  In order for their productivity listened to by people with heart 
>>  hearing,
>>  the movie theaters themselves by law, have to provide assistance 
>>  technology
>>  to help the people either see or hear with devices.
>>
>>  To me that seems like not exactly the same thing but something 
>>  similar.
>>
>>  The game design industry also provides a product that is not equal
>>  opportunity to enjoy.
>>
>>  If we can get the petition circled around then we can send it to 
>>  the right
>>  people who know the law and who can help us voice in if they see 
>>  the need,
>>  which will combine the most important people we can find to sign it.
>>
>>  Even if we just get around to the people we need to sign it, and 
>>  then send
>>  it around to officials, and nothing happens, I think it makes a 
>>  very loud
>>  statement.  Because then it can be documented who signed it.
>>
>>  I would imagine trying to get the key names in the industry to sign 
>>  it.
>>  Even the employees for those companies.
>>
>>  Not to mention sending it out to all the important institutions.
>>
>>  On their web site for the petition web page they do say that it's
>>  prohibited, not allowed, to mass e-mail yourself they set it up 
>>  somehow
>>  targeting it to the right people I'm not sure how.
>>
>>  I do not know what that's all about.  Seems kind of crazy.
>>
>>  Robert
>>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access



From arthit73 at cablespeed.com  Mon Dec  3 17:19:27 2007
From: arthit73 at cablespeed.com (Robert Florio)
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 17:19:27 -0500
Subject: [games_access] please read first draft! Getting Federal
	government. On our side.
In-Reply-To: AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIykTiwA
References: <003701c834d4$043173c0$0202a8c0@oneswitch>AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIzkPCwA<005401c8351b$59e1f9b0$6501a8c0@Inspiron><001501c8351f$2a45b990$0202a8c0@oneswitch>AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIykQSwA<008201c83544$ea1a75b0$6501a8c0@Inspiron>AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIxkQiwAAAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIwEQywA<011701c835d7$37cf1c60$6501a8c0@Inspiron>	AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIwETCwA<014001c835ec$27c428a0$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
	AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIykTiwA
Message-ID: <017001c835fa$9135afd0$6501a8c0@Inspiron>

Okay I hear what you guys are saying.  Be cautious.  It does sound like we
are scaring ourselves.  I would appreciate though if even what I wrote is
ridiculous someone can read it and respond.  It's below.  I research the few
other petitions they are pretty short and to the point.

I like what you said Michelle about doing something positive and then giving
people something to say, hey look at what we've got that's good.  To get
behind.  This already is something good to get behind.

If it did get any political backing the key would be getting it back by
someone who wouldn't present it as fuel to the fire with the other fire
against videogames that Congress likes to say.  Definitely have it said that
it is a good thing to allow other people to play games just saying, this is
the way for it to be done since the industry doesn't seem to understand the
need.

I think a petition would be awesome.  It's something we can do pretty
easily.  The other things we have to wait and we can wait and wait for.
Like doing surveys, figuring out who to reach out to, that's going to take
so long.  I think petitions can be short and to the point and stand for what
they are.  I don't have to worry too much about it being exactly worded when
the wording is so simple explained it should be simply understood.

I think if we approach it from a simplistic point of view we won't scare
ourselves, and think that we are becoming opponents, and creating a bad name
for ourselves.
Robert

Game Accessibility Petition
Author.  Robert Florio
Organization. IGDA Accessibility SIG
December 2, 2007

First draft.

Description/History:

In 2007 the game design industry has continued to fail making games
accessible for people with limitations. Since the conception and marketing
of videogames in the early 1980s, videogames have grown in complexity in
design and development as well as extremely profitable receiving billions of
dollars each year.  In the United States and across the world abroad, the
game design industry has never been remotely understanding in its efforts to
make games accessible for people with limitations.  Limitations such as,
paralysis or injury making it impossible for someone to play with a product
with their hands and fingers, a loss of hearing or site of vision, and even
a cognitive ability to understand and play.

With the ever-growing number of people missing out on enjoyability of this
industry and feeling neglected and discriminated against, people with
disabilities and equal opportunity consumers are disadvantaged time and time
again, and now are looking for a solution to make games reach out to adapt
to their needs as well.

Petition:

We, the undersigned, hereby petition the marketing of commercial country and
worldwide videogames, design accessible videogames to a set standard.  The
requirement should include gamers with physical, visual, audio and cognitive
impairments be given an equal chance in the design of individual videogames.

Please sign this petition if you believe that all gamers should be treated
as equals and videogame should be designed to a set standard of
accessibility for videogames according to their individual game designers
target market.

-----Original Message-----
From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
On Behalf Of d. michelle hinn
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 4:30 PM
To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
Subject: Re: [games_access] Getting Federal government. On our side.

I do agree with Ben, that walking down the political road is one to 
take with caution and one to do in the right way in the right time. I 
actually REALLY don't want us to take the lawsuit approach -- I've 
been reading up on a lot of US constitutional law and the ADA and 
this needs to be done VERY VERY well -- and be VERY VERY planned out.

As I was trying to point out -- national groups for the deaf are 
STILL fighting after 7 years to get movie theatres to do what was 
determined by the law (the ADA) had to be done. So a petition is not 
going to result in action happening soon either. And done in an 
antagonist way...we might indeed be seen as a group that's 
anti-industry. The industry gets a LOT of political pressure just in 
trying to even have the right to exist (think of all the people in 
the government that would LOVE to see videogames go away -- tip the 
scale just a little too much in the wrong way and we may give those 
same government leaders MORE reason to try to make videogames go away 
-- they are not only "bad" but they are "discriminatory."

I know...it sounds crazy. But the second we jump into political 
waters, we have to be very savvy about what we are getting into. 
Political spin is an obnoxious reality.

We do have ways of reaching people through surveys -- it's the same 
way we would reach out to them with a petition. Why not think of a 
way to combine the spirit of the petition in with a survey that we 
send out press releases about. After we get initial results, we can 
send out another press release and then go to industry leaders and 
say "hey, this is interesting -- look what we found out?" Then we can 
work with them to help try and create a position statement on what 
the industry could be doing to correct this.

At the same time, we can send the press releases to the people in the 
government with the goal of saying "hey, before you get on the 
anti-videogame bandwagon again, check out what we know is a POSITIVE 
thing about videogames."

This is not meant to be a cop out -- it's just about planning the 
appropriate approach that will get the most action. Petitions are 
cool but that might not be the best way to approach things in the 
political world. So let's not stop our work in getting this figured 
out -- let's keep pushing to figure out what the best first step is 
going to be. This in uncharted territory for us and we need to know 
the historical lessons of what other groups in the entertainment 
world have learned so that we don't repeat any bad history.

Michelle

>That's cool Ben I appreciate what you said.
>
>>From my experience and the experience we've already gotten results from
>leading industry people, there is no solution.
>
>I think it's ridiculous I don't think the sig will be viewed as an enemy I
>think it's a necessary step.
>
>The part about doing surveys and trying to find and research information is
>fine but I don't know how easy it will be because I don't think any of us
>has a direct way to actually go out and survey the people we need.  And now
>we need that.
>
>It will make the petition stronger.  Brainstorming is needed how do we get
>these surveys?  Who do I contact, in person or just e-mail?
>
>The industry already we know they don't design excessively and we know they
>don't like the government messing with them, this is an entirely different
>thing.  We're not saying they are ruining our child's development with
>violence, sex, drugs and alcohol, they are just saying we are
discriminating
>against interested consumers.  So that might be a little similar but either
>way you look at it I think a necessary thing.
>
>If anything I think a petition just serves to show whoever needs to see the
>information whether it be government, the industry leaders, whomever, that
>there is real backing behind this movement.
>
>Coupled together with what I think is a great idea for some research and
>surveys.  But from what I researched petitions are not very detailed they
>become very lengthy and hard on the viewer to understand.  They need to be
>right to the point specifically so I wrote up a draft I hope some people
>might look at it and say something.
>
>But I don't think waiting, Ben, like you might be suggesting, I might be
>wrong, for actual games to be made to show how it can be done most likely
>won't happen.  Because we can't wait around for process of natural
>selection, I'm not an evolutionist, but it sounds funny that way the way I
>said it.  I mean someday hopefully a big-time company might go all out on
>accessibility but that's like waiting and wishing not knowing anything.
>When and where.
>
>I appreciate your thoughts definitely agree that surveys will really help.
>In the meantime I think it's great to have a petition ready.  I hope you
>look at the draft I wrote.  It's in a previous submission.
>
>I think we absolutely should not be afraid of the industry.  If we are
>afraid of them thinking of us as campaign issue starters and becoming
>opponents instead of partners, I feel like we will lay down our initiatives
>waiting for them to do something instead of going out and making it happen
>faster.  It's a human rights issue and claiming I think everyone can see
the
>industry is not budging.  It's subjective with, budging, the way I mean it
>is there's absolutely no big talk on any huge game releases worldwide
>showing there is a movement supported by the industry.  Besides independent
>gamers and designers but that hasn't made an impact.
>
>If we can rally the right people behind us coupled with surveys than we can
>get hopefully important people inspired to actually maybe do something.  I
>think when people stand together in a crowd, it holds a lot more weight,
>than one or two people standing alone together pointing to a direction
where
>everyone should be.  When you can plainly see everybody already is behind
>these hypothetical 2 people to walk that direction.  I think that's basic
>psychology and the way humanity approaches most serious issues.
>
>Robert
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
>On Behalf Of Ben Sawyer
>Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 1:59 PM it's pretty
>To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
>Subject: Re: [games_access] Getting Federal government. On our side.
>
>So hear me out as a friend and consultant in this regard...
>
>I would not do this right away.  I think you need to wait until there 
>is a strategic plan in place to properly address this as a potential 
>campaign issue (by campaign I mean campaign by the sig not the actual 
>presidential campaign).
>
>If the SIG is viewed as trying to simply apply political pressure on 
>the game industry then it will be viewed by the industry as an 
>opponent vs a partner.  Right now I think there is more work to be 
>done as a partner then an opponent.  I think also you will have a 
>much better time applying political pressure when the solutions for 
>such games are better researched and documented in such a way where 
>the argument is reduced to implementing very defined solutions.
>
>In the meantime why not start something where you gather online 
>information about people with disabilities and what games they can 
>and can't play or wish they could, etc.  And have the identify what 
>makes them semi or entirely unplayable - vision impairment 
>nothwithstanding.  In the case of vision impairment if we're talking 
>absolute blindness we should instead understand what games could be 
>playable if they did make a slight change.  Obviously no one with 
>severe vision impairment is playing Halo anytime soon.  This data 
>captured properly would put a bigger face and set up numbers on the 
>issue much better and is a stalking horse for what comes next...
>
>You could create a survey via survey monkey and then also capture 
>email.  Then later you could potentially turn these into bona-fide 
>petition holders if you felt like you were getting an absolute cold 
>shoulder.
>
>My worry is that what you will do with something like this is 
>basically redefine the SIG along seeing this requiring a governmental 
>political solution.  The games industry is not really great at 
>reacting to such overtures.
>
>I don't want you to not think this is a valid option - it is - but to 
>me done wrong it's the wrong option at the wrong time.
>
>- Ben
>
>
>On Dec 3, 2007, at 1:06 PM, Robert Florio wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>  I know what you mean Michelle.  But the bottom line is there needs 
>>  to be
>>  something created so that the entertainment world has a standard also.
>>
>>  Take for example the product brought out by the movie industry.
>>
>>  In order for their productivity listened to by people with heart 
>>  hearing,
>>  the movie theaters themselves by law, have to provide assistance 
>>  technology
>>  to help the people either see or hear with devices.
>>
>>  To me that seems like not exactly the same thing but something 
>>  similar.
>>
>>  The game design industry also provides a product that is not equal
>>  opportunity to enjoy.
>>
>>  If we can get the petition circled around then we can send it to 
>>  the right
>>  people who know the law and who can help us voice in if they see 
>>  the need,
>>  which will combine the most important people we can find to sign it.
>>
>>  Even if we just get around to the people we need to sign it, and 
>>  then send
>>  it around to officials, and nothing happens, I think it makes a 
>>  very loud
>>  statement.  Because then it can be documented who signed it.
>>
>>  I would imagine trying to get the key names in the industry to sign 
>>  it.
>>  Even the employees for those companies.
>>
>>  Not to mention sending it out to all the important institutions.
>>
>>  On their web site for the petition web page they do say that it's
>>  prohibited, not allowed, to mass e-mail yourself they set it up 
>>  somehow
>>  targeting it to the right people I'm not sure how.
>>
>>  I do not know what that's all about.  Seems kind of crazy.
>>
>>  Robert
>>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access

_______________________________________________
games_access mailing list
games_access at igda.org
http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access



From thomas at pininteractive.com  Mon Dec  3 18:05:30 2007
From: thomas at pininteractive.com (Thomas Westin)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 00:05:30 +0100
Subject: [games_access] Top 3 Top 3 and IGDA GASIG Awards Ceremony 2008
In-Reply-To: <a6673b8d0712021321y79eba5dfta8db9f5fc453f7ee@mail.gmail.com>
References: <003f01c83524$693adfe0$0202a8c0@oneswitch>
	<a6673b8d0712021321y79eba5dfta8db9f5fc453f7ee@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7BFF86F5-F63D-4FB8-96A8-B8B0F40C864F@pininteractive.com>

a simple way to slow down physics is to slow down the update of the  
entire physics simulation

just modify the step() method in the Havok physics engine used by  
Half-life 2

of course, that doesn't slow down only the vehicles but the entire game

/Thomas

2 dec 2007 kl. 22.21 skrev Reid Kimball:

> Game design and technology has evolved drastically from the early
> 1980's. We're now using simulation based physics and AI systems that
> are open to influence by variables. Making games that use physics,
> such as most sports games are, can be very difficult. Half-Life 2 is a
> physics simulation based game is believe me, it's quite a head ache to
> solve some gameplay issues. Slowing down vehicles will not create
> enough velocity to create a strong enough force of impact to damage
> enemies if you try to run over them or crash through a wall.

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From hinn at uiuc.edu  Mon Dec  3 23:51:52 2007
From: hinn at uiuc.edu (d. michelle hinn)
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 22:51:52 -0600
Subject: [games_access] New Member and thoughts about legislation
Message-ID: <p06230917c37a8c78a279@[130.126.29.70]>

Hey Gang -- we have a new member and for some reason the bounce 
filter got him so I'm resending (Michael -- did you send from another 
address than you subscribed to the list with?). And welcome!

Michelle

PS -- we've been slaving away at getting us known in the dev 
community -- we're getting there and we now have the attention of a 
growing number of people. So we soldier on! :)

>Greetings everyone!
>    Just joined yesterday. I'm a software engineer, basically trolling
>for ideas for projects to kill some spare cycles and looking for
>people who might be interested in helping me design and test the same.
>  My primary goal joining this group and the ACM's SIGACCESS group is
>to try to figure out what types of accessibility software are
>currently lacking and see if I might be able to fill a niche there.
>I've got a lot of experience with industrial imaging and
>automation/control software, and have spent the last several years in
>consumer audio and multimedia development so hopefully we can find
>something I can offer.
>
>I can't rewrite Doom 3 from scratch to make it accessible to everyone
>- hell, I couldn't see anything but the 4 pixels in the center of the
>screen in that game myself - but I have done some experimentation with
>inserting my code into video games and modifying their rendering
>behavior. Any ideas from basic utilities to accessibility gaming mods
>would be much appreciated.
>
>On the current topic regarding legislation - I don't think that will
>be the most productive direction to take.  One of the great things
>about the software industry is that any bloke with a grasp on logic
>and some time can crank out a piece of software. If it doesn't suck
>people might even use it.  In the game industry specifically, we've
>seen small groups of individuals with no money but a lot of time and
>talent completely turn the establishment on its head and create
>entirely new genres of games.  This is one of the things that helps
>keep the industry innovative and fun.
>
>Legislation will create a barrier for independents and hobbyists, and
>prevent new innovations that don't mesh with the laws.  If it's done
>in a lowest-common-denominator manner in the way the ADA is, it could
>even create hurdles to those wishing to create games for a specific
>subset of the market you wish to help.  For example, some really neat
>audio games would be kinda boring for a deaf person.
>
>What I'd recommend instead is to try to make your market more visible
>to the developer community and to approach smaller groups and
>independents for whom making a game with a smaller target audience
>might still be profitable or fun.  There's a fair number of developers
>out there like me that just enjoy writing software and do it as a
>hobby as well as a profession - you'll find a lot of those in the Open
>Source community.  If you want to get their attention, write articles
>for Slashdot and similar places to increase awareness and to educate
>the community, then get projects started on SourceForge to get new
>genres going, etc.
>
>One of the big challenges any developer will face here though is that
>unless they themselves have an identical disability, they won't know
>where to start to make something fun and easy for you to interact
>with. That's where we need your help.
>
>Cheers,
>Mike Ellison



From arthit73 at cablespeed.com  Tue Dec  4 11:23:00 2007
From: arthit73 at cablespeed.com (Robert Florio)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 11:23:00 -0500
Subject: [games_access] New Member and thoughts about legislation
In-Reply-To: AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIzkUCwA
References: AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIzkUCwA
Message-ID: <01be01c83691$f00d4b20$6501a8c0@Inspiron>

Thanks for the info Mike...  I guess it comes down to do we have the
manpower?  Most of the time it's been no.  It seems like it's inevitable
anything that's going to come down to actual results in developer community
is going to take years upon years upon years.

I still not understand why legislation would get in the way.  It seems like
the logical step to get someone to help those who need games accessible and
said of the backdoor way your suggesting, which you are saying makes it
still fun and innovative.

I appreciate your thoughts and don't understand what you mean by making the
software accessible?  Do you mean making the game in cell or the software
that the game developers use accessible?  I think they're two different
things.

We are not concerned with making the software developers use accessible only
that the developers create videogames that are accessible.  I guess you're
might be calling the videogame itself software?

>From my perspective I have a paralysis I've been forced to use my mouth to
play video games, and I can't use my hands so now that I've been around the
industry for four years, graduating from the Art Institute game art and
design now, it's so darn frustrating to see that the tiniest little steps up
to come forward first.

Maybe this is the way of the industry but it seems ridiculous to have to
wait for some people who may or may not have the time, which from years of
this city being open I think three years now, we really have not made that
impact.

There was some contest that we helped sponsor for game accessibility which
resulted in one of the games called, strange attractors now strange
attractors tw o coming out.

I still think there needs to be a group of people behind a movement instead
of little tiny spurts of people being made aware of some issues, and then
huge potential for the project not even go through.  Talking about working
on a game independently.  I think you were suggesting.

It's all very frustrating.  Who gets the credit?  I still believe it should
be profitable these ideas for accessibility I think that's one of the
best-selling points out leaning game, I said it time and time again, it
seems like the industry only responds to examples.

But who can compete when it takes millions of dollars to make them, with
thousands of hours of professionals doing time.

Maybe not legislation is what we need, I repeat maybe not legislation is
what we need, not legislation, not legislation, not legislation, OK, but
getting the petition around to the right people.

And then maybe addressing the issue with some of the big corporations to see
if they finally will do a project or at least see the big picture were doing
it.

I mean is exhausting thinking about the time it's going to take which most
of us can't really spend individual time on these projects.

To be honest the ideas here don't really go too far we have a couple ideas
and then they fly away.  Not all of them.

I wish we could all finally get behind at least something and kick that idea
in the butt until it gets results.  Petitions are so easy to do.  It's
tradition for petitions to get results.

I now understand how doing this would slow down fun and innovation.  It's
about a group of people who have real issues finally being a knowledge and
industry trying to have some sympathy to understand that and then once they
grasp the concept, they're mine will finally develop what is needed.  It
really seems selfish to me like I believe you might have said, Mike, 

	" One of the big challenges any developer will face here though is
that
>unless they themselves have an identical disability, they won't know
>where to start to make something fun and easy for you to interact
>with. That's where we need your help."

That is the big issue.  I mean does the entire game design industry have to
fall fatally ill with injuries for them to finally see the need?  That gives
me an idea,lol, just kidding, there might be something in the water that we
could get the right people to finally realize what's going on. lol

Robert



-----Original Message-----
From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
On Behalf Of d. michelle hinn
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 11:52 PM
To: games_access at igda.org
Subject: [games_access] New Member and thoughts about legislation

Hey Gang -- we have a new member and for some reason the bounce 
filter got him so I'm resending (Michael -- did you send from another 
address than you subscribed to the list with?). And welcome!

Michelle

PS -- we've been slaving away at getting us known in the dev 
community -- we're getting there and we now have the attention of a 
growing number of people. So we soldier on! :)

>Greetings everyone!
>    Just joined yesterday. I'm a software engineer, basically trolling
>for ideas for projects to kill some spare cycles and looking for
>people who might be interested in helping me design and test the same.
>  My primary goal joining this group and the ACM's SIGACCESS group is
>to try to figure out what types of accessibility software are
>currently lacking and see if I might be able to fill a niche there.
>I've got a lot of experience with industrial imaging and
>automation/control software, and have spent the last several years in
>consumer audio and multimedia development so hopefully we can find
>something I can offer.
>
>I can't rewrite Doom 3 from scratch to make it accessible to everyone
>- hell, I couldn't see anything but the 4 pixels in the center of the
>screen in that game myself - but I have done some experimentation with
>inserting my code into video games and modifying their rendering
>behavior. Any ideas from basic utilities to accessibility gaming mods
>would be much appreciated.
>
>On the current topic regarding legislation - I don't think that will
>be the most productive direction to take.  One of the great things
>about the software industry is that any bloke with a grasp on logic
>and some time can crank out a piece of software. If it doesn't suck
>people might even use it.  In the game industry specifically, we've
>seen small groups of individuals with no money but a lot of time and
>talent completely turn the establishment on its head and create
>entirely new genres of games.  This is one of the things that helps
>keep the industry innovative and fun.
>
>Legislation will create a barrier for independents and hobbyists, and
>prevent new innovations that don't mesh with the laws.  If it's done
>in a lowest-common-denominator manner in the way the ADA is, it could
>even create hurdles to those wishing to create games for a specific
>subset of the market you wish to help.  For example, some really neat
>audio games would be kinda boring for a deaf person.
>
>What I'd recommend instead is to try to make your market more visible
>to the developer community and to approach smaller groups and
>independents for whom making a game with a smaller target audience
>might still be profitable or fun.  There's a fair number of developers
>out there like me that just enjoy writing software and do it as a
>hobby as well as a profession - you'll find a lot of those in the Open
>Source community.  If you want to get their attention, write articles
>for Slashdot and similar places to increase awareness and to educate
>the community, then get projects started on SourceForge to get new
>genres going, etc.
>
>One of the big challenges any developer will face here though is that
>unless they themselves have an identical disability, they won't know
>where to start to make something fun and easy for you to interact
>with. That's where we need your help.
>
>Cheers,
>Mike Ellison

_______________________________________________
games_access mailing list
games_access at igda.org
http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access



From hinn at uiuc.edu  Tue Dec  4 12:20:28 2007
From: hinn at uiuc.edu (d. michelle hinn)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 11:20:28 -0600
Subject: [games_access] New Member and thoughts about legislation
In-Reply-To: <01be01c83691$f00d4b20$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
References: AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIzkUCwA
	<01be01c83691$f00d4b20$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
Message-ID: <p0623091cc37b374aabbe@[130.126.29.70]>

Robert --

Legislation is a whole other ballgame and historically in the 
entertainment industry it has been slow to get implemented (remember 
the example of movie theatres -- 7 years after the ruling the movie 
theatre experience still remains inaccessible to a large number of 
potential deaf patrons). And it's put the movie industry at odds with 
national disability groups because it's been lawsuit after lawsuit to 
try and make what IS the law a reality. My biggest concern with 
legislation? It would take a full-time effort of the 4 or 5 of us who 
are active in the SIG who are US citizens and all we would have time 
for IS the legislation effort -- you can forget all about games. It 
would be a purely political move with no time for accessibility 
solutions to come from us -- just a mandate.

So ok, I see that what you wrote below that you don't want to take on 
the legal issue and still want to go forward with a petition. Give us 
some time to read through what you wrote -- this is the beginning of 
finals for my university and I have a lot of grading (and papers to 
read before I grade them) so I haven't had the time to really come up 
with wording suggestions.

There are ways to write the petition so that it comes across as 
inclusive and something non-hostile and might be a better approach to 
take. Right now your personal anger is coming through -- I don't 
blame you, nor am I saying you are wrong to write with passion. I 
know from my own experience in trying to make change that it is not 
fast and it is frustrating. To take other IGDA SIGs as example -- the 
women in games sig has been around for maybe ten years now and they 
are STILL trying to raise the number of women in the industry. That 
doesn't mean they haven't been trying to change that (and by no means 
am I criticizing them -- change is slow) -- and there are a lot more 
active community members there than us and I think in comparison we 
hold our own given that there are far fewer of us.

We HAVE done a LOT as a SIG -- you have to remember that we are about 
10 active members. You are doing a great job in helping us figure out 
this angle but you do have to give us time to digest it and then help 
with the wording of it. We are all volunteers -- none of us get paid 
for work we do with the SIG. It personally frustrates me to hear from 
you that we have made zero impact. That's far from true. And it 
frustrates me to hear things about projects being dropped -- that's 
because the person raising the issue dropped it too.

So no one has said "no petition" -- we just have to have time to 
think this through and make sure that it's written in language that 
is inclusive and doesn't pit us as overly antagonistic. Petitions do 
NOT automatically end up with results.

So please, please don't think we're piling up against you on this -- 
we're just trying to make sure we make this first move the best move 
possible. When you raise an idea to a group, you are going to get 
lots of opinions. That's the way it is. So then you start to adjust 
and rethink through a few things -- that's totally natural. 
Persistence and patience.

Michelle

>Thanks for the info Mike...  I guess it comes down to do we have the
>manpower?  Most of the time it's been no.  It seems like it's inevitable
>anything that's going to come down to actual results in developer community
>is going to take years upon years upon years.
>
>I still not understand why legislation would get in the way.  It seems like
>the logical step to get someone to help those who need games accessible and
>said of the backdoor way your suggesting, which you are saying makes it
>still fun and innovative.
>
>I appreciate your thoughts and don't understand what you mean by making the
>software accessible?  Do you mean making the game in cell or the software
>that the game developers use accessible?  I think they're two different
>things.
>
>We are not concerned with making the software developers use accessible only
>that the developers create videogames that are accessible.  I guess you're
>might be calling the videogame itself software?
>
>>From my perspective I have a paralysis I've been forced to use my mouth to
>play video games, and I can't use my hands so now that I've been around the
>industry for four years, graduating from the Art Institute game art and
>design now, it's so darn frustrating to see that the tiniest little steps up
>to come forward first.
>
>Maybe this is the way of the industry but it seems ridiculous to have to
>wait for some people who may or may not have the time, which from years of
>this city being open I think three years now, we really have not made that
>impact.
>
>There was some contest that we helped sponsor for game accessibility which
>resulted in one of the games called, strange attractors now strange
>attractors tw o coming out.
>
>I still think there needs to be a group of people behind a movement instead
>of little tiny spurts of people being made aware of some issues, and then
>huge potential for the project not even go through.  Talking about working
>on a game independently.  I think you were suggesting.
>
>It's all very frustrating.  Who gets the credit?  I still believe it should
>be profitable these ideas for accessibility I think that's one of the
>best-selling points out leaning game, I said it time and time again, it
>seems like the industry only responds to examples.
>
>But who can compete when it takes millions of dollars to make them, with
>thousands of hours of professionals doing time.
>
>Maybe not legislation is what we need, I repeat maybe not legislation is
>what we need, not legislation, not legislation, not legislation, OK, but
>getting the petition around to the right people.
>
>And then maybe addressing the issue with some of the big corporations to see
>if they finally will do a project or at least see the big picture were doing
>it.
>
>I mean is exhausting thinking about the time it's going to take which most
>of us can't really spend individual time on these projects.
>
>To be honest the ideas here don't really go too far we have a couple ideas
>and then they fly away.  Not all of them.
>
>I wish we could all finally get behind at least something and kick that idea
>in the butt until it gets results.  Petitions are so easy to do.  It's
>tradition for petitions to get results.
>
>I now understand how doing this would slow down fun and innovation.  It's
>about a group of people who have real issues finally being a knowledge and
>industry trying to have some sympathy to understand that and then once they
>grasp the concept, they're mine will finally develop what is needed.  It
>really seems selfish to me like I believe you might have said, Mike,
>
>	" One of the big challenges any developer will face here though is
>that
>>unless they themselves have an identical disability, they won't know
>>where to start to make something fun and easy for you to interact
>>with. That's where we need your help."
>
>That is the big issue.  I mean does the entire game design industry have to
>fall fatally ill with injuries for them to finally see the need?  That gives
>me an idea,lol, just kidding, there might be something in the water that we
>could get the right people to finally realize what's going on. lol
>
>Robert
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
>On Behalf Of d. michelle hinn
>Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 11:52 PM
>To: games_access at igda.org
>Subject: [games_access] New Member and thoughts about legislation
>
>Hey Gang -- we have a new member and for some reason the bounce
>filter got him so I'm resending (Michael -- did you send from another
>address than you subscribed to the list with?). And welcome!
>
>Michelle
>
>PS -- we've been slaving away at getting us known in the dev
>community -- we're getting there and we now have the attention of a
>growing number of people. So we soldier on! :)
>
>>Greetings everyone!
>>     Just joined yesterday. I'm a software engineer, basically trolling
>>for ideas for projects to kill some spare cycles and looking for
>>people who might be interested in helping me design and test the same.
>  >  My primary goal joining this group and the ACM's SIGACCESS group is
>>to try to figure out what types of accessibility software are
>>currently lacking and see if I might be able to fill a niche there.
>>I've got a lot of experience with industrial imaging and
>>automation/control software, and have spent the last several years in
>>consumer audio and multimedia development so hopefully we can find
>>something I can offer.
>>
>>I can't rewrite Doom 3 from scratch to make it accessible to everyone
>>- hell, I couldn't see anything but the 4 pixels in the center of the
>>screen in that game myself - but I have done some experimentation with
>>inserting my code into video games and modifying their rendering
>>behavior. Any ideas from basic utilities to accessibility gaming mods
>>would be much appreciated.
>>
>>On the current topic regarding legislation - I don't think that will
>>be the most productive direction to take.  One of the great things
>>about the software industry is that any bloke with a grasp on logic
>>and some time can crank out a piece of software. If it doesn't suck
>>people might even use it.  In the game industry specifically, we've
>>seen small groups of individuals with no money but a lot of time and
>>talent completely turn the establishment on its head and create
>>entirely new genres of games.  This is one of the things that helps
>>keep the industry innovative and fun.
>>
>>Legislation will create a barrier for independents and hobbyists, and
>>prevent new innovations that don't mesh with the laws.  If it's done
>>in a lowest-common-denominator manner in the way the ADA is, it could
>>even create hurdles to those wishing to create games for a specific
>>subset of the market you wish to help.  For example, some really neat
>>audio games would be kinda boring for a deaf person.
>>
>>What I'd recommend instead is to try to make your market more visible
>>to the developer community and to approach smaller groups and
>>independents for whom making a game with a smaller target audience
>>might still be profitable or fun.  There's a fair number of developers
>>out there like me that just enjoy writing software and do it as a
>>hobby as well as a profession - you'll find a lot of those in the Open
>>Source community.  If you want to get their attention, write articles
>>for Slashdot and similar places to increase awareness and to educate
>>the community, then get projects started on SourceForge to get new
>>genres going, etc.
>>
>>One of the big challenges any developer will face here though is that
>>unless they themselves have an identical disability, they won't know
>>where to start to make something fun and easy for you to interact
>>with. That's where we need your help.
>>
>>Cheers,
>>Mike Ellison
>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access



From arthit73 at cablespeed.com  Tue Dec  4 16:19:51 2007
From: arthit73 at cablespeed.com (Robert Florio)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 16:19:51 -0500
Subject: [games_access] New Member and thoughts about legislation
In-Reply-To: AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIzEVSwA
References: AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIzkUCwA AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIzEVSwA
Message-ID: <003b01c836bb$6b0e9080$6501a8c0@Inspiron>

Out of context.  If this is not being heard that's OK.  I know we all choose
what to listen to.  Mike, I'm not calling use of this sorry I hope my
writing didn't come across that way when I said " It
really seems selfish to me might I believe you might have said, Mike,"

In general I'm saying what the industry is doing seems selfish.

Thanks I hope this is OK.

Sometimes it's hard to see what the industry is doing and it feels good to
be able to say some things.  About it.

Robert

-----Original Message-----
From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
On Behalf Of Robert Florio
Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 11:23 AM
To: 'IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [games_access] New Member and thoughts about legislation

Thanks for the info Mike...  I guess it comes down to do we have the
manpower?  Most of the time it's been no.  It seems like it's inevitable
anything that's going to come down to actual results in developer community
is going to take years upon years upon years.

I still not understand why legislation would get in the way.  It seems like
the logical step to get someone to help those who need games accessible and
said of the backdoor way your suggesting, which you are saying makes it
still fun and innovative.

I appreciate your thoughts and don't understand what you mean by making the
software accessible?  Do you mean making the game in cell or the software
that the game developers use accessible?  I think they're two different
things.

We are not concerned with making the software developers use accessible only
that the developers create videogames that are accessible.  I guess you're
might be calling the videogame itself software?

>From my perspective I have a paralysis I've been forced to use my mouth to
play video games, and I can't use my hands so now that I've been around the
industry for four years, graduating from the Art Institute game art and
design now, it's so darn frustrating to see that the tiniest little steps up
to come forward first.

Maybe this is the way of the industry but it seems ridiculous to have to
wait for some people who may or may not have the time, which from years of
this city being open I think three years now, we really have not made that
impact.

There was some contest that we helped sponsor for game accessibility which
resulted in one of the games called, strange attractors now strange
attractors tw o coming out.

I still think there needs to be a group of people behind a movement instead
of little tiny spurts of people being made aware of some issues, and then
huge potential for the project not even go through.  Talking about working
on a game independently.  I think you were suggesting.

It's all very frustrating.  Who gets the credit?  I still believe it should
be profitable these ideas for accessibility I think that's one of the
best-selling points out leaning game, I said it time and time again, it
seems like the industry only responds to examples.

But who can compete when it takes millions of dollars to make them, with
thousands of hours of professionals doing time.

Maybe not legislation is what we need, I repeat maybe not legislation is
what we need, not legislation, not legislation, not legislation, OK, but
getting the petition around to the right people.

And then maybe addressing the issue with some of the big corporations to see
if they finally will do a project or at least see the big picture were doing
it.

I mean is exhausting thinking about the time it's going to take which most
of us can't really spend individual time on these projects.

To be honest the ideas here don't really go too far we have a couple ideas
and then they fly away.  Not all of them.

I wish we could all finally get behind at least something and kick that idea
in the butt until it gets results.  Petitions are so easy to do.  It's
tradition for petitions to get results.

I now understand how doing this would slow down fun and innovation.  It's
about a group of people who have real issues finally being a knowledge and
industry trying to have some sympathy to understand that and then once they
grasp the concept, they're mine will finally develop what is needed.  It
really seems selfish to me like I believe you might have said, Mike, 

	" One of the big challenges any developer will face here though is
that
>unless they themselves have an identical disability, they won't know
>where to start to make something fun and easy for you to interact
>with. That's where we need your help."

That is the big issue.  I mean does the entire game design industry have to
fall fatally ill with injuries for them to finally see the need?  That gives
me an idea,lol, just kidding, there might be something in the water that we
could get the right people to finally realize what's going on. lol

Robert



-----Original Message-----
From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
On Behalf Of d. michelle hinn
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 11:52 PM
To: games_access at igda.org
Subject: [games_access] New Member and thoughts about legislation

Hey Gang -- we have a new member and for some reason the bounce 
filter got him so I'm resending (Michael -- did you send from another 
address than you subscribed to the list with?). And welcome!

Michelle

PS -- we've been slaving away at getting us known in the dev 
community -- we're getting there and we now have the attention of a 
growing number of people. So we soldier on! :)

>Greetings everyone!
>    Just joined yesterday. I'm a software engineer, basically trolling
>for ideas for projects to kill some spare cycles and looking for
>people who might be interested in helping me design and test the same.
>  My primary goal joining this group and the ACM's SIGACCESS group is
>to try to figure out what types of accessibility software are
>currently lacking and see if I might be able to fill a niche there.
>I've got a lot of experience with industrial imaging and
>automation/control software, and have spent the last several years in
>consumer audio and multimedia development so hopefully we can find
>something I can offer.
>
>I can't rewrite Doom 3 from scratch to make it accessible to everyone
>- hell, I couldn't see anything but the 4 pixels in the center of the
>screen in that game myself - but I have done some experimentation with
>inserting my code into video games and modifying their rendering
>behavior. Any ideas from basic utilities to accessibility gaming mods
>would be much appreciated.
>
>On the current topic regarding legislation - I don't think that will
>be the most productive direction to take.  One of the great things
>about the software industry is that any bloke with a grasp on logic
>and some time can crank out a piece of software. If it doesn't suck
>people might even use it.  In the game industry specifically, we've
>seen small groups of individuals with no money but a lot of time and
>talent completely turn the establishment on its head and create
>entirely new genres of games.  This is one of the things that helps
>keep the industry innovative and fun.
>
>Legislation will create a barrier for independents and hobbyists, and
>prevent new innovations that don't mesh with the laws.  If it's done
>in a lowest-common-denominator manner in the way the ADA is, it could
>even create hurdles to those wishing to create games for a specific
>subset of the market you wish to help.  For example, some really neat
>audio games would be kinda boring for a deaf person.
>
>What I'd recommend instead is to try to make your market more visible
>to the developer community and to approach smaller groups and
>independents for whom making a game with a smaller target audience
>might still be profitable or fun.  There's a fair number of developers
>out there like me that just enjoy writing software and do it as a
>hobby as well as a profession - you'll find a lot of those in the Open
>Source community.  If you want to get their attention, write articles
>for Slashdot and similar places to increase awareness and to educate
>the community, then get projects started on SourceForge to get new
>genres going, etc.
>
>One of the big challenges any developer will face here though is that
>unless they themselves have an identical disability, they won't know
>where to start to make something fun and easy for you to interact
>with. That's where we need your help.
>
>Cheers,
>Mike Ellison

_______________________________________________
games_access mailing list
games_access at igda.org
http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access

_______________________________________________
games_access mailing list
games_access at igda.org
http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access



From arthit73 at cablespeed.com  Tue Dec  4 16:09:46 2007
From: arthit73 at cablespeed.com (Robert Florio)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 16:09:46 -0500
Subject: [games_access] New Member and thoughts about legislation
In-Reply-To: AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIzEViwA
References: AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIzkUCwA<01be01c83691$f00d4b20$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
	AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIzEViwA
Message-ID: <003501c836b9$ffd9c290$6501a8c0@Inspiron>

Thanks Michelle.  I understand that.  All except on the part about, whether
it's true or not that we sometimes don't get things done.  I don't think I
said we were getting zero accomplished.

I respect your thoughts and welcome even more.  I don't mind if your anger
comes through its showing some good passion.  Sorry I came across that way,
probably true.

Well, I hope we can talk more about this.

There have been tons of other things being thrown in and I've been trying to
keep up on and some things I just haven't.  So I know what you mean.

Robert

.
-----Original Message-----
From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
On Behalf Of d. michelle hinn
Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 12:20 PM
To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
Subject: Re: [games_access] New Member and thoughts about legislation

Robert --

Legislation is a whole other ballgame and historically in the 
entertainment industry it has been slow to get implemented (remember 
the example of movie theatres -- 7 years after the ruling the movie 
theatre experience still remains inaccessible to a large number of 
potential deaf patrons). And it's put the movie industry at odds with 
national disability groups because it's been lawsuit after lawsuit to 
try and make what IS the law a reality. My biggest concern with 
legislation? It would take a full-time effort of the 4 or 5 of us who 
are active in the SIG who are US citizens and all we would have time 
for IS the legislation effort -- you can forget all about games. It 
would be a purely political move with no time for accessibility 
solutions to come from us -- just a mandate.

So ok, I see that what you wrote below that you don't want to take on 
the legal issue and still want to go forward with a petition. Give us 
some time to read through what you wrote -- this is the beginning of 
finals for my university and I have a lot of grading (and papers to 
read before I grade them) so I haven't had the time to really come up 
with wording suggestions.

There are ways to write the petition so that it comes across as 
inclusive and something non-hostile and might be a better approach to 
take. Right now your personal anger is coming through -- I don't 
blame you, nor am I saying you are wrong to write with passion. I 
know from my own experience in trying to make change that it is not 
fast and it is frustrating. To take other IGDA SIGs as example -- the 
women in games sig has been around for maybe ten years now and they 
are STILL trying to raise the number of women in the industry. That 
doesn't mean they haven't been trying to change that (and by no means 
am I criticizing them -- change is slow) -- and there are a lot more 
active community members there than us and I think in comparison we 
hold our own given that there are far fewer of us.

We HAVE done a LOT as a SIG -- you have to remember that we are about 
10 active members. You are doing a great job in helping us figure out 
this angle but you do have to give us time to digest it and then help 
with the wording of it. We are all volunteers -- none of us get paid 
for work we do with the SIG. It personally frustrates me to hear from 
you that we have made zero impact. That's far from true. And it 
frustrates me to hear things about projects being dropped -- that's 
because the person raising the issue dropped it too.

So no one has said "no petition" -- we just have to have time to 
think this through and make sure that it's written in language that 
is inclusive and doesn't pit us as overly antagonistic. Petitions do 
NOT automatically end up with results.

So please, please don't think we're piling up against you on this -- 
we're just trying to make sure we make this first move the best move 
possible. When you raise an idea to a group, you are going to get 
lots of opinions. That's the way it is. So then you start to adjust 
and rethink through a few things -- that's totally natural. 
Persistence and patience.

Michelle

>Thanks for the info Mike...  I guess it comes down to do we have the
>manpower?  Most of the time it's been no.  It seems like it's inevitable
>anything that's going to come down to actual results in developer community
>is going to take years upon years upon years.
>
>I still not understand why legislation would get in the way.  It seems like
>the logical step to get someone to help those who need games accessible and
>said of the backdoor way your suggesting, which you are saying makes it
>still fun and innovative.
>
>I appreciate your thoughts and don't understand what you mean by making the
>software accessible?  Do you mean making the game in cell or the software
>that the game developers use accessible?  I think they're two different
>things.
>
>We are not concerned with making the software developers use accessible
only
>that the developers create videogames that are accessible.  I guess you're
>might be calling the videogame itself software?
>
>>From my perspective I have a paralysis I've been forced to use my mouth to
>play video games, and I can't use my hands so now that I've been around the
>industry for four years, graduating from the Art Institute game art and
>design now, it's so darn frustrating to see that the tiniest little steps
up
>to come forward first.
>
>Maybe this is the way of the industry but it seems ridiculous to have to
>wait for some people who may or may not have the time, which from years of
>this city being open I think three years now, we really have not made that
>impact.
>
>There was some contest that we helped sponsor for game accessibility which
>resulted in one of the games called, strange attractors now strange
>attractors tw o coming out.
>
>I still think there needs to be a group of people behind a movement instead
>of little tiny spurts of people being made aware of some issues, and then
>huge potential for the project not even go through.  Talking about working
>on a game independently.  I think you were suggesting.
>
>It's all very frustrating.  Who gets the credit?  I still believe it should
>be profitable these ideas for accessibility I think that's one of the
>best-selling points out leaning game, I said it time and time again, it
>seems like the industry only responds to examples.
>
>But who can compete when it takes millions of dollars to make them, with
>thousands of hours of professionals doing time.
>
>Maybe not legislation is what we need, I repeat maybe not legislation is
>what we need, not legislation, not legislation, not legislation, OK, but
>getting the petition around to the right people.
>
>And then maybe addressing the issue with some of the big corporations to
see
>if they finally will do a project or at least see the big picture were
doing
>it.
>
>I mean is exhausting thinking about the time it's going to take which most
>of us can't really spend individual time on these projects.
>
>To be honest the ideas here don't really go too far we have a couple ideas
>and then they fly away.  Not all of them.
>
>I wish we could all finally get behind at least something and kick that
idea
>in the butt until it gets results.  Petitions are so easy to do.  It's
>tradition for petitions to get results.
>
>I now understand how doing this would slow down fun and innovation.  It's
>about a group of people who have real issues finally being a knowledge and
>industry trying to have some sympathy to understand that and then once they
>grasp the concept, they're mine will finally develop what is needed.  It
>really seems selfish to me like I believe you might have said, Mike,
>
>	" One of the big challenges any developer will face here though is
>that
>>unless they themselves have an identical disability, they won't know
>>where to start to make something fun and easy for you to interact
>>with. That's where we need your help."
>
>That is the big issue.  I mean does the entire game design industry have to
>fall fatally ill with injuries for them to finally see the need?  That
gives
>me an idea,lol, just kidding, there might be something in the water that we
>could get the right people to finally realize what's going on. lol
>
>Robert
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
>On Behalf Of d. michelle hinn
>Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 11:52 PM
>To: games_access at igda.org
>Subject: [games_access] New Member and thoughts about legislation
>
>Hey Gang -- we have a new member and for some reason the bounce
>filter got him so I'm resending (Michael -- did you send from another
>address than you subscribed to the list with?). And welcome!
>
>Michelle
>
>PS -- we've been slaving away at getting us known in the dev
>community -- we're getting there and we now have the attention of a
>growing number of people. So we soldier on! :)
>
>>Greetings everyone!
>>     Just joined yesterday. I'm a software engineer, basically trolling
>>for ideas for projects to kill some spare cycles and looking for
>>people who might be interested in helping me design and test the same.
>  >  My primary goal joining this group and the ACM's SIGACCESS group is
>>to try to figure out what types of accessibility software are
>>currently lacking and see if I might be able to fill a niche there.
>>I've got a lot of experience with industrial imaging and
>>automation/control software, and have spent the last several years in
>>consumer audio and multimedia development so hopefully we can find
>>something I can offer.
>>
>>I can't rewrite Doom 3 from scratch to make it accessible to everyone
>>- hell, I couldn't see anything but the 4 pixels in the center of the
>>screen in that game myself - but I have done some experimentation with
>>inserting my code into video games and modifying their rendering
>>behavior. Any ideas from basic utilities to accessibility gaming mods
>>would be much appreciated.
>>
>>On the current topic regarding legislation - I don't think that will
>>be the most productive direction to take.  One of the great things
>>about the software industry is that any bloke with a grasp on logic
>>and some time can crank out a piece of software. If it doesn't suck
>>people might even use it.  In the game industry specifically, we've
>>seen small groups of individuals with no money but a lot of time and
>>talent completely turn the establishment on its head and create
>>entirely new genres of games.  This is one of the things that helps
>>keep the industry innovative and fun.
>>
>>Legislation will create a barrier for independents and hobbyists, and
>>prevent new innovations that don't mesh with the laws.  If it's done
>>in a lowest-common-denominator manner in the way the ADA is, it could
>>even create hurdles to those wishing to create games for a specific
>>subset of the market you wish to help.  For example, some really neat
>>audio games would be kinda boring for a deaf person.
>>
>>What I'd recommend instead is to try to make your market more visible
>>to the developer community and to approach smaller groups and
>>independents for whom making a game with a smaller target audience
>>might still be profitable or fun.  There's a fair number of developers
>>out there like me that just enjoy writing software and do it as a
>>hobby as well as a profession - you'll find a lot of those in the Open
>>Source community.  If you want to get their attention, write articles
>>for Slashdot and similar places to increase awareness and to educate
>>the community, then get projects started on SourceForge to get new
>>genres going, etc.
>>
>>One of the big challenges any developer will face here though is that
>>unless they themselves have an identical disability, they won't know
>>where to start to make something fun and easy for you to interact
>>with. That's where we need your help.
>>
>>Cheers,
>>Mike Ellison
>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access

_______________________________________________
games_access mailing list
games_access at igda.org
http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access



From barrie.ellis at oneswitch.org.uk  Tue Dec  4 17:18:16 2007
From: barrie.ellis at oneswitch.org.uk (Barrie Ellis)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 22:18:16 -0000
Subject: [games_access] Gentle Petition
Message-ID: <082a01c836c3$91e648d0$0202a8c0@oneswitch>

Robert (and others) - regarding the petition why don't you consider a 
compromise? I know in the UK you can quite easily go down the political path 
to get things to the government:

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/SupportAT/

What about starting a very simple petition - "We the undersigned want to see 
more accessibility features in games...." - with a bit of an explanation 
(But not too much) - and some translations into other languages.

It would be nice to have something to take to developers, indies, 
home-coders to say lots do want this - it's not just us few people 
contacting you! And a few years down the line if we're still getting no 
where - but have everything in place that we can do - then maybe the 
political path is the way to go.

Let's face it - in 50 years - accessibility in software will very likely be 
legislated for (and let's hope it will be so much easier to bring into 
being) - so Robert's not so far off the mark. It's just so.... slow....

What do you think re. the gentle petition?

Barrie


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From hinn at uiuc.edu  Tue Dec  4 17:59:29 2007
From: hinn at uiuc.edu (d. michelle hinn)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 16:59:29 -0600
Subject: [games_access] New Member and thoughts about legislation
In-Reply-To: <003b01c836bb$6b0e9080$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
References: AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIzkUCwA AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIzEVSwA
	<003b01c836bb$6b0e9080$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
Message-ID: <p0623093dc37b7900125f@[130.126.29.70]>

I hear ya Robert -- it's good to vent and we all are frustrated that 
things aren't as easy for the industry to implement as we wish and, 
yeah, some companies are more enlightened than others but then they 
have to fight the same fight to get accessibility features in when 
they are already under tight schedules and may not have planned for 
it. But the more information and feedback we can give them about what 
different gamers want in, say, Halo 4 because it was an issue in 
Halo, Halo 2 and Halo 3, the more likely we can get in changes for 
future versions of a game or other titles that they produce.

Michelle

>Out of context.  If this is not being heard that's OK.  I know we all choose
>what to listen to.  Mike, I'm not calling use of this sorry I hope my
>writing didn't come across that way when I said " It
>really seems selfish to me might I believe you might have said, Mike,"
>
>In general I'm saying what the industry is doing seems selfish.
>
>Thanks I hope this is OK.
>
>Sometimes it's hard to see what the industry is doing and it feels good to
>be able to say some things.  About it.
>
>Robert
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
>On Behalf Of Robert Florio
>Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 11:23 AM
>To: 'IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List'
>Subject: Re: [games_access] New Member and thoughts about legislation
>
>Thanks for the info Mike...  I guess it comes down to do we have the
>manpower?  Most of the time it's been no.  It seems like it's inevitable
>anything that's going to come down to actual results in developer community
>is going to take years upon years upon years.
>
>I still not understand why legislation would get in the way.  It seems like
>the logical step to get someone to help those who need games accessible and
>said of the backdoor way your suggesting, which you are saying makes it
>still fun and innovative.
>
>I appreciate your thoughts and don't understand what you mean by making the
>software accessible?  Do you mean making the game in cell or the software
>that the game developers use accessible?  I think they're two different
>things.
>
>We are not concerned with making the software developers use accessible only
>that the developers create videogames that are accessible.  I guess you're
>might be calling the videogame itself software?
>
>>From my perspective I have a paralysis I've been forced to use my mouth to
>play video games, and I can't use my hands so now that I've been around the
>industry for four years, graduating from the Art Institute game art and
>design now, it's so darn frustrating to see that the tiniest little steps up
>to come forward first.
>
>Maybe this is the way of the industry but it seems ridiculous to have to
>wait for some people who may or may not have the time, which from years of
>this city being open I think three years now, we really have not made that
>impact.
>
>There was some contest that we helped sponsor for game accessibility which
>resulted in one of the games called, strange attractors now strange
>attractors tw o coming out.
>
>I still think there needs to be a group of people behind a movement instead
>of little tiny spurts of people being made aware of some issues, and then
>huge potential for the project not even go through.  Talking about working
>on a game independently.  I think you were suggesting.
>
>It's all very frustrating.  Who gets the credit?  I still believe it should
>be profitable these ideas for accessibility I think that's one of the
>best-selling points out leaning game, I said it time and time again, it
>seems like the industry only responds to examples.
>
>But who can compete when it takes millions of dollars to make them, with
>thousands of hours of professionals doing time.
>
>Maybe not legislation is what we need, I repeat maybe not legislation is
>what we need, not legislation, not legislation, not legislation, OK, but
>getting the petition around to the right people.
>
>And then maybe addressing the issue with some of the big corporations to see
>if they finally will do a project or at least see the big picture were doing
>it.
>
>I mean is exhausting thinking about the time it's going to take which most
>of us can't really spend individual time on these projects.
>
>To be honest the ideas here don't really go too far we have a couple ideas
>and then they fly away.  Not all of them.
>
>I wish we could all finally get behind at least something and kick that idea
>in the butt until it gets results.  Petitions are so easy to do.  It's
>tradition for petitions to get results.
>
>I now understand how doing this would slow down fun and innovation.  It's
>about a group of people who have real issues finally being a knowledge and
>industry trying to have some sympathy to understand that and then once they
>grasp the concept, they're mine will finally develop what is needed.  It
>really seems selfish to me like I believe you might have said, Mike,
>
>	" One of the big challenges any developer will face here though is
>that
>>unless they themselves have an identical disability, they won't know
>>where to start to make something fun and easy for you to interact
>>with. That's where we need your help."
>
>That is the big issue.  I mean does the entire game design industry have to
>fall fatally ill with injuries for them to finally see the need?  That gives
>me an idea,lol, just kidding, there might be something in the water that we
>could get the right people to finally realize what's going on. lol
>
>Robert
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
>On Behalf Of d. michelle hinn
>Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 11:52 PM
>To: games_access at igda.org
>Subject: [games_access] New Member and thoughts about legislation
>
>Hey Gang -- we have a new member and for some reason the bounce
>filter got him so I'm resending (Michael -- did you send from another
>address than you subscribed to the list with?). And welcome!
>
>Michelle
>
>PS -- we've been slaving away at getting us known in the dev
>community -- we're getting there and we now have the attention of a
>growing number of people. So we soldier on! :)
>
>>Greetings everyone!
>>     Just joined yesterday. I'm a software engineer, basically trolling
>>for ideas for projects to kill some spare cycles and looking for
>>people who might be interested in helping me design and test the same.
>>   My primary goal joining this group and the ACM's SIGACCESS group is
>>to try to figure out what types of accessibility software are
>>currently lacking and see if I might be able to fill a niche there.
>>I've got a lot of experience with industrial imaging and
>>automation/control software, and have spent the last several years in
>>consumer audio and multimedia development so hopefully we can find
>>something I can offer.
>>
>>I can't rewrite Doom 3 from scratch to make it accessible to everyone
>>- hell, I couldn't see anything but the 4 pixels in the center of the
>>screen in that game myself - but I have done some experimentation with
>>inserting my code into video games and modifying their rendering
>>behavior. Any ideas from basic utilities to accessibility gaming mods
>>would be much appreciated.
>>
>>On the current topic regarding legislation - I don't think that will
>>be the most productive direction to take.  One of the great things
>>about the software industry is that any bloke with a grasp on logic
>>and some time can crank out a piece of software. If it doesn't suck
>>people might even use it.  In the game industry specifically, we've
>>seen small groups of individuals with no money but a lot of time and
>>talent completely turn the establishment on its head and create
>>entirely new genres of games.  This is one of the things that helps
>>keep the industry innovative and fun.
>>
>>Legislation will create a barrier for independents and hobbyists, and
>>prevent new innovations that don't mesh with the laws.  If it's done
>>in a lowest-common-denominator manner in the way the ADA is, it could
>>even create hurdles to those wishing to create games for a specific
>>subset of the market you wish to help.  For example, some really neat
>  >audio games would be kinda boring for a deaf person.
>>
>>What I'd recommend instead is to try to make your market more visible
>>to the developer community and to approach smaller groups and
>>independents for whom making a game with a smaller target audience
>>might still be profitable or fun.  There's a fair number of developers
>>out there like me that just enjoy writing software and do it as a
>>hobby as well as a profession - you'll find a lot of those in the Open
>>Source community.  If you want to get their attention, write articles
>>for Slashdot and similar places to increase awareness and to educate
>>the community, then get projects started on SourceForge to get new
>>genres going, etc.
>>
>>One of the big challenges any developer will face here though is that
>>unless they themselves have an identical disability, they won't know
>>where to start to make something fun and easy for you to interact
>>with. That's where we need your help.
>>
>>Cheers,
>>Mike Ellison
>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access



From hinn at uiuc.edu  Tue Dec  4 18:49:27 2007
From: hinn at uiuc.edu (d. michelle hinn)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 17:49:27 -0600
Subject: [games_access] Gentle Petition
In-Reply-To: <082a01c836c3$91e648d0$0202a8c0@oneswitch>
References: <082a01c836c3$91e648d0$0202a8c0@oneswitch>
Message-ID: <p0623093ec37b8cadded2@[130.126.29.70]>

I agree -- We haven't gone down the road of the politics at all yet 
and I think if we approach it the right way that it would be well 
received and maybe even result in awareness amongst gamers, 
developers, and people who would be gamers but don't know that they 
could be. So a more gentle petition to say "hey, we agree that games 
are important and here's why adding accessibility is a good idea..."

There's no reason we can't send an informative brief to let 
legislators know about game accessibility even in the US -- when 
done, this is a GOOD thing about games. We send the good things about 
game accessibility and games to start things out versus something 
that is anti-industry, which we don't want to do at this point.

And, hey, maybe in 50 years there won't be a need for legislation 
because there will be some incredible breakthrough that none of us 
can even imagine yet! :)

Michelle

>Robert (and others) - regarding the petition why don't you consider a
>compromise? I know in the UK you can quite easily go down the political path
>to get things to the government:
>
><>http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/SupportAT/
>
>What about starting a very simple petition - "We the undersigned want to see
>more accessibility features in games...." - with a bit of an explanation
>(But not too much) - and some translations into other languages.
>
>It would be nice to have something to take to developers, indies,
>home-coders to say lots do want this - it's not just us few people
>contacting you! And a few years down the line if we're still getting no
>where - but have everything in place that we can do - then maybe the
>political path is the way to go.
>
>Let's face it - in 50 years - accessibility in software will very likely be
>legislated for (and let's hope it will be so much easier to bring into
>being) - so Robert's not so far off the mark. It's just so.... slow....
>
>What do you think re. the gentle petition?
>
>Barrie
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
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From devellison at gmail.com  Tue Dec  4 19:07:54 2007
From: devellison at gmail.com (Michael Ellison)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 18:07:54 -0600
Subject: [games_access] New Member and thoughts about legislation
In-Reply-To: <01be01c83691$f00d4b20$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
References: <Acg2MWz+gARIYi8YSly4HcsNQo8Y0QAXjUPg>
	<01be01c83691$f00d4b20$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
Message-ID: <f2235baa0712041607s4862516frb139fa4f7978a74a@mail.gmail.com>

Greetings again,
   I think I managed to mail the bounce folder directly the first
time, thanks for catching that Michelle!

I'm gonna back out of the legislation/petition discussion for now.

As far as why the game industry, and the software industry as a whole,
don't currently make their products accessible - here's the reasons I
see:
1.) It's expensive, and the relative financial return on investment is
small.  Same reason why there aren't many games ported to Macintosh or
Linux.
2.) We don't know how, or aren't aware of the specific problems our
products may present to each type of disability.  I've worked on
products where all the indicators were little circles of different
colors.  Changing them to be different shapes as well as different
colors took about 5 minutes, but the original implementors hadn't ever
thought about anyone having difficulty telling the difference between
green, yellow, and red circles and no one had complained.  Someone
just had to point out the problem and provide an easy solution.

Here's my thoughts on solutions to the above. I don't know if I'm
adding anything new idea-wise, but as an engineer looking for ways to
help I'm still currently looking for a problem to solve ;)

1.) First, solve any problems that can be solved by third-party
software for multiple games.  This is where you'll get the most bang
for the buck, and it means you get benefit from it now on multiple
products. It also provides examples for the software industry to
follow on what actually works.  I don't know what the problems that
are left in this category are right now - I see a lot of specialist
software to solve different accessibility problems, but I don't know
what works and what doesn't or what's been left out.

2.) Second, make generic libraries that can be integrated by game
developers that provide those functions as easily and transparently as
possible - and preferably make them open and free for the developers
to use using BSD-style licenses (not GPL ones).  If possible, get
these libraries integrated with the big game development libraries
like Miles Sound System, Microsoft's DirectX and XBox SDKs, Sony's
SDKs, etc. so that any new major game gets the features for free.  The
cheaper and easier it is for game developers to make their games
accessible, the more likely they will.

3.) Third, keep doing what ya'll are doing for awareness. It got me
here, others will come.  I do think that specifically targetting Open
Source groups will get you a lot of mileage in the long run, although
there will be a lot of false starts in the process (fair warning: when
people are doing things for free in their spare time, the stuff can
get derailed easily by events in the individuals' lives. Try not to
get too frustrated by this. Best defense against it is to get multiple
people working together on projects so that leadership can be
transferred if a problem arises).

4.) Finally, keep trying to change the design process of video games
to be more inclusive to those with disabilities.  As you already know,
this part will be extremely hard in a lot of cases, and it will affect
the game as a whole for everyone. In a lot of cases there will be
tradeoffs between accessibility and normal gameplay that require a lot
of thought and time.  The fact that most development efforts are
*already* behind schedule, over budget, and are throwing out features
they wanted left and right won't help.  It's definitely worth doing,
I'm glad ya'll are doing it, but I think it's the hardest and slowest
avenue.

I'd like to have a shot at my #1 up there. If it looks like I'm doing
something useful and enjoying it, I'll toss around the idea for #2
(libraries) and see if I can find others interested in it as well.

So, what software would be useful?

I've taken a look at the QuadController, but aside from pictures and
video I don't have any experience with it.  It looks like the PC
version installs as a native game device with one joystick, some
toggles, and a few buttons. It also looks like they've got some form
of Joystick->Mouse emulation available for it that could work both
with games and with normal applications.

What are the common hurdles you currently face interacting with modern
games that existing hardware and software don't fix? Are there
problems still around that could be generalized and solved by external
software for multiple games?  I can put just about any kind of
interface up inside modern PC games and/or reroute just about any kind
of input switches you can throw at me into any other kind of input or
output.  I may be able to slow down or change the rendering behavior
of a lot of modern PC games, but it'll depend on how they're written.

Let me know if there's something I can do that'd be useful.

Cheers,
Mike Ellison


From eelke.folmer at gmail.com  Tue Dec  4 20:40:03 2007
From: eelke.folmer at gmail.com (Eelke Folmer)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 17:40:03 -0800
Subject: [games_access] Gentle Petition
In-Reply-To: <p0623093ec37b8cadded2@130.126.29.70>
References: <082a01c836c3$91e648d0$0202a8c0@oneswitch>
	<p0623093ec37b8cadded2@130.126.29.70>
Message-ID: <836db6300712041740u6dd45885h99828e29370afa42@mail.gmail.com>

I support the petition but I can also understand the viewpoint of the
game industry why games are not being made accessible, if they even
consider it. If every game had to be made accessible to blind, deaf,
mobility and cognitive impaired gamers it would drive many game
companies out of business. Many game companies are already struggling
for survival (not EA games) only 1 in 7 games is able to make a
profit.

If you think of it there are a large number of everyday things in our
lives that we use that are not accessible at all. A bike is not
accessible at all nor a cell phone. Transportation and communication
are probably more important than entertainment.

I think with our petition we should ask for a "reasonable
accommodation" to make games accessible, like implementing  closed
captions or reconfigurable controls,  otherwise I don't think we will
get much support from the games industry. An effort to make game
accessibility mandatory is likely to succeed more with help from the
games industry, than with an industry will try to protect 25.000 jobs.

Cheers Eelke



On 04/12/2007, d. michelle hinn <hinn at uiuc.edu> wrote:
>
>
> I agree -- We haven't gone down the road of the politics at all yet and I
> think if we approach it the right way that it would be well received and
> maybe even result in awareness amongst gamers, developers, and people who
> would be gamers but don't know that they could be. So a more gentle petition
> to say "hey, we agree that games are important and here's why adding
> accessibility is a good idea..."
>
>
> There's no reason we can't send an informative brief to let legislators know
> about game accessibility even in the US -- when done, this is a GOOD thing
> about games. We send the good things about game accessibility and games to
> start things out versus something that is anti-industry, which we don't want
> to do at this point.
>
>
> And, hey, maybe in 50 years there won't be a need for legislation because
> there will be some incredible breakthrough that none of us can even imagine
> yet! :)
>
>
> Michelle
>
>
>
> Robert (and others) - regarding the petition why don't you consider a
>  compromise? I know in the UK you can quite easily go down the political
> path
>  to get things to the government:
>
>  http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/SupportAT/
>
>  What about starting a very simple petition - "We the undersigned want to
> see
>  more accessibility features in games...." - with a bit of an explanation
>  (But not too much) - and some translations into other languages.
>
>  It would be nice to have something to take to developers, indies,
>  home-coders to say lots do want this - it's not just us few people
>  contacting you! And a few years down the line if we're still getting no
>  where - but have everything in place that we can do - then maybe the
>  political path is the way to go.
>
>  Let's face it - in 50 years - accessibility in software will very likely be
>  legislated for (and let's hope it will be so much easier to bring into
>  being) - so Robert's not so far off the mark. It's just so.... slow....
>
>  What do you think re. the gentle petition?
>
>  Barrie
>
>
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  games_access mailing list
>  games_access at igda.org
>  http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>


-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eelke Folmer                           Assistant Professor
Department of CS&E/171
University of Nevada              Reno, Nevada 89557
Game interaction design        www.helpyouplay.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------------


From hinn at uiuc.edu  Tue Dec  4 22:03:32 2007
From: hinn at uiuc.edu (hinn at uiuc.edu)
Date: Tue,  4 Dec 2007 21:03:32 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [games_access] Gentle Petition
Message-ID: <20071204210332.AYT07193@expms2.cites.uiuc.edu>

This is true, Eelke. There are a lot of things that are inaccessible in our daily lives -- games are just one small slice of the pie.

I think if we take an approach that is more like a "pledge of support" for game accessibility that says "yeah, we agree that there is an important audience out there that we want to reach and we're in support of the GA SIG's efforts to help us make games more accessible" I think we'd go pretty far with regard to awareness and positive change without going down a really ugly political route.

I just read today's ECA email, which reminded me that there are so many legislative clogs that are really working against the music industry, the film industry, etc that to add to that fray would probably end up being "yet another" cog in the system. We don't want that -- we want change, not sitting around studying up on legal crap. I think that's at the heart of what Robert is saying -- we just need to pitch in and figure out the right wording to get the results in action!

It takes so long for games to get developed that it's hard to see the changes -- that and so many games get the "no go" in a "go/no go" meeting that might have had accessible features in them. It's frustrating...but it's the real world. And we have to be on top of changes and document instances where we learn that "game x" works really well with "controller a"

There's so much to do -- we just need to keep the positive energy moving!

Michelle

---- Original message ----
>Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 17:40:03 -0800
>From: "Eelke Folmer" <eelke.folmer at gmail.com>  
>Subject: Re: [games_access] Gentle Petition  
>To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
>
>I support the petition but I can also understand the viewpoint of the
>game industry why games are not being made accessible, if they even
>consider it. If every game had to be made accessible to blind, deaf,
>mobility and cognitive impaired gamers it would drive many game
>companies out of business. Many game companies are already struggling
>for survival (not EA games) only 1 in 7 games is able to make a
>profit.
>
>If you think of it there are a large number of everyday things in our
>lives that we use that are not accessible at all. A bike is not
>accessible at all nor a cell phone. Transportation and communication
>are probably more important than entertainment.
>
>I think with our petition we should ask for a "reasonable
>accommodation" to make games accessible, like implementing  closed
>captions or reconfigurable controls,  otherwise I don't think we will
>get much support from the games industry. An effort to make game
>accessibility mandatory is likely to succeed more with help from the
>games industry, than with an industry will try to protect 25.000 jobs.
>
>Cheers Eelke
>
>
>
>On 04/12/2007, d. michelle hinn <hinn at uiuc.edu> wrote:
>>
>>
>> I agree -- We haven't gone down the road of the politics at all yet and I
>> think if we approach it the right way that it would be well received and
>> maybe even result in awareness amongst gamers, developers, and people who
>> would be gamers but don't know that they could be. So a more gentle petition
>> to say "hey, we agree that games are important and here's why adding
>> accessibility is a good idea..."
>>
>>
>> There's no reason we can't send an informative brief to let legislators know
>> about game accessibility even in the US -- when done, this is a GOOD thing
>> about games. We send the good things about game accessibility and games to
>> start things out versus something that is anti-industry, which we don't want
>> to do at this point.
>>
>>
>> And, hey, maybe in 50 years there won't be a need for legislation because
>> there will be some incredible breakthrough that none of us can even imagine
>> yet! :)
>>
>>
>> Michelle
>>
>>
>>
>> Robert (and others) - regarding the petition why don't you consider a
>>  compromise? I know in the UK you can quite easily go down the political
>> path
>>  to get things to the government:
>>
>>  http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/SupportAT/
>>
>>  What about starting a very simple petition - "We the undersigned want to
>> see
>>  more accessibility features in games...." - with a bit of an explanation
>>  (But not too much) - and some translations into other languages.
>>
>>  It would be nice to have something to take to developers, indies,
>>  home-coders to say lots do want this - it's not just us few people
>>  contacting you! And a few years down the line if we're still getting no
>>  where - but have everything in place that we can do - then maybe the
>>  political path is the way to go.
>>
>>  Let's face it - in 50 years - accessibility in software will very likely be
>>  legislated for (and let's hope it will be so much easier to bring into
>>  being) - so Robert's not so far off the mark. It's just so.... slow....
>>
>>  What do you think re. the gentle petition?
>>
>>  Barrie
>>
>>
>>
>>  _______________________________________________
>>  games_access mailing list
>>  games_access at igda.org
>>  http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> games_access mailing list
>> games_access at igda.org
>> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>
>>
>
>
>-- 
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Eelke Folmer                           Assistant Professor
>Department of CS&E/171
>University of Nevada              Reno, Nevada 89557
>Game interaction design        www.helpyouplay.com
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
.......................................
these are mediocre times and people are 
losing hope. it's hard for many people 
to believe that there are extraordinary 
things inside themselves, as well as 
others. i hope you can keep an open 
mind.
 -- "unbreakable"
.......................................


From hinn at uiuc.edu  Tue Dec  4 22:32:46 2007
From: hinn at uiuc.edu (d. michelle hinn)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 21:32:46 -0600
Subject: [games_access] New Member and thoughts about legislation
In-Reply-To: <f2235baa0712041607s4862516frb139fa4f7978a74a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <Acg2MWz+gARIYi8YSly4HcsNQo8Y0QAXjUPg>
	<01be01c83691$f00d4b20$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
	<f2235baa0712041607s4862516frb139fa4f7978a74a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <p06230944c37bcbb17a7b@[130.126.29.70]>

Hey Michael -- great to see you here and great to see your support. 
Don't worry -- I'm sure we'll come up with an idea for you to program 
away on! :)

Welcome again! You did enter into the midst of a heated debate -- I 
should have warned you that it was in progress. Not that posting was 
bad -- it's always encouraged. But you probably just didn't realize 
how heated things were on the topic. We have a lot of passionate 
people on board!

Michelle

>Greetings again,
>    I think I managed to mail the bounce folder directly the first
>time, thanks for catching that Michelle!
>
>I'm gonna back out of the legislation/petition discussion for now.
>
>As far as why the game industry, and the software industry as a whole,
>don't currently make their products accessible - here's the reasons I
>see:
>1.) It's expensive, and the relative financial return on investment is
>small.  Same reason why there aren't many games ported to Macintosh or
>Linux.
>2.) We don't know how, or aren't aware of the specific problems our
>products may present to each type of disability.  I've worked on
>products where all the indicators were little circles of different
>colors.  Changing them to be different shapes as well as different
>colors took about 5 minutes, but the original implementors hadn't ever
>thought about anyone having difficulty telling the difference between
>green, yellow, and red circles and no one had complained.  Someone
>just had to point out the problem and provide an easy solution.
>
>Here's my thoughts on solutions to the above. I don't know if I'm
>adding anything new idea-wise, but as an engineer looking for ways to
>help I'm still currently looking for a problem to solve ;)
>
>1.) First, solve any problems that can be solved by third-party
>software for multiple games.  This is where you'll get the most bang
>for the buck, and it means you get benefit from it now on multiple
>products. It also provides examples for the software industry to
>follow on what actually works.  I don't know what the problems that
>are left in this category are right now - I see a lot of specialist
>software to solve different accessibility problems, but I don't know
>what works and what doesn't or what's been left out.
>
>2.) Second, make generic libraries that can be integrated by game
>developers that provide those functions as easily and transparently as
>possible - and preferably make them open and free for the developers
>to use using BSD-style licenses (not GPL ones).  If possible, get
>these libraries integrated with the big game development libraries
>like Miles Sound System, Microsoft's DirectX and XBox SDKs, Sony's
>SDKs, etc. so that any new major game gets the features for free.  The
>cheaper and easier it is for game developers to make their games
>accessible, the more likely they will.
>
>3.) Third, keep doing what ya'll are doing for awareness. It got me
>here, others will come.  I do think that specifically targetting Open
>Source groups will get you a lot of mileage in the long run, although
>there will be a lot of false starts in the process (fair warning: when
>people are doing things for free in their spare time, the stuff can
>get derailed easily by events in the individuals' lives. Try not to
>get too frustrated by this. Best defense against it is to get multiple
>people working together on projects so that leadership can be
>transferred if a problem arises).
>
>4.) Finally, keep trying to change the design process of video games
>to be more inclusive to those with disabilities.  As you already know,
>this part will be extremely hard in a lot of cases, and it will affect
>the game as a whole for everyone. In a lot of cases there will be
>tradeoffs between accessibility and normal gameplay that require a lot
>of thought and time.  The fact that most development efforts are
>*already* behind schedule, over budget, and are throwing out features
>they wanted left and right won't help.  It's definitely worth doing,
>I'm glad ya'll are doing it, but I think it's the hardest and slowest
>avenue.
>
>I'd like to have a shot at my #1 up there. If it looks like I'm doing
>something useful and enjoying it, I'll toss around the idea for #2
>(libraries) and see if I can find others interested in it as well.
>
>So, what software would be useful?
>
>I've taken a look at the QuadController, but aside from pictures and
>video I don't have any experience with it.  It looks like the PC
>version installs as a native game device with one joystick, some
>toggles, and a few buttons. It also looks like they've got some form
>of Joystick->Mouse emulation available for it that could work both
>with games and with normal applications.
>
>What are the common hurdles you currently face interacting with modern
>games that existing hardware and software don't fix? Are there
>problems still around that could be generalized and solved by external
>software for multiple games?  I can put just about any kind of
>interface up inside modern PC games and/or reroute just about any kind
>of input switches you can throw at me into any other kind of input or
>output.  I may be able to slow down or change the rendering behavior
>of a lot of modern PC games, but it'll depend on how they're written.
>
>Let me know if there's something I can do that'd be useful.
>
>Cheers,
>Mike Ellison
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access



From eelke.folmer at gmail.com  Tue Dec  4 22:48:06 2007
From: eelke.folmer at gmail.com (Eelke Folmer)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 19:48:06 -0800
Subject: [games_access] New Member and thoughts about legislation
In-Reply-To: <f2235baa0712041607s4862516frb139fa4f7978a74a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <01be01c83691$f00d4b20$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
	<f2235baa0712041607s4862516frb139fa4f7978a74a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <836db6300712041948o2e86dbc5s298a8ff23989ae40@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Mike,

More programmers in this SIG that can actually help games make
accessible are always welcome! If you are interested in helping me
with some small accessibility programming jobs shoot me an email
offline. I have a bunch of students working for me already but since
I'm thinking of new accessible game projects at a faster rate than my
students are able to finish I could use the help. ;-)

Cheers Eelke

On 04/12/2007, Michael Ellison <devellison at gmail.com> wrote:
> Greetings again,
>    I think I managed to mail the bounce folder directly the first
> time, thanks for catching that Michelle!
>
> I'm gonna back out of the legislation/petition discussion for now.
>
> As far as why the game industry, and the software industry as a whole,
> don't currently make their products accessible - here's the reasons I
> see:
> 1.) It's expensive, and the relative financial return on investment is
> small.  Same reason why there aren't many games ported to Macintosh or
> Linux.
> 2.) We don't know how, or aren't aware of the specific problems our
> products may present to each type of disability.  I've worked on
> products where all the indicators were little circles of different
> colors.  Changing them to be different shapes as well as different
> colors took about 5 minutes, but the original implementors hadn't ever
> thought about anyone having difficulty telling the difference between
> green, yellow, and red circles and no one had complained.  Someone
> just had to point out the problem and provide an easy solution.
>
> Here's my thoughts on solutions to the above. I don't know if I'm
> adding anything new idea-wise, but as an engineer looking for ways to
> help I'm still currently looking for a problem to solve ;)
>
> 1.) First, solve any problems that can be solved by third-party
> software for multiple games.  This is where you'll get the most bang
> for the buck, and it means you get benefit from it now on multiple
> products. It also provides examples for the software industry to
> follow on what actually works.  I don't know what the problems that
> are left in this category are right now - I see a lot of specialist
> software to solve different accessibility problems, but I don't know
> what works and what doesn't or what's been left out.
>
> 2.) Second, make generic libraries that can be integrated by game
> developers that provide those functions as easily and transparently as
> possible - and preferably make them open and free for the developers
> to use using BSD-style licenses (not GPL ones).  If possible, get
> these libraries integrated with the big game development libraries
> like Miles Sound System, Microsoft's DirectX and XBox SDKs, Sony's
> SDKs, etc. so that any new major game gets the features for free.  The
> cheaper and easier it is for game developers to make their games
> accessible, the more likely they will.
>
> 3.) Third, keep doing what ya'll are doing for awareness. It got me
> here, others will come.  I do think that specifically targetting Open
> Source groups will get you a lot of mileage in the long run, although
> there will be a lot of false starts in the process (fair warning: when
> people are doing things for free in their spare time, the stuff can
> get derailed easily by events in the individuals' lives. Try not to
> get too frustrated by this. Best defense against it is to get multiple
> people working together on projects so that leadership can be
> transferred if a problem arises).
>
> 4.) Finally, keep trying to change the design process of video games
> to be more inclusive to those with disabilities.  As you already know,
> this part will be extremely hard in a lot of cases, and it will affect
> the game as a whole for everyone. In a lot of cases there will be
> tradeoffs between accessibility and normal gameplay that require a lot
> of thought and time.  The fact that most development efforts are
> *already* behind schedule, over budget, and are throwing out features
> they wanted left and right won't help.  It's definitely worth doing,
> I'm glad ya'll are doing it, but I think it's the hardest and slowest
> avenue.
>
> I'd like to have a shot at my #1 up there. If it looks like I'm doing
> something useful and enjoying it, I'll toss around the idea for #2
> (libraries) and see if I can find others interested in it as well.
>
> So, what software would be useful?
>
> I've taken a look at the QuadController, but aside from pictures and
> video I don't have any experience with it.  It looks like the PC
> version installs as a native game device with one joystick, some
> toggles, and a few buttons. It also looks like they've got some form
> of Joystick->Mouse emulation available for it that could work both
> with games and with normal applications.
>
> What are the common hurdles you currently face interacting with modern
> games that existing hardware and software don't fix? Are there
> problems still around that could be generalized and solved by external
> software for multiple games?  I can put just about any kind of
> interface up inside modern PC games and/or reroute just about any kind
> of input switches you can throw at me into any other kind of input or
> output.  I may be able to slow down or change the rendering behavior
> of a lot of modern PC games, but it'll depend on how they're written.
>
> Let me know if there's something I can do that'd be useful.
>
> Cheers,
> Mike Ellison
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>


-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eelke Folmer                           Assistant Professor
Department of CS&E/171
University of Nevada              Reno, Nevada 89557
Game interaction design        www.helpyouplay.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------------


From devellison at gmail.com  Tue Dec  4 23:04:45 2007
From: devellison at gmail.com (Michael Ellison)
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 22:04:45 -0600
Subject: [games_access] New Member and thoughts about legislation
In-Reply-To: <p06230944c37bcbb17a7b@130.126.29.70>
References: <01be01c83691$f00d4b20$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
	<f2235baa0712041607s4862516frb139fa4f7978a74a@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06230944c37bcbb17a7b@130.126.29.70>
Message-ID: <f2235baa0712042004r59353dd5l7bf180375743192c@mail.gmail.com>

On Dec 4, 2007 9:32 PM, d. michelle hinn <hinn at uiuc.edu> wrote:
> Hey Michael -- great to see you here and great to see your support.
> Don't worry -- I'm sure we'll come up with an idea for you to program
> away on! :)

Thanks Michelle, glad to be here ;) Actually just got one project from
the list that may keep me busy for a while, but I'm totally interested
in others.  If my hands are full, having a list for other developers
of "Here's what's needed and what you can do" would be excellent.

> Welcome again! You did enter into the midst of a heated debate -- I
> should have warned you that it was in progress. Not that posting was
> bad -- it's always encouraged. But you probably just didn't realize
> how heated things were on the topic. We have a lot of passionate
> people on board!

LOL.. no worries, I kinda expected it seeing the first several
messages before I posted and Robert - you didn't offend me at all,
it's good to hear your perspective.  I had seen some of the press
you've gotten when looking for alternative controllers and that's
actually what brought me to this group.  I'm just a hell of a lot
better at coding than I am dealing with people, and think that's where
I should put my time and energy.  My position isn't going to budge,
and I doubt anyone else's position who disagrees with me will change
due to me arguing with them, so it's probably best for me to just do
what I do ;)

Cheers,
Mike


From hinn at uiuc.edu  Wed Dec  5 01:08:18 2007
From: hinn at uiuc.edu (hinn at uiuc.edu)
Date: Wed,  5 Dec 2007 00:08:18 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [games_access] New Member and thoughts about legislation
Message-ID: <20071205000818.AYT27829@expms2.cites.uiuc.edu>

Cool! This is awesome! If anything we need more programmers so if you know any like-minded colleagues, I'm sure Eelke would love to have them join us as well! 

---- Original message ----
>Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 19:48:06 -0800
>From: "Eelke Folmer" <eelke.folmer at gmail.com>  
>Subject: Re: [games_access] New Member and thoughts about legislation  
>To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
>
>Hi Mike,
>
>More programmers in this SIG that can actually help games make
>accessible are always welcome! If you are interested in helping me
>with some small accessibility programming jobs shoot me an email
>offline. I have a bunch of students working for me already but since
>I'm thinking of new accessible game projects at a faster rate than my
>students are able to finish I could use the help. ;-)
>
>Cheers Eelke
>
>On 04/12/2007, Michael Ellison <devellison at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Greetings again,
>>    I think I managed to mail the bounce folder directly the first
>> time, thanks for catching that Michelle!
>>
>> I'm gonna back out of the legislation/petition discussion for now.
>>
>> As far as why the game industry, and the software industry as a whole,
>> don't currently make their products accessible - here's the reasons I
>> see:
>> 1.) It's expensive, and the relative financial return on investment is
>> small.  Same reason why there aren't many games ported to Macintosh or
>> Linux.
>> 2.) We don't know how, or aren't aware of the specific problems our
>> products may present to each type of disability.  I've worked on
>> products where all the indicators were little circles of different
>> colors.  Changing them to be different shapes as well as different
>> colors took about 5 minutes, but the original implementors hadn't ever
>> thought about anyone having difficulty telling the difference between
>> green, yellow, and red circles and no one had complained.  Someone
>> just had to point out the problem and provide an easy solution.
>>
>> Here's my thoughts on solutions to the above. I don't know if I'm
>> adding anything new idea-wise, but as an engineer looking for ways to
>> help I'm still currently looking for a problem to solve ;)
>>
>> 1.) First, solve any problems that can be solved by third-party
>> software for multiple games.  This is where you'll get the most bang
>> for the buck, and it means you get benefit from it now on multiple
>> products. It also provides examples for the software industry to
>> follow on what actually works.  I don't know what the problems that
>> are left in this category are right now - I see a lot of specialist
>> software to solve different accessibility problems, but I don't know
>> what works and what doesn't or what's been left out.
>>
>> 2.) Second, make generic libraries that can be integrated by game
>> developers that provide those functions as easily and transparently as
>> possible - and preferably make them open and free for the developers
>> to use using BSD-style licenses (not GPL ones).  If possible, get
>> these libraries integrated with the big game development libraries
>> like Miles Sound System, Microsoft's DirectX and XBox SDKs, Sony's
>> SDKs, etc. so that any new major game gets the features for free.  The
>> cheaper and easier it is for game developers to make their games
>> accessible, the more likely they will.
>>
>> 3.) Third, keep doing what ya'll are doing for awareness. It got me
>> here, others will come.  I do think that specifically targetting Open
>> Source groups will get you a lot of mileage in the long run, although
>> there will be a lot of false starts in the process (fair warning: when
>> people are doing things for free in their spare time, the stuff can
>> get derailed easily by events in the individuals' lives. Try not to
>> get too frustrated by this. Best defense against it is to get multiple
>> people working together on projects so that leadership can be
>> transferred if a problem arises).
>>
>> 4.) Finally, keep trying to change the design process of video games
>> to be more inclusive to those with disabilities.  As you already know,
>> this part will be extremely hard in a lot of cases, and it will affect
>> the game as a whole for everyone. In a lot of cases there will be
>> tradeoffs between accessibility and normal gameplay that require a lot
>> of thought and time.  The fact that most development efforts are
>> *already* behind schedule, over budget, and are throwing out features
>> they wanted left and right won't help.  It's definitely worth doing,
>> I'm glad ya'll are doing it, but I think it's the hardest and slowest
>> avenue.
>>
>> I'd like to have a shot at my #1 up there. If it looks like I'm doing
>> something useful and enjoying it, I'll toss around the idea for #2
>> (libraries) and see if I can find others interested in it as well.
>>
>> So, what software would be useful?
>>
>> I've taken a look at the QuadController, but aside from pictures and
>> video I don't have any experience with it.  It looks like the PC
>> version installs as a native game device with one joystick, some
>> toggles, and a few buttons. It also looks like they've got some form
>> of Joystick->Mouse emulation available for it that could work both
>> with games and with normal applications.
>>
>> What are the common hurdles you currently face interacting with modern
>> games that existing hardware and software don't fix? Are there
>> problems still around that could be generalized and solved by external
>> software for multiple games?  I can put just about any kind of
>> interface up inside modern PC games and/or reroute just about any kind
>> of input switches you can throw at me into any other kind of input or
>> output.  I may be able to slow down or change the rendering behavior
>> of a lot of modern PC games, but it'll depend on how they're written.
>>
>> Let me know if there's something I can do that'd be useful.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Mike Ellison
>> _______________________________________________
>> games_access mailing list
>> games_access at igda.org
>> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>
>
>
>-- 
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Eelke Folmer                           Assistant Professor
>Department of CS&E/171
>University of Nevada              Reno, Nevada 89557
>Game interaction design        www.helpyouplay.com
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
.......................................
these are mediocre times and people are 
losing hope. it's hard for many people 
to believe that there are extraordinary 
things inside themselves, as well as 
others. i hope you can keep an open 
mind.
 -- "unbreakable"
.......................................


From barrie.ellis at oneswitch.org.uk  Wed Dec  5 04:27:55 2007
From: barrie.ellis at oneswitch.org.uk (Barrie Ellis)
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 09:27:55 -0000
Subject: [games_access] New Member and thoughts about legislation
References: <Acg2MWz+gARIYi8YSly4HcsNQo8Y0QAXjUPg><01be01c83691$f00d4b20$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
	<f2235baa0712041607s4862516frb139fa4f7978a74a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001501c83721$1ed28260$0202a8c0@oneswitch>

Hi Michael,

Always nice to get new people on board and showing interest. I'm wondering 
if you might be able to assist the new Noah project:

http://gameaccessibility.blogspot.com/2007/12/4noah.html
http://games4noah.sitesled.com/

4Noah is a PC utility that enables people using a single button (in this 
case the left-mouse click which can be easily hooked up to any accessibility 
switch using most switch interfaces: 
http://www.oneswitch.org.uk/1/AGS/AGS-switch/2/PCinterfaces.htm - to control 
games that use more buttons (presently from two to six - but this could 
potentially be expanded in all sorts of clever ways).

I'll buzz you off list with a few more thoughts and introduce you...

Regarding your earlier question:

> I've taken a look at the QuadController, but aside from pictures and
> video I don't have any experience with it.  It looks like the PC
> version installs as a native game device with one joystick, some
> toggles, and a few buttons. It also looks like they've got some form
> of Joystick->Mouse emulation available for it that could work both
> with games and with normal applications.

Yes - the majority of PC based controllers are recognised as joysticks or 
keyboard controllers. The Quadcontroller would be recognised as a standard 
Playstation 2 controller via a PS2 to USB adapter. Robert Florio could tell 
you better than I the issues with this controller - but my assumption is 
that if users are being asked to press too many buttons simulaneously with 
no remapping function - this can be very diffiult to impossible. For 
instance if you had the X button mapped to SIP on a tube and O button mapped 
to PUFF on that same tube - this is physically impossible to achieve. 
Remapping would make this function more possible by mapping button O to 
something you can activate at the same time.

Remapping is really important for one handed gamers too. Many will be using 
standard joypads like this guy: 
http://www.solcon.nl/avee/ohgp/indexeng.html - but not all will be able to 
do this - so remapping can be essential. Many one-handed gamers are using 
specialised Japanese controllers too: 
http://www.oneswitch.org.uk/1/AGS/AGS-onehand.htm - As you can see from this 
GA.com video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1k3DRvTiots - one handed gaming 
without the ability to remap can be a stretch. It was very uncomfortable 
too.

Also - people using tailor made set-ups (such as the LEPMIS PS2-Switch 
Access Pod: http://www.oneswitch.org.uk/1/AGS/AGS-bespoke.htm) - having to 
physically reconnect controls takes independence away from gamers, whereby 
they may have to rely upon others to get them set-up for each different 
game. If they could reconfigure controls in software - then away they'd go.

Finally - for gamers using very simplified controls (e.g. a basic arcade 
stick - or even one, two or three large buttons) - being able to pick and 
choose what works with what can make a big difference.

Barrie
www.OneSwitch.org.uk 





From thomas at pininteractive.com  Wed Dec  5 05:29:27 2007
From: thomas at pininteractive.com (Thomas Westin)
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 11:29:27 +0100
Subject: [games_access] Gentle Petition
In-Reply-To: <p0623093ec37b8cadded2@[130.126.29.70]>
References: <082a01c836c3$91e648d0$0202a8c0@oneswitch>
	<p0623093ec37b8cadded2@[130.126.29.70]>
Message-ID: <F3551A40-BF1F-42E1-B580-3887037C8FA0@pininteractive.com>

a couple of years ago I tried to talk to the Swedish government with  
a similar approach and get their attention by writing a letter to the  
minister of culture, but only got a polite reply that they didn't  
have time for a meeting to discuss with me

perhaps things have changed now (new administration) so I can give it  
a try again

/Thomas

5 dec 2007 kl. 00.49 skrev d. michelle hinn:

> I agree -- We haven't gone down the road of the politics at all yet  
> and I think if we approach it the right way that it would be well  
> received and maybe even result in awareness amongst gamers,  
> developers, and people who would be gamers but don't know that they  
> could be. So a more gentle petition to say "hey, we agree that  
> games are important and here's why adding accessibility is a good  
> idea..."
>
> There's no reason we can't send an informative brief to let  
> legislators know about game accessibility even in the US -- when  
> done, this is a GOOD thing about games. We send the good things  
> about game accessibility and games to start things out versus  
> something that is anti-industry, which we don't want to do at this  
> point.
>
> And, hey, maybe in 50 years there won't be a need for legislation  
> because there will be some incredible breakthrough that none of us  
> can even imagine yet! :)
>
> Michelle
>
>> Robert (and others) - regarding the petition why don't you consider a
>> compromise? I know in the UK you can quite easily go down the  
>> political path
>> to get things to the government:
>>
>> http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/SupportAT/
>>
>> What about starting a very simple petition - "We the undersigned  
>> want to see
>> more accessibility features in games...." - with a bit of an  
>> explanation
>> (But not too much) - and some translations into other languages.
>>
>> It would be nice to have something to take to developers, indies,
>> home-coders to say lots do want this - it's not just us few people
>> contacting you! And a few years down the line if we're still  
>> getting no
>> where - but have everything in place that we can do - then maybe the
>> political path is the way to go.
>>
>> Let's face it - in 50 years - accessibility in software will very  
>> likely be
>> legislated for (and let's hope it will be so much easier to bring  
>> into
>> being) - so Robert's not so far off the mark. It's just so....  
>> slow....
>>
>> What do you think re. the gentle petition?
>>
>> Barrie
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> games_access mailing list
>> games_access at igda.org
>> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access

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From thomas at pininteractive.com  Wed Dec  5 05:43:21 2007
From: thomas at pininteractive.com (Thomas Westin)
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 11:43:21 +0100
Subject: [games_access] GAIM 0.02
Message-ID: <88257726-0ABE-4696-B100-BB8857EADE21@pininteractive.com>

Hello

version 0.02 of GAIM is now online

please comment

http://people.dsv.su.se/~thomasw/gaim

Kind regards
Thomas



From hinn at uiuc.edu  Wed Dec  5 11:52:39 2007
From: hinn at uiuc.edu (d. michelle hinn)
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 10:52:39 -0600
Subject: [games_access] Gentle Petition
In-Reply-To: <F3551A40-BF1F-42E1-B580-3887037C8FA0@pininteractive.com>
References: <082a01c836c3$91e648d0$0202a8c0@oneswitch>
	<p0623093ec37b8cadded2@[130.126.29.70]>
	<F3551A40-BF1F-42E1-B580-3887037C8FA0@pininteractive.com>
Message-ID: <p06230900c37c83924c5e@[130.126.29.74]>

Yes, going down a serious government track often ends up that way 
here too -- I think just getting the message out that games can help 
from a positive psychology standpoint helps raise awareness amongst 
legislators. I received an email yesterday -- the daily ECA bulletin 
-- apparently a report came out yesterday that put the game industry 
in hot water again. Apparently "games" are even worse for us than 
ever was the gist of this report and the ESRP got slammed. So the 
industry is STILL having to defend it's existance daily. So anything 
we can do to help put games in a positive light, I think the industry 
would get behind. So a "pledge of support" for game accessibility may 
be what we want our next move to be.

For more on the ECA (I'm a founding member!), go to 
http://www.theeca.com/ -- The IGDA has agreed (and are totally 
backing the ECA, which is consumer aimed rather than developer aimed) 
to let us partner with them in fighting to keep the game industry 
healthy. Reid and I talked with them at E for All and I've been 
emailing them -- they are helping us get some major names (I'll 
announce things officially when we have the written support) in 
gaming to join in with us.

I think to avoid the lawsuit mess that is tying up our courts and 
actually really messing over different entertainment industries 
because what they thought was a good idea actually ended up thrown 
back in their faces, we should definitely work on this "positive 
awareness" versus legislation idea. Robert has started things going 
-- if we could all take a little time in the next week or so (I know 
so many of us are slammed giving exams and/or taking exams right 
about now because we are either instructors or students (or both!) so 
this week and next is probably pretty rough on time) and help the 
petition become something we as a SIG can stand behind and feel that 
it is not anti-industry but that it is positive industry, that would 
be great.

You know...we've also never gotten the industry to get behind us in a 
formal way so why not take this energy and do this now? Sure, it's 
not about changing laws but it's perhaps even more important. Because 
the industry needs us and others that know that gaming is important 
because it's a route to leisure, which is what makes life, well, fun! 
:) So if we change our wording in the petition to something positive 
and inspiring, well that could really, really work. And remember -- 
GDC is SOON! And Robert is one of the few of us that has a pass 
(Thanks again to Eelke who generously gave his pass up so Robert 
could attend) so, hey, let's turn this opportunity into something we 
can go into to GDC with -- it's a great talking point!

Michelle

>a couple of years ago I tried to talk to the Swedish government with 
>a similar approach and get their attention by writing a letter to 
>the minister of culture, but only got a polite reply that they 
>didn't have time for a meeting to discuss with me
>
>perhaps things have changed now (new administration) so I can give 
>it a try again
>
>/Thomas
>
>5 dec 2007 kl. 00.49 skrev d. michelle hinn:
>
>>I agree -- We haven't gone down the road of the politics at all yet 
>>and I think if we approach it the right way that it would be well 
>>received and maybe even result in awareness amongst gamers, 
>>developers, and people who would be gamers but don't know that they 
>>could be. So a more gentle petition to say "hey, we agree that 
>>games are important and here's why adding accessibility is a good 
>>idea..."
>>
>>There's no reason we can't send an informative brief to let 
>>legislators know about game accessibility even in the US -- when 
>>done, this is a GOOD thing about games. We send the good things 
>>about game accessibility and games to start things out versus 
>>something that is anti-industry, which we don't want to do at this 
>>point.
>>
>>And, hey, maybe in 50 years there won't be a need for legislation 
>>because there will be some incredible breakthrough that none of us 
>>can even imagine yet! :)
>>
>>Michelle
>>
>>>Robert (and others) - regarding the petition why don't you consider a
>>>compromise? I know in the UK you can quite easily go down the political path
>>>to get things to the government:
>>>
>>><>http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/SupportAT/
>>>
>>>What about starting a very simple petition - "We the undersigned want to see
>>>more accessibility features in games...." - with a bit of an explanation
>>>(But not too much) - and some translations into other languages.
>>>
>>>It would be nice to have something to take to developers, indies,
>>>home-coders to say lots do want this - it's not just us few people
>>>contacting you! And a few years down the line if we're still getting no
>>>where - but have everything in place that we can do - then maybe the
>>>political path is the way to go.
>>>
>>>Let's face it - in 50 years - accessibility in software will very likely be
>>>legislated for (and let's hope it will be so much easier to bring into
>>>being) - so Robert's not so far off the mark. It's just so.... slow....
>>>
>>>What do you think re. the gentle petition?
>>>
>>>Barrie
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>games_access mailing list
>>><mailto:games_access at igda.org>games_access at igda.org
>>><http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>games_access mailing list
>><mailto:games_access at igda.org>games_access at igda.org
>><http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
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From arthit73 at cablespeed.com  Wed Dec  5 12:45:04 2007
From: arthit73 at cablespeed.com (Robert Florio)
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 12:45:04 -0500
Subject: [games_access] Gentle Petition.  Suggestions?
In-Reply-To: AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIwkYSwA
References: <082a01c836c3$91e648d0$0202a8c0@oneswitch><p0623093ec37b8cadded2@[130.126.29.70]><F3551A40-BF1F-42E1-B580-3887037C8FA0@pininteractive.com>
	AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIwkYSwA
Message-ID: <005701c83766$942eb520$6501a8c0@Inspiron>

Okay cool.  If you got a chance to look at the petition I wrote I guess the
suggestion is to make it seem more positive?  Which part?  I think the
beginning part of the history that I wrote says " it is 2007 in the industry
as failed to make games accessible" is there a better way to say that
because that's when it is?  Is that what you mean if that is I will look
through it and adjust other things.

 

I do like the idea of not keeping it short and simple like the petition web
site suggests.  So it's hard to fit a lot in.

 

I think Berrie also suggested a softer petition.  Let me know what you mean
that would be great.

 

Ellke gave up his pass?

 

Wow are you sure?  In my mind I thought I wasn't going but I think now I
have to reconsider my options and then get back to you as soon as possible
if it is absolutely still possible for me to take the offer.  I would say if
I can afford the trip, and I will talk it over with the people helping me to
get there, let him not completely decide to not go.

 

I appreciate the talk here and I don't mean to piss anybody off I just think
it's better to talk about the issues in the open so we are all more open
with each other.  I understand about the timing.  I'll be graduating
December 13 so between now and then I'll be busy myself.

 

Robert

 

  _____  

From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
On Behalf Of d. michelle hinn
Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 11:53 AM
To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
Subject: Re: [games_access] Gentle Petition

 

Yes, going down a serious government track often ends up that way here too
-- I think just getting the message out that games can help from a positive
psychology standpoint helps raise awareness amongst legislators. I received
an email yesterday -- the daily ECA bulletin -- apparently a report came out
yesterday that put the game industry in hot water again. Apparently "games"
are even worse for us than ever was the gist of this report and the ESRP got
slammed. So the industry is STILL having to defend it's existance daily. So
anything we can do to help put games in a positive light, I think the
industry would get behind. So a "pledge of support" for game accessibility
may be what we want our next move to be.

 

For more on the ECA (I'm a founding member!), go to http://www.theeca.com/
-- The IGDA has agreed (and are totally backing the ECA, which is consumer
aimed rather than developer aimed) to let us partner with them in fighting
to keep the game industry healthy. Reid and I talked with them at E for All
and I've been emailing them -- they are helping us get some major names
(I'll announce things officially when we have the written support) in gaming
to join in with us.

 

I think to avoid the lawsuit mess that is tying up our courts and actually
really messing over different entertainment industries because what they
thought was a good idea actually ended up thrown back in their faces, we
should definitely work on this "positive awareness" versus legislation idea.
Robert has started things going -- if we could all take a little time in the
next week or so (I know so many of us are slammed giving exams and/or taking
exams right about now because we are either instructors or students (or
both!) so this week and next is probably pretty rough on time) and help the
petition become something we as a SIG can stand behind and feel that it is
not anti-industry but that it is positive industry, that would be great.

 

You know...we've also never gotten the industry to get behind us in a formal
way so why not take this energy and do this now? Sure, it's not about
changing laws but it's perhaps even more important. Because the industry
needs us and others that know that gaming is important because it's a route
to leisure, which is what makes life, well, fun! :) So if we change our
wording in the petition to something positive and inspiring, well that could
really, really work. And remember -- GDC is SOON! And Robert is one of the
few of us that has a pass (Thanks again to Eelke who generously gave his
pass up so Robert could attend) so, hey, let's turn this opportunity into
something we can go into to GDC with -- it's a great talking point!

 

Michelle

 

a couple of years ago I tried to talk to the Swedish government with a
similar approach and get their attention by writing a letter to the minister
of culture, but only got a polite reply that they didn't have time for a
meeting to discuss with me

 

perhaps things have changed now (new administration) so I can give it a try
again

 

/Thomas

 

5 dec 2007 kl. 00.49 skrev d. michelle hinn:





I agree -- We haven't gone down the road of the politics at all yet and I
think if we approach it the right way that it would be well received and
maybe even result in awareness amongst gamers, developers, and people who
would be gamers but don't know that they could be. So a more gentle petition
to say "hey, we agree that games are important and here's why adding
accessibility is a good idea..."

 

There's no reason we can't send an informative brief to let legislators know
about game accessibility even in the US -- when done, this is a GOOD thing
about games. We send the good things about game accessibility and games to
start things out versus something that is anti-industry, which we don't want
to do at this point.

 

And, hey, maybe in 50 years there won't be a need for legislation because
there will be some incredible breakthrough that none of us can even imagine
yet! :)

 

Michelle





Robert (and others) - regarding the petition why don't you consider a
compromise? I know in the UK you can quite easily go down the political path
to get things to the government:

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/SupportAT/

What about starting a very simple petition - "We the undersigned want to see
more accessibility features in games...." - with a bit of an explanation
(But not too much) - and some translations into other languages.

It would be nice to have something to take to developers, indies,
home-coders to say lots do want this - it's not just us few people
contacting you! And a few years down the line if we're still getting no
where - but have everything in place that we can do - then maybe the
political path is the way to go.

Let's face it - in 50 years - accessibility in software will very likely be
legislated for (and let's hope it will be so much easier to bring into
being) - so Robert's not so far off the mark. It's just so.... slow....

What do you think re. the gentle petition?

Barrie

 


_______________________________________________
games_access mailing list
games_access at igda.org
http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access

 

_______________________________________________

games_access mailing list

games_access at igda.org

http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access

 


_______________________________________________
games_access mailing list
games_access at igda.org
http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access

 

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From arthit73 at cablespeed.com  Wed Dec  5 12:47:21 2007
From: arthit73 at cablespeed.com (Robert Florio)
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 12:47:21 -0500
Subject: [games_access] Robert Baltimore Sun.  FrontPage.
In-Reply-To: AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIwkYSwA
References: <082a01c836c3$91e648d0$0202a8c0@oneswitch><p0623093ec37b8cadded2@[130.126.29.70]><F3551A40-BF1F-42E1-B580-3887037C8FA0@pininteractive.com>
	AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIwkYSwA
Message-ID: <005c01c83766$e33e1e30$6501a8c0@Inspiron>

I thought it was pretty cool what, Mike, said that he heard about us through
an article may be that I was in.  Well here's another one you know me.

 

Front page of the Baltimore Sun on Tuesday but here's the link.  It's very
emotional hold on, but this guy has done the best job makes it sound like a
book.  It's about the painting I am trying to get auctioned for the Babe
Ruth Museum, there haven't been any bids which is disappointing, but I think
the museum should have it anyway.  We're calling around some big-money
people to buy it.  And donate it to the museum.  I don't know why it's not
going maybe the starting bid was too high.  It's absolutely beautiful unlike
any other painting, the chief curator and Babe Ruth expert of the museum has
ever seen himself.

 

The article.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/entertainment/bal-te.to.painter04dec04,0,7488618
.story 

 

Robert

www.RobertFlorio.com  

 

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From arthit73 at cablespeed.com  Wed Dec  5 13:21:20 2007
From: arthit73 at cablespeed.com (Robert Florio)
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 13:21:20 -0500
Subject: [games_access] Second draft. Gentle Petition.  Suggestions?
In-Reply-To: AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIykYSwA
References: <082a01c836c3$91e648d0$0202a8c0@oneswitch><p0623093ec37b8cadded2@[130.126.29.70]><F3551A40-BF1F-42E1-B580-3887037C8FA0@pininteractive.com>AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIwkYSwA
	AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIykYSwA
Message-ID: <007f01c8376b$a51d5350$6501a8c0@Inspiron>

Here is the second draft Of the petition.  Basically left everything I did
say before if it needs to come out or change let me know when you get a
chance.  Everything underlined is what I added with the more positive and
encouraged gentler side.  I don't know if that can be in with the other
stuff also let me know.  I thought it could.  It is what it is.  The
situation.  I think the other parts about discrimination lets people know
that the issue has become that serious but we are still looking at it from
me positive standpoint.

 

Game Accessibility Petition

Author.  Robert Florio

Organization. IGDA Accessibility SIG

December 5, 2007

 

Second draft.

 

Description/History:

 

In 2007 the game design industry has continued to fail making games
accessible for people with limitations. Since the conception and marketing
of videogames in the early 1980s, videogames have grown in complexity in
design and development as well as extremely profitable receiving billions of
dollars each year.  In the United States and across the world abroad, the
game design industry has never been remotely understanding in its efforts to
make games accessible for people with limitations.  The understanding is the
misunderstanding comes from the consumer market for games being accessible
has not been proven profitable.  However, the support of accessible game
design enriches the industry with a very positive message that is
encouraging innovation and experimentation unlike ever before with new and
refreshing marketable concepts.  Limitations such as, paralysis or injury
making it impossible for someone to play with a product with their hands and
fingers, a loss of hearing or site of vision, and even a cognitive ability
to understand and play.

 

With the ever-growing number of people missing out on enjoyability of this
industry and feeling neglected and discriminated against, people with
disabilities and equal opportunity consumers are disadvantaged time and time
again, and now are looking for a solution to make games reach out to adapt
to their needs as well.  This petition will reach out to the voices who can
make a difference supporting the idea that games designed and are accessible
to those with limitations, is not only marketable but gives a very positive
win-win situation for the industry and its market.

 

Petition:

 

We, the undersigned, hereby petition the marketing of commercial country and
worldwide videogames, design accessible videogames to a set standard.  The
requirement should include gamers with physical, visual, audio and cognitive
impairments be given an equal chance in the design of individual videogames.

 

Please sign this petition if you believe that all gamers should be treated
as equals and videogame should be designed to a set standard of
accessibility for videogames according to their individual game designers
target market.

 

 

  _____  

From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
On Behalf Of Robert Florio
Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 12:45 PM
To: 'IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [games_access] Gentle Petition. Suggestions?

 

Okay cool.  If you got a chance to look at the petition I wrote I guess the
suggestion is to make it seem more positive?  Which part?  I think the
beginning part of the history that I wrote says " it is 2007 in the industry
as failed to make games accessible" is there a better way to say that
because that's when it is?  Is that what you mean if that is I will look
through it and adjust other things.

 

I do like the idea of not keeping it short and simple like the petition web
site suggests.  So it's hard to fit a lot in.

 

I think Berrie also suggested a softer petition.  Let me know what you mean
that would be great.

 

Ellke gave up his pass?

 

Wow are you sure?  In my mind I thought I wasn't going but I think now I
have to reconsider my options and then get back to you as soon as possible
if it is absolutely still possible for me to take the offer.  I would say if
I can afford the trip, and I will talk it over with the people helping me to
get there, let him not completely decide to not go.

 

I appreciate the talk here and I don't mean to piss anybody off I just think
it's better to talk about the issues in the open so we are all more open
with each other.  I understand about the timing.  I'll be graduating
December 13 so between now and then I'll be busy myself.

 

Robert

 

  _____  

From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
On Behalf Of d. michelle hinn
Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 11:53 AM
To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
Subject: Re: [games_access] Gentle Petition

 

Yes, going down a serious government track often ends up that way here too
-- I think just getting the message out that games can help from a positive
psychology standpoint helps raise awareness amongst legislators. I received
an email yesterday -- the daily ECA bulletin -- apparently a report came out
yesterday that put the game industry in hot water again. Apparently "games"
are even worse for us than ever was the gist of this report and the ESRP got
slammed. So the industry is STILL having to defend it's existance daily. So
anything we can do to help put games in a positive light, I think the
industry would get behind. So a "pledge of support" for game accessibility
may be what we want our next move to be.

 

For more on the ECA (I'm a founding member!), go to http://www.theeca.com/
-- The IGDA has agreed (and are totally backing the ECA, which is consumer
aimed rather than developer aimed) to let us partner with them in fighting
to keep the game industry healthy. Reid and I talked with them at E for All
and I've been emailing them -- they are helping us get some major names
(I'll announce things officially when we have the written support) in gaming
to join in with us.

 

I think to avoid the lawsuit mess that is tying up our courts and actually
really messing over different entertainment industries because what they
thought was a good idea actually ended up thrown back in their faces, we
should definitely work on this "positive awareness" versus legislation idea.
Robert has started things going -- if we could all take a little time in the
next week or so (I know so many of us are slammed giving exams and/or taking
exams right about now because we are either instructors or students (or
both!) so this week and next is probably pretty rough on time) and help the
petition become something we as a SIG can stand behind and feel that it is
not anti-industry but that it is positive industry, that would be great.

 

You know...we've also never gotten the industry to get behind us in a formal
way so why not take this energy and do this now? Sure, it's not about
changing laws but it's perhaps even more important. Because the industry
needs us and others that know that gaming is important because it's a route
to leisure, which is what makes life, well, fun! :) So if we change our
wording in the petition to something positive and inspiring, well that could
really, really work. And remember -- GDC is SOON! And Robert is one of the
few of us that has a pass (Thanks again to Eelke who generously gave his
pass up so Robert could attend) so, hey, let's turn this opportunity into
something we can go into to GDC with -- it's a great talking point!

 

Michelle

 

a couple of years ago I tried to talk to the Swedish government with a
similar approach and get their attention by writing a letter to the minister
of culture, but only got a polite reply that they didn't have time for a
meeting to discuss with me

 

perhaps things have changed now (new administration) so I can give it a try
again

 

/Thomas

 

5 dec 2007 kl. 00.49 skrev d. michelle hinn:

 

I agree -- We haven't gone down the road of the politics at all yet and I
think if we approach it the right way that it would be well received and
maybe even result in awareness amongst gamers, developers, and people who
would be gamers but don't know that they could be. So a more gentle petition
to say "hey, we agree that games are important and here's why adding
accessibility is a good idea..."

 

There's no reason we can't send an informative brief to let legislators know
about game accessibility even in the US -- when done, this is a GOOD thing
about games. We send the good things about game accessibility and games to
start things out versus something that is anti-industry, which we don't want
to do at this point.

 

And, hey, maybe in 50 years there won't be a need for legislation because
there will be some incredible breakthrough that none of us can even imagine
yet! :)

 

Michelle

 

Robert (and others) - regarding the petition why don't you consider a
compromise? I know in the UK you can quite easily go down the political path
to get things to the government:

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/SupportAT/

What about starting a very simple petition - "We the undersigned want to see
more accessibility features in games...." - with a bit of an explanation
(But not too much) - and some translations into other languages.

It would be nice to have something to take to developers, indies,
home-coders to say lots do want this - it's not just us few people
contacting you! And a few years down the line if we're still getting no
where - but have everything in place that we can do - then maybe the
political path is the way to go.

Let's face it - in 50 years - accessibility in software will very likely be
legislated for (and let's hope it will be so much easier to bring into
being) - so Robert's not so far off the mark. It's just so.... slow....

What do you think re. the gentle petition?

Barrie

 


_______________________________________________
games_access mailing list
games_access at igda.org
http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access

 

_______________________________________________

games_access mailing list

games_access at igda.org

http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access

 


_______________________________________________
games_access mailing list
games_access at igda.org
http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access

 

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From hinn at uiuc.edu  Wed Dec  5 13:59:55 2007
From: hinn at uiuc.edu (d. michelle hinn)
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 12:59:55 -0600
Subject: [games_access] Gentle Petition.  Suggestions?
In-Reply-To: <005701c83766$942eb520$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
References: <082a01c836c3$91e648d0$0202a8c0@oneswitch><p0623093ec37b8cadded2@[130.126.
	29.70]><F3551A40-BF1F-42E1-B580-3887037C8FA0@pininteractive.com>
	AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIwkYSwA
	<005701c83766$942eb520$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
Message-ID: <p06230901c37ca367c247@[130.126.29.74]>

Eelke gave up his pass because he has unused funding that has to be 
used up or he'll lose it -- this was because of the mess he had 
trying to go to FuturePlay. He's still going to GDC but he is paying 
for his own pass with that unused funding. So that allows us to have 
one pass for someone to run the SIG "Meet and Greet" session -- that 
is what you would be in charge of at GDC if you can go.

Can you let me know off-list in reply to my email I sent you last 
night about your bio when you'll know if you can go? I thought that 
you had said that you had funding to go but only if you had a pass. 
Anyway, no worries -- I just need to know very soon if you cannot go 
because then I will re-assign it to someone else who will have to 
make some plane and hotel reservations in a hurry. Just let me know 
by replying to the email I sent you last night.

I'll draft up an edited version of the petition that's more in line 
with what we've been talking about as soon as I get through grading 
my students.

Michelle

>Okay cool.  If you got a chance to look at the petition I wrote I 
>guess the suggestion is to make it seem more positive?  Which part? 
>I think the beginning part of the history that I wrote says " it is 
>2007 in the industry as failed to make games accessible" is there a 
>better way to say that because that's when it is?  Is that what you 
>mean if that is I will look through it and adjust other things.
>
>I do like the idea of not keeping it short and simple like the 
>petition web site suggests.  So it's hard to fit a lot in.
>
>I think Berrie also suggested a softer petition.  Let me know what 
>you mean that would be great.
>
>Ellke gave up his pass?
>
>Wow are you sure?  In my mind I thought I wasn't going but I think 
>now I have to reconsider my options and then get back to you as soon 
>as possible if it is absolutely still possible for me to take the 
>offer.  I would say if I can afford the trip, and I will talk it 
>over with the people helping me to get there, let him not completely 
>decide to not go.
>
>I appreciate the talk here and I don't mean to piss anybody off I 
>just think it's better to talk about the issues in the open so we 
>are all more open with each other.  I understand about the timing. 
>I'll be graduating December 13 so between now and then I'll be busy 
>myself.
>
>Robert
>
>
>From: games_access-bounces at igda.org 
>[mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of d. michelle hinn
>Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 11:53 AM
>To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
>Subject: Re: [games_access] Gentle Petition
>
>Yes, going down a serious government track often ends up that way 
>here too -- I think just getting the message out that games can help 
>from a positive psychology standpoint helps raise awareness amongst 
>legislators. I received an email yesterday -- the daily ECA bulletin 
>-- apparently a report came out yesterday that put the game industry 
>in hot water again. Apparently "games" are even worse for us than 
>ever was the gist of this report and the ESRP got slammed. So the 
>industry is STILL having to defend it's existance daily. So anything 
>we can do to help put games in a positive light, I think the 
>industry would get behind. So a "pledge of support" for game 
>accessibility may be what we want our next move to be.
>
>For more on the ECA (I'm a founding member!), go to 
>http://www.theeca.com/ -- The IGDA has agreed (and are totally 
>backing the ECA, which is consumer aimed rather than developer 
>aimed) to let us partner with them in fighting to keep the game 
>industry healthy. Reid and I talked with them at E for All and I've 
>been emailing them -- they are helping us get some major names (I'll 
>announce things officially when we have the written support) in 
>gaming to join in with us.
>
>I think to avoid the lawsuit mess that is tying up our courts and 
>actually really messing over different entertainment industries 
>because what they thought was a good idea actually ended up thrown 
>back in their faces, we should definitely work on this "positive 
>awareness" versus legislation idea. Robert has started things going 
>-- if we could all take a little time in the next week or so (I know 
>so many of us are slammed giving exams and/or taking exams right 
>about now because we are either instructors or students (or both!) 
>so this week and next is probably pretty rough on time) and help the 
>petition become something we as a SIG can stand behind and feel that 
>it is not anti-industry but that it is positive industry, that would 
>be great.
>
>You know...we've also never gotten the industry to get behind us in 
>a formal way so why not take this energy and do this now? Sure, it's 
>not about changing laws but it's perhaps even more important. 
>Because the industry needs us and others that know that gaming is 
>important because it's a route to leisure, which is what makes life, 
>well, fun! :) So if we change our wording in the petition to 
>something positive and inspiring, well that could really, really 
>work. And remember -- GDC is SOON! And Robert is one of the few of 
>us that has a pass (Thanks again to Eelke who generously gave his 
>pass up so Robert could attend) so, hey, let's turn this opportunity 
>into something we can go into to GDC with -- it's a great talking 
>point!
>
>Michelle
>
>
>>a couple of years ago I tried to talk to the Swedish government 
>>with a similar approach and get their attention by writing a letter 
>>to the minister of culture, but only got a polite reply that they 
>>didn't have time for a meeting to discuss with me
>>
>>
>>
>>perhaps things have changed now (new administration) so I can give 
>>it a try again
>>
>>
>>
>>/Thomas
>>
>>
>>
>>5 dec 2007 kl. 00.49 skrev d. michelle hinn:
>>
>>
>>
>>I agree -- We haven't gone down the road of the politics at all yet 
>>and I think if we approach it the right way that it would be well 
>>received and maybe even result in awareness amongst gamers, 
>>developers, and people who would be gamers but don't know that they 
>>could be. So a more gentle petition to say "hey, we agree that 
>>games are important and here's why adding accessibility is a good 
>>idea..."
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>There's no reason we can't send an informative brief to let 
>>>legislators know about game accessibility even in the US -- when 
>>>done, this is a GOOD thing about games. We send the good things 
>>>about game accessibility and games to start things out versus 
>>>something that is anti-industry, which we don't want to do at this 
>>>point.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>And, hey, maybe in 50 years there won't be a need for legislation 
>>>because there will be some incredible breakthrough that none of us 
>>>can even imagine yet! :)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Michelle
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Robert (and others) - regarding the petition why don't you consider a
>>>compromise? I know in the UK you can quite easily go down the political path
>>>to get things to the government:
>>>
>>>http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/SupportAT/
>>>
>>>What about starting a very simple petition - "We the undersigned want to see
>>>more accessibility features in games...." - with a bit of an explanation
>>>(But not too much) - and some translations into other languages.
>>>
>>>It would be nice to have something to take to developers, indies,
>>>home-coders to say lots do want this - it's not just us few people
>>>contacting you! And a few years down the line if we're still getting no
>>>where - but have everything in place that we can do - then maybe the
>>>political path is the way to go.
>>>
>>>Let's face it - in 50 years - accessibility in software will very likely be
>>>legislated for (and let's hope it will be so much easier to bring into
>>>being) - so Robert's not so far off the mark. It's just so.... slow....
>>>
>>>What do you think re. the gentle petition?
>>>
>>>Barrie
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>games_access mailing list
>>>><mailto:games_access at igda.org>games_access at igda.org
>>>><http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>
>>>games_access mailing list
>>>
>>><mailto:games_access at igda.org>games_access at igda.org
>>>
>>><http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>games_access mailing list
>>games_access at igda.org
>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
-------------- next part --------------
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From arthit73 at cablespeed.com  Wed Dec  5 14:18:23 2007
From: arthit73 at cablespeed.com (Robert Florio)
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 14:18:23 -0500
Subject: [games_access] Gentle Petition.  Suggestions?
In-Reply-To: AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIyEYywA
References: <082a01c836c3$91e648d0$0202a8c0@oneswitch><p0623093ec37b8cadded2@[130.126.29.70]><F3551A40-BF1F-42E1-B580-3887037C8FA0@pininteractive.com>AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIwkYSwA<005701c83766$942eb520$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
	AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIyEYywA
Message-ID: <009f01c83773$9a93e6d0$6501a8c0@Inspiron>

OK.  I didn't get that e-mail from you off list Michelle.  Yes I thought I
would have funding a need to check with this painting it looks like there's
no bids coming in.  Sadly.  That's frustrating.  It's a beautiful painting
unlike anyone has seen yet no one is bidding.  That's strange.  Takes more
time I think.

 

Yes I will definitely let you know soon as I can.

 

Robert

 

  _____  

From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
On Behalf Of d. michelle hinn
Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 2:00 PM
To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
Subject: Re: [games_access] Gentle Petition. Suggestions?

 

Eelke gave up his pass because he has unused funding that has to be used up
or he'll lose it -- this was because of the mess he had trying to go to
FuturePlay. He's still going to GDC but he is paying for his own pass with
that unused funding. So that allows us to have one pass for someone to run
the SIG "Meet and Greet" session -- that is what you would be in charge of
at GDC if you can go.

 

Can you let me know off-list in reply to my email I sent you last night
about your bio when you'll know if you can go? I thought that you had said
that you had funding to go but only if you had a pass. Anyway, no worries --
I just need to know very soon if you cannot go because then I will re-assign
it to someone else who will have to make some plane and hotel reservations
in a hurry. Just let me know by replying to the email I sent you last night.

 

I'll draft up an edited version of the petition that's more in line with
what we've been talking about as soon as I get through grading my students.

 

Michelle

 

Okay cool.  If you got a chance to look at the petition I wrote I guess the
suggestion is to make it seem more positive?  Which part?  I think the
beginning part of the history that I wrote says " it is 2007 in the industry
as failed to make games accessible" is there a better way to say that
because that's when it is?  Is that what you mean if that is I will look
through it and adjust other things.

 

I do like the idea of not keeping it short and simple like the petition web
site suggests.  So it's hard to fit a lot in.

 

I think Berrie also suggested a softer petition.  Let me know what you mean
that would be great.

 

Ellke gave up his pass?

 

Wow are you sure?  In my mind I thought I wasn't going but I think now I
have to reconsider my options and then get back to you as soon as possible
if it is absolutely still possible for me to take the offer.  I would say if
I can afford the trip, and I will talk it over with the people helping me to
get there, let him not completely decide to not go.

 

I appreciate the talk here and I don't mean to piss anybody off I just think
it's better to talk about the issues in the open so we are all more open
with each other.  I understand about the timing.  I'll be graduating
December 13 so between now and then I'll be busy myself.

 

Robert

 


  _____  


From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
On Behalf Of d. michelle hinn
Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 11:53 AM
To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
Subject: Re: [games_access] Gentle Petition

 

Yes, going down a serious government track often ends up that way here too
-- I think just getting the message out that games can help from a positive
psychology standpoint helps raise awareness amongst legislators. I received
an email yesterday -- the daily ECA bulletin -- apparently a report came out
yesterday that put the game industry in hot water again. Apparently "games"
are even worse for us than ever was the gist of this report and the ESRP got
slammed. So the industry is STILL having to defend it's existance daily. So
anything we can do to help put games in a positive light, I think the
industry would get behind. So a "pledge of support" for game accessibility
may be what we want our next move to be.

 

For more on the ECA (I'm a founding member!), go to http://www.theeca.com/
-- The IGDA has agreed (and are totally backing the ECA, which is consumer
aimed rather than developer aimed) to let us partner with them in fighting
to keep the game industry healthy. Reid and I talked with them at E for All
and I've been emailing them -- they are helping us get some major names
(I'll announce things officially when we have the written support) in gaming
to join in with us.

 

I think to avoid the lawsuit mess that is tying up our courts and actually
really messing over different entertainment industries because what they
thought was a good idea actually ended up thrown back in their faces, we
should definitely work on this "positive awareness" versus legislation idea.
Robert has started things going -- if we could all take a little time in the
next week or so (I know so many of us are slammed giving exams and/or taking
exams right about now because we are either instructors or students (or
both!) so this week and next is probably pretty rough on time) and help the
petition become something we as a SIG can stand behind and feel that it is
not anti-industry but that it is positive industry, that would be great.

 

You know...we've also never gotten the industry to get behind us in a formal
way so why not take this energy and do this now? Sure, it's not about
changing laws but it's perhaps even more important. Because the industry
needs us and others that know that gaming is important because it's a route
to leisure, which is what makes life, well, fun! :) So if we change our
wording in the petition to something positive and inspiring, well that could
really, really work. And remember -- GDC is SOON! And Robert is one of the
few of us that has a pass (Thanks again to Eelke who generously gave his
pass up so Robert could attend) so, hey, let's turn this opportunity into
something we can go into to GDC with -- it's a great talking point!

 

Michelle

 



a couple of years ago I tried to talk to the Swedish government with a
similar approach and get their attention by writing a letter to the minister
of culture, but only got a polite reply that they didn't have time for a
meeting to discuss with me

 

perhaps things have changed now (new administration) so I can give it a try
again

 

/Thomas

 

5 dec 2007 kl. 00.49 skrev d. michelle hinn:

 

I agree -- We haven't gone down the road of the politics at all yet and I
think if we approach it the right way that it would be well received and
maybe even result in awareness amongst gamers, developers, and people who
would be gamers but don't know that they could be. So a more gentle petition
to say "hey, we agree that games are important and here's why adding
accessibility is a good idea..."



 

There's no reason we can't send an informative brief to let legislators know
about game accessibility even in the US -- when done, this is a GOOD thing
about games. We send the good things about game accessibility and games to
start things out versus something that is anti-industry, which we don't want
to do at this point.

 

And, hey, maybe in 50 years there won't be a need for legislation because
there will be some incredible breakthrough that none of us can even imagine
yet! :)

 

Michelle

 

Robert (and others) - regarding the petition why don't you consider a
compromise? I know in the UK you can quite easily go down the political path
to get things to the government:

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/SupportAT/

What about starting a very simple petition - "We the undersigned want to see
more accessibility features in games...." - with a bit of an explanation
(But not too much) - and some translations into other languages.

It would be nice to have something to take to developers, indies,
home-coders to say lots do want this - it's not just us few people
contacting you! And a few years down the line if we're still getting no
where - but have everything in place that we can do - then maybe the
political path is the way to go.

Let's face it - in 50 years - accessibility in software will very likely be
legislated for (and let's hope it will be so much easier to bring into
being) - so Robert's not so far off the mark. It's just so.... slow....

What do you think re. the gentle petition?

Barrie



 


_______________________________________________
games_access mailing list
games_access at igda.org
http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access

 

_______________________________________________

games_access mailing list

games_access at igda.org

http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access

 


_______________________________________________
games_access mailing list
games_access at igda.org
http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access

 


_______________________________________________
games_access mailing list
games_access at igda.org
http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access

 

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From hinn at uiuc.edu  Wed Dec  5 14:20:27 2007
From: hinn at uiuc.edu (d. michelle hinn)
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 13:20:27 -0600
Subject: [games_access] GDC -- who is able to go?
In-Reply-To: <007f01c8376b$a51d5350$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
References: <082a01c836c3$91e648d0$0202a8c0@oneswitch><p0623093ec37b8cadded2@[130.126.
	29.70]><F3551A40-BF1F-42E1-B580-3887037C8FA0@pininteractive.com>AAAAADBf8G
	SYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIwkYSwA	AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIykYSwA
	<007f01c8376b$a51d5350$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
Message-ID: <p06230903c37ca70c9cec@[130.126.29.74]>

Hey All,

So I need to know AS SOON AS POSSIBLE who has the funding to go to 
GDC (again, the website is www.gdconf.com), which is in San Francisco 
from February 18-22, 2008. I can't promise that I can get you a pass 
but I need to know who is 100% certain that they can cover the 
airline and hotel fares an get there so that I have a more realistic 
idea of who for sure can go if and when a pass becomes available. If 
you get a comp pass, you will be expected to participate in SIG 
activities at the GDC. I can elaborate as needed but I have to get 
back to my grading right now.

Please email me as soon as you can offlist at hinn at uiuc.edu

Thanks!
Michelle
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From eelke.folmer at gmail.com  Wed Dec  5 18:57:26 2007
From: eelke.folmer at gmail.com (Eelke Folmer)
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 15:57:26 -0800
Subject: [games_access] GDC -- who is able to go?
In-Reply-To: <p06230903c37ca70c9cec@130.126.29.74>
References: <082a01c836c3$91e648d0$0202a8c0@oneswitch>
	<F3551A40-BF1F-42E1-B580-3887037C8FA0@pininteractive.com>
	<007f01c8376b$a51d5350$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
	<p06230903c37ca70c9cec@130.126.29.74>
Message-ID: <836db6300712051557k78ef7fcds55d376c4ca0046de@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

Those who go on their own expense; the early rate for alumni ends
today (dec 5th).

Cheers Eelke


On 05/12/2007, d. michelle hinn <hinn at uiuc.edu> wrote:
>
>
> Hey All,
>
>
> So I need to know AS SOON AS POSSIBLE who has the funding to go to GDC
> (again, the website is www.gdconf.com), which is in San Francisco from
> February 18-22, 2008. I can't promise that I can get you a pass but I need
> to know who is 100% certain that they can cover the airline and hotel fares
> an get there so that I have a more realistic idea of who for sure can go if
> and when a pass becomes available. If you get a comp pass, you will be
> expected to participate in SIG activities at the GDC. I can elaborate as
> needed but I have to get back to my grading right now.
>
>
> Please email me as soon as you can offlist at hinn at uiuc.edu
>
>
> Thanks!
> Michelle
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>


-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eelke Folmer                           Assistant Professor
Department of CS&E/171
University of Nevada              Reno, Nevada 89557
Game interaction design        www.helpyouplay.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------------


From hinn at uiuc.edu  Wed Dec  5 19:30:52 2007
From: hinn at uiuc.edu (d. michelle hinn)
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 18:30:52 -0600
Subject: [games_access] GDC -- who is able to go?
In-Reply-To: <836db6300712051557k78ef7fcds55d376c4ca0046de@mail.gmail.com>
References: <082a01c836c3$91e648d0$0202a8c0@oneswitch>
	<F3551A40-BF1F-42E1-B580-3887037C8FA0@pininteractive.com>
	<007f01c8376b$a51d5350$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
	<p06230903c37ca70c9cec@130.126.29.74>
	<836db6300712051557k78ef7fcds55d376c4ca0046de@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <p0623090bc37cf2ea650a@[130.126.29.74]>

Thanks for the reminder of that Eelke! Prices significally go up 
after today. And Hotels are running out of rooms FAST. So book now!

Michelle

>Hi,
>
>Those who go on their own expense; the early rate for alumni ends
>today (dec 5th).
>
>Cheers Eelke
>
>
>On 05/12/2007, d. michelle hinn <hinn at uiuc.edu> wrote:
>>
>>
>>  Hey All,
>>
>>
>>  So I need to know AS SOON AS POSSIBLE who has the funding to go to GDC
>>  (again, the website is www.gdconf.com), which is in San Francisco from
>>  February 18-22, 2008. I can't promise that I can get you a pass but I need
>>  to know who is 100% certain that they can cover the airline and hotel fares
>>  an get there so that I have a more realistic idea of who for sure can go if
>>  and when a pass becomes available. If you get a comp pass, you will be
>>  expected to participate in SIG activities at the GDC. I can elaborate as
>>  needed but I have to get back to my grading right now.
>>
>>
>>  Please email me as soon as you can offlist at hinn at uiuc.edu
>>
>>
>>  Thanks!
>>  Michelle
>>  _______________________________________________
>>  games_access mailing list
>>  games_access at igda.org
>>  http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>
>>
>
>
>--
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Eelke Folmer                           Assistant Professor
>Department of CS&E/171
>University of Nevada              Reno, Nevada 89557
>Game interaction design        www.helpyouplay.com
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access



From thomas at pininteractive.com  Thu Dec  6 04:06:23 2007
From: thomas at pininteractive.com (Thomas Westin)
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 10:06:23 +0100
Subject: [games_access] GDC -- who is able to go?
In-Reply-To: <p0623090bc37cf2ea650a@[130.126.29.74]>
References: <082a01c836c3$91e648d0$0202a8c0@oneswitch><F3551A40-BF1F-42E1-B580-3887037C8FA0@pininteractive.com><007f01c8376b$a51d5350$6501a8c0@Inspiron><p06230903c37ca70c9cec@130.126.29.74><836db6300712051557k78ef7fcds55d376c4ca0046de@mail.gmail.com>
	<p0623090bc37cf2ea650a@[130.126.29.74]>
Message-ID: <A95DAA20-8B12-4F27-A68B-2E2542A3205E@pininteractive.com>

Hello

Just letting you know I will not attend so you don't need to think  
about me this year, maybe next year.

  I really like to go to GDC but I'm managing a university course in  
February which makes it hard to go (of course I would have made  
arrangements if the speak went through)

and  I need to focus on my master and the GAIM right now

/Thomas

6 dec 2007 kl. 01.30 skrev d. michelle hinn:

> Thanks for the reminder of that Eelke! Prices significally go up  
> after today. And Hotels are running out of rooms FAST. So book now!
>
> Michelle
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Those who go on their own expense; the early rate for alumni ends
>> today (dec 5th).
>>
>> Cheers Eelke
>>
>>
>> On 05/12/2007, d. michelle hinn <hinn at uiuc.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>  Hey All,
>>>
>>>
>>>  So I need to know AS SOON AS POSSIBLE who has the funding to go  
>>> to GDC
>>>  (again, the website is www.gdconf.com), which is in San  
>>> Francisco from
>>>  February 18-22, 2008. I can't promise that I can get you a pass  
>>> but I need
>>>  to know who is 100% certain that they can cover the airline and  
>>> hotel fares
>>>  an get there so that I have a more realistic idea of who for  
>>> sure can go if
>>>  and when a pass becomes available. If you get a comp pass, you  
>>> will be
>>>  expected to participate in SIG activities at the GDC. I can  
>>> elaborate as
>>>  needed but I have to get back to my grading right now.
>>>
>>>
>>>  Please email me as soon as you can offlist at hinn at uiuc.edu
>>>
>>>
>>>  Thanks!
>>>  Michelle
>>>  _______________________________________________
>>>  games_access mailing list
>>>  games_access at igda.org
>>>  http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>> -------
>> Eelke Folmer                           Assistant Professor
>> Department of CS&E/171
>> University of Nevada              Reno, Nevada 89557
>> Game interaction design        www.helpyouplay.com
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>> -------
>> _______________________________________________
>> games_access mailing list
>> games_access at igda.org
>> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access



From arthit73 at cablespeed.com  Thu Dec  6 12:01:03 2007
From: arthit73 at cablespeed.com (Robert Florio)
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 12:01:03 -0500
Subject: [games_access] GDC -- who is able to go?
In-Reply-To: AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIxkZiwA
References: <082a01c836c3$91e648d0$0202a8c0@oneswitch><F3551A40-BF1F-42E1-B580-3887037C8FA0@pininteractive.com><007f01c8376b$a51d5350$6501a8c0@Inspiron><p06230903c37ca70c9cec@130.126.29.74><836db6300712051557k78ef7fcds55d376c4ca0046de@mail.gmail.com>
	AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIxkZiwA
Message-ID: <00f701c83829$959d7cc0$6501a8c0@Inspiron>

For me it depends if I can come up with the amount of money for the trip.
As of right now I can afford it and cannot but I still need to talk it over
with my mother and see if I can see something come through with this
painting I did.  So at two possibly three weeks at the most I will let you
know for sure.  If you need to know before that let me know.

Robert

-----Original Message-----
From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
On Behalf Of d. michelle hinn
Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 7:31 PM
To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
Subject: Re: [games_access] GDC -- who is able to go?

Thanks for the reminder of that Eelke! Prices significally go up 
after today. And Hotels are running out of rooms FAST. So book now!

Michelle

>Hi,
>
>Those who go on their own expense; the early rate for alumni ends
>today (dec 5th).
>
>Cheers Eelke
>
>
>On 05/12/2007, d. michelle hinn <hinn at uiuc.edu> wrote:
>>
>>
>>  Hey All,
>>
>>
>>  So I need to know AS SOON AS POSSIBLE who has the funding to go to GDC
>>  (again, the website is www.gdconf.com), which is in San Francisco from
>>  February 18-22, 2008. I can't promise that I can get you a pass but I
need
>>  to know who is 100% certain that they can cover the airline and hotel
fares
>>  an get there so that I have a more realistic idea of who for sure can go
if
>>  and when a pass becomes available. If you get a comp pass, you will be
>>  expected to participate in SIG activities at the GDC. I can elaborate as
>>  needed but I have to get back to my grading right now.
>>
>>
>>  Please email me as soon as you can offlist at hinn at uiuc.edu
>>
>>
>>  Thanks!
>>  Michelle
>>  _______________________________________________
>>  games_access mailing list
>>  games_access at igda.org
>>  http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>
>>
>
>
>--
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
>Eelke Folmer                           Assistant Professor
>Department of CS&E/171
>University of Nevada              Reno, Nevada 89557
>Game interaction design        www.helpyouplay.com
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access

_______________________________________________
games_access mailing list
games_access at igda.org
http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access



From arthit73 at cablespeed.com  Sun Dec  9 18:12:44 2007
From: arthit73 at cablespeed.com (Robert Florio)
Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 18:12:44 -0500
Subject: [games_access] Robert Florio's painting,
	on eBay now.  Raising funds.
In-Reply-To: AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIyEaSwA
References: <082a01c836c3$91e648d0$0202a8c0@oneswitch><F3551A40-BF1F-42E1-B580-3887037C8FA0@pininteractive.com><007f01c8376b$a51d5350$6501a8c0@Inspiron><p06230903c37ca70c9cec@130.126.29.74><836db6300712051557k78ef7fcds55d376c4ca0046de@mail.gmail.com><p0623090bc37cf2ea650a@[130.126.29.74]>
	AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIyEaSwA
Message-ID: <000001c83ab9$016f6ee0$6501a8c0@Inspiron>

Hi I'm just sending you a quick message to get the word out.  I finished a
huge portrait for the Babe Ruth Museum title, The Golden Babe, i'm hoping
that This EBay Auction Only Few of the Reproductions on Who Gets Your
Attention or You Can Spread the Word to Other People.  If I can raise enough
funds I can afford going to GDC.

 

To Bid Go Here.

http://www.robertflorio.com/Auctioned_Paintings.html  

 

Front page the Baltimore Sun story.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/entertainment/bal-te.to.painter04dec04,0,7488618
.story  

 

It is an 18 x 24 painting I did with my mouth of Babe Ruth.  I was also
recently in the front page of the Baltimore Sun newspaper.  Check out that
article.  I hope I get more reaction on the reproductions.

 

God bless you all and have a great and wonderful holiday.

 

 

A few of these reproductions are signed by big-name baseball athletes
including Alex Rodr?guez, Kevin Mallar, Brian Roberts, Nick Markakis.

 

I hope to get your help if you will to spread the word and see some
reproductions of a beautiful piece of artwork.  If you're interested in
purchasing the original please let me know and we can arrange that.

 

In Baltimore city on 216 Emory St. you can see the original painting where
it is now on location for a limited time at the actual Babe Ruth Museum and
birthplace.

 

This online auction currently starts now on eBay and it is ending in 10 days
December 18.  It has a reserve price on it but the bid starts at $50.  I'm
hoping to get at least $200 and $300 on them.  Might seem like a lot of
money but considering these are limited reproduction I only reproduced 14,
and only these are signed by one of the athletes one of them each by the
four athletes ever signed by them no more.  Please spread the word and take
a bid it will be a great piece of collection.

 

It certainly would be heart-wrenching if they do not get bided on.

 

I've had the pleasure to share my talent in my story with you over the
years.  Once I finally get a great opportunity to paint an amazing painting
and share it with you is your opportunity to have it in your house.  I don't
think too many of these things for people to have available but this is an
incredible opportunity.  The Babe Ruth Museum never auctioned off war had a
commissioned painting by an artist before then that combine with my ability
makes for great story in great history behind the value of this painting.

 

I hope you will find it in your heart to want this painting in your
possession.  I am actually graduating from the Art Institute online, a
bachelor's degree in game art and design December 13.  I'm receiving a
Dean's merit award onstage in Pittsburgh for graduation, the student with
the most perseverance, accomplish the most, and represents the heart of a
student.  I hope I'll see a lot of you have my graduation party coming up.
Stay tuned.

 

 

Have a great holiday and I wish you the best.

 

Your friend.

 

Robert Florio

www.RobertFlorio.com  

                                         



From ioo at ablegamers.com  Sun Dec  9 18:17:19 2007
From: ioo at ablegamers.com (Ioo)
Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2007 18:17:19 -0500
Subject: [games_access] Robert Florio's painting,
 on eBay now.  Raising funds.
In-Reply-To: <000001c83ab9$016f6ee0$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
References: <082a01c836c3$91e648d0$0202a8c0@oneswitch><F3551A40-BF1F-42E1-B580-3887037C8FA0@pininteractive.com><007f01c8376b$a51d5350$6501a8c0@Inspiron><p06230903c37ca70c9cec@130.126.29.74><836db6300712051557k78ef7fcds55d376c4ca0046de@mail.gmail.com><p0623090bc37cf2ea650a@[130.126.29.74]>	AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIyEaSwA
	<000001c83ab9$016f6ee0$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
Message-ID: <475C777F.2050000@ablegamers.com>

Robert the link on that page goes to...


		*This listing (330195935943) has been removed or is no longer 
available. Please make sure you entered the right item number. *
If the listing was removed by eBay, consider it canceled. Note: Listings 
that have ended more than 90 days ago will no longer appear on eBay.



Robert Florio wrote:
> Hi I'm just sending you a quick message to get the word out.  I finished a
> huge portrait for the Babe Ruth Museum title, The Golden Babe, i'm hoping
> that This EBay Auction Only Few of the Reproductions on Who Gets Your
> Attention or You Can Spread the Word to Other People.  If I can raise enough
> funds I can afford going to GDC.
>
>  
>
> To Bid Go Here.
>
> http://www.robertflorio.com/Auctioned_Paintings.html  
>
>  
>
> Front page the Baltimore Sun story.
>
> http://www.baltimoresun.com/entertainment/bal-te.to.painter04dec04,0,7488618
> .story  
>
>  
>
> It is an 18 x 24 painting I did with my mouth of Babe Ruth.  I was also
> recently in the front page of the Baltimore Sun newspaper.  Check out that
> article.  I hope I get more reaction on the reproductions.
>
>  
>
> God bless you all and have a great and wonderful holiday.
>
>  
>
>  
>
> A few of these reproductions are signed by big-name baseball athletes
> including Alex Rodr?guez, Kevin Mallar, Brian Roberts, Nick Markakis.
>
>  
>
> I hope to get your help if you will to spread the word and see some
> reproductions of a beautiful piece of artwork.  If you're interested in
> purchasing the original please let me know and we can arrange that.
>
>  
>
> In Baltimore city on 216 Emory St. you can see the original painting where
> it is now on location for a limited time at the actual Babe Ruth Museum and
> birthplace.
>
>  
>
> This online auction currently starts now on eBay and it is ending in 10 days
> December 18.  It has a reserve price on it but the bid starts at $50.  I'm
> hoping to get at least $200 and $300 on them.  Might seem like a lot of
> money but considering these are limited reproduction I only reproduced 14,
> and only these are signed by one of the athletes one of them each by the
> four athletes ever signed by them no more.  Please spread the word and take
> a bid it will be a great piece of collection.
>
>  
>
> It certainly would be heart-wrenching if they do not get bided on.
>
>  
>
> I've had the pleasure to share my talent in my story with you over the
> years.  Once I finally get a great opportunity to paint an amazing painting
> and share it with you is your opportunity to have it in your house.  I don't
> think too many of these things for people to have available but this is an
> incredible opportunity.  The Babe Ruth Museum never auctioned off war had a
> commissioned painting by an artist before then that combine with my ability
> makes for great story in great history behind the value of this painting.
>
>  
>
> I hope you will find it in your heart to want this painting in your
> possession.  I am actually graduating from the Art Institute online, a
> bachelor's degree in game art and design December 13.  I'm receiving a
> Dean's merit award onstage in Pittsburgh for graduation, the student with
> the most perseverance, accomplish the most, and represents the heart of a
> student.  I hope I'll see a lot of you have my graduation party coming up.
> Stay tuned.
>
>  
>
>  
>
> Have a great holiday and I wish you the best.
>
>  
>
> Your friend.
>
>  
>
> Robert Florio
>
> www.RobertFlorio.com  
>
>                                          
>
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>   


From arthit73 at cablespeed.com  Sun Dec  9 18:22:27 2007
From: arthit73 at cablespeed.com (Robert Florio)
Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 18:22:27 -0500
Subject: [games_access] Robert Florio's painting,
	on eBay now.  Raising funds.
In-Reply-To: AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIzkiSwA
References: <082a01c836c3$91e648d0$0202a8c0@oneswitch><F3551A40-BF1F-42E1-B580-3887037C8FA0@pininteractive.com><007f01c8376b$a51d5350$6501a8c0@Inspiron><p06230903c37ca70c9cec@130.126.29.74><836db6300712051557k78ef7fcds55d376c4ca0046de@mail.gmail.com><p0623090bc37cf2ea650a@[130.126.29.74]>	AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIyEaSwA<000001c83ab9$016f6ee0$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
	AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIzkiSwA
Message-ID: <000601c83aba$5d24f3d0$6501a8c0@Inspiron>

Okay here is again.  Baltimore Sun first page front-page story.
http://www.baltimoresun.com/entertainment/bal-te.to.painter04dec04,0,7488618
.story 

Robert

-----Original Message-----
From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
On Behalf Of Ioo
Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2007 6:17 PM
To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
Subject: Re: [games_access] Robert Florio's painting, on eBay now. Raising
funds.

Robert the link on that page goes to...


		*This listing (330195935943) has been removed or is no
longer 
available. Please make sure you entered the right item number. *
If the listing was removed by eBay, consider it canceled. Note: Listings 
that have ended more than 90 days ago will no longer appear on eBay.



Robert Florio wrote:
> Hi I'm just sending you a quick message to get the word out.  I finished a
> huge portrait for the Babe Ruth Museum title, The Golden Babe, i'm hoping
> that This EBay Auction Only Few of the Reproductions on Who Gets Your
> Attention or You Can Spread the Word to Other People.  If I can raise
enough
> funds I can afford going to GDC.
>
>  
>
> To Bid Go Here.
>
> http://www.robertflorio.com/Auctioned_Paintings.html  
>
>  
>
> Front page the Baltimore Sun story.
>
>
http://www.baltimoresun.com/entertainment/bal-te.to.painter04dec04,0,7488618
> .story  
>
>  
>
> It is an 18 x 24 painting I did with my mouth of Babe Ruth.  I was also
> recently in the front page of the Baltimore Sun newspaper.  Check out that
> article.  I hope I get more reaction on the reproductions.
>
>  
>
> God bless you all and have a great and wonderful holiday.
>
>  
>
>  
>
> A few of these reproductions are signed by big-name baseball athletes
> including Alex Rodr?guez, Kevin Mallar, Brian Roberts, Nick Markakis.
>
>  
>
> I hope to get your help if you will to spread the word and see some
> reproductions of a beautiful piece of artwork.  If you're interested in
> purchasing the original please let me know and we can arrange that.
>
>  
>
> In Baltimore city on 216 Emory St. you can see the original painting where
> it is now on location for a limited time at the actual Babe Ruth Museum
and
> birthplace.
>
>  
>
> This online auction currently starts now on eBay and it is ending in 10
days
> December 18.  It has a reserve price on it but the bid starts at $50.  I'm
> hoping to get at least $200 and $300 on them.  Might seem like a lot of
> money but considering these are limited reproduction I only reproduced 14,
> and only these are signed by one of the athletes one of them each by the
> four athletes ever signed by them no more.  Please spread the word and
take
> a bid it will be a great piece of collection.
>
>  
>
> It certainly would be heart-wrenching if they do not get bided on.
>
>  
>
> I've had the pleasure to share my talent in my story with you over the
> years.  Once I finally get a great opportunity to paint an amazing
painting
> and share it with you is your opportunity to have it in your house.  I
don't
> think too many of these things for people to have available but this is an
> incredible opportunity.  The Babe Ruth Museum never auctioned off war had
a
> commissioned painting by an artist before then that combine with my
ability
> makes for great story in great history behind the value of this painting.
>
>  
>
> I hope you will find it in your heart to want this painting in your
> possession.  I am actually graduating from the Art Institute online, a
> bachelor's degree in game art and design December 13.  I'm receiving a
> Dean's merit award onstage in Pittsburgh for graduation, the student with
> the most perseverance, accomplish the most, and represents the heart of a
> student.  I hope I'll see a lot of you have my graduation party coming up.
> Stay tuned.
>
>  
>
>  
>
> Have a great holiday and I wish you the best.
>
>  
>
> Your friend.
>
>  
>
> Robert Florio
>
> www.RobertFlorio.com  
>
>                                          
>
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>   
_______________________________________________
games_access mailing list
games_access at igda.org
http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access



From hinn at uiuc.edu  Sun Dec  9 18:41:55 2007
From: hinn at uiuc.edu (d. michelle hinn)
Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 17:41:55 -0600
Subject: [games_access] Robert Florio's painting,
 on eBay now.  Raising funds.
In-Reply-To: <000601c83aba$5d24f3d0$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
References: <082a01c836c3$91e648d0$0202a8c0@oneswitch><F3551A40-BF1F-42E1-B580-3887037
	C8FA0@pininteractive.com><007f01c8376b$a51d5350$6501a8c0@Inspiron><p062309
	03c37ca70c9cec@130.126.29.74><836db6300712051557k78ef7fcds55d376c4ca0046de
	@mail.gmail.com><p0623090bc37cf2ea650a@[130.126.29.74]>
	AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIyEaSwA<000001c83ab9$016f6ee0$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
	AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIzkiSwA
	<000601c83aba$5d24f3d0$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
Message-ID: <p06230939c3822d50eb14@[130.126.29.74]>

I think Mark's talking about the ebay links from 
your homepage that you sent us to:

>  To Bid Go Here.
>
>  http://www.robertflorio.com/Auctioned_Paintings.html

I also cannot get to the ebay auctions for the paintings. Same error message.

Michelle

>Okay here is again.  Baltimore Sun first page front-page story.
>http://www.baltimoresun.com/entertainment/bal-te.to.painter04dec04,0,7488618
>.story
>
>Robert
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
>On Behalf Of Ioo
>Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2007 6:17 PM
>To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
>Subject: Re: [games_access] Robert Florio's painting, on eBay now. Raising
>funds.
>
>Robert the link on that page goes to...
>
>
>		*This listing (330195935943) has been removed or is no
>longer
>available. Please make sure you entered the right item number. *
>If the listing was removed by eBay, consider it canceled. Note: Listings
>that have ended more than 90 days ago will no longer appear on eBay.
>
>
>
>Robert Florio wrote:
>>  Hi I'm just sending you a quick message to get the word out.  I finished a
>>  huge portrait for the Babe Ruth Museum title, The Golden Babe, i'm hoping
>>  that This EBay Auction Only Few of the Reproductions on Who Gets Your
>>  Attention or You Can Spread the Word to Other People.  If I can raise
>enough
>>  funds I can afford going to GDC.
>>
>> 
>>
>  > To Bid Go Here.
>>
>  > http://www.robertflorio.com/Auctioned_Paintings.html 
>>
>> 
>>
>>  Front page the Baltimore Sun story.
>>
>>
>http://www.baltimoresun.com/entertainment/bal-te.to.painter04dec04,0,7488618
>>  .story 
>>
>> 
>>
>>  It is an 18 x 24 painting I did with my mouth of Babe Ruth.  I was also
>>  recently in the front page of the Baltimore Sun newspaper.  Check out that
>>  article.  I hope I get more reaction on the reproductions.
>>
>> 
>>
>>  God bless you all and have a great and wonderful holiday.
>>
>> 
>>
>> 
>>
>>  A few of these reproductions are signed by big-name baseball athletes
>>  including Alex Rodr?guez, Kevin Mallar, Brian Roberts, Nick Markakis.
>>
>> 
>>
>>  I hope to get your help if you will to spread the word and see some
>>  reproductions of a beautiful piece of artwork.  If you're interested in
>>  purchasing the original please let me know and we can arrange that.
>>
>> 
>>
>>  In Baltimore city on 216 Emory St. you can see the original painting where
>>  it is now on location for a limited time at the actual Babe Ruth Museum
>and
>>  birthplace.
>>
>> 
>>
>>  This online auction currently starts now on eBay and it is ending in 10
>days
>>  December 18.  It has a reserve price on it but the bid starts at $50.  I'm
>>  hoping to get at least $200 and $300 on them.  Might seem like a lot of
>>  money but considering these are limited reproduction I only reproduced 14,
>>  and only these are signed by one of the athletes one of them each by the
>>  four athletes ever signed by them no more.  Please spread the word and
>take
>>  a bid it will be a great piece of collection.
>>
>> 
>>
>>  It certainly would be heart-wrenching if they do not get bided on.
>>
>> 
>>
>>  I've had the pleasure to share my talent in my story with you over the
>>  years.  Once I finally get a great opportunity to paint an amazing
>painting
>>  and share it with you is your opportunity to have it in your house.  I
>don't
>>  think too many of these things for people to have available but this is an
>>  incredible opportunity.  The Babe Ruth Museum never auctioned off war had
>a
>>  commissioned painting by an artist before then that combine with my
>ability
>>  makes for great story in great history behind the value of this painting.
>>
>> 
>>
>>  I hope you will find it in your heart to want this painting in your
>>  possession.  I am actually graduating from the Art Institute online, a
>>  bachelor's degree in game art and design December 13.  I'm receiving a
>>  Dean's merit award onstage in Pittsburgh for graduation, the student with
>>  the most perseverance, accomplish the most, and represents the heart of a
>  > student.  I hope I'll see a lot of you have my graduation party coming up.
>>  Stay tuned.
>>
>> 
>>
>> 
>>
>>  Have a great holiday and I wish you the best.
>>
>> 
>>
>>  Your friend.
>>
>> 
>>
>>  Robert Florio
>>
>>  www.RobertFlorio.com 
>>
>>                                         
>>
>>  _______________________________________________
>>  games_access mailing list
>>  games_access at igda.org
>>  http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>
>>  
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access



From arthit73 at cablespeed.com  Sun Dec  9 19:28:31 2007
From: arthit73 at cablespeed.com (Robert Florio)
Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 19:28:31 -0500
Subject: [games_access] Robert Florio's painting,
	on eBay now.  Raising funds.
In-Reply-To: AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIzEiiwA
References: <082a01c836c3$91e648d0$0202a8c0@oneswitch><F3551A40-BF1F-42E1-B580-3887037C8FA0@pininteractive.com><007f01c8376b$a51d5350$6501a8c0@Inspiron><p06230903c37ca70c9cec@130.126.29.74><836db6300712051557k78ef7fcds55d376c4ca0046de@mail.gmail.com><p0623090bc37cf2ea650a@[130.126.29.74]>AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIyEaSwA<000001c83ab9$016f6ee0$6501a8c0@Inspiron>AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIzkiSwA<000601c83aba$5d24f3d0$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
	AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIzEiiwA
Message-ID: <000e01c83ac3$9ac4c680$6501a8c0@Inspiron>

Thanks.  Sorry about that.  I didn't have a link to send one person to all
of the separate auctions.  So I send you their my web page and on that page
are that easy to click the links to the auction.  Thanks.  I hope that
helps.

Robert

-----Original Message-----
From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
On Behalf Of d. michelle hinn
Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2007 6:42 PM
To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
Subject: Re: [games_access] Robert Florio's painting, on eBay now. Raising
funds.

I think Mark's talking about the ebay links from 
your homepage that you sent us to:

>  To Bid Go Here.
>
>  http://www.robertflorio.com/Auctioned_Paintings.html

I also cannot get to the ebay auctions for the paintings. Same error
message.

Michelle

>Okay here is again.  Baltimore Sun first page front-page story.
>http://www.baltimoresun.com/entertainment/bal-te.to.painter04dec04,0,748861
8
>.story
>
>Robert
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
>On Behalf Of Ioo
>Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2007 6:17 PM
>To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
>Subject: Re: [games_access] Robert Florio's painting, on eBay now. Raising
>funds.
>
>Robert the link on that page goes to...
>
>
>		*This listing (330195935943) has been removed or is no
>longer
>available. Please make sure you entered the right item number. *
>If the listing was removed by eBay, consider it canceled. Note: Listings
>that have ended more than 90 days ago will no longer appear on eBay.
>
>
>
>Robert Florio wrote:
>>  Hi I'm just sending you a quick message to get the word out.  I finished
a
>>  huge portrait for the Babe Ruth Museum title, The Golden Babe, i'm
hoping
>>  that This EBay Auction Only Few of the Reproductions on Who Gets Your
>>  Attention or You Can Spread the Word to Other People.  If I can raise
>enough
>>  funds I can afford going to GDC.
>>
>> 
>>
>  > To Bid Go Here.
>>
>  > http://www.robertflorio.com/Auctioned_Paintings.html 
>>
>> 
>>
>>  Front page the Baltimore Sun story.
>>
>>
>http://www.baltimoresun.com/entertainment/bal-te.to.painter04dec04,0,748861
8
>>  .story 
>>
>> 
>>
>>  It is an 18 x 24 painting I did with my mouth of Babe Ruth.  I was also
>>  recently in the front page of the Baltimore Sun newspaper.  Check out
that
>>  article.  I hope I get more reaction on the reproductions.
>>
>> 
>>
>>  God bless you all and have a great and wonderful holiday.
>>
>> 
>>
>> 
>>
>>  A few of these reproductions are signed by big-name baseball athletes
>>  including Alex Rodr?guez, Kevin Mallar, Brian Roberts, Nick Markakis.
>>
>> 
>>
>>  I hope to get your help if you will to spread the word and see some
>>  reproductions of a beautiful piece of artwork.  If you're interested in
>>  purchasing the original please let me know and we can arrange that.
>>
>> 
>>
>>  In Baltimore city on 216 Emory St. you can see the original painting
where
>>  it is now on location for a limited time at the actual Babe Ruth Museum
>and
>>  birthplace.
>>
>> 
>>
>>  This online auction currently starts now on eBay and it is ending in 10
>days
>>  December 18.  It has a reserve price on it but the bid starts at $50.
I'm
>>  hoping to get at least $200 and $300 on them.  Might seem like a lot of
>>  money but considering these are limited reproduction I only reproduced
14,
>>  and only these are signed by one of the athletes one of them each by the
>>  four athletes ever signed by them no more.  Please spread the word and
>take
>>  a bid it will be a great piece of collection.
>>
>> 
>>
>>  It certainly would be heart-wrenching if they do not get bided on.
>>
>> 
>>
>>  I've had the pleasure to share my talent in my story with you over the
>>  years.  Once I finally get a great opportunity to paint an amazing
>painting
>>  and share it with you is your opportunity to have it in your house.  I
>don't
>>  think too many of these things for people to have available but this is
an
>>  incredible opportunity.  The Babe Ruth Museum never auctioned off war
had
>a
>>  commissioned painting by an artist before then that combine with my
>ability
>>  makes for great story in great history behind the value of this
painting.
>>
>> 
>>
>>  I hope you will find it in your heart to want this painting in your
>>  possession.  I am actually graduating from the Art Institute online, a
>>  bachelor's degree in game art and design December 13.  I'm receiving a
>>  Dean's merit award onstage in Pittsburgh for graduation, the student
with
>>  the most perseverance, accomplish the most, and represents the heart of
a
>  > student.  I hope I'll see a lot of you have my graduation party coming
up.
>>  Stay tuned.
>>
>> 
>>
>> 
>>
>>  Have a great holiday and I wish you the best.
>>
>> 
>>
>>  Your friend.
>>
>> 
>>
>>  Robert Florio
>>
>>  www.RobertFlorio.com 
>>
>>                                         
>>
>>  _______________________________________________
>>  games_access mailing list
>>  games_access at igda.org
>>  http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>
>>  
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access

_______________________________________________
games_access mailing list
games_access at igda.org
http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access



From hinn at uiuc.edu  Sun Dec  9 20:20:39 2007
From: hinn at uiuc.edu (d. michelle hinn)
Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 19:20:39 -0600
Subject: [games_access] Robert Florio's painting,
 on eBay now.  Raising funds.
In-Reply-To: <000e01c83ac3$9ac4c680$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
References: <082a01c836c3$91e648d0$0202a8c0@oneswitch><F3551A40-BF1F-42E1-B580-3887037
	C8FA0@pininteractive.com><007f01c8376b$a51d5350$6501a8c0@Inspiron><p062309
	03c37ca70c9cec@130.126.29.74><836db6300712051557k78ef7fcds55d376c4ca0046de
	@mail.gmail.com><p0623090bc37cf2ea650a@[130.126.29.74]>AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4
	sBa5lcIyEaSwA<000001c83ab9$016f6ee0$6501a8c0@Inspiron>AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4s
	Ba5lcIzkiSwA<000601c83aba$5d24f3d0$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
	AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIzEiiwA
	<000e01c83ac3$9ac4c680$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
Message-ID: <p0623093ac382440a3eda@[130.126.29.74]>

I think you might be misunderstanding us, Robert. 
When we go to your homepage that has all the 
"click here" to bid on ebay, none of the links 
take us to a painting. Instead we get an error 
message that says:

"This listing (330195935943) has been removed or 
is no longer available. Please make sure you 
entered the right item number. If the listing was 
removed by eBay, consider it canceled."

So no one can bid because all the listings have 
been removed or cancelled by ebay -- so you might 
want to check with the person who set up the ebay 
stuff if it wasn't you to see if they can fix 
that.

Michelle

>Thanks.  Sorry about that.  I didn't have a link to send one person to all
>of the separate auctions.  So I send you their my web page and on that page
>are that easy to click the links to the auction.  Thanks.  I hope that
>helps.
>
>Robert
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
>On Behalf Of d. michelle hinn
>Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2007 6:42 PM
>To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
>Subject: Re: [games_access] Robert Florio's painting, on eBay now. Raising
>funds.
>
>I think Mark's talking about the ebay links from
>your homepage that you sent us to:
>
>>   To Bid Go Here.
>>
>>   http://www.robertflorio.com/Auctioned_Paintings.html
>
>I also cannot get to the ebay auctions for the paintings. Same error
>message.
>
>Michelle
>
>>Okay here is again.  Baltimore Sun first page front-page story.
>>http://www.baltimoresun.com/entertainment/bal-te.to.painter04dec04,0,748861
>8
>>.story
>>
>>Robert
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
>>On Behalf Of Ioo
>>Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2007 6:17 PM
>>To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
>>Subject: Re: [games_access] Robert Florio's painting, on eBay now. Raising
>>funds.
>>
>>Robert the link on that page goes to...
>>
>>
>  >		*This listing (330195935943) has been removed or is no
>>longer
>>available. Please make sure you entered the right item number. *
>>If the listing was removed by eBay, consider it canceled. Note: Listings
>  >that have ended more than 90 days ago will no longer appear on eBay.
>>
>>
>>
>>Robert Florio wrote:
>>>   Hi I'm just sending you a quick message to get the word out.  I finished
>a
>>>   huge portrait for the Babe Ruth Museum title, The Golden Babe, i'm
>hoping
>>>   that This EBay Auction Only Few of the Reproductions on Who Gets Your
>>>   Attention or You Can Spread the Word to Other People.  If I can raise
>>enough
>>>   funds I can afford going to GDC.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>   > To Bid Go Here.
>>>
>>   > http://www.robertflorio.com/Auctioned_Paintings.html
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   Front page the Baltimore Sun story.
>>>
>>>
>>http://www.baltimoresun.com/entertainment/bal-te.to.painter04dec04,0,748861
>8
>>>   .story
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   It is an 18 x 24 painting I did with my mouth of Babe Ruth.  I was also
>>>   recently in the front page of the Baltimore Sun newspaper.  Check out
>that
>>>   article.  I hope I get more reaction on the reproductions.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   God bless you all and have a great and wonderful holiday.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   A few of these reproductions are signed by big-name baseball athletes
>>>   including Alex Rodr?guez, Kevin Mallar, Brian Roberts, Nick Markakis.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   I hope to get your help if you will to spread the word and see some
>>>   reproductions of a beautiful piece of artwork.  If you're interested in
>>>   purchasing the original please let me know and we can arrange that.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   In Baltimore city on 216 Emory St. you can see the original painting
>where
>>>   it is now on location for a limited time at the actual Babe Ruth Museum
>>and
>>>   birthplace.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   This online auction currently starts now on eBay and it is ending in 10
>>days
>>>   December 18.  It has a reserve price on it but the bid starts at $50.
>I'm
>>>   hoping to get at least $200 and $300 on them.  Might seem like a lot of
>  >>  money but considering these are limited reproduction I only reproduced
>14,
>>>   and only these are signed by one of the athletes one of them each by the
>>>   four athletes ever signed by them no more.  Please spread the word and
>>take
>>>   a bid it will be a great piece of collection.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   It certainly would be heart-wrenching if they do not get bided on.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   I've had the pleasure to share my talent in my story with you over the
>>>   years.  Once I finally get a great opportunity to paint an amazing
>>painting
>>>   and share it with you is your opportunity to have it in your house.  I
>>don't
>>>   think too many of these things for people to have available but this is
>an
>>>   incredible opportunity.  The Babe Ruth Museum never auctioned off war
>had
>>a
>>>   commissioned painting by an artist before then that combine with my
>>ability
>>>   makes for great story in great history behind the value of this
>painting.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   I hope you will find it in your heart to want this painting in your
>>>   possession.  I am actually graduating from the Art Institute online, a
>>>   bachelor's degree in game art and design December 13.  I'm receiving a
>>>   Dean's merit award onstage in Pittsburgh for graduation, the student
>with
>>>   the most perseverance, accomplish the most, and represents the heart of
>a
>>   > student.  I hope I'll see a lot of you have my graduation party coming
>up.
>>>   Stay tuned.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   Have a great holiday and I wish you the best.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   Your friend.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   Robert Florio
>>>
>>>   www.RobertFlorio.com
>>>
>>>                                        
>>>
>>>   _______________________________________________
>>>   games_access mailing list
>>>   games_access at igda.org
>>>   http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>
>>> 
>>_______________________________________________
>>games_access mailing list
>>games_access at igda.org
>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>games_access mailing list
>>games_access at igda.org
>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access



From arthit73 at cablespeed.com  Mon Dec 10 13:47:38 2007
From: arthit73 at cablespeed.com (Robert Florio)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 13:47:38 -0500
Subject: [games_access] Robert Florio's painting,
	on eBay now.  Raising funds.
In-Reply-To: AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIzkjCwA
References: <082a01c836c3$91e648d0$0202a8c0@oneswitch><F3551A40-BF1F-42E1-B580-3887037C8FA0@pininteractive.com><007f01c8376b$a51d5350$6501a8c0@Inspiron><p06230903c37ca70c9cec@130.126.29.74><836db6300712051557k78ef7fcds55d376c4ca0046de@mail.gmail.com><p0623090bc37cf2ea650a@[130.126.29.74]>AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIyEaSwA<000001c83ab9$016f6ee0$6501a8c0@Inspiron>AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIzkiSwA<000601c83aba$5d24f3d0$6501a8c0@Inspiron>AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIzEiiwA<000e01c83ac3$9ac4c680$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
	AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIzkjCwA
Message-ID: <007501c83b5d$28e39560$6501a8c0@Inspiron>

Thanks yes I did misunderstand you guys then.oh no.  That's weird when I
click on it it takes me right there.  Let me try it again to fix it.

Robert

-----Original Message-----
From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
On Behalf Of d. michelle hinn
Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2007 8:21 PM
To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
Subject: Re: [games_access] Robert Florio's painting, on eBay now. Raising
funds.

I think you might be misunderstanding us, Robert. 
When we go to your homepage that has all the 
"click here" to bid on ebay, none of the links 
take us to a painting. Instead we get an error 
message that says:

"This listing (330195935943) has been removed or 
is no longer available. Please make sure you 
entered the right item number. If the listing was 
removed by eBay, consider it canceled."

So no one can bid because all the listings have 
been removed or cancelled by ebay -- so you might 
want to check with the person who set up the ebay 
stuff if it wasn't you to see if they can fix 
that.

Michelle

>Thanks.  Sorry about that.  I didn't have a link to send one person to all
>of the separate auctions.  So I send you their my web page and on that page
>are that easy to click the links to the auction.  Thanks.  I hope that
>helps.
>
>Robert
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
>On Behalf Of d. michelle hinn
>Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2007 6:42 PM
>To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
>Subject: Re: [games_access] Robert Florio's painting, on eBay now. Raising
>funds.
>
>I think Mark's talking about the ebay links from
>your homepage that you sent us to:
>
>>   To Bid Go Here.
>>
>>   http://www.robertflorio.com/Auctioned_Paintings.html
>
>I also cannot get to the ebay auctions for the paintings. Same error
>message.
>
>Michelle
>
>>Okay here is again.  Baltimore Sun first page front-page story.
>>http://www.baltimoresun.com/entertainment/bal-te.to.painter04dec04,0,74886
1
>8
>>.story
>>
>>Robert
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
>>On Behalf Of Ioo
>>Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2007 6:17 PM
>>To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
>>Subject: Re: [games_access] Robert Florio's painting, on eBay now. Raising
>>funds.
>>
>>Robert the link on that page goes to...
>>
>>
>  >		*This listing (330195935943) has been removed or is no
>>longer
>>available. Please make sure you entered the right item number. *
>>If the listing was removed by eBay, consider it canceled. Note: Listings
>  >that have ended more than 90 days ago will no longer appear on eBay.
>>
>>
>>
>>Robert Florio wrote:
>>>   Hi I'm just sending you a quick message to get the word out.  I
finished
>a
>>>   huge portrait for the Babe Ruth Museum title, The Golden Babe, i'm
>hoping
>>>   that This EBay Auction Only Few of the Reproductions on Who Gets Your
>>>   Attention or You Can Spread the Word to Other People.  If I can raise
>>enough
>>>   funds I can afford going to GDC.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>   > To Bid Go Here.
>>>
>>   > http://www.robertflorio.com/Auctioned_Paintings.html
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   Front page the Baltimore Sun story.
>>>
>>>
>>http://www.baltimoresun.com/entertainment/bal-te.to.painter04dec04,0,74886
1
>8
>>>   .story
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   It is an 18 x 24 painting I did with my mouth of Babe Ruth.  I was
also
>>>   recently in the front page of the Baltimore Sun newspaper.  Check out
>that
>>>   article.  I hope I get more reaction on the reproductions.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   God bless you all and have a great and wonderful holiday.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   A few of these reproductions are signed by big-name baseball athletes
>>>   including Alex Rodr?guez, Kevin Mallar, Brian Roberts, Nick Markakis.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   I hope to get your help if you will to spread the word and see some
>>>   reproductions of a beautiful piece of artwork.  If you're interested
in
>>>   purchasing the original please let me know and we can arrange that.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   In Baltimore city on 216 Emory St. you can see the original painting
>where
>>>   it is now on location for a limited time at the actual Babe Ruth
Museum
>>and
>>>   birthplace.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   This online auction currently starts now on eBay and it is ending in
10
>>days
>>>   December 18.  It has a reserve price on it but the bid starts at $50.
>I'm
>>>   hoping to get at least $200 and $300 on them.  Might seem like a lot
of
>  >>  money but considering these are limited reproduction I only
reproduced
>14,
>>>   and only these are signed by one of the athletes one of them each by
the
>>>   four athletes ever signed by them no more.  Please spread the word and
>>take
>>>   a bid it will be a great piece of collection.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   It certainly would be heart-wrenching if they do not get bided on.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   I've had the pleasure to share my talent in my story with you over the
>>>   years.  Once I finally get a great opportunity to paint an amazing
>>painting
>>>   and share it with you is your opportunity to have it in your house.  I
>>don't
>>>   think too many of these things for people to have available but this
is
>an
>>>   incredible opportunity.  The Babe Ruth Museum never auctioned off war
>had
>>a
>>>   commissioned painting by an artist before then that combine with my
>>ability
>>>   makes for great story in great history behind the value of this
>painting.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   I hope you will find it in your heart to want this painting in your
>>>   possession.  I am actually graduating from the Art Institute online, a
>>>   bachelor's degree in game art and design December 13.  I'm receiving a
>>>   Dean's merit award onstage in Pittsburgh for graduation, the student
>with
>>>   the most perseverance, accomplish the most, and represents the heart
of
>a
>>   > student.  I hope I'll see a lot of you have my graduation party
coming
>up.
>>>   Stay tuned.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   Have a great holiday and I wish you the best.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   Your friend.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   Robert Florio
>>>
>>>   www.RobertFlorio.com
>>>
>>>                                        
>>>
>>>   _______________________________________________
>>>   games_access mailing list
>>>   games_access at igda.org
>>>   http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>
>>> 
>>_______________________________________________
>>games_access mailing list
>>games_access at igda.org
>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>games_access mailing list
>>games_access at igda.org
>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access

_______________________________________________
games_access mailing list
games_access at igda.org
http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access



From thomas at pininteractive.com  Tue Dec 11 10:11:59 2007
From: thomas at pininteractive.com (Thomas Westin)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 16:11:59 +0100
Subject: [games_access] GAIM 0.02 updated
Message-ID: <5667BDB5-7E5D-4E04-BEA7-A2DDAAA4D5EE@pininteractive.com>

Hello all,

I have updated GAIM with yet another diagram (more to come... all work  
in progress so please give feedback!)

at the bottom of this page you find links to the current documents

http://people.dsv.su.se/~thomasw/gaim

/Thomas

Pin Interactive AB
:: Digital Culture Analysis :: Tools :: Worlds

+46 (0)706 400 402

Time zone: GMT+1 , PST+9



From arthit73 at cablespeed.com  Tue Dec 11 12:02:23 2007
From: arthit73 at cablespeed.com (Robert Florio)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 12:02:23 -0500
Subject: [games_access] GAIM 0.02 updated
In-Reply-To: <5667BDB5-7E5D-4E04-BEA7-A2DDAAA4D5EE@pininteractive.com>
References: <5667BDB5-7E5D-4E04-BEA7-A2DDAAA4D5EE@pininteractive.com>
Message-ID: <011101c83c17$9f6d3d70$6501a8c0@Inspiron>

Looks awesome.  I don't know scripting or programming so I would be lost.
Is there a way to do this without the programming?  I mean I would suggest
picking a genre and then at a certain point of design you can start, having
developers and everyone see that page that would be necessary to start
making it accessible.  I've done this with top-secret.

The problem is if no one else supports the idea the accessible features get
dropped just like top-secret is doing if I don't contact I think they will
not even care to make the parts accessible that I already designed.

Here is what you wrote.  " There are descriptions such as guidelines, design
patterns and white papers. There are also a quite large number of games and
other resources. The missing link, as I see it, is in-between the
descriptions and the actual implementations."

You might want to give an example of what this in-between stage it is
because I'm confused.  What else is there in between I think the actual act
of doing it is the implementation I don't know what is in-between.

Thanks
Robert

-----Original Message-----
From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
On Behalf Of Thomas Westin
Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2007 10:12 AM
To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
Subject: [games_access] GAIM 0.02 updated

Hello all,

I have updated GAIM with yet another diagram (more to come... all work  
in progress so please give feedback!)

at the bottom of this page you find links to the current documents

http://people.dsv.su.se/~thomasw/gaim

/Thomas

Pin Interactive AB
:: Digital Culture Analysis :: Tools :: Worlds

+46 (0)706 400 402

Time zone: GMT+1 , PST+9

_______________________________________________
games_access mailing list
games_access at igda.org
http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access



From richard at audiogames.net  Tue Dec 11 15:44:14 2007
From: richard at audiogames.net (AudioGames.net)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 21:44:14 +0100
Subject: [games_access] GAIM 0.02 updated
References: <5667BDB5-7E5D-4E04-BEA7-A2DDAAA4D5EE@pininteractive.com>
Message-ID: <000a01c83c36$995e6520$6402a8c0@Delletje>

Hi Thomas,

Great work!!! Ties in really well I think with the current state of the 
field of game accessibility. It also ties in perfectly I think with what I'm 
currently busy with: a small interactive presentation of my 9+1 steps to 
Game Accessibility (see http://www2.hku.nl/~mosh/ga/gatheoryshort038.doc), 
which will consist of a single image 
(http://www2.hku.nl/~mosh/ga/gameaccfield086.jpg - under construction so if 
things are not yet clear don't be alarmed) illustrating the different parts 
to game accessibility. The target audience is the mainstream game industry 
and the concept is that this is the building scheme of "The Accessible Game 
Accessibility" (possibly just invented by fictive Professor [insertname] - 
who might even show up to explain his invention). In the presentation, I 
intend to provide descriptions and examples on mouseover/focus on the 
individual parts, describing the part and highlighting how that part is 
connected to one or more other parts. This is of course a simple overview 
and I do not provide specific solutions. For example, Key Point #5 
(Assistance - depicted by the Butler figure) will show a descriptive text of 
the key point, as well as some examples of functionality such as Ghost, 
Tutorial Agent, Pass and Navigation/Orientation Assistance. But I will not 
desribe how to build such functionality. And I think that this is where your 
work comes in :)

Your diagrams are very clear and impressive and look forward to more of 
them!

Greets,

Richard


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Thomas Westin" <thomas at pininteractive.com>
To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2007 4:11 PM
Subject: [games_access] GAIM 0.02 updated


> Hello all,
>
> I have updated GAIM with yet another diagram (more to come... all work  in 
> progress so please give feedback!)
>
> at the bottom of this page you find links to the current documents
>
> http://people.dsv.su.se/~thomasw/gaim
>
> /Thomas
>
> Pin Interactive AB
> :: Digital Culture Analysis :: Tools :: Worlds
>
> +46 (0)706 400 402
>
> Time zone: GMT+1 , PST+9
>
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access 



From jbannick at 7128.com  Tue Dec 11 19:29:31 2007
From: jbannick at 7128.com (John Bannick)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 19:29:31 -0500
Subject: [games_access] GAIM 0.02 updated
In-Reply-To: <5667BDB5-7E5D-4E04-BEA7-A2DDAAA4D5EE@pininteractive.com>
References: <5667BDB5-7E5D-4E04-BEA7-A2DDAAA4D5EE@pininteractive.com>
Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.2.20071211192649.01da7050@enigami.com>

Thomas,

Just got a first look at your overview and the two diagrams.

Am I correct in observing that you are applying the (GoF) Facade and / or 
Adaptor patterns, in a general sense, in order to simplify and rationalize 
the relationship between an application and one or more assistive technologies?

If so, it's an elegant solution.

And your One Switch Designer tool  presents a succinct demonstration of how 
this approach might be implemented.

Maybe I'm just dense, but I don't understand where the Sound Compass 
diagram fits in. No complaint or criticism. Probably will become clear as 
you progress.

Rock on,

John

At 10:11 AM 12/11/2007, you wrote:
>Hello all,
>
>I have updated GAIM with yet another diagram (more to come... all work
>in progress so please give feedback!)
>
>at the bottom of this page you find links to the current documents
>
>http://people.dsv.su.se/~thomasw/gaim
>
>/Thomas
>
>Pin Interactive AB
>:: Digital Culture Analysis :: Tools :: Worlds
>
>+46 (0)706 400 402
>
>Time zone: GMT+1 , PST+9
>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>
>--
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 
>269.17.1/1181 - Release Date: 12/11/2007 5:05 PM



From eelke.folmer at gmail.com  Tue Dec 11 19:53:40 2007
From: eelke.folmer at gmail.com (Eelke Folmer)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 16:53:40 -0800
Subject: [games_access] article in escapist magazine
Message-ID: <836db6300712111653m12921df4j39ee9f0c9cf4d97@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/issues/issue_127/2708-Gaming-Ability

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eelke Folmer                           Assistant Professor
Department of CS&E/171
University of Nevada              Reno, Nevada 89557
Game interaction design        www.helpyouplay.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------------


From reid at rbkdesign.com  Tue Dec 11 19:56:08 2007
From: reid at rbkdesign.com (Reid Kimball)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 16:56:08 -0800
Subject: [games_access] article in escapist magazine
In-Reply-To: <836db6300712111653m12921df4j39ee9f0c9cf4d97@mail.gmail.com>
References: <836db6300712111653m12921df4j39ee9f0c9cf4d97@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a6673b8d0712111656w2578ad13xa9ffb287c30d1646@mail.gmail.com>

You're also in the latest Game Developer mag. Nice job!

On Dec 11, 2007 4:53 PM, Eelke Folmer <eelke.folmer at gmail.com> wrote:
> http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/issues/issue_127/2708-Gaming-Ability
>
> --
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Eelke Folmer                           Assistant Professor
> Department of CS&E/171
> University of Nevada              Reno, Nevada 89557
> Game interaction design        www.helpyouplay.com
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>


From reid at rbkdesign.com  Tue Dec 11 20:13:33 2007
From: reid at rbkdesign.com (Reid Kimball)
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 17:13:33 -0800
Subject: [games_access] article in escapist magazine
In-Reply-To: <a6673b8d0712111656w2578ad13xa9ffb287c30d1646@mail.gmail.com>
References: <836db6300712111653m12921df4j39ee9f0c9cf4d97@mail.gmail.com>
	<a6673b8d0712111656w2578ad13xa9ffb287c30d1646@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a6673b8d0712111713tc0d3df3ta8dead525648bcb7@mail.gmail.com>

Oh, someone else wrote the escapist article, very cool.

Unfortunately, GTA: San Andreas is not captioned as the author states.
What she's talking about is subtitles.

- Subtitles = dialog
- Captions = dialog + sound effects and music
- Open Captions = equal captions that are burned into the video signal
and can't be turned off
- Closed captions = equal captions that are encoded into the video or
game data and can be turned on or off at will

-Reid

On Dec 11, 2007 4:56 PM, Reid Kimball <reid at rbkdesign.com> wrote:
> You're also in the latest Game Developer mag. Nice job!
>
>
> On Dec 11, 2007 4:53 PM, Eelke Folmer <eelke.folmer at gmail.com> wrote:
> > http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/issues/issue_127/2708-Gaming-Ability
> >
> > --
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Eelke Folmer                           Assistant Professor
> > Department of CS&E/171
> > University of Nevada              Reno, Nevada 89557
> > Game interaction design        www.helpyouplay.com
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > _______________________________________________
> > games_access mailing list
> > games_access at igda.org
> > http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
> >
>


From jbannick at 7128.com  Wed Dec 12 16:49:23 2007
From: jbannick at 7128.com (John Bannick)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 16:49:23 -0500
Subject: [games_access] article in escapist magazine
In-Reply-To: <a6673b8d0712111713tc0d3df3ta8dead525648bcb7@mail.gmail.com
 >
References: <836db6300712111653m12921df4j39ee9f0c9cf4d97@mail.gmail.com>
	<a6673b8d0712111656w2578ad13xa9ffb287c30d1646@mail.gmail.com>
	<a6673b8d0712111713tc0d3df3ta8dead525648bcb7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.2.20071212164849.01debc58@enigami.com>

Reid,

Thanks for this.
I was just about to ask what Open vs. Closed captions were.

John Bannick

At 08:13 PM 12/11/2007, you wrote:
>Oh, someone else wrote the escapist article, very cool.
>
>Unfortunately, GTA: San Andreas is not captioned as the author states.
>What she's talking about is subtitles.
>
>- Subtitles = dialog
>- Captions = dialog + sound effects and music
>- Open Captions = equal captions that are burned into the video signal
>and can't be turned off
>- Closed captions = equal captions that are encoded into the video or
>game data and can be turned on or off at will
>
>-Reid
>
>On Dec 11, 2007 4:56 PM, Reid Kimball <reid at rbkdesign.com> wrote:
> > You're also in the latest Game Developer mag. Nice job!
> >
> >
> > On Dec 11, 2007 4:53 PM, Eelke Folmer <eelke.folmer at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > 
> http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/issues/issue_127/2708-Gaming-Ability
> > >
> > > --
> > > 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > Eelke Folmer                           Assistant Professor
> > > Department of CS&E/171
> > > University of Nevada              Reno, Nevada 89557
> > > Game interaction design        www.helpyouplay.com
> > > 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > games_access mailing list
> > > games_access at igda.org
> > > http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
> > >
> >
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>
>--
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.17.1/1182 - Release Date: 
>12/12/2007 11:29 AM



From barrie.ellis at oneswitch.org.uk  Wed Dec 12 17:20:11 2007
From: barrie.ellis at oneswitch.org.uk (Barrie Ellis)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 22:20:11 -0000
Subject: [games_access] article in escapist magazine
References: <836db6300712111653m12921df4j39ee9f0c9cf4d97@mail.gmail.com><a6673b8d0712111656w2578ad13xa9ffb287c30d1646@mail.gmail.com><a6673b8d0712111713tc0d3df3ta8dead525648bcb7@mail.gmail.com>
	<6.1.0.6.2.20071212164849.01debc58@enigami.com>
Message-ID: <01c501c83d0d$29a81690$0202a8c0@oneswitch>

In the UK, pre-digital TV, we had (and still have) a service where you could
turn text "subtitles" on by dialling 888 on your remote. These "subtitles"
included description of music, sound effects, and would be coloured to
denote different characters speaking. As we understand it now, these are
closed-captions - but most people don't know the difference. I didn't until
I came across Reid.

Barrie

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John Bannick" <jbannick at 7128.com>
To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2007 9:49 PM
Subject: Re: [games_access] article in escapist magazine


> Reid,
>
> Thanks for this.
> I was just about to ask what Open vs. Closed captions were.
>
> John Bannick
>
> At 08:13 PM 12/11/2007, you wrote:
>>Oh, someone else wrote the escapist article, very cool.
>>
>>Unfortunately, GTA: San Andreas is not captioned as the author states.
>>What she's talking about is subtitles.
>>
>>- Subtitles = dialog
>>- Captions = dialog + sound effects and music
>>- Open Captions = equal captions that are burned into the video signal
>>and can't be turned off
>>- Closed captions = equal captions that are encoded into the video or
>>game data and can be turned on or off at will
>>
>>-Reid
>>
>>On Dec 11, 2007 4:56 PM, Reid Kimball <reid at rbkdesign.com> wrote:
>> > You're also in the latest Game Developer mag. Nice job!
>> >
>> >
>> > On Dec 11, 2007 4:53 PM, Eelke Folmer <eelke.folmer at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >
>> http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/issues/issue_127/2708-Gaming-Ability
>> > >
>> > > --
>> > >
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > > Eelke Folmer                           Assistant Professor
>> > > Department of CS&E/171
>> > > University of Nevada              Reno, Nevada 89557
>> > > Game interaction design        www.helpyouplay.com
>> > >
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > games_access mailing list
>> > > games_access at igda.org
>> > > http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>> > >
>> >
>>_______________________________________________
>>games_access mailing list
>>games_access at igda.org
>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>
>>
>>--
>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.17.1/1182 - Release Date: 
>>12/12/2007 11:29 AM
>
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access





From hinn at uiuc.edu  Wed Dec 12 21:25:09 2007
From: hinn at uiuc.edu (d. michelle hinn)
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 20:25:09 -0600
Subject: [games_access] article in escapist magazine
In-Reply-To: <01c501c83d0d$29a81690$0202a8c0@oneswitch>
References: <836db6300712111653m12921df4j39ee9f0c9cf4d97@mail.gmail.com><a6673b8d07121
	11656w2578ad13xa9ffb287c30d1646@mail.gmail.com><a6673b8d0712111713tc0d3df3
	ta8dead525648bcb7@mail.gmail.com>
	<6.1.0.6.2.20071212164849.01debc58@enigami.com>
	<01c501c83d0d$29a81690$0202a8c0@oneswitch>
Message-ID: <p06230904c38640b641b4@[130.126.29.12]>

Yes, I had not learned the difference until I meant Reid as well! We 
also can turn on captioning with a remote -- a lot of them will 
automatically put in captions when you hit the "mute" button on the 
remote. But you know I thought that you couldn't have them if it was 
recorded on a DVR (like Tivo) but I just hit the mute button on that 
controller and sure enough, the captions began going across the 
screen. It's my understanding that if you taped a show on video 
cassette that you couldn't call up the captions after the fact, that 
you had to set the TV to closed captioning being on at all times 
(bunch of menu buttons get you to that option). Which was annoying 
because I would show video clips in class on a VCR long ago when I 
taught a large lecture section (300+ students) and the sound system 
was bad, those in the top rows couldn't hear and having captions on 
would have been better -- and that didn't even take deaf students 
into the calculations.

When we were talking about legal/government routes and the lessons 
that could be learned from the movie industry about their captioning 
I learned all the different ways that captions can appear (in that 
industry, a film shown in theatre might decide to put the captions on 
a small additional screen that fits below the main movie screen -- 
that, too, is considered "open captioning," which is not an ADA 
requirement). The courts ruled that closed captioning systems DO fall 
under the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) -- a type of closed 
captioning can be "seat-based" captioning where the patron needs to 
sit in a certain seat that is equipped for that. The ruling did not 
include open captioning -- so it's not law in the US that open 
captioning be required for films at movie theatres.

But...Seven years have passed since the courts mandated that NO 
closed captioning in movie theatres is in violation of the ADA. All 
that has resulted in is the courts been bogged down by lawsuit after 
lawsuit to every major theatre chain and even the filmmakers (who, of 
course, need theatres) and I cannot recall a single time I've been to 
a theatre that indicated any kind of "ask us about captioning" 
solutions. What I have learned is that political routes does not 
result in any type of quick change. Seven years and the organizations 
for the deaf are STILL launching lawsuits to get the law 
upheld...meanwhile? Very little change has occurred. If we think that 
we have a tough time as a group...think about how frustrated the 
groups trying to make theatres put in the captioning systems in must 
be! At least we have the chance to talk to developers directly at 
conferences like GDC.

Michelle

>In the UK, pre-digital TV, we had (and still have) a service where you could
>turn text "subtitles" on by dialling 888 on your remote. These "subtitles"
>included description of music, sound effects, and would be coloured to
>denote different characters speaking. As we understand it now, these are
>closed-captions - but most people don't know the difference. I didn't until
>I came across Reid.
>
>Barrie
>
>----- Original Message ----- From: "John Bannick" <jbannick at 7128.com>
>To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
>Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2007 9:49 PM
>Subject: Re: [games_access] article in escapist magazine
>
>>Reid,
>>
>>Thanks for this.
>>I was just about to ask what Open vs. Closed captions were.
>>
>>John Bannick
>>
>>At 08:13 PM 12/11/2007, you wrote:
>>>Oh, someone else wrote the escapist article, very cool.
>>>
>>>Unfortunately, GTA: San Andreas is not captioned as the author states.
>>>What she's talking about is subtitles.
>>>
>>>- Subtitles = dialog
>>>- Captions = dialog + sound effects and music
>>>- Open Captions = equal captions that are burned into the video signal
>>>and can't be turned off
>>>- Closed captions = equal captions that are encoded into the video or
>>>game data and can be turned on or off at will
>>>
>>>-Reid
>>>
>>>On Dec 11, 2007 4:56 PM, Reid Kimball <reid at rbkdesign.com> wrote:
>>>  > You're also in the latest Game Developer mag. Nice job!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  On Dec 11, 2007 4:53 PM, Eelke Folmer <eelke.folmer at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>  >
>>>http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/issues/issue_127/2708-Gaming-Ability
>>>>  >
>>>>  > --
>>>>  >
>>>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>  > Eelke Folmer                           Assistant Professor
>>>>  > Department of CS&E/171
>>>>  > University of Nevada              Reno, Nevada 89557
>>>>  > Game interaction design        www.helpyouplay.com
>>>>  >
>>>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>  > _______________________________________________
>>>>  > games_access mailing list
>>>>  > games_access at igda.org
>>>>  > http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>>  >
>>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>games_access mailing list
>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>
>>>
>>>--
>>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>>Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.17.1/1182 - Release Date: 
>>>12/12/2007 11:29 AM
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>games_access mailing list
>>games_access at igda.org
>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access



From reid at rbkdesign.com  Thu Dec 13 14:22:44 2007
From: reid at rbkdesign.com (Reid Kimball)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 11:22:44 -0800
Subject: [games_access] Has anyone done a Poster Session before at GDC?
Message-ID: <a6673b8d0712131122j377146abk1b03ef79cf451078@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,

Has anyone done a poster session at GDC before? I'm not getting the
info I need from CMP. I need examples of what other people have done,
in what format is info presented, is it like a science fair where
people mingle around the various poster sessions and stick around for
5 minutes or are they at the poster for 1 hr?

What kind of content goes on the 3.3 ft tall poster?

Any info would be appreciated.

-Reid


From hinn at uiuc.edu  Thu Dec 13 16:55:01 2007
From: hinn at uiuc.edu (d. michelle hinn)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 15:55:01 -0600
Subject: [games_access] Has anyone done a Poster Session before at GDC?
In-Reply-To: <a6673b8d0712131122j377146abk1b03ef79cf451078@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a6673b8d0712131122j377146abk1b03ef79cf451078@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <p06230903c38758930822@[130.126.29.12]>

I know someone that did a poster last year from Illinois -- I'll see 
if I can get any info from him.

Other poster sessions that I have done at other conferences, I 
sometimes had one page summary handouts and other times I had full 
papers (that was usually because I had to submit a paper and the 
proposal got accepted as a poster so I already had the paper done -- 
ie, don't write a full paper for this!). I've shown demos on a laptop 
before -- a lot of people do that. If the demo on a laptop is the 
focus than what is on the poster matters less because people won't be 
able to read it because you won't get that much space (maybe just a 
few feet) for people to get really close to the poster. However, we 
should find out if table space will be provided and power cords 
available because that's what you'll need to know with regard to 
showing a demo. If they only allow space to hang a poster than 
obviously what's on the poster is going to need to be the focus so 
you'll want to think about screen shots, etc.

It's definitely more like a science fair than a captive audience. 
People will wander back and forth around the posters -- some will 
just want to get a quick gist of everything and others will come 
specifically to find out and ask questions about a specific title 
that interests them.

Michelle

>Hi all,
>
>Has anyone done a poster session at GDC before? I'm not getting the
>info I need from CMP. I need examples of what other people have done,
>in what format is info presented, is it like a science fair where
>people mingle around the various poster sessions and stick around for
>5 minutes or are they at the poster for 1 hr?
>
>What kind of content goes on the 3.3 ft tall poster?
>
>Any info would be appreciated.
>
>-Reid
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access



From richard at audiogames.net  Thu Dec 13 17:08:22 2007
From: richard at audiogames.net (AudioGames.net)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 23:08:22 +0100
Subject: [games_access] Has anyone done a Poster Session before at GDC?
References: <a6673b8d0712131122j377146abk1b03ef79cf451078@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00d801c83dd4$ae7a7080$6402a8c0@Delletje>

I think Michelle, Eelke and/or Kevin know, they have done poster 
presentations before...


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Reid Kimball" <reid at rbkdesign.com>
To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2007 8:22 PM
Subject: [games_access] Has anyone done a Poster Session before at GDC?


> Hi all,
>
> Has anyone done a poster session at GDC before? I'm not getting the
> info I need from CMP. I need examples of what other people have done,
> in what format is info presented, is it like a science fair where
> people mingle around the various poster sessions and stick around for
> 5 minutes or are they at the poster for 1 hr?
>
> What kind of content goes on the 3.3 ft tall poster?
>
> Any info would be appreciated.
>
> -Reid
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access 



From thomas at pininteractive.com  Thu Dec 13 15:14:02 2007
From: thomas at pininteractive.com (Thomas Westin)
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 21:14:02 +0100
Subject: [games_access] GAIM 0.02 updated
Message-ID: <A7FE2FE6-A8D3-479D-8B26-1B3AA6505C28@pininteractive.com>

hi

yet another update of GAIM 0.02 is online at

http://people.dsv.su.se/~thomasw/gaim

/thomas




From thomas at pininteractive.com  Fri Dec 14 05:44:43 2007
From: thomas at pininteractive.com (Thomas Westin)
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 11:44:43 +0100
Subject: [games_access] GAIM 0.02 updated
In-Reply-To: <011101c83c17$9f6d3d70$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
References: <5667BDB5-7E5D-4E04-BEA7-A2DDAAA4D5EE@pininteractive.com>
	<011101c83c17$9f6d3d70$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
Message-ID: <F2C39786-D028-4769-BFA7-4B2260826414@pininteractive.com>

Hello Robert

Sorry for my late reply, I've recently updated my computer so I've  
been unable to _read_ mail for a few days

the in-between is like this:

if you have a guideline saying that all you must provide audio cues to  
visual information, it says nothing about how hard it is doing that in  
practice, i.e with code, which is the dark horse in planning resources  
(time and money) for a game. That's in my mind the biggest obstacle  
for convincing publishers about implementing game accessibility.

With UML you can communicate many things about a system, one of them  
are logic with a state diagram, another is the structure of a system  
with a class diagram, a third are use cases and so on.

So with the UML based model I'm designing developers can see all the  
necessary things to implement, without being langauge specific. I.e  
UML can be applied to any programming language; in fact many UML  
editors directly support Java, C/C++, Python and more.

Hope that helps

Kind regards
Thomas




11 dec 2007 kl. 18.02 skrev Robert Florio:

>
> You might want to give an example of what this in-between stage it is
> because I'm confused.  What else is there in between I think the  
> actual act
> of doing it is the implementation I don't know what is in-between.



From thomas at pininteractive.com  Fri Dec 14 05:49:19 2007
From: thomas at pininteractive.com (Thomas Westin)
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 11:49:19 +0100
Subject: [games_access] GAIM 0.02 updated
In-Reply-To: <000a01c83c36$995e6520$6402a8c0@Delletje>
References: <5667BDB5-7E5D-4E04-BEA7-A2DDAAA4D5EE@pininteractive.com>
	<000a01c83c36$995e6520$6402a8c0@Delletje>
Message-ID: <A9DE3A1A-195D-4AB3-B4AB-4A6B84D1E9AB@pininteractive.com>

Hello Richard

the images were no longer available but I think I get the idea

nice to hear you like it :)

yes, plenty more are in the pipeline

/Thomas

11 dec 2007 kl. 21.44 skrev AudioGames.net:

> . For example, Key Point #5 (Assistance - depicted by the Butler  
> figure) will show a descriptive text of the key point, as well as  
> some examples of functionality such as Ghost, Tutorial Agent, Pass  
> and Navigation/Orientation Assistance. But I will not desribe how to  
> build such functionality. And I think that this is where your work  
> comes in :)



From richard at audiogames.net  Fri Dec 14 06:25:28 2007
From: richard at audiogames.net (AudioGames.net)
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 12:25:28 +0100
Subject: [games_access] GAIM 0.02 updated
References: <5667BDB5-7E5D-4E04-BEA7-A2DDAAA4D5EE@pininteractive.com><000a01c83c36$995e6520$6402a8c0@Delletje>
	<A9DE3A1A-195D-4AB3-B4AB-4A6B84D1E9AB@pininteractive.com>
Message-ID: <001f01c83e44$19a5e5a0$6402a8c0@Delletje>

Hi,

Sorry, updated them... see files the folder:

http://www2.hku.nl/~mosh/ga/

And the pic was here: http://www2.hku.nl/~mosh/ga/gameaccfield125.jpg

Gaim update looks good! Glad to see your solutions for the blind :)

Greets,

Richard



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Thomas Westin" <thomas at pininteractive.com>
To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
Sent: Friday, December 14, 2007 11:49 AM
Subject: Re: [games_access] GAIM 0.02 updated


> Hello Richard
> 
> the images were no longer available but I think I get the idea
> 
> nice to hear you like it :)
> 
> yes, plenty more are in the pipeline
> 
> /Thomas
> 
> 11 dec 2007 kl. 21.44 skrev AudioGames.net:
> 
>> . For example, Key Point #5 (Assistance - depicted by the Butler  
>> figure) will show a descriptive text of the key point, as well as  
>> some examples of functionality such as Ghost, Tutorial Agent, Pass  
>> and Navigation/Orientation Assistance. But I will not desribe how to  
>> build such functionality. And I think that this is where your work  
>> comes in :)
> 
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access


From eelke.folmer at gmail.com  Fri Dec 14 18:46:56 2007
From: eelke.folmer at gmail.com (Eelke Folmer)
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 15:46:56 -0800
Subject: [games_access] GAIM 0.02 updated
In-Reply-To: <F2C39786-D028-4769-BFA7-4B2260826414@pininteractive.com>
References: <5667BDB5-7E5D-4E04-BEA7-A2DDAAA4D5EE@pininteractive.com>
	<011101c83c17$9f6d3d70$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
	<F2C39786-D028-4769-BFA7-4B2260826414@pininteractive.com>
Message-ID: <836db6300712141546kdde4789q18d76704df1261f2@mail.gmail.com>

Hey Thomas,

On 14/12/2007, Thomas Westin <thomas at pininteractive.com> wrote:

> if you have a guideline saying that all you must provide audio cues to
> visual information, it says nothing about how hard it is doing that in
> practice, i.e with code, which is the dark horse in planning resources
> (time and money) for a game. That's in my mind the biggest obstacle
> for convincing publishers about implementing game accessibility.

I think we need to distinguish two things here:

Usually a lead designer or an interaction designer does the high level
game design, either by a rudimentary prototype or even on paper. For
him a requirement such as " provide audio cues" might be useful as a
requirement, i.e. something that is specified in the  game design
document. What usually happens then is that this document is tossed
over the wall to a software engineer who then has is to figure out how
to implement this a requirement. Software engineers are not
interaction designers so they may not understand why or how this
requirement works.

What thomas and - I  also to some extent- try to do is translate such
a requirement into something that software engineers can understand;
either using UML or some class diagram, which can provide some hands
on advice on how to implement this requirement.

Though accessibility requirements can serve as requirements I do think
they have some serious shortcomings which limit their usability and
usefulness.

1) some of the requirements assume absolute validity but are actually
only applicable in very specific contexts; take the "provide audio
cues to visual information". A requirement as such does not make any
game accessible to the blind automatically. In our guitar hero
modification we were not able to use sound since music was already
playing and had to revert to haptic feedback. There is still a lot of
guesswork involved in tailoring this requirement to a specific game.
What usually happens is then that more requirements are specified that
deal with specific contexts. e.g. one could specify "for music games
use haptic feedback". Which usually results in a large number of
requirements for each exception.
2) There are too many; take for example a look at all the web
usability requirements there are out there. I found more than 200
different different usability heuristics for web design in the work of
my thesis. This makes it very hard for a developer to select the right
one including the danger that some of the requirements obviously
conflict. Nielsen  (a famous usability guru) specifies for example:
provide feedback but also keep things at a minimum. These two
statements do conflict. E.g. too much messages may overwhelm a user
and no messages may frustrate a user.
3) Another thing that I think is lacking with guidelines is that is
does not specify what problem it actually solves, why it works or how
it can be implemented. Provide audio feedback for visual information.
What problem does this solve? who benefits from this? Why does it
work? why does it have to be visual and not haptic? etc etc.
Guidelines are too prescriptive do this do that but they're not
constructive.

In order to make guidelines more usable as design tools i suggest they
should be used in conjunction with a richer description format;
interaction design patterns.
</shameless_self_promotion>  ;-)

Cheers Eelke






> With UML you can communicate many things about a system, one of them
> are logic with a state diagram, another is the structure of a system
> with a class diagram, a third are use cases and so on.
>
> So with the UML based model I'm designing developers can see all the
> necessary things to implement, without being langauge specific. I.e
> UML can be applied to any programming language; in fact many UML
> editors directly support Java, C/C++, Python and more.
>
> Hope that helps
>
> Kind regards
> Thomas
>
>
>
>
> 11 dec 2007 kl. 18.02 skrev Robert Florio:
>
> >
> > You might want to give an example of what this in-between stage it is
> > because I'm confused.  What else is there in between I think the
> > actual act
> > of doing it is the implementation I don't know what is in-between.
>
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>


-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eelke Folmer                           Assistant Professor
Department of CS&E/171
University of Nevada              Reno, Nevada 89557
Game interaction design        www.helpyouplay.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------------


From thomas at pininteractive.com  Sat Dec 15 03:24:25 2007
From: thomas at pininteractive.com (Thomas Westin)
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2007 09:24:25 +0100
Subject: [games_access] GAIM 0.02 updated
In-Reply-To: <836db6300712141546kdde4789q18d76704df1261f2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5667BDB5-7E5D-4E04-BEA7-A2DDAAA4D5EE@pininteractive.com><011101c83c17$9f6d3d70$6501a8c0@Inspiron><F2C39786-D028-4769-BFA7-4B2260826414@pininteractive.com>
	<836db6300712141546kdde4789q18d76704df1261f2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FFE85418-F732-421F-953B-FDE61F094DDA@pininteractive.com>

Hello Eelke,

yes I agree, I just took the guideline as an example, but at the GAIM  
site I also mention design patterns; as I go along I'll work on  
connecting both guidelines and patterns to each model.

Right now I'm focusing on demystifying game accessibility  
implementations by describing them in UML

/Thomas

15 dec 2007 kl. 00.46 skrev Eelke Folmer:

> In order to make guidelines more usable as design tools i suggest they
> should be used in conjunction with a richer description format;
> interaction design patterns.
> </shameless_self_promotion>  ;-)



From richard at audiogames.net  Sat Dec 15 08:41:25 2007
From: richard at audiogames.net (AudioGames.net)
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2007 14:41:25 +0100
Subject: [games_access] GAIM 0.02 updated
References: <5667BDB5-7E5D-4E04-BEA7-A2DDAAA4D5EE@pininteractive.com><011101c83c17$9f6d3d70$6501a8c0@Inspiron><F2C39786-D028-4769-BFA7-4B2260826414@pininteractive.com>
	<836db6300712141546kdde4789q18d76704df1261f2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004201c83f20$3023b910$6402a8c0@Delletje>

Hi,

Well written, Eelke!

*quote*
1) some of the requirements assume absolute validity but are actually only 
applicable in very specific contexts; take the "provide audio cues to visual 
information". A requirement as such does not make any game accessible to the 
blind automatically.
2) There are too many (requirements);
3) Another thing that I think is lacking with guidelines is that is does not 
specify what problem it actually solves, why it works or how it can be 
implemented.
*quote end*

I fully agree. This is why I have been so stubborn with accepting the 
requirements/guidelines defined so far. There simply is no link with the 
actual practical implementation. I also propose to drop the term 
'guidelines' - which is too fixed in my opinion ;). Patterns are that link 
to the practical, but I do think that patterns are only part of the 
solution. At the moment (but this may change in the future) I believe a 
healthy mix of heuristics and patterns is key. The patterns are (now), as 
you say, of a somewhat lower level than the high level game design and 
target software engineers. But I think it is important to target all 
disciplines within game development. Throughout the development of a game, 
decisions are made and it is important that for every decision that is made, 
accessibility is taken into account. So this includes targeting the high 
level designers (which would be targeted with "accessible game design 
patterns"), but also lower level designers (like the interface designers 
("accessible game interface design patterns") and the audio designers 
("accessible audio design patterns") - which would probably overlap ;) ). 
And even up the the marketing department ;) . I think that it is possible 
that a game designer creates a concept for a game that is very accessible 
because of using accessible game design patterns, and that other designers 
do not need patterns because of this. A game idea that revolves around the 
speech of the gamer, for instance, makes it very accessible for all sorts of 
gamers, because there simply is no physical or gestural input needed. Of 
course, there will always be the problem of what is accessible for one is 
inaccessible for the other ;)
If this is possible with patterns, than I'm all for it. I do not have that 
much experience with patterns so far, but from what I know I get the feeling 
there are limitations/obstacles with patterns. One is that I foresee that 
there can be as many design patterns for game accessibility as there are 
usability design heuristics and that number would grow as time progresses. 
That may not be practical. I also think that not all problems can be 
captured in patterns - or at least that it is very hard. The higher level 
you go with defining patterns, the less simple it gets. I think that a big 
part of game accessibility revolves around 1) input and output interface 
problems and 2) game difficulty problems. But there is still that one other 
part which is so hard to grab and that is the issue of trying to keep the 
game essence in tact and keeping the game fun for all while implementing 
different accessibility features. This requires, I think, the highest level 
of heuristics or patterns or... .

A concept I was recently introduced with and I think that may apply to this 
all is the concept of Strategy. There's this hierarchy of (Design) Goal, 
(Design) Objective, (Design) Strategy, (Design) Tactic and (Design) Task. 
One has a certain Goal (for instance "make all games accessible 
(controllable, perceivable and fun) for all players"), which is broken down 
in a certain Objective ("make Bejeweled accessible for color-blind gamers"). 
The Strategy is the Plan to achieve this Objective, which is broken down in 
conceptual actions called Tactics. So a Strategy is a collection of Tactics 
in a given context, the Objective. A Tactic is implemented as one or more 
Tasks.
While the theory of heuristics and patterns and guidelines is not so easily 
transferred to this hierarchy, you might say that a Pattern captures the 
Tactics and the Tasks. Heuristics would to, but not on a practical level? 
However, Strategy is where one designs which route to take, which 
Patterns/Heuristics to implement. This is decision making to and I think it 
is important to define strategies too. For example, the problem for colour 
blind gamers with information that is communicated with colour 
communication, can be solved with either alternative colour/contrast schemes 
or alternative parallel information communication, such as distinctive 
shapes. These would be 2 patterns. A design strategy would describe the 
problem and describe the two patterns (tactics), but also discuss which 
pattern is best in which context. I guess you could capture a strategy into 
a pattern too (since, how I've understood it, you simply make up your own 
pattern language to include strategy information). I consider strategy to be 
a path which links objectives to implementation - and I think it is 
important to define these too.

K... I wrote this very quickly and gotta go now so sorry for any vague lines 
in there, but I'm interested to hear what you think of this and if this may 
lead to something better or if you think this just makes it more difficult.

Greets,

Richard








From barrie.ellis at oneswitch.org.uk  Sat Dec 15 11:44:34 2007
From: barrie.ellis at oneswitch.org.uk (Barrie Ellis)
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2007 16:44:34 -0000
Subject: [games_access] GAIM 0.02 updated
Message-ID: <062201c83f39$c6c3b6e0$0202a8c0@oneswitch>

Richard, you are fast in danger of disappearing up your own arse! ;)

Come on - let's not turn Game Accessibility into some impenetrable academic
science. Let's chip away at the things that are simple - then go on from
there.

You've lots to offer - but you seem to me to be getting yourself tangled up 
in unnecessary knots.

Barrie

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "AudioGames.net" <richard at audiogames.net>
To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2007 1:41 PM
Subject: Re: [games_access] GAIM 0.02 updated


> Hi,
>
> Well written, Eelke!
>
> *quote*
> 1) some of the requirements assume absolute validity but are actually only 
> applicable in very specific contexts; take the "provide audio cues to 
> visual information". A requirement as such does not make any game 
> accessible to the blind automatically.
> 2) There are too many (requirements);
> 3) Another thing that I think is lacking with guidelines is that is does 
> not specify what problem it actually solves, why it works or how it can be 
> implemented.
> *quote end*
>
> I fully agree. This is why I have been so stubborn with accepting the 
> requirements/guidelines defined so far. There simply is no link with the 
> actual practical implementation. I also propose to drop the term 
> 'guidelines' - which is too fixed in my opinion ;). Patterns are that link 
> to the practical, but I do think that patterns are only part of the 
> solution. At the moment (but this may change in the future) I believe a 
> healthy mix of heuristics and patterns is key. The patterns are (now), as 
> you say, of a somewhat lower level than the high level game design and 
> target software engineers. But I think it is important to target all 
> disciplines within game development. Throughout the development of a game, 
> decisions are made and it is important that for every decision that is 
> made, accessibility is taken into account. So this includes targeting the 
> high level designers (which would be targeted with "accessible game design 
> patterns"), but also lower level designers (like the interface designers 
> ("accessible game interface design patterns") and the audio designers 
> ("accessible audio design patterns") - which would probably overlap ;) ). 
> And even up the the marketing department ;) . I think that it is possible 
> that a game designer creates a concept for a game that is very accessible 
> because of using accessible game design patterns, and that other designers 
> do not need patterns because of this. A game idea that revolves around the 
> speech of the gamer, for instance, makes it very accessible for all sorts 
> of gamers, because there simply is no physical or gestural input needed. 
> Of course, there will always be the problem of what is accessible for one 
> is inaccessible for the other ;)
> If this is possible with patterns, than I'm all for it. I do not have that 
> much experience with patterns so far, but from what I know I get the 
> feeling there are limitations/obstacles with patterns. One is that I 
> foresee that there can be as many design patterns for game accessibility 
> as there are usability design heuristics and that number would grow as 
> time progresses. That may not be practical. I also think that not all 
> problems can be captured in patterns - or at least that it is very hard. 
> The higher level you go with defining patterns, the less simple it gets. I 
> think that a big part of game accessibility revolves around 1) input and 
> output interface problems and 2) game difficulty problems. But there is 
> still that one other part which is so hard to grab and that is the issue 
> of trying to keep the game essence in tact and keeping the game fun for 
> all while implementing different accessibility features. This requires, I 
> think, the highest level of heuristics or patterns or... .
>
> A concept I was recently introduced with and I think that may apply to 
> this all is the concept of Strategy. There's this hierarchy of (Design) 
> Goal, (Design) Objective, (Design) Strategy, (Design) Tactic and (Design) 
> Task. One has a certain Goal (for instance "make all games accessible 
> (controllable, perceivable and fun) for all players"), which is broken 
> down in a certain Objective ("make Bejeweled accessible for color-blind 
> gamers"). The Strategy is the Plan to achieve this Objective, which is 
> broken down in conceptual actions called Tactics. So a Strategy is a 
> collection of Tactics in a given context, the Objective. A Tactic is 
> implemented as one or more Tasks.
> While the theory of heuristics and patterns and guidelines is not so 
> easily transferred to this hierarchy, you might say that a Pattern 
> captures the Tactics and the Tasks. Heuristics would to, but not on a 
> practical level? However, Strategy is where one designs which route to 
> take, which Patterns/Heuristics to implement. This is decision making to 
> and I think it is important to define strategies too. For example, the 
> problem for colour blind gamers with information that is communicated with 
> colour communication, can be solved with either alternative 
> colour/contrast schemes or alternative parallel information communication, 
> such as distinctive shapes. These would be 2 patterns. A design strategy 
> would describe the problem and describe the two patterns (tactics), but 
> also discuss which pattern is best in which context. I guess you could 
> capture a strategy into a pattern too (since, how I've understood it, you 
> simply make up your own pattern language to include strategy information). 
> I consider strategy to be a path which links objectives to 
> implementation - and I think it is important to define these too.
>
> K... I wrote this very quickly and gotta go now so sorry for any vague 
> lines in there, but I'm interested to hear what you think of this and if 
> this may lead to something better or if you think this just makes it more 
> difficult.
>
> Greets,
>
> Richard
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access





From richard at audiogames.net  Sat Dec 15 15:31:16 2007
From: richard at audiogames.net (AudioGames.net)
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2007 21:31:16 +0100
Subject: [games_access] GAIM 0.02 updated
References: <062201c83f39$c6c3b6e0$0202a8c0@oneswitch>
Message-ID: <001e01c83f59$71bdc300$6402a8c0@Delletje>

To me (and I guess to several of the others here) these sort of things are simple. Ok, I asked you guys if you thought this was making things too difficult and you were honest so I respect your answer (except the Arse-bit which was "not amusing" (winkwink) but I forgive you because you remind me somehow of Terry Pratchett who unfortunately, I recently learned, has Alzheimer's). 
But I do absolutely not agree with merely "chipping away at the things that are simple". We are PAST that point already. Yes, we could stick to lingo such as "add sound cues for visual information" and "make games controllable with 1 button" but it simply doesn't work that way. That sort of thinking does not make games more accessible and it is (clearly) not what the industry needs. Game accessibility is a complex thing and let's deal with it as such. I too prefer to keep things simple and I do not want to make something difficult out of something simple (hence my upcoming interactive animation@ http://www2.hku.nl/~mosh/ga/gameaccfield135.jpg ). But game accessibility is complex. Complex, by the way, is not the same as difficult or not easy. It meant that there are simply a lot of facets or parts to it. And these parts of game accessibility should be taken into consideration when discussing it with and to designers. So I don't think we are in a knot here - at all. We're simply discussing formats of how this complex subject (with all its facets) can best be described (in the easiest and most worthwhile format) to the target group of designers and system engineers and others in order to make games more accessible. For this I think it is very viable to discuss options that are out there and not simply choose one. I believe that 10 years of W3C has proven that the format of guidelines is not practical. Eelke's patterns are a really good format of describing practical applications of game accessibility solutions, but I have simply the hunch that patterns alone are not sufficient. 

Do you really think this is "impenetrable academic science"??! Let's turn it around, then. Barrie, your turn:

How would you describe to The People in the Game Industry who are responsible for Games, how to make their games TRUELY accessible - in a way that is practical and still covers game accessibility from A to Z?










----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Barrie Ellis" <barrie.ellis at oneswitch.org.uk>
To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2007 5:44 PM
Subject: Re: [games_access] GAIM 0.02 updated


> Richard, you are fast in danger of disappearing up your own arse! ;)
> 
> Come on - let's not turn Game Accessibility into some impenetrable academic
> science. Let's chip away at the things that are simple - then go on from
> there.
> 
> You've lots to offer - but you seem to me to be getting yourself tangled up 
> in unnecessary knots.
> 
> Barrie
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "AudioGames.net" <richard at audiogames.net>
> To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
> Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2007 1:41 PM
> Subject: Re: [games_access] GAIM 0.02 updated
> 
> 
>> Hi,
>>
>> Well written, Eelke!
>>
>> *quote*
>> 1) some of the requirements assume absolute validity but are actually only 
>> applicable in very specific contexts; take the "provide audio cues to 
>> visual information". A requirement as such does not make any game 
>> accessible to the blind automatically.
>> 2) There are too many (requirements);
>> 3) Another thing that I think is lacking with guidelines is that is does 
>> not specify what problem it actually solves, why it works or how it can be 
>> implemented.
>> *quote end*
>>
>> I fully agree. This is why I have been so stubborn with accepting the 
>> requirements/guidelines defined so far. There simply is no link with the 
>> actual practical implementation. I also propose to drop the term 
>> 'guidelines' - which is too fixed in my opinion ;). Patterns are that link 
>> to the practical, but I do think that patterns are only part of the 
>> solution. At the moment (but this may change in the future) I believe a 
>> healthy mix of heuristics and patterns is key. The patterns are (now), as 
>> you say, of a somewhat lower level than the high level game design and 
>> target software engineers. But I think it is important to target all 
>> disciplines within game development. Throughout the development of a game, 
>> decisions are made and it is important that for every decision that is 
>> made, accessibility is taken into account. So this includes targeting the 
>> high level designers (which would be targeted with "accessible game design 
>> patterns"), but also lower level designers (like the interface designers 
>> ("accessible game interface design patterns") and the audio designers 
>> ("accessible audio design patterns") - which would probably overlap ;) ). 
>> And even up the the marketing department ;) . I think that it is possible 
>> that a game designer creates a concept for a game that is very accessible 
>> because of using accessible game design patterns, and that other designers 
>> do not need patterns because of this. A game idea that revolves around the 
>> speech of the gamer, for instance, makes it very accessible for all sorts 
>> of gamers, because there simply is no physical or gestural input needed. 
>> Of course, there will always be the problem of what is accessible for one 
>> is inaccessible for the other ;)
>> If this is possible with patterns, than I'm all for it. I do not have that 
>> much experience with patterns so far, but from what I know I get the 
>> feeling there are limitations/obstacles with patterns. One is that I 
>> foresee that there can be as many design patterns for game accessibility 
>> as there are usability design heuristics and that number would grow as 
>> time progresses. That may not be practical. I also think that not all 
>> problems can be captured in patterns - or at least that it is very hard. 
>> The higher level you go with defining patterns, the less simple it gets. I 
>> think that a big part of game accessibility revolves around 1) input and 
>> output interface problems and 2) game difficulty problems. But there is 
>> still that one other part which is so hard to grab and that is the issue 
>> of trying to keep the game essence in tact and keeping the game fun for 
>> all while implementing different accessibility features. This requires, I 
>> think, the highest level of heuristics or patterns or... .
>>
>> A concept I was recently introduced with and I think that may apply to 
>> this all is the concept of Strategy. There's this hierarchy of (Design) 
>> Goal, (Design) Objective, (Design) Strategy, (Design) Tactic and (Design) 
>> Task. One has a certain Goal (for instance "make all games accessible 
>> (controllable, perceivable and fun) for all players"), which is broken 
>> down in a certain Objective ("make Bejeweled accessible for color-blind 
>> gamers"). The Strategy is the Plan to achieve this Objective, which is 
>> broken down in conceptual actions called Tactics. So a Strategy is a 
>> collection of Tactics in a given context, the Objective. A Tactic is 
>> implemented as one or more Tasks.
>> While the theory of heuristics and patterns and guidelines is not so 
>> easily transferred to this hierarchy, you might say that a Pattern 
>> captures the Tactics and the Tasks. Heuristics would to, but not on a 
>> practical level? However, Strategy is where one designs which route to 
>> take, which Patterns/Heuristics to implement. This is decision making to 
>> and I think it is important to define strategies too. For example, the 
>> problem for colour blind gamers with information that is communicated with 
>> colour communication, can be solved with either alternative 
>> colour/contrast schemes or alternative parallel information communication, 
>> such as distinctive shapes. These would be 2 patterns. A design strategy 
>> would describe the problem and describe the two patterns (tactics), but 
>> also discuss which pattern is best in which context. I guess you could 
>> capture a strategy into a pattern too (since, how I've understood it, you 
>> simply make up your own pattern language to include strategy information). 
>> I consider strategy to be a path which links objectives to 
>> implementation - and I think it is important to define these too.
>>
>> K... I wrote this very quickly and gotta go now so sorry for any vague 
>> lines in there, but I'm interested to hear what you think of this and if 
>> this may lead to something better or if you think this just makes it more 
>> difficult.
>>
>> Greets,
>>
>> Richard
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> games_access mailing list
>> games_access at igda.org
>> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
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From hinn at uiuc.edu  Sat Dec 15 18:30:45 2007
From: hinn at uiuc.edu (d. michelle hinn)
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2007 17:30:45 -0600
Subject: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!
Message-ID: <p0623091ac389ed7eef67@[130.126.29.12]>

Hey everyone,

So I've been talking to the CEO of Harmonix about Accessibility and 
"Rock Band." If you haven't yet seen it (ie, you were definitely not 
at a booth right across from them at E for All!) -- Harmonix was also 
behind Guitar Hero 1, 2, and 80s but then they spun that off to focus 
on Rock Band (which works with up to two guitars, a drum kit, and a 
mic). Right now it's available (USB wired) for Xbox 360, (wireless -- 
I think...) for PS3, and then (wired again) for PS2 (they have a USB 
hub that plugs into the USB slot to allow for 4 separate USB devices).

Here's the situation from Alex:

"One obvious thing that has already become apparent in the forums is 
that there's a demand among
paraplegic gamers for a mode of the drumming game in Rock Band that 
doesn't require the kick pedal."

I was thinking about hardware solutions that might work, that perhaps 
a set of drumsticks that has some kind of squeeze mechanism might 
work but that might be tough to pull off while you are drumming. 
Having the foot pedal in as a hat sensor would be difficult for those 
who want to "ROCK!" (hehe...head banging). The thing is that there 
are times when you have to hit the drum pads with both sticks and the 
foot pedal all at the same time...so simply not using the pedal is 
not an option if you want to progress through the game.

One thing for sure is the drums? It's the toughest thing on Rock Band 
-- I brought it to a party last night and we had three people playing 
as "the drummer" at the same time in order to avoid our "band" from 
getting kicked off stage again and again -- even then the point 
difference between the guitar and vocal versus the drums...guitar and 
vocal were in the 80s and 90s/100 on "easy" and drums got to about as 
high as 60/100 also on "easy." And this was from people who had never 
played Sing Star or Guitar Hero on the other instruments. So there's 
some balance issues that are coupled along with it.

So I'm thinking that a mode that didn't involve the kick pedal might 
be more attractive in general...perhaps as some sort of patch (harder 
with consoles if you don't have it hooked up to the net but they 
might be willing to send out a patch on a game disk for free or the 
cost of shipping and handling). Or it might just be a "for the next 
version" kind of thing.

But can anything be done NOW with regard to a hardware alternative 
for this version of Rock Band that has just come out? If there is a 
software solution, what would we need access to in order to implement 
something?

Thoughts? We have their attention! We might be able to really 
influence this game. Certainly I'll make Alex aware of Eelke's design 
solution for Guitar Hero for the visually impaired. But this is a 
rare direct opportunity for us to work with a major game company on 
current and future versions of this so we can get an inside look at 
what it takes to implement any one solution in a company. If it works 
out, this gives us some "street cred" as a group and be able to talk 
about the process at, say, next year's GDC with them.

Hey, it could happen -- this is the CEO we're talking to!

Michelle


From arthit73 at cablespeed.com  Sat Dec 15 18:30:26 2007
From: arthit73 at cablespeed.com (Robert Florio)
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2007 18:30:26 -0500
Subject: [games_access] article in escapist magazine
In-Reply-To: AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIykqywA
References: <836db6300712111653m12921df4j39ee9f0c9cf4d97@mail.gmail.com><a6673b8d0712111656w2578ad13xa9ffb287c30d1646@mail.gmail.com><a6673b8d0712111713tc0d3df3ta8dead525648bcb7@mail.gmail.com><6.1.0.6.2.20071212164849.01debc58@enigami.com>
	AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIykqywA
Message-ID: <000201c83f72$793d9600$6601a8c0@Inspiron>

That's really interesting.  I don't understand it completely is it just now
a number to the TV company?

Robert

-----Original Message-----
From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
On Behalf Of Barrie Ellis
Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2007 5:20 PM
To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
Subject: Re: [games_access] article in escapist magazine

In the UK, pre-digital TV, we had (and still have) a service where you could
turn text "subtitles" on by dialling 888 on your remote. These "subtitles"
included description of music, sound effects, and would be coloured to
denote different characters speaking. As we understand it now, these are
closed-captions - but most people don't know the difference. I didn't until
I came across Reid.

Barrie

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John Bannick" <jbannick at 7128.com>
To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2007 9:49 PM
Subject: Re: [games_access] article in escapist magazine


> Reid,
>
> Thanks for this.
> I was just about to ask what Open vs. Closed captions were.
>
> John Bannick
>
> At 08:13 PM 12/11/2007, you wrote:
>>Oh, someone else wrote the escapist article, very cool.
>>
>>Unfortunately, GTA: San Andreas is not captioned as the author states.
>>What she's talking about is subtitles.
>>
>>- Subtitles = dialog
>>- Captions = dialog + sound effects and music
>>- Open Captions = equal captions that are burned into the video signal
>>and can't be turned off
>>- Closed captions = equal captions that are encoded into the video or
>>game data and can be turned on or off at will
>>
>>-Reid
>>
>>On Dec 11, 2007 4:56 PM, Reid Kimball <reid at rbkdesign.com> wrote:
>> > You're also in the latest Game Developer mag. Nice job!
>> >
>> >
>> > On Dec 11, 2007 4:53 PM, Eelke Folmer <eelke.folmer at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >
>>
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/issues/issue_127/2708-Gaming-A
bility
>> > >
>> > > --
>> > >
>>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > > Eelke Folmer                           Assistant Professor
>> > > Department of CS&E/171
>> > > University of Nevada              Reno, Nevada 89557
>> > > Game interaction design        www.helpyouplay.com
>> > >
>>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > games_access mailing list
>> > > games_access at igda.org
>> > > http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>> > >
>> >
>>_______________________________________________
>>games_access mailing list
>>games_access at igda.org
>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>
>>
>>--
>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.17.1/1182 - Release Date: 
>>12/12/2007 11:29 AM
>
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access



_______________________________________________
games_access mailing list
games_access at igda.org
http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access



From richard at audiogames.net  Sat Dec 15 19:30:42 2007
From: richard at audiogames.net (AudioGames.net)
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 01:30:42 +0100
Subject: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!
References: <p0623091ac389ed7eef67@[130.126.29.12]>
Message-ID: <008e01c83f7a$e50773d0$6402a8c0@Delletje>

Great question!

First thing to jump to mind is to do something with the gamer's mouth/vocal 
options because it's free and available. Two ideas would then be either some 
very simple bite/sip/puff controller or a very simple head mic-setup (of 
course you need to be careful in a room full of sound with placing mics). A 
sip/puff/bite controller has the issue of hygiene which can be a pretty big 
problem. If so, go for the mic (which is simple hardware as well). The only 
thing you need from either the mic or the sip/puff/bite controller is a 
trigger of some sort. A player would then use his arms for the standard 
hi-hat/snare/toms/riot/crashes/cowbell-stuff, and "sing" the kick: 
"boom"+hihat > hihat > hihat+snare > "boomboom"+hihat > etc. A benefit of 
this solution is that I think it can actually add to the fun of the game. 
The drummers in the bands I used to play in were always the types of guys 
who would always mimic what they were playing with their voice: 
"boom-tjak-ka-boomboom-tjakcrash"- that sort of thing (especially in the bar 
after practice ;).  Also, when synced with samples of a kick-drum, gamers 
might be awed, thinking it is really cool to "boom" in a mic and hear a 
kickdrum from the machine ;) It might even turned out to make the game a bit 
easier... ? Alex, is there is a lot of double kickdrum in there?

Greets,

Richard













----- Original Message ----- 
From: "d. michelle hinn" <hinn at uiuc.edu>
To: <games_access at igda.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 12:30 AM
Subject: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!


> Hey everyone,
>
> So I've been talking to the CEO of Harmonix about Accessibility and "Rock 
> Band." If you haven't yet seen it (ie, you were definitely not at a booth 
> right across from them at E for All!) -- Harmonix was also behind Guitar 
> Hero 1, 2, and 80s but then they spun that off to focus on Rock Band 
> (which works with up to two guitars, a drum kit, and a mic). Right now 
> it's available (USB wired) for Xbox 360, (wireless -- 
> I think...) for PS3, and then (wired again) for PS2 (they have a USB hub 
> that plugs into the USB slot to allow for 4 separate USB devices).
>
> Here's the situation from Alex:
>
> "One obvious thing that has already become apparent in the forums is that 
> there's a demand among
> paraplegic gamers for a mode of the drumming game in Rock Band that 
> doesn't require the kick pedal."
>
> I was thinking about hardware solutions that might work, that perhaps a 
> set of drumsticks that has some kind of squeeze mechanism might work but 
> that might be tough to pull off while you are drumming. Having the foot 
> pedal in as a hat sensor would be difficult for those who want to "ROCK!" 
> (hehe...head banging). The thing is that there are times when you have to 
> hit the drum pads with both sticks and the foot pedal all at the same 
> time...so simply not using the pedal is not an option if you want to 
> progress through the game.
>
> One thing for sure is the drums? It's the toughest thing on Rock Band -- I 
> brought it to a party last night and we had three people playing as "the 
> drummer" at the same time in order to avoid our "band" from getting kicked 
> off stage again and again -- even then the point difference between the 
> guitar and vocal versus the drums...guitar and vocal were in the 80s and 
> 90s/100 on "easy" and drums got to about as high as 60/100 also on "easy." 
> And this was from people who had never played Sing Star or Guitar Hero on 
> the other instruments. So there's some balance issues that are coupled 
> along with it.
>
> So I'm thinking that a mode that didn't involve the kick pedal might be 
> more attractive in general...perhaps as some sort of patch (harder with 
> consoles if you don't have it hooked up to the net but they might be 
> willing to send out a patch on a game disk for free or the cost of 
> shipping and handling). Or it might just be a "for the next version" kind 
> of thing.
>
> But can anything be done NOW with regard to a hardware alternative for 
> this version of Rock Band that has just come out? If there is a software 
> solution, what would we need access to in order to implement something?
>
> Thoughts? We have their attention! We might be able to really influence 
> this game. Certainly I'll make Alex aware of Eelke's design solution for 
> Guitar Hero for the visually impaired. But this is a rare direct 
> opportunity for us to work with a major game company on current and future 
> versions of this so we can get an inside look at what it takes to 
> implement any one solution in a company. If it works out, this gives us 
> some "street cred" as a group and be able to talk about the process at, 
> say, next year's GDC with them.
>
> Hey, it could happen -- this is the CEO we're talking to!
>
> Michelle
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access 



From richard at audiogames.net  Sat Dec 15 19:45:59 2007
From: richard at audiogames.net (AudioGames.net)
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 01:45:59 +0100
Subject: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!
References: <p0623091ac389ed7eef67@[130.126.29.12]>
Message-ID: <00e601c83f7d$06a026c0$6402a8c0@Delletje>

Great question!

First thing to jump to mind is to do something with the gamer's mouth/vocal 
options because it's free and available. Two ideas would then be either some 
very simple bite/sip/puff controller or a very simple head mic-setup (of 
course you need to be careful in a room full of sound with placing mics). A 
sip/puff/bite controller has the issue of hygiene which can be a pretty big 
problem. If so, go for the mic (which is simple hardware as well). The only 
thing you need from either the mic or the sip/puff/bite controller is a 
trigger of some sort. A player would then use his arms for the standard 
hi-hat/snare/toms/riot/crashes/cowbell-stuff, and "sing" the kick: 
"boom"+hihat > hihat > hihat+snare > "boomboom"+hihat > etc. A benefit of 
this solution is that I think it can actually add to the fun of the game. 
The drummers in the bands I used to play in were always the types of guys 
who would always mimic what they were playing with their voice: 
"boom-tjak-ka-boomboom-tjakcrash"- that sort of thing (especially in the bar 
after practice ;).  Also, when synced with samples of a kick-drum, gamers 
might be awed, thinking it is really cool to "boom" in a mic and hear a 
kickdrum from the machine ;) It might even turned out to make the game a bit 
easier... ? Alex, is there is a lot of double kickdrum in there?

Greets,

Richard



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "d. michelle hinn" <hinn at uiuc.edu>
To: <games_access at igda.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 12:30 AM
Subject: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!


> Hey everyone,
>
> So I've been talking to the CEO of Harmonix about Accessibility and "Rock 
> Band." If you haven't yet seen it (ie, you were definitely not at a booth 
> right across from them at E for All!) -- Harmonix was also behind Guitar 
> Hero 1, 2, and 80s but then they spun that off to focus on Rock Band 
> (which works with up to two guitars, a drum kit, and a mic). Right now 
> it's available (USB wired) for Xbox 360, (wireless -- 
> I think...) for PS3, and then (wired again) for PS2 (they have a USB hub 
> that plugs into the USB slot to allow for 4 separate USB devices).
>
> Here's the situation from Alex:
>
> "One obvious thing that has already become apparent in the forums is that 
> there's a demand among
> paraplegic gamers for a mode of the drumming game in Rock Band that 
> doesn't require the kick pedal."
>
> I was thinking about hardware solutions that might work, that perhaps a 
> set of drumsticks that has some kind of squeeze mechanism might work but 
> that might be tough to pull off while you are drumming. Having the foot 
> pedal in as a hat sensor would be difficult for those who want to "ROCK!" 
> (hehe...head banging). The thing is that there are times when you have to 
> hit the drum pads with both sticks and the foot pedal all at the same 
> time...so simply not using the pedal is not an option if you want to 
> progress through the game.
>
> One thing for sure is the drums? It's the toughest thing on Rock Band -- I 
> brought it to a party last night and we had three people playing as "the 
> drummer" at the same time in order to avoid our "band" from getting kicked 
> off stage again and again -- even then the point difference between the 
> guitar and vocal versus the drums...guitar and vocal were in the 80s and 
> 90s/100 on "easy" and drums got to about as high as 60/100 also on "easy." 
> And this was from people who had never played Sing Star or Guitar Hero on 
> the other instruments. So there's some balance issues that are coupled 
> along with it.
>
> So I'm thinking that a mode that didn't involve the kick pedal might be 
> more attractive in general...perhaps as some sort of patch (harder with 
> consoles if you don't have it hooked up to the net but they might be 
> willing to send out a patch on a game disk for free or the cost of 
> shipping and handling). Or it might just be a "for the next version" kind 
> of thing.
>
> But can anything be done NOW with regard to a hardware alternative for 
> this version of Rock Band that has just come out? If there is a software 
> solution, what would we need access to in order to implement something?
>
> Thoughts? We have their attention! We might be able to really influence 
> this game. Certainly I'll make Alex aware of Eelke's design solution for 
> Guitar Hero for the visually impaired. But this is a rare direct 
> opportunity for us to work with a major game company on current and future 
> versions of this so we can get an inside look at what it takes to 
> implement any one solution in a company. If it works out, this gives us 
> some "street cred" as a group and be able to talk about the process at, 
> say, next year's GDC with them.
>
> Hey, it could happen -- this is the CEO we're talking to!
>
> Michelle
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access 



From reid at rbkdesign.com  Sat Dec 15 21:25:37 2007
From: reid at rbkdesign.com (Reid Kimball)
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2007 18:25:37 -0800
Subject: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!
In-Reply-To: <00e601c83f7d$06a026c0$6402a8c0@Delletje>
References: <p0623091ac389ed7eef67@130.126.29.12>
	<00e601c83f7d$06a026c0$6402a8c0@Delletje>
Message-ID: <a6673b8d0712151825s21e44c28ue24f9c6d49082014@mail.gmail.com>

This is a difficult problem to solve. I think in the future a sip/puff
mechanism should be considered. Rock Band 2: On Tour or whatever it
will be called could ship with headset microphones for everyone, or
why couldn't players use their current gaming headsets? You wear it,
assuming it's snug enough to stay on with the head thrashing and blow
into it to use the kick pedal.

Other than that, I say give the players what they want, if they are
requesting that the kick stand action be automatic, best to do that in
a future patch.

I think people who are new to games and not technically disabled will
benefit from game modes that automate difficult actions, such as EA's
Family Play controls for their Wii sports games.

-Reid

On Dec 15, 2007 4:45 PM, AudioGames.net <richard at audiogames.net> wrote:
>
> Great question!
>
> First thing to jump to mind is to do something with the gamer's mouth/vocal
> options because it's free and available. Two ideas would then be either some
> very simple bite/sip/puff controller or a very simple head mic-setup (of
> course you need to be careful in a room full of sound with placing mics). A
> sip/puff/bite controller has the issue of hygiene which can be a pretty big
> problem. If so, go for the mic (which is simple hardware as well). The only
> thing you need from either the mic or the sip/puff/bite controller is a
> trigger of some sort. A player would then use his arms for the standard
> hi-hat/snare/toms/riot/crashes/cowbell-stuff, and "sing" the kick:
> "boom"+hihat > hihat > hihat+snare > "boomboom"+hihat > etc. A benefit of
> this solution is that I think it can actually add to the fun of the game.
> The drummers in the bands I used to play in were always the types of guys
> who would always mimic what they were playing with their voice:
> "boom-tjak-ka-boomboom-tjakcrash"- that sort of thing (especially in the bar
> after practice ;).  Also, when synced with samples of a kick-drum, gamers
> might be awed, thinking it is really cool to "boom" in a mic and hear a
> kickdrum from the machine ;) It might even turned out to make the game a bit
> easier... ? Alex, is there is a lot of double kickdrum in there?
>
> Greets,
>
> Richard
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "d. michelle hinn" <hinn at uiuc.edu>
> To: <games_access at igda.org>
> Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 12:30 AM
> Subject: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!
>
>
>
> > Hey everyone,
> >
> > So I've been talking to the CEO of Harmonix about Accessibility and "Rock
> > Band." If you haven't yet seen it (ie, you were definitely not at a booth
> > right across from them at E for All!) -- Harmonix was also behind Guitar
> > Hero 1, 2, and 80s but then they spun that off to focus on Rock Band
> > (which works with up to two guitars, a drum kit, and a mic). Right now
> > it's available (USB wired) for Xbox 360, (wireless --
> > I think...) for PS3, and then (wired again) for PS2 (they have a USB hub
> > that plugs into the USB slot to allow for 4 separate USB devices).
> >
> > Here's the situation from Alex:
> >
> > "One obvious thing that has already become apparent in the forums is that
> > there's a demand among
> > paraplegic gamers for a mode of the drumming game in Rock Band that
> > doesn't require the kick pedal."
> >
> > I was thinking about hardware solutions that might work, that perhaps a
> > set of drumsticks that has some kind of squeeze mechanism might work but
> > that might be tough to pull off while you are drumming. Having the foot
> > pedal in as a hat sensor would be difficult for those who want to "ROCK!"
> > (hehe...head banging). The thing is that there are times when you have to
> > hit the drum pads with both sticks and the foot pedal all at the same
> > time...so simply not using the pedal is not an option if you want to
> > progress through the game.
> >
> > One thing for sure is the drums? It's the toughest thing on Rock Band -- I
> > brought it to a party last night and we had three people playing as "the
> > drummer" at the same time in order to avoid our "band" from getting kicked
> > off stage again and again -- even then the point difference between the
> > guitar and vocal versus the drums...guitar and vocal were in the 80s and
> > 90s/100 on "easy" and drums got to about as high as 60/100 also on "easy."
> > And this was from people who had never played Sing Star or Guitar Hero on
> > the other instruments. So there's some balance issues that are coupled
> > along with it.
> >
> > So I'm thinking that a mode that didn't involve the kick pedal might be
> > more attractive in general...perhaps as some sort of patch (harder with
> > consoles if you don't have it hooked up to the net but they might be
> > willing to send out a patch on a game disk for free or the cost of
> > shipping and handling). Or it might just be a "for the next version" kind
> > of thing.
> >
> > But can anything be done NOW with regard to a hardware alternative for
> > this version of Rock Band that has just come out? If there is a software
> > solution, what would we need access to in order to implement something?
> >
> > Thoughts? We have their attention! We might be able to really influence
> > this game. Certainly I'll make Alex aware of Eelke's design solution for
> > Guitar Hero for the visually impaired. But this is a rare direct
> > opportunity for us to work with a major game company on current and future
> > versions of this so we can get an inside look at what it takes to
> > implement any one solution in a company. If it works out, this gives us
> > some "street cred" as a group and be able to talk about the process at,
> > say, next year's GDC with them.
> >
> > Hey, it could happen -- this is the CEO we're talking to!
> >
> > Michelle
> > _______________________________________________
> > games_access mailing list
> > games_access at igda.org
> > http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>


From arthit73 at cablespeed.com  Sat Dec 15 21:42:50 2007
From: arthit73 at cablespeed.com (Robert Florio)
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2007 21:42:50 -0500
Subject: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!
In-Reply-To: AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIyEwiwA
References: <p0623091ac389ed7eef67@[130.126.29.12]>
	AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIyEwiwA
Message-ID: <004401c83f8d$5f481fc0$6601a8c0@Inspiron>

Couldn't agree more.  Well, my experience as a quadriplegic is pretty
similar to the paraplegic.

Even though some paraplegic have decent amount of risk movement it varies
from one wrist to the other and some can even pinch their fingers slightly.

However, my recommendation would probably be for hardware, something that
does not get in the way being cumbersome to the need of using your hands to
keep the beat with two hands.

Like, some kind of shoulder position censure or even a vast strap that can
act as beating on the buttons on the strap on your chest.  It's much more
applicable than having to balance a device on your lap with limited reach.

Can you bring the issue up to quadriplegics also?  If they can extend their
vision a little bit more to quads, like myself, I have the ability to feed
on drums and my range with extension having no triceps, and very little
pictorial muscles to reach across, I still can't pound decently enough if I
have buttons evenly spaced not too large but within a eight or 9 inch
diameter space.  All the buttons in that area.

Things like, head movement or a device that can be strapped anywhere as an
external alternative to the footpad.

Is there a picture of this?  Of what this drum set actually looks like?

Because, if the footpad has a low enough extension and it's easy enough to
tap its possible that a paraplegic in a quadriplegic can actually strap this
device to the back of the shoulder or to the back of the headrest to tap
with their head.

Robert

-----Original Message-----
From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
On Behalf Of AudioGames.net
Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2007 7:31 PM
To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
Subject: Re: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!

Great question!

First thing to jump to mind is to do something with the gamer's mouth/vocal 
options because it's free and available. Two ideas would then be either some

very simple bite/sip/puff controller or a very simple head mic-setup (of 
course you need to be careful in a room full of sound with placing mics). A 
sip/puff/bite controller has the issue of hygiene which can be a pretty big 
problem. If so, go for the mic (which is simple hardware as well). The only 
thing you need from either the mic or the sip/puff/bite controller is a 
trigger of some sort. A player would then use his arms for the standard 
hi-hat/snare/toms/riot/crashes/cowbell-stuff, and "sing" the kick: 
"boom"+hihat > hihat > hihat+snare > "boomboom"+hihat > etc. A benefit of 
this solution is that I think it can actually add to the fun of the game. 
The drummers in the bands I used to play in were always the types of guys 
who would always mimic what they were playing with their voice: 
"boom-tjak-ka-boomboom-tjakcrash"- that sort of thing (especially in the bar

after practice ;).  Also, when synced with samples of a kick-drum, gamers 
might be awed, thinking it is really cool to "boom" in a mic and hear a 
kickdrum from the machine ;) It might even turned out to make the game a bit

easier... ? Alex, is there is a lot of double kickdrum in there?

Greets,

Richard













----- Original Message ----- 
From: "d. michelle hinn" <hinn at uiuc.edu>
To: <games_access at igda.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 12:30 AM
Subject: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!


> Hey everyone,
>
> So I've been talking to the CEO of Harmonix about Accessibility and "Rock 
> Band." If you haven't yet seen it (ie, you were definitely not at a booth 
> right across from them at E for All!) -- Harmonix was also behind Guitar 
> Hero 1, 2, and 80s but then they spun that off to focus on Rock Band 
> (which works with up to two guitars, a drum kit, and a mic). Right now 
> it's available (USB wired) for Xbox 360, (wireless -- 
> I think...) for PS3, and then (wired again) for PS2 (they have a USB hub 
> that plugs into the USB slot to allow for 4 separate USB devices).
>
> Here's the situation from Alex:
>
> "One obvious thing that has already become apparent in the forums is that 
> there's a demand among
> paraplegic gamers for a mode of the drumming game in Rock Band that 
> doesn't require the kick pedal."
>
> I was thinking about hardware solutions that might work, that perhaps a 
> set of drumsticks that has some kind of squeeze mechanism might work but 
> that might be tough to pull off while you are drumming. Having the foot 
> pedal in as a hat sensor would be difficult for those who want to "ROCK!" 
> (hehe...head banging). The thing is that there are times when you have to 
> hit the drum pads with both sticks and the foot pedal all at the same 
> time...so simply not using the pedal is not an option if you want to 
> progress through the game.
>
> One thing for sure is the drums? It's the toughest thing on Rock Band -- I

> brought it to a party last night and we had three people playing as "the 
> drummer" at the same time in order to avoid our "band" from getting kicked

> off stage again and again -- even then the point difference between the 
> guitar and vocal versus the drums...guitar and vocal were in the 80s and 
> 90s/100 on "easy" and drums got to about as high as 60/100 also on "easy."

> And this was from people who had never played Sing Star or Guitar Hero on 
> the other instruments. So there's some balance issues that are coupled 
> along with it.
>
> So I'm thinking that a mode that didn't involve the kick pedal might be 
> more attractive in general...perhaps as some sort of patch (harder with 
> consoles if you don't have it hooked up to the net but they might be 
> willing to send out a patch on a game disk for free or the cost of 
> shipping and handling). Or it might just be a "for the next version" kind 
> of thing.
>
> But can anything be done NOW with regard to a hardware alternative for 
> this version of Rock Band that has just come out? If there is a software 
> solution, what would we need access to in order to implement something?
>
> Thoughts? We have their attention! We might be able to really influence 
> this game. Certainly I'll make Alex aware of Eelke's design solution for 
> Guitar Hero for the visually impaired. But this is a rare direct 
> opportunity for us to work with a major game company on current and future

> versions of this so we can get an inside look at what it takes to 
> implement any one solution in a company. If it works out, this gives us 
> some "street cred" as a group and be able to talk about the process at, 
> say, next year's GDC with them.
>
> Hey, it could happen -- this is the CEO we're talking to!
>
> Michelle
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access 

_______________________________________________
games_access mailing list
games_access at igda.org
http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access



From arthit73 at cablespeed.com  Sat Dec 15 21:49:13 2007
From: arthit73 at cablespeed.com (Robert Florio)
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2007 21:49:13 -0500
Subject: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!
In-Reply-To: AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIykwiwA
References: <p0623091ac389ed7eef67@[130.126.29.12]>
	AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIykwiwA
Message-ID: <004501c83f8e$410658a0$6601a8c0@Inspiron>

Hi Richard.  From my experience though, for a game that potentially the
success in the most amount of enjoyment comes from loud music, personally as
a quad that much repetitive rhythmic beating with breathing is very
exhausting because with paralysis, even within paraplegic, the spinal cord
and the positioning of the body leaning forward in wheelchairs, is really
hard with my lungs.  And quads and more so quads, their lung capacity gets
diminished and exhausted very quick.

Also with the fight hygiene problem in the voice recognition, I think the
hygiene is a real problem.

And also recommend that using voice command even though it would be good for
a game that requires a lot of loud music it will be really frustrating
because it's really hard, from my experience for any program to learn how to
drown out the background music.  The only way to do that, is have a mic
setup so that when the voice comes out is almost directly up against the
lips but has a cover on the outside not allowing any balancing sounds to get
to the mouth.  Similar to as it someone cupped their hand over the
microphone the back side.

My dog is barking right now at the back door and even that is messing up
with the voice recognition for me typing here.  I'm in an absolutely quiet
room and, it wasn't her loudest bark but in a scale of one to 10 it was
probably in eight.  And she was about 30 feet away.  Also, the microphone is
on the opposite side of my face, she has to my left and the microphone is on
my right.

I think with any device for this game is going to come down to simple as
that.  If the court is long enough for the footpad my recommendation would
be, have it strapped someplace close to a head rests for a quad or somewhere
that a paraplegic and hit it with their shoulder or the side of their head
or something.

Robert

-----Original Message-----
From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
On Behalf Of AudioGames.net
Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2007 7:46 PM
To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
Subject: Re: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!

Great question!

First thing to jump to mind is to do something with the gamer's mouth/vocal 
options because it's free and available. Two ideas would then be either some

very simple bite/sip/puff controller or a very simple head mic-setup (of 
course you need to be careful in a room full of sound with placing mics). A 
sip/puff/bite controller has the issue of hygiene which can be a pretty big 
problem. If so, go for the mic (which is simple hardware as well). The only 
thing you need from either the mic or the sip/puff/bite controller is a 
trigger of some sort. A player would then use his arms for the standard 
hi-hat/snare/toms/riot/crashes/cowbell-stuff, and "sing" the kick: 
"boom"+hihat > hihat > hihat+snare > "boomboom"+hihat > etc. A benefit of 
this solution is that I think it can actually add to the fun of the game. 
The drummers in the bands I used to play in were always the types of guys 
who would always mimic what they were playing with their voice: 
"boom-tjak-ka-boomboom-tjakcrash"- that sort of thing (especially in the bar

after practice ;).  Also, when synced with samples of a kick-drum, gamers 
might be awed, thinking it is really cool to "boom" in a mic and hear a 
kickdrum from the machine ;) It might even turned out to make the game a bit

easier... ? Alex, is there is a lot of double kickdrum in there?

Greets,

Richard



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "d. michelle hinn" <hinn at uiuc.edu>
To: <games_access at igda.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 12:30 AM
Subject: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!


> Hey everyone,
>
> So I've been talking to the CEO of Harmonix about Accessibility and "Rock 
> Band." If you haven't yet seen it (ie, you were definitely not at a booth 
> right across from them at E for All!) -- Harmonix was also behind Guitar 
> Hero 1, 2, and 80s but then they spun that off to focus on Rock Band 
> (which works with up to two guitars, a drum kit, and a mic). Right now 
> it's available (USB wired) for Xbox 360, (wireless -- 
> I think...) for PS3, and then (wired again) for PS2 (they have a USB hub 
> that plugs into the USB slot to allow for 4 separate USB devices).
>
> Here's the situation from Alex:
>
> "One obvious thing that has already become apparent in the forums is that 
> there's a demand among
> paraplegic gamers for a mode of the drumming game in Rock Band that 
> doesn't require the kick pedal."
>
> I was thinking about hardware solutions that might work, that perhaps a 
> set of drumsticks that has some kind of squeeze mechanism might work but 
> that might be tough to pull off while you are drumming. Having the foot 
> pedal in as a hat sensor would be difficult for those who want to "ROCK!" 
> (hehe...head banging). The thing is that there are times when you have to 
> hit the drum pads with both sticks and the foot pedal all at the same 
> time...so simply not using the pedal is not an option if you want to 
> progress through the game.
>
> One thing for sure is the drums? It's the toughest thing on Rock Band -- I

> brought it to a party last night and we had three people playing as "the 
> drummer" at the same time in order to avoid our "band" from getting kicked

> off stage again and again -- even then the point difference between the 
> guitar and vocal versus the drums...guitar and vocal were in the 80s and 
> 90s/100 on "easy" and drums got to about as high as 60/100 also on "easy."

> And this was from people who had never played Sing Star or Guitar Hero on 
> the other instruments. So there's some balance issues that are coupled 
> along with it.
>
> So I'm thinking that a mode that didn't involve the kick pedal might be 
> more attractive in general...perhaps as some sort of patch (harder with 
> consoles if you don't have it hooked up to the net but they might be 
> willing to send out a patch on a game disk for free or the cost of 
> shipping and handling). Or it might just be a "for the next version" kind 
> of thing.
>
> But can anything be done NOW with regard to a hardware alternative for 
> this version of Rock Band that has just come out? If there is a software 
> solution, what would we need access to in order to implement something?
>
> Thoughts? We have their attention! We might be able to really influence 
> this game. Certainly I'll make Alex aware of Eelke's design solution for 
> Guitar Hero for the visually impaired. But this is a rare direct 
> opportunity for us to work with a major game company on current and future

> versions of this so we can get an inside look at what it takes to 
> implement any one solution in a company. If it works out, this gives us 
> some "street cred" as a group and be able to talk about the process at, 
> say, next year's GDC with them.
>
> Hey, it could happen -- this is the CEO we're talking to!
>
> Michelle
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access 

_______________________________________________
games_access mailing list
games_access at igda.org
http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access



From arthit73 at cablespeed.com  Sat Dec 15 21:52:55 2007
From: arthit73 at cablespeed.com (Robert Florio)
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2007 21:52:55 -0500
Subject: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!
In-Reply-To: AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIzEwiwA
References: <p0623091ac389ed7eef67@130.126.29.12><00e601c83f7d$06a026c0$6402a8c0@Delletje>
	AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIzEwiwA
Message-ID: <004601c83f8e$c3e01e50$6601a8c0@Inspiron>

That seems pretty simple.  The best thing to probably do is make the foot
paddle just be automatic definitely.  I don't think it would take away from
the fun I think I would actually make it easier and it wouldn't be kind of
cumbersome and awkward and clumsy for a paraplegic to try to keep a beat
when they have limited dexterity.

One thing to keep in mind about paralysis, the way the spinal cord is
affected is different for each patient.

If these are crosses from or paraplegics from some other kind of injury like
a stroke, I imagine stroke victims are different also.

What I mean is the level of function and dexterity is always different.  One
person might have really good wrist movement with their left hand and very
contrite that movement with their left arm but their right arm to try set
can be half the strength and their pictorial muscle on the right might be
weaker.  Which means, not try set on the right, little or weaker pictorial
muscle.

Which means, the left arm has much more range accuracy, dexterity, stamina,
the right arm will get exhausted just like a muscle when it exercises too
much.  Excellent therapy but disappointing when you're trying to keep up
with others.

Robert

-----Original Message-----
From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
On Behalf Of Reid Kimball
Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2007 9:26 PM
To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
Subject: Re: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!

This is a difficult problem to solve. I think in the future a sip/puff
mechanism should be considered. Rock Band 2: On Tour or whatever it
will be called could ship with headset microphones for everyone, or
why couldn't players use their current gaming headsets? You wear it,
assuming it's snug enough to stay on with the head thrashing and blow
into it to use the kick pedal.

Other than that, I say give the players what they want, if they are
requesting that the kick stand action be automatic, best to do that in
a future patch.

I think people who are new to games and not technically disabled will
benefit from game modes that automate difficult actions, such as EA's
Family Play controls for their Wii sports games.

-Reid

On Dec 15, 2007 4:45 PM, AudioGames.net <richard at audiogames.net> wrote:
>
> Great question!
>
> First thing to jump to mind is to do something with the gamer's
mouth/vocal
> options because it's free and available. Two ideas would then be either
some
> very simple bite/sip/puff controller or a very simple head mic-setup (of
> course you need to be careful in a room full of sound with placing mics).
A
> sip/puff/bite controller has the issue of hygiene which can be a pretty
big
> problem. If so, go for the mic (which is simple hardware as well). The
only
> thing you need from either the mic or the sip/puff/bite controller is a
> trigger of some sort. A player would then use his arms for the standard
> hi-hat/snare/toms/riot/crashes/cowbell-stuff, and "sing" the kick:
> "boom"+hihat > hihat > hihat+snare > "boomboom"+hihat > etc. A benefit of
> this solution is that I think it can actually add to the fun of the game.
> The drummers in the bands I used to play in were always the types of guys
> who would always mimic what they were playing with their voice:
> "boom-tjak-ka-boomboom-tjakcrash"- that sort of thing (especially in the
bar
> after practice ;).  Also, when synced with samples of a kick-drum, gamers
> might be awed, thinking it is really cool to "boom" in a mic and hear a
> kickdrum from the machine ;) It might even turned out to make the game a
bit
> easier... ? Alex, is there is a lot of double kickdrum in there?
>
> Greets,
>
> Richard
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "d. michelle hinn" <hinn at uiuc.edu>
> To: <games_access at igda.org>
> Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 12:30 AM
> Subject: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!
>
>
>
> > Hey everyone,
> >
> > So I've been talking to the CEO of Harmonix about Accessibility and
"Rock
> > Band." If you haven't yet seen it (ie, you were definitely not at a
booth
> > right across from them at E for All!) -- Harmonix was also behind Guitar
> > Hero 1, 2, and 80s but then they spun that off to focus on Rock Band
> > (which works with up to two guitars, a drum kit, and a mic). Right now
> > it's available (USB wired) for Xbox 360, (wireless --
> > I think...) for PS3, and then (wired again) for PS2 (they have a USB hub
> > that plugs into the USB slot to allow for 4 separate USB devices).
> >
> > Here's the situation from Alex:
> >
> > "One obvious thing that has already become apparent in the forums is
that
> > there's a demand among
> > paraplegic gamers for a mode of the drumming game in Rock Band that
> > doesn't require the kick pedal."
> >
> > I was thinking about hardware solutions that might work, that perhaps a
> > set of drumsticks that has some kind of squeeze mechanism might work but
> > that might be tough to pull off while you are drumming. Having the foot
> > pedal in as a hat sensor would be difficult for those who want to
"ROCK!"
> > (hehe...head banging). The thing is that there are times when you have
to
> > hit the drum pads with both sticks and the foot pedal all at the same
> > time...so simply not using the pedal is not an option if you want to
> > progress through the game.
> >
> > One thing for sure is the drums? It's the toughest thing on Rock Band --
I
> > brought it to a party last night and we had three people playing as "the
> > drummer" at the same time in order to avoid our "band" from getting
kicked
> > off stage again and again -- even then the point difference between the
> > guitar and vocal versus the drums...guitar and vocal were in the 80s and
> > 90s/100 on "easy" and drums got to about as high as 60/100 also on
"easy."
> > And this was from people who had never played Sing Star or Guitar Hero
on
> > the other instruments. So there's some balance issues that are coupled
> > along with it.
> >
> > So I'm thinking that a mode that didn't involve the kick pedal might be
> > more attractive in general...perhaps as some sort of patch (harder with
> > consoles if you don't have it hooked up to the net but they might be
> > willing to send out a patch on a game disk for free or the cost of
> > shipping and handling). Or it might just be a "for the next version"
kind
> > of thing.
> >
> > But can anything be done NOW with regard to a hardware alternative for
> > this version of Rock Band that has just come out? If there is a software
> > solution, what would we need access to in order to implement something?
> >
> > Thoughts? We have their attention! We might be able to really influence
> > this game. Certainly I'll make Alex aware of Eelke's design solution for
> > Guitar Hero for the visually impaired. But this is a rare direct
> > opportunity for us to work with a major game company on current and
future
> > versions of this so we can get an inside look at what it takes to
> > implement any one solution in a company. If it works out, this gives us
> > some "street cred" as a group and be able to talk about the process at,
> > say, next year's GDC with them.
> >
> > Hey, it could happen -- this is the CEO we're talking to!
> >
> > Michelle
> > _______________________________________________
> > games_access mailing list
> > games_access at igda.org
> > http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
_______________________________________________
games_access mailing list
games_access at igda.org
http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access



From hinn at uiuc.edu  Sat Dec 15 22:32:35 2007
From: hinn at uiuc.edu (d. michelle hinn)
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2007 21:32:35 -0600
Subject: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!
In-Reply-To: <004601c83f8e$c3e01e50$6601a8c0@Inspiron>
References: <p0623091ac389ed7eef67@130.126.29.12><00e601c83f7d$06a026c0$6402a8c0@Delle
	tje>	AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIzEwiwA
	<004601c83f8e$c3e01e50$6601a8c0@Inspiron>
Message-ID: <p0623091fc38a496c7b30@[130.126.29.12]>

You've raised a lot of great points, Robert, and I will write up an 
email that extends the issue for quadriplegics. Alex is a really cool 
guy and he's definitely a friend of the SIG. I'm sure that they won't 
be able to budget for everything but if they could help advertise a 
few solutions now that we can come up with (like the foot pedal 
against a head rest or get a switch button to work with the drum kit) 
and then implement (as Reid brought up) what the gamers are asking 
for in the next version (which I think was what he was already 
planning on since they know about the issue now) then we can put a 
dent in this issue at least for mobility disabilities. Alex was also 
interested in feedback about other types of disabilities too so any 
other ideas for other disabilities would be welcomed. He doesn't seem 
to fear the honesty!

One game at a time... :) Then we have examples that help show our 
direct contributions to AAA titles -- that gives us street cred.

Michelle


>That seems pretty simple.  The best thing to probably do is make the foot
>paddle just be automatic definitely.  I don't think it would take away from
>the fun I think I would actually make it easier and it wouldn't be kind of
>cumbersome and awkward and clumsy for a paraplegic to try to keep a beat
>when they have limited dexterity.
>
>One thing to keep in mind about paralysis, the way the spinal cord is
>affected is different for each patient.
>
>If these are crosses from or paraplegics from some other kind of injury like
>a stroke, I imagine stroke victims are different also.
>
>What I mean is the level of function and dexterity is always different.  One
>person might have really good wrist movement with their left hand and very
>contrite that movement with their left arm but their right arm to try set
>can be half the strength and their pictorial muscle on the right might be
>weaker.  Which means, not try set on the right, little or weaker pictorial
>muscle.
>
>Which means, the left arm has much more range accuracy, dexterity, stamina,
>the right arm will get exhausted just like a muscle when it exercises too
>much.  Excellent therapy but disappointing when you're trying to keep up
>with others.
>
>Robert
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
>On Behalf Of Reid Kimball
>Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2007 9:26 PM
>To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
>Subject: Re: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!
>
>This is a difficult problem to solve. I think in the future a sip/puff
>mechanism should be considered. Rock Band 2: On Tour or whatever it
>will be called could ship with headset microphones for everyone, or
>why couldn't players use their current gaming headsets? You wear it,
>assuming it's snug enough to stay on with the head thrashing and blow
>into it to use the kick pedal.
>
>Other than that, I say give the players what they want, if they are
>requesting that the kick stand action be automatic, best to do that in
>a future patch.
>
>I think people who are new to games and not technically disabled will
>benefit from game modes that automate difficult actions, such as EA's
>Family Play controls for their Wii sports games.
>
>-Reid
>
>On Dec 15, 2007 4:45 PM, AudioGames.net <richard at audiogames.net> wrote:
>>
>>  Great question!
>>
>>  First thing to jump to mind is to do something with the gamer's
>mouth/vocal
>>  options because it's free and available. Two ideas would then be either
>some
>>  very simple bite/sip/puff controller or a very simple head mic-setup (of
>>  course you need to be careful in a room full of sound with placing mics).
>A
>>  sip/puff/bite controller has the issue of hygiene which can be a pretty
>big
>>  problem. If so, go for the mic (which is simple hardware as well). The
>only
>>  thing you need from either the mic or the sip/puff/bite controller is a
>>  trigger of some sort. A player would then use his arms for the standard
>>  hi-hat/snare/toms/riot/crashes/cowbell-stuff, and "sing" the kick:
>  > "boom"+hihat > hihat > hihat+snare > "boomboom"+hihat > etc. A benefit of
>>  this solution is that I think it can actually add to the fun of the game.
>>  The drummers in the bands I used to play in were always the types of guys
>>  who would always mimic what they were playing with their voice:
>>  "boom-tjak-ka-boomboom-tjakcrash"- that sort of thing (especially in the
>bar
>>  after practice ;).  Also, when synced with samples of a kick-drum, gamers
>>  might be awed, thinking it is really cool to "boom" in a mic and hear a
>>  kickdrum from the machine ;) It might even turned out to make the game a
>bit
>>  easier... ? Alex, is there is a lot of double kickdrum in there?
>>
>>  Greets,
>>
>>  Richard
>>
>>
>>
>>  ----- Original Message -----
>>  From: "d. michelle hinn" <hinn at uiuc.edu>
>>  To: <games_access at igda.org>
>>  Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 12:30 AM
>>  Subject: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!
>>
>>
>>
>>  > Hey everyone,
>>  >
>>  > So I've been talking to the CEO of Harmonix about Accessibility and
>"Rock
>>  > Band." If you haven't yet seen it (ie, you were definitely not at a
>booth
>>  > right across from them at E for All!) -- Harmonix was also behind Guitar
>>  > Hero 1, 2, and 80s but then they spun that off to focus on Rock Band
>>  > (which works with up to two guitars, a drum kit, and a mic). Right now
>>  > it's available (USB wired) for Xbox 360, (wireless --
>>  > I think...) for PS3, and then (wired again) for PS2 (they have a USB hub
>>  > that plugs into the USB slot to allow for 4 separate USB devices).
>>  >
>>  > Here's the situation from Alex:
>>  >
>>  > "One obvious thing that has already become apparent in the forums is
>that
>>  > there's a demand among
>>  > paraplegic gamers for a mode of the drumming game in Rock Band that
>>  > doesn't require the kick pedal."
>>  >
>>  > I was thinking about hardware solutions that might work, that perhaps a
>>  > set of drumsticks that has some kind of squeeze mechanism might work but
>>  > that might be tough to pull off while you are drumming. Having the foot
>>  > pedal in as a hat sensor would be difficult for those who want to
>"ROCK!"
>>  > (hehe...head banging). The thing is that there are times when you have
>to
>>  > hit the drum pads with both sticks and the foot pedal all at the same
>>  > time...so simply not using the pedal is not an option if you want to
>>  > progress through the game.
>>  >
>>  > One thing for sure is the drums? It's the toughest thing on Rock Band --
>I
>>  > brought it to a party last night and we had three people playing as "the
>>  > drummer" at the same time in order to avoid our "band" from getting
>kicked
>>  > off stage again and again -- even then the point difference between the
>>  > guitar and vocal versus the drums...guitar and vocal were in the 80s and
>>  > 90s/100 on "easy" and drums got to about as high as 60/100 also on
>"easy."
>>  > And this was from people who had never played Sing Star or Guitar Hero
>on
>>  > the other instruments. So there's some balance issues that are coupled
>>  > along with it.
>>  >
>>  > So I'm thinking that a mode that didn't involve the kick pedal might be
>>  > more attractive in general...perhaps as some sort of patch (harder with
>>  > consoles if you don't have it hooked up to the net but they might be
>>  > willing to send out a patch on a game disk for free or the cost of
>>  > shipping and handling). Or it might just be a "for the next version"
>kind
>>  > of thing.
>>  >
>>  > But can anything be done NOW with regard to a hardware alternative for
>>  > this version of Rock Band that has just come out? If there is a software
>>  > solution, what would we need access to in order to implement something?
>>  >
>>  > Thoughts? We have their attention! We might be able to really influence
>>  > this game. Certainly I'll make Alex aware of Eelke's design solution for
>>  > Guitar Hero for the visually impaired. But this is a rare direct
>>  > opportunity for us to work with a major game company on current and
>future
>>  > versions of this so we can get an inside look at what it takes to
>>  > implement any one solution in a company. If it works out, this gives us
>>  > some "street cred" as a group and be able to talk about the process at,
>  > > say, next year's GDC with them.
>>  >
>>  > Hey, it could happen -- this is the CEO we're talking to!
>>  >
>>  > Michelle
>>  > _______________________________________________
>>  > games_access mailing list
>>  > games_access at igda.org
>>  > http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>
>>  _______________________________________________
>>  games_access mailing list
>>  games_access at igda.org
>>  http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access



From devellison at gmail.com  Sun Dec 16 00:07:29 2007
From: devellison at gmail.com (Michael Ellison)
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2007 23:07:29 -0600
Subject: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!
In-Reply-To: <a6673b8d0712151825s21e44c28ue24f9c6d49082014@mail.gmail.com>
References: <p0623091ac389ed7eef67@130.126.29.12>
	<00e601c83f7d$06a026c0$6402a8c0@Delletje>
	<a6673b8d0712151825s21e44c28ue24f9c6d49082014@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f2235baa0712152107t5faa9f8fl2867c819925c7f1f@mail.gmail.com>

The automation of inputs sounds like an excellent idea.  I think you'd
want it generic and per-input though and be clear that it's not *just*
the foot pedal that could be problematic. e.g. Def Leopard's Rick
Allen could easily handle the bass pedal (and a few more), but one of
the pads might be a pain to hit simultaneously with another one.

I've only played the original GH briefly - do these games identify the
different players at the start of the game?  Tying such settings to
individual users/names would be nice, so that if you're taking turns
it'd automatically reconfigure itself for each person once those
configurations are set and keep the accounts/configurations around as
options for future gaming sessions.

As far as hardware - if they provided a way to use a generic
controller instead of the custom ones (e.g. use a standard gamepad
instead of the guitar for instance, where the whammy bar became the
joystick), and in software allowed for remapping of the generic
controller's inputs and to the expected inputs of the custom
controller, then that should allow people to use things like the
QuadControl.com's controller to play, wouldn't it? Anything
excessively hard to do with such a controller could be switched to
"automatic mode" in the software? Making these configurations also
per-user as above would be nice as well.

Cheers,
Mike

On Dec 15, 2007 8:25 PM, Reid Kimball <reid at rbkdesign.com> wrote:
> This is a difficult problem to solve. I think in the future a sip/puff
> mechanism should be considered. Rock Band 2: On Tour or whatever it
> will be called could ship with headset microphones for everyone, or
> why couldn't players use their current gaming headsets? You wear it,
> assuming it's snug enough to stay on with the head thrashing and blow
> into it to use the kick pedal.
>
> Other than that, I say give the players what they want, if they are
> requesting that the kick stand action be automatic, best to do that in
> a future patch.
>
> I think people who are new to games and not technically disabled will
> benefit from game modes that automate difficult actions, such as EA's
> Family Play controls for their Wii sports games.
>
> -Reid
>
>
> On Dec 15, 2007 4:45 PM, AudioGames.net <richard at audiogames.net> wrote:
> >
> > Great question!
> >
> > First thing to jump to mind is to do something with the gamer's mouth/vocal
> > options because it's free and available. Two ideas would then be either some
> > very simple bite/sip/puff controller or a very simple head mic-setup (of
> > course you need to be careful in a room full of sound with placing mics). A
> > sip/puff/bite controller has the issue of hygiene which can be a pretty big
> > problem. If so, go for the mic (which is simple hardware as well). The only
> > thing you need from either the mic or the sip/puff/bite controller is a
> > trigger of some sort. A player would then use his arms for the standard
> > hi-hat/snare/toms/riot/crashes/cowbell-stuff, and "sing" the kick:
> > "boom"+hihat > hihat > hihat+snare > "boomboom"+hihat > etc. A benefit of
> > this solution is that I think it can actually add to the fun of the game.
> > The drummers in the bands I used to play in were always the types of guys
> > who would always mimic what they were playing with their voice:
> > "boom-tjak-ka-boomboom-tjakcrash"- that sort of thing (especially in the bar
> > after practice ;).  Also, when synced with samples of a kick-drum, gamers
> > might be awed, thinking it is really cool to "boom" in a mic and hear a
> > kickdrum from the machine ;) It might even turned out to make the game a bit
> > easier... ? Alex, is there is a lot of double kickdrum in there?
> >
> > Greets,
> >
> > Richard
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "d. michelle hinn" <hinn at uiuc.edu>
> > To: <games_access at igda.org>
> > Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 12:30 AM
> > Subject: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!
> >
> >
> >
> > > Hey everyone,
> > >
> > > So I've been talking to the CEO of Harmonix about Accessibility and "Rock
> > > Band." If you haven't yet seen it (ie, you were definitely not at a booth
> > > right across from them at E for All!) -- Harmonix was also behind Guitar
> > > Hero 1, 2, and 80s but then they spun that off to focus on Rock Band
> > > (which works with up to two guitars, a drum kit, and a mic). Right now
> > > it's available (USB wired) for Xbox 360, (wireless --
> > > I think...) for PS3, and then (wired again) for PS2 (they have a USB hub
> > > that plugs into the USB slot to allow for 4 separate USB devices).
> > >
> > > Here's the situation from Alex:
> > >
> > > "One obvious thing that has already become apparent in the forums is that
> > > there's a demand among
> > > paraplegic gamers for a mode of the drumming game in Rock Band that
> > > doesn't require the kick pedal."
> > >
> > > I was thinking about hardware solutions that might work, that perhaps a
> > > set of drumsticks that has some kind of squeeze mechanism might work but
> > > that might be tough to pull off while you are drumming. Having the foot
> > > pedal in as a hat sensor would be difficult for those who want to "ROCK!"
> > > (hehe...head banging). The thing is that there are times when you have to
> > > hit the drum pads with both sticks and the foot pedal all at the same
> > > time...so simply not using the pedal is not an option if you want to
> > > progress through the game.
> > >
> > > One thing for sure is the drums? It's the toughest thing on Rock Band -- I
> > > brought it to a party last night and we had three people playing as "the
> > > drummer" at the same time in order to avoid our "band" from getting kicked
> > > off stage again and again -- even then the point difference between the
> > > guitar and vocal versus the drums...guitar and vocal were in the 80s and
> > > 90s/100 on "easy" and drums got to about as high as 60/100 also on "easy."
> > > And this was from people who had never played Sing Star or Guitar Hero on
> > > the other instruments. So there's some balance issues that are coupled
> > > along with it.
> > >
> > > So I'm thinking that a mode that didn't involve the kick pedal might be
> > > more attractive in general...perhaps as some sort of patch (harder with
> > > consoles if you don't have it hooked up to the net but they might be
> > > willing to send out a patch on a game disk for free or the cost of
> > > shipping and handling). Or it might just be a "for the next version" kind
> > > of thing.
> > >
> > > But can anything be done NOW with regard to a hardware alternative for
> > > this version of Rock Band that has just come out? If there is a software
> > > solution, what would we need access to in order to implement something?
> > >
> > > Thoughts? We have their attention! We might be able to really influence
> > > this game. Certainly I'll make Alex aware of Eelke's design solution for
> > > Guitar Hero for the visually impaired. But this is a rare direct
> > > opportunity for us to work with a major game company on current and future
> > > versions of this so we can get an inside look at what it takes to
> > > implement any one solution in a company. If it works out, this gives us
> > > some "street cred" as a group and be able to talk about the process at,
> > > say, next year's GDC with them.
> > >
> > > Hey, it could happen -- this is the CEO we're talking to!
> > >
> > > Michelle
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > games_access mailing list
> > > games_access at igda.org
> > > http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > games_access mailing list
> > games_access at igda.org
> > http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
> >
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>


From hinn at uiuc.edu  Sun Dec 16 00:48:43 2007
From: hinn at uiuc.edu (d. michelle hinn)
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2007 23:48:43 -0600
Subject: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!
In-Reply-To: <f2235baa0712152107t5faa9f8fl2867c819925c7f1f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <p0623091ac389ed7eef67@130.126.29.12>
	<00e601c83f7d$06a026c0$6402a8c0@Delletje>
	<a6673b8d0712151825s21e44c28ue24f9c6d49082014@mail.gmail.com>
	<f2235baa0712152107t5faa9f8fl2867c819925c7f1f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <p06230920c38a6505f2ec@[130.126.29.12]>

Hey Mike --

>The automation of inputs sounds like an excellent idea.  I think you'd
>want it generic and per-input though and be clear that it's not *just*
>the foot pedal that could be problematic. e.g. Def Leopard's Rick
>Allen could easily handle the bass pedal (and a few more), but one of
>the pads might be a pain to hit simultaneously with another one.

Yep, I was thinking about Rick Allen -- I'll have to do some surfing 
to give them some links on how drummers with mobility disabilities 
and amputees trick out their drum kits for their own personal 
situation. That might give Rock Band another source for information 
(actually...I'm wondering if we could get Rick Allen in on the 
accessible drum kit? I know that the Harmonix guys know some of the 
band contacts. I'm serious! How cool would that be to be able to buy 
a special edition Rick Allen controller that could be reconfigured to 
work with switches and so forth? For info on his custom kit: 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Allen_%28drummer%29

>I've only played the original GH briefly - do these games identify the
>different players at the start of the game?  Tying such settings to
>individual users/names would be nice, so that if you're taking turns
>it'd automatically reconfigure itself for each person once those
>configurations are set and keep the accounts/configurations around as
>options for future gaming sessions.

Yes, you pick your own player and name them (and then you can outfit 
them with cooler clothes and instruments when you earn cash from 
gigs) and it saves your progress and such. So I would think saving 
accessibility configurations would be pretty easy.

>As far as hardware - if they provided a way to use a generic
>controller instead of the custom ones (e.g. use a standard gamepad
>instead of the guitar for instance, where the whammy bar became the
>joystick), and in software allowed for remapping of the generic
>controller's inputs and to the expected inputs of the custom
>controller, then that should allow people to use things like the
>QuadControl.com's controller to play, wouldn't it? Anything
>excessively hard to do with such a controller could be switched to
>"automatic mode" in the software? Making these configurations also
>per-user as above would be nice as well.

Hmm...yeah there is no way to play without a USB 
controller...but...I'm wondering if one of Barrie's USB controllers 
might be "tricked" to work with Rock Band -- I mean they already need 
a hub to fit four instruments so one of those could be an accessible 
controller...and then someone with different mobility issues might be 
able to play with a hacked controller connected to five switches 
(four for the drum pad and one for the pedal. I'll also introduce 
them to the Quad Controller for the 360 -- they may have a "cheat" or 
something that would allow someone to override an instrument 
(stranger things have been put in games).

Now this discussion is kind of cool and super fun -- maybe we should 
start brainstorming on a game every other week where we know we have 
a friendly person in a high powered position who could make things 
happen. We could advert it on forums and our blogs for more 
suggestions. Mark and Barrie could help us on the blog end of things 
and I can contact some other groups.

We could then present them with mini-usability reports and if they 
are interested in more info/help then they can help support the 
GA-SIG foundation (our soon-to-be-made-real non-profit) where we 
could earmark for travel scholarships for SIG members to conferences 
like the GDC where they are speakers, etc. It's a bird...It's a 
plane...no...It's "SIG PROJECT PRACTICAL!!!!!"

I'm trying to set up a meeting with Alex and the Harmonix gang at GDC 
so we can show them the controllers, Eelke's haptic solution for the 
blind, how they are used, and discuss things further. Who doesn't 
want to ROCK after all? Beethoven was deaf -- and yet it was a 
rockstar back in his day. ;)

Let me see if I can get a couple kits if we sign our lives away and 
promise not to resell them on ebay.

Trust me on this one -- we have already benefited from the private 
generosity of Harmonix employees who dig our work. I can't say much 
more but trust me -- I know.

Michelle
-------------- next part --------------
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From eelke.folmer at gmail.com  Sun Dec 16 03:10:01 2007
From: eelke.folmer at gmail.com (Eelke Folmer)
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 00:10:01 -0800
Subject: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!
In-Reply-To: <p06230920c38a6505f2ec@130.126.29.12>
References: <p0623091ac389ed7eef67@130.126.29.12>
	<00e601c83f7d$06a026c0$6402a8c0@Delletje>
	<a6673b8d0712151825s21e44c28ue24f9c6d49082014@mail.gmail.com>
	<f2235baa0712152107t5faa9f8fl2867c819925c7f1f@mail.gmail.com>
	<p06230920c38a6505f2ec@130.126.29.12>
Message-ID: <836db6300712160010w349cf600oaf42985b80e7447c@mail.gmail.com>

Hey,

Interesting problem, maybe a viable strategy would be to find the
gross or lowest denominator of the amount of interaction that a
paraplegic could provide; e.g. if this is a one switch you obviously
have a hard time providing five different inputs. Some amount of
interaction has to go or be automated.

I assume we will not be able to modify the existing source code and
hence a solution must be found in the hardware. If you want to
automate particular drum beats there is no way to get this information
through a controller unless you would be using a videocamera that
would monitor the screen to see which buttons need to be pressed.

I propose a simple solution:

just splitting up the drums (physically) into a part (1-5) drums that
can be played by a paraplegic and the other part (1-5) shall be played
by another human. You need 4 people anyway so finding a 5th should not
be a problem. If the paraplegic is unable to drum but can only use sip
and puff i would suggest splitting up the controller for the drums in
a sipp and puff part and the remaining drum parts.

Cheers Eelke

On 15/12/2007, d. michelle hinn <hinn at uiuc.edu> wrote:
>
>
> Hey Mike --
>
>
> The automation of inputs sounds like an excellent idea.  I think you'd
>  want it generic and per-input though and be clear that it's not *just*
>  the foot pedal that could be problematic. e.g. Def Leopard's Rick
> Allen could easily handle the bass pedal (and a few more), but one of
>  the pads might be a pain to hit simultaneously with another one.
>
>
> Yep, I was thinking about Rick Allen -- I'll have to do some surfing to give
> them some links on how drummers with mobility disabilities and amputees
> trick out their drum kits for their own personal situation. That might give
> Rock Band another source for information (actually...I'm wondering if we
> could get Rick Allen in on the accessible drum kit? I know that the Harmonix
> guys know some of the band contacts. I'm serious! How cool would that be to
> be able to buy a special edition Rick Allen controller that could be
> reconfigured to work with switches and so forth? For info on his custom kit:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Allen_%28drummer%29
>
>
> I've only played the original GH briefly - do these games identify the
>  different players at the start of the game?  Tying such settings to
>  individual users/names would be nice, so that if you're taking turns
>  it'd automatically reconfigure itself for each person once those
>  configurations are set and keep the accounts/configurations around as
> options for future gaming sessions.
>
>
> Yes, you pick your own player and name them (and then you can outfit them
> with cooler clothes and instruments when you earn cash from gigs) and it
> saves your progress and such. So I would think saving accessibility
> configurations would be pretty easy.
>
>
> As far as hardware - if they provided a way to use a generic
>  controller instead of the custom ones (e.g. use a standard gamepad
>  instead of the guitar for instance, where the whammy bar became the
>  joystick), and in software allowed for remapping of the generic
>  controller's inputs and to the expected inputs of the custom
>  controller, then that should allow people to use things like the
>  QuadControl.com's controller to play, wouldn't it? Anything
>  excessively hard to do with such a controller could be switched to
>  "automatic mode" in the software? Making these configurations also
> per-user as above would be nice as well.
>
>
> Hmm...yeah there is no way to play without a USB controller...but...I'm
> wondering if one of Barrie's USB controllers might be "tricked" to work with
> Rock Band -- I mean they already need a hub to fit four instruments so one
> of those could be an accessible controller...and then someone with different
> mobility issues might be able to play with a hacked controller connected to
> five switches (four for the drum pad and one for the pedal. I'll also
> introduce them to the Quad Controller for the 360 -- they may have a "cheat"
> or something that would allow someone to override an instrument (stranger
> things have been put in games).
>
>
> Now this discussion is kind of cool and super fun -- maybe we should start
> brainstorming on a game every other week where we know we have a friendly
> person in a high powered position who could make things happen. We could
> advert it on forums and our blogs for more suggestions. Mark and Barrie
> could help us on the blog end of things and I can contact some other groups.
>
>
> We could then present them with mini-usability reports and if they are
> interested in more info/help then they can help support the GA-SIG
> foundation (our soon-to-be-made-real non-profit) where we could earmark for
> travel scholarships for SIG members to conferences like the GDC where they
> are speakers, etc. It's a bird...It's a plane...no...It's "SIG PROJECT
> PRACTICAL!!!!!"
>
>
> I'm trying to set up a meeting with Alex and the Harmonix gang at GDC so we
> can show them the controllers, Eelke's haptic solution for the blind, how
> they are used, and discuss things further. Who doesn't want to ROCK after
> all? Beethoven was deaf -- and yet it was a rockstar back in his day. ;)
>
>
> Let me see if I can get a couple kits if we sign our lives away and promise
> not to resell them on ebay.
>
>
> Trust me on this one -- we have already benefited from the private
> generosity of Harmonix employees who dig our work. I can't say much more but
> trust me -- I know.
>
>
> Michelle
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>


-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eelke Folmer                           Assistant Professor
Department of CS&E/171
University of Nevada              Reno, Nevada 89557
Game interaction design        www.helpyouplay.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------------


From hinn at uiuc.edu  Sun Dec 16 03:31:37 2007
From: hinn at uiuc.edu (hinn at uiuc.edu)
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 02:31:37 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!
Message-ID: <20071216023137.AZG77925@expms2.cites.uiuc.edu>

Hey --

The main issue is that they cannot use the foot pedal but they can use the drum pad (the other four inputs) using the drum sticks -- they are paraplegic and not quadriplegic...although Harmonix would like to know solution ideas for quadriplegic gamers as well!

I have asked to see if we could get into the source code if we sign away our lives -- worst case he just says "no way." And that's cool. I can understand keeping the code close to the vest. Doesn't hurt to propose it though.

At the party I was at last night, it took 2-3 people without mobility disabilities to play the drum on "easy" mode. So add in any mobility disability and it's even tougher!

Another thing to think about is solo practice -- you can go through the game just playing the drum with AI players. So there is a loss of independence for paraplegic gamers who would have to get a friend to "drum" with them. So they get used to each other's cues and styles...what happens at a party when the friend might not be there and a "substitute" second person is needed. It's not absolutely critical but it can get annoying to get used to someone else who is essentially a part of your "skills" package -- after all, a lot of (most?) people practice on their own so that they can keep up with and/or beat the crap out of their fellow game players. Yeah...rockband IS about collaboration...but...when the scores came up, there was always clearly "the winner." :)

Did I mention that I think this discussion is really cool? ;)

Michelle

---- Original message ----
>Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 00:10:01 -0800
>From: "Eelke Folmer" <eelke.folmer at gmail.com>  
>Subject: Re: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!  
>To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
>
>Hey,
>
>Interesting problem, maybe a viable strategy would be to find the
>gross or lowest denominator of the amount of interaction that a
>paraplegic could provide; e.g. if this is a one switch you obviously
>have a hard time providing five different inputs. Some amount of
>interaction has to go or be automated.
>
>I assume we will not be able to modify the existing source code and
>hence a solution must be found in the hardware. If you want to
>automate particular drum beats there is no way to get this information
>through a controller unless you would be using a videocamera that
>would monitor the screen to see which buttons need to be pressed.
>
>I propose a simple solution:
>
>just splitting up the drums (physically) into a part (1-5) drums that
>can be played by a paraplegic and the other part (1-5) shall be played
>by another human. You need 4 people anyway so finding a 5th should not
>be a problem. If the paraplegic is unable to drum but can only use sip
>and puff i would suggest splitting up the controller for the drums in
>a sipp and puff part and the remaining drum parts.
>
>Cheers Eelke
>
>On 15/12/2007, d. michelle hinn <hinn at uiuc.edu> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Hey Mike --
>>
>>
>> The automation of inputs sounds like an excellent idea.  I think you'd
>>  want it generic and per-input though and be clear that it's not *just*
>>  the foot pedal that could be problematic. e.g. Def Leopard's Rick
>> Allen could easily handle the bass pedal (and a few more), but one of
>>  the pads might be a pain to hit simultaneously with another one.
>>
>>
>> Yep, I was thinking about Rick Allen -- I'll have to do some surfing to give
>> them some links on how drummers with mobility disabilities and amputees
>> trick out their drum kits for their own personal situation. That might give
>> Rock Band another source for information (actually...I'm wondering if we
>> could get Rick Allen in on the accessible drum kit? I know that the Harmonix
>> guys know some of the band contacts. I'm serious! How cool would that be to
>> be able to buy a special edition Rick Allen controller that could be
>> reconfigured to work with switches and so forth? For info on his custom kit:
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Allen_%28drummer%29
>>
>>
>> I've only played the original GH briefly - do these games identify the
>>  different players at the start of the game?  Tying such settings to
>>  individual users/names would be nice, so that if you're taking turns
>>  it'd automatically reconfigure itself for each person once those
>>  configurations are set and keep the accounts/configurations around as
>> options for future gaming sessions.
>>
>>
>> Yes, you pick your own player and name them (and then you can outfit them
>> with cooler clothes and instruments when you earn cash from gigs) and it
>> saves your progress and such. So I would think saving accessibility
>> configurations would be pretty easy.
>>
>>
>> As far as hardware - if they provided a way to use a generic
>>  controller instead of the custom ones (e.g. use a standard gamepad
>>  instead of the guitar for instance, where the whammy bar became the
>>  joystick), and in software allowed for remapping of the generic
>>  controller's inputs and to the expected inputs of the custom
>>  controller, then that should allow people to use things like the
>>  QuadControl.com's controller to play, wouldn't it? Anything
>>  excessively hard to do with such a controller could be switched to
>>  "automatic mode" in the software? Making these configurations also
>> per-user as above would be nice as well.
>>
>>
>> Hmm...yeah there is no way to play without a USB controller...but...I'm
>> wondering if one of Barrie's USB controllers might be "tricked" to work with
>> Rock Band -- I mean they already need a hub to fit four instruments so one
>> of those could be an accessible controller...and then someone with different
>> mobility issues might be able to play with a hacked controller connected to
>> five switches (four for the drum pad and one for the pedal. I'll also
>> introduce them to the Quad Controller for the 360 -- they may have a "cheat"
>> or something that would allow someone to override an instrument (stranger
>> things have been put in games).
>>
>>
>> Now this discussion is kind of cool and super fun -- maybe we should start
>> brainstorming on a game every other week where we know we have a friendly
>> person in a high powered position who could make things happen. We could
>> advert it on forums and our blogs for more suggestions. Mark and Barrie
>> could help us on the blog end of things and I can contact some other groups.
>>
>>
>> We could then present them with mini-usability reports and if they are
>> interested in more info/help then they can help support the GA-SIG
>> foundation (our soon-to-be-made-real non-profit) where we could earmark for
>> travel scholarships for SIG members to conferences like the GDC where they
>> are speakers, etc. It's a bird...It's a plane...no...It's "SIG PROJECT
>> PRACTICAL!!!!!"
>>
>>
>> I'm trying to set up a meeting with Alex and the Harmonix gang at GDC so we
>> can show them the controllers, Eelke's haptic solution for the blind, how
>> they are used, and discuss things further. Who doesn't want to ROCK after
>> all? Beethoven was deaf -- and yet it was a rockstar back in his day. ;)
>>
>>
>> Let me see if I can get a couple kits if we sign our lives away and promise
>> not to resell them on ebay.
>>
>>
>> Trust me on this one -- we have already benefited from the private
>> generosity of Harmonix employees who dig our work. I can't say much more but
>> trust me -- I know.
>>
>>
>> Michelle
>> _______________________________________________
>> games_access mailing list
>> games_access at igda.org
>> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>
>>
>
>
>-- 
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Eelke Folmer                           Assistant Professor
>Department of CS&E/171
>University of Nevada              Reno, Nevada 89557
>Game interaction design        www.helpyouplay.com
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
.......................................
these are mediocre times and people are 
losing hope. it's hard for many people 
to believe that there are extraordinary 
things inside themselves, as well as 
others. i hope you can keep an open 
mind.
 -- "unbreakable"
.......................................


From richard at audiogames.net  Sun Dec 16 07:00:20 2007
From: richard at audiogames.net (AudioGames.net)
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 13:00:20 +0100
Subject: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!
References: <p0623091ac389ed7eef67@130.126.29.12><00e601c83f7d$06a026c0$6402a8c0@Delletje>
	<a6673b8d0712151825s21e44c28ue24f9c6d49082014@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002f01c83fdb$3b9fdf60$6402a8c0@Delletje>

Hi,

You don't really need to "blow" into a mic to trigger it. Simple whisper the 
right letter (anything with "P" will do - that's why plop-filters were 
invented), maybe add a noise gate and it'll work as a trigger.

Greets,

Richard



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Reid Kimball" <reid at rbkdesign.com>
To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 3:25 AM
Subject: Re: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!


> This is a difficult problem to solve. I think in the future a sip/puff
> mechanism should be considered. Rock Band 2: On Tour or whatever it
> will be called could ship with headset microphones for everyone, or
> why couldn't players use their current gaming headsets? You wear it,
> assuming it's snug enough to stay on with the head thrashing and blow
> into it to use the kick pedal.
>
> Other than that, I say give the players what they want, if they are
> requesting that the kick stand action be automatic, best to do that in
> a future patch.
>
> I think people who are new to games and not technically disabled will
> benefit from game modes that automate difficult actions, such as EA's
> Family Play controls for their Wii sports games.
>
> -Reid
>
> On Dec 15, 2007 4:45 PM, AudioGames.net <richard at audiogames.net> wrote:
>>
>> Great question!
>>
>> First thing to jump to mind is to do something with the gamer's 
>> mouth/vocal
>> options because it's free and available. Two ideas would then be either 
>> some
>> very simple bite/sip/puff controller or a very simple head mic-setup (of
>> course you need to be careful in a room full of sound with placing mics). 
>> A
>> sip/puff/bite controller has the issue of hygiene which can be a pretty 
>> big
>> problem. If so, go for the mic (which is simple hardware as well). The 
>> only
>> thing you need from either the mic or the sip/puff/bite controller is a
>> trigger of some sort. A player would then use his arms for the standard
>> hi-hat/snare/toms/riot/crashes/cowbell-stuff, and "sing" the kick:
>> "boom"+hihat > hihat > hihat+snare > "boomboom"+hihat > etc. A benefit of
>> this solution is that I think it can actually add to the fun of the game.
>> The drummers in the bands I used to play in were always the types of guys
>> who would always mimic what they were playing with their voice:
>> "boom-tjak-ka-boomboom-tjakcrash"- that sort of thing (especially in the 
>> bar
>> after practice ;).  Also, when synced with samples of a kick-drum, gamers
>> might be awed, thinking it is really cool to "boom" in a mic and hear a
>> kickdrum from the machine ;) It might even turned out to make the game a 
>> bit
>> easier... ? Alex, is there is a lot of double kickdrum in there?
>>
>> Greets,
>>
>> Richard
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "d. michelle hinn" <hinn at uiuc.edu>
>> To: <games_access at igda.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 12:30 AM
>> Subject: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!
>>
>>
>>
>> > Hey everyone,
>> >
>> > So I've been talking to the CEO of Harmonix about Accessibility and 
>> > "Rock
>> > Band." If you haven't yet seen it (ie, you were definitely not at a 
>> > booth
>> > right across from them at E for All!) -- Harmonix was also behind 
>> > Guitar
>> > Hero 1, 2, and 80s but then they spun that off to focus on Rock Band
>> > (which works with up to two guitars, a drum kit, and a mic). Right now
>> > it's available (USB wired) for Xbox 360, (wireless --
>> > I think...) for PS3, and then (wired again) for PS2 (they have a USB 
>> > hub
>> > that plugs into the USB slot to allow for 4 separate USB devices).
>> >
>> > Here's the situation from Alex:
>> >
>> > "One obvious thing that has already become apparent in the forums is 
>> > that
>> > there's a demand among
>> > paraplegic gamers for a mode of the drumming game in Rock Band that
>> > doesn't require the kick pedal."
>> >
>> > I was thinking about hardware solutions that might work, that perhaps a
>> > set of drumsticks that has some kind of squeeze mechanism might work 
>> > but
>> > that might be tough to pull off while you are drumming. Having the foot
>> > pedal in as a hat sensor would be difficult for those who want to 
>> > "ROCK!"
>> > (hehe...head banging). The thing is that there are times when you have 
>> > to
>> > hit the drum pads with both sticks and the foot pedal all at the same
>> > time...so simply not using the pedal is not an option if you want to
>> > progress through the game.
>> >
>> > One thing for sure is the drums? It's the toughest thing on Rock 
>> > Band -- I
>> > brought it to a party last night and we had three people playing as 
>> > "the
>> > drummer" at the same time in order to avoid our "band" from getting 
>> > kicked
>> > off stage again and again -- even then the point difference between the
>> > guitar and vocal versus the drums...guitar and vocal were in the 80s 
>> > and
>> > 90s/100 on "easy" and drums got to about as high as 60/100 also on 
>> > "easy."
>> > And this was from people who had never played Sing Star or Guitar Hero 
>> > on
>> > the other instruments. So there's some balance issues that are coupled
>> > along with it.
>> >
>> > So I'm thinking that a mode that didn't involve the kick pedal might be
>> > more attractive in general...perhaps as some sort of patch (harder with
>> > consoles if you don't have it hooked up to the net but they might be
>> > willing to send out a patch on a game disk for free or the cost of
>> > shipping and handling). Or it might just be a "for the next version" 
>> > kind
>> > of thing.
>> >
>> > But can anything be done NOW with regard to a hardware alternative for
>> > this version of Rock Band that has just come out? If there is a 
>> > software
>> > solution, what would we need access to in order to implement something?
>> >
>> > Thoughts? We have their attention! We might be able to really influence
>> > this game. Certainly I'll make Alex aware of Eelke's design solution 
>> > for
>> > Guitar Hero for the visually impaired. But this is a rare direct
>> > opportunity for us to work with a major game company on current and 
>> > future
>> > versions of this so we can get an inside look at what it takes to
>> > implement any one solution in a company. If it works out, this gives us
>> > some "street cred" as a group and be able to talk about the process at,
>> > say, next year's GDC with them.
>> >
>> > Hey, it could happen -- this is the CEO we're talking to!
>> >
>> > Michelle
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > games_access mailing list
>> > games_access at igda.org
>> > http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> games_access mailing list
>> games_access at igda.org
>> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access 



From richard at audiogames.net  Sun Dec 16 07:05:11 2007
From: richard at audiogames.net (AudioGames.net)
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 13:05:11 +0100
Subject: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!
References: <p0623091ac389ed7eef67@130.126.29.12><00e601c83f7d$06a026c0$6402a8c0@Delletje><a6673b8d0712151825s21e44c28ue24f9c6d49082014@mail.gmail.com>
	<f2235baa0712152107t5faa9f8fl2867c819925c7f1f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003c01c83fdb$e912f2e0$6402a8c0@Delletje>

Hi,

*quote*
... but one of the pads might be a pain to hit simultaneously with another 
one.
*quote end*

I was wondering whether or not the pads allow for rim-shots and that sort of 
thing. Does anyone know? I did some drumming on an electronic Yamaha drumkit 
but if I remember correctly, things like rimshots could not be done. If it 
can, one could trigger the kickdrum by simply hitting the pads in a 
different manner.

Greets,

Richard




>
> I've only played the original GH briefly - do these games identify the
> different players at the start of the game?  Tying such settings to
> individual users/names would be nice, so that if you're taking turns
> it'd automatically reconfigure itself for each person once those
> configurations are set and keep the accounts/configurations around as
> options for future gaming sessions.
>
> As far as hardware - if they provided a way to use a generic
> controller instead of the custom ones (e.g. use a standard gamepad
> instead of the guitar for instance, where the whammy bar became the
> joystick), and in software allowed for remapping of the generic
> controller's inputs and to the expected inputs of the custom
> controller, then that should allow people to use things like the
> QuadControl.com's controller to play, wouldn't it? Anything
> excessively hard to do with such a controller could be switched to
> "automatic mode" in the software? Making these configurations also
> per-user as above would be nice as well.
>
> Cheers,
> Mike
>
> On Dec 15, 2007 8:25 PM, Reid Kimball <reid at rbkdesign.com> wrote:
>> This is a difficult problem to solve. I think in the future a sip/puff
>> mechanism should be considered. Rock Band 2: On Tour or whatever it
>> will be called could ship with headset microphones for everyone, or
>> why couldn't players use their current gaming headsets? You wear it,
>> assuming it's snug enough to stay on with the head thrashing and blow
>> into it to use the kick pedal.
>>
>> Other than that, I say give the players what they want, if they are
>> requesting that the kick stand action be automatic, best to do that in
>> a future patch.
>>
>> I think people who are new to games and not technically disabled will
>> benefit from game modes that automate difficult actions, such as EA's
>> Family Play controls for their Wii sports games.
>>
>> -Reid
>>
>>
>> On Dec 15, 2007 4:45 PM, AudioGames.net <richard at audiogames.net> wrote:
>> >
>> > Great question!
>> >
>> > First thing to jump to mind is to do something with the gamer's 
>> > mouth/vocal
>> > options because it's free and available. Two ideas would then be either 
>> > some
>> > very simple bite/sip/puff controller or a very simple head mic-setup 
>> > (of
>> > course you need to be careful in a room full of sound with placing 
>> > mics). A
>> > sip/puff/bite controller has the issue of hygiene which can be a pretty 
>> > big
>> > problem. If so, go for the mic (which is simple hardware as well). The 
>> > only
>> > thing you need from either the mic or the sip/puff/bite controller is a
>> > trigger of some sort. A player would then use his arms for the standard
>> > hi-hat/snare/toms/riot/crashes/cowbell-stuff, and "sing" the kick:
>> > "boom"+hihat > hihat > hihat+snare > "boomboom"+hihat > etc. A benefit 
>> > of
>> > this solution is that I think it can actually add to the fun of the 
>> > game.
>> > The drummers in the bands I used to play in were always the types of 
>> > guys
>> > who would always mimic what they were playing with their voice:
>> > "boom-tjak-ka-boomboom-tjakcrash"- that sort of thing (especially in 
>> > the bar
>> > after practice ;).  Also, when synced with samples of a kick-drum, 
>> > gamers
>> > might be awed, thinking it is really cool to "boom" in a mic and hear a
>> > kickdrum from the machine ;) It might even turned out to make the game 
>> > a bit
>> > easier... ? Alex, is there is a lot of double kickdrum in there?
>> >
>> > Greets,
>> >
>> > Richard
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "d. michelle hinn" <hinn at uiuc.edu>
>> > To: <games_access at igda.org>
>> > Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 12:30 AM
>> > Subject: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > > Hey everyone,
>> > >
>> > > So I've been talking to the CEO of Harmonix about Accessibility and 
>> > > "Rock
>> > > Band." If you haven't yet seen it (ie, you were definitely not at a 
>> > > booth
>> > > right across from them at E for All!) -- Harmonix was also behind 
>> > > Guitar
>> > > Hero 1, 2, and 80s but then they spun that off to focus on Rock Band
>> > > (which works with up to two guitars, a drum kit, and a mic). Right 
>> > > now
>> > > it's available (USB wired) for Xbox 360, (wireless --
>> > > I think...) for PS3, and then (wired again) for PS2 (they have a USB 
>> > > hub
>> > > that plugs into the USB slot to allow for 4 separate USB devices).
>> > >
>> > > Here's the situation from Alex:
>> > >
>> > > "One obvious thing that has already become apparent in the forums is 
>> > > that
>> > > there's a demand among
>> > > paraplegic gamers for a mode of the drumming game in Rock Band that
>> > > doesn't require the kick pedal."
>> > >
>> > > I was thinking about hardware solutions that might work, that perhaps 
>> > > a
>> > > set of drumsticks that has some kind of squeeze mechanism might work 
>> > > but
>> > > that might be tough to pull off while you are drumming. Having the 
>> > > foot
>> > > pedal in as a hat sensor would be difficult for those who want to 
>> > > "ROCK!"
>> > > (hehe...head banging). The thing is that there are times when you 
>> > > have to
>> > > hit the drum pads with both sticks and the foot pedal all at the same
>> > > time...so simply not using the pedal is not an option if you want to
>> > > progress through the game.
>> > >
>> > > One thing for sure is the drums? It's the toughest thing on Rock 
>> > > Band -- I
>> > > brought it to a party last night and we had three people playing as 
>> > > "the
>> > > drummer" at the same time in order to avoid our "band" from getting 
>> > > kicked
>> > > off stage again and again -- even then the point difference between 
>> > > the
>> > > guitar and vocal versus the drums...guitar and vocal were in the 80s 
>> > > and
>> > > 90s/100 on "easy" and drums got to about as high as 60/100 also on 
>> > > "easy."
>> > > And this was from people who had never played Sing Star or Guitar 
>> > > Hero on
>> > > the other instruments. So there's some balance issues that are 
>> > > coupled
>> > > along with it.
>> > >
>> > > So I'm thinking that a mode that didn't involve the kick pedal might 
>> > > be
>> > > more attractive in general...perhaps as some sort of patch (harder 
>> > > with
>> > > consoles if you don't have it hooked up to the net but they might be
>> > > willing to send out a patch on a game disk for free or the cost of
>> > > shipping and handling). Or it might just be a "for the next version" 
>> > > kind
>> > > of thing.
>> > >
>> > > But can anything be done NOW with regard to a hardware alternative 
>> > > for
>> > > this version of Rock Band that has just come out? If there is a 
>> > > software
>> > > solution, what would we need access to in order to implement 
>> > > something?
>> > >
>> > > Thoughts? We have their attention! We might be able to really 
>> > > influence
>> > > this game. Certainly I'll make Alex aware of Eelke's design solution 
>> > > for
>> > > Guitar Hero for the visually impaired. But this is a rare direct
>> > > opportunity for us to work with a major game company on current and 
>> > > future
>> > > versions of this so we can get an inside look at what it takes to
>> > > implement any one solution in a company. If it works out, this gives 
>> > > us
>> > > some "street cred" as a group and be able to talk about the process 
>> > > at,
>> > > say, next year's GDC with them.
>> > >
>> > > Hey, it could happen -- this is the CEO we're talking to!
>> > >
>> > > Michelle
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > games_access mailing list
>> > > games_access at igda.org
>> > > http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > games_access mailing list
>> > games_access at igda.org
>> > http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>> >
>> _______________________________________________
>> games_access mailing list
>> games_access at igda.org
>> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access 



From richard at audiogames.net  Sun Dec 16 07:08:40 2007
From: richard at audiogames.net (AudioGames.net)
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 13:08:40 +0100
Subject: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!
References: <p0623091ac389ed7eef67@130.126.29.12><00e601c83f7d$06a026c0$6402a8c0@Delletje><a6673b8d0712151825s21e44c28ue24f9c6d49082014@mail.gmail.com>
	<002f01c83fdb$3b9fdf60$6402a8c0@Delletje>
Message-ID: <005d01c83fdc$6592be90$6402a8c0@Delletje>

Which, by the way, could be the start of RapBand*, consisting of one Human 
Beatbox-controller, a turntable-controller and 2 mics :)


*Babes, Bling and Cars not included


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "AudioGames.net" <richard at audiogames.net>
To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 1:00 PM
Subject: Re: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!


> Hi,
>
> You don't really need to "blow" into a mic to trigger it. Simple whisper 
> the right letter (anything with "P" will do - that's why plop-filters were 
> invented), maybe add a noise gate and it'll work as a trigger.
>
> Greets,
>
> Richard
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Reid Kimball" <reid at rbkdesign.com>
> To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
> Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 3:25 AM
> Subject: Re: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!
>
>
>> This is a difficult problem to solve. I think in the future a sip/puff
>> mechanism should be considered. Rock Band 2: On Tour or whatever it
>> will be called could ship with headset microphones for everyone, or
>> why couldn't players use their current gaming headsets? You wear it,
>> assuming it's snug enough to stay on with the head thrashing and blow
>> into it to use the kick pedal.
>>
>> Other than that, I say give the players what they want, if they are
>> requesting that the kick stand action be automatic, best to do that in
>> a future patch.
>>
>> I think people who are new to games and not technically disabled will
>> benefit from game modes that automate difficult actions, such as EA's
>> Family Play controls for their Wii sports games.
>>
>> -Reid
>>
>> On Dec 15, 2007 4:45 PM, AudioGames.net <richard at audiogames.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> Great question!
>>>
>>> First thing to jump to mind is to do something with the gamer's 
>>> mouth/vocal
>>> options because it's free and available. Two ideas would then be either 
>>> some
>>> very simple bite/sip/puff controller or a very simple head mic-setup (of
>>> course you need to be careful in a room full of sound with placing 
>>> mics). A
>>> sip/puff/bite controller has the issue of hygiene which can be a pretty 
>>> big
>>> problem. If so, go for the mic (which is simple hardware as well). The 
>>> only
>>> thing you need from either the mic or the sip/puff/bite controller is a
>>> trigger of some sort. A player would then use his arms for the standard
>>> hi-hat/snare/toms/riot/crashes/cowbell-stuff, and "sing" the kick:
>>> "boom"+hihat > hihat > hihat+snare > "boomboom"+hihat > etc. A benefit 
>>> of
>>> this solution is that I think it can actually add to the fun of the 
>>> game.
>>> The drummers in the bands I used to play in were always the types of 
>>> guys
>>> who would always mimic what they were playing with their voice:
>>> "boom-tjak-ka-boomboom-tjakcrash"- that sort of thing (especially in the 
>>> bar
>>> after practice ;).  Also, when synced with samples of a kick-drum, 
>>> gamers
>>> might be awed, thinking it is really cool to "boom" in a mic and hear a
>>> kickdrum from the machine ;) It might even turned out to make the game a 
>>> bit
>>> easier... ? Alex, is there is a lot of double kickdrum in there?
>>>
>>> Greets,
>>>
>>> Richard
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "d. michelle hinn" <hinn at uiuc.edu>
>>> To: <games_access at igda.org>
>>> Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 12:30 AM
>>> Subject: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> > Hey everyone,
>>> >
>>> > So I've been talking to the CEO of Harmonix about Accessibility and 
>>> > "Rock
>>> > Band." If you haven't yet seen it (ie, you were definitely not at a 
>>> > booth
>>> > right across from them at E for All!) -- Harmonix was also behind 
>>> > Guitar
>>> > Hero 1, 2, and 80s but then they spun that off to focus on Rock Band
>>> > (which works with up to two guitars, a drum kit, and a mic). Right now
>>> > it's available (USB wired) for Xbox 360, (wireless --
>>> > I think...) for PS3, and then (wired again) for PS2 (they have a USB 
>>> > hub
>>> > that plugs into the USB slot to allow for 4 separate USB devices).
>>> >
>>> > Here's the situation from Alex:
>>> >
>>> > "One obvious thing that has already become apparent in the forums is 
>>> > that
>>> > there's a demand among
>>> > paraplegic gamers for a mode of the drumming game in Rock Band that
>>> > doesn't require the kick pedal."
>>> >
>>> > I was thinking about hardware solutions that might work, that perhaps 
>>> > a
>>> > set of drumsticks that has some kind of squeeze mechanism might work 
>>> > but
>>> > that might be tough to pull off while you are drumming. Having the 
>>> > foot
>>> > pedal in as a hat sensor would be difficult for those who want to 
>>> > "ROCK!"
>>> > (hehe...head banging). The thing is that there are times when you have 
>>> > to
>>> > hit the drum pads with both sticks and the foot pedal all at the same
>>> > time...so simply not using the pedal is not an option if you want to
>>> > progress through the game.
>>> >
>>> > One thing for sure is the drums? It's the toughest thing on Rock 
>>> > Band -- I
>>> > brought it to a party last night and we had three people playing as 
>>> > "the
>>> > drummer" at the same time in order to avoid our "band" from getting 
>>> > kicked
>>> > off stage again and again -- even then the point difference between 
>>> > the
>>> > guitar and vocal versus the drums...guitar and vocal were in the 80s 
>>> > and
>>> > 90s/100 on "easy" and drums got to about as high as 60/100 also on 
>>> > "easy."
>>> > And this was from people who had never played Sing Star or Guitar Hero 
>>> > on
>>> > the other instruments. So there's some balance issues that are coupled
>>> > along with it.
>>> >
>>> > So I'm thinking that a mode that didn't involve the kick pedal might 
>>> > be
>>> > more attractive in general...perhaps as some sort of patch (harder 
>>> > with
>>> > consoles if you don't have it hooked up to the net but they might be
>>> > willing to send out a patch on a game disk for free or the cost of
>>> > shipping and handling). Or it might just be a "for the next version" 
>>> > kind
>>> > of thing.
>>> >
>>> > But can anything be done NOW with regard to a hardware alternative for
>>> > this version of Rock Band that has just come out? If there is a 
>>> > software
>>> > solution, what would we need access to in order to implement 
>>> > something?
>>> >
>>> > Thoughts? We have their attention! We might be able to really 
>>> > influence
>>> > this game. Certainly I'll make Alex aware of Eelke's design solution 
>>> > for
>>> > Guitar Hero for the visually impaired. But this is a rare direct
>>> > opportunity for us to work with a major game company on current and 
>>> > future
>>> > versions of this so we can get an inside look at what it takes to
>>> > implement any one solution in a company. If it works out, this gives 
>>> > us
>>> > some "street cred" as a group and be able to talk about the process 
>>> > at,
>>> > say, next year's GDC with them.
>>> >
>>> > Hey, it could happen -- this is the CEO we're talking to!
>>> >
>>> > Michelle
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > games_access mailing list
>>> > games_access at igda.org
>>> > http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> games_access mailing list
>>> games_access at igda.org
>>> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> games_access mailing list
>> games_access at igda.org
>> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access 



From foreversublime at hotmail.com  Sun Dec 16 09:58:11 2007
From: foreversublime at hotmail.com (Matthias Troup)
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 09:58:11 -0500
Subject: [games_access] Getting Federal government.  On our side.
In-Reply-To: <p0623090fc3792b11ceb6@[130.126.29.70]>
References: <003701c834d4$043173c0$0202a8c0@oneswitch>AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIzkPCwA
	<005401c8351b$59e1f9b0$6501a8c0@Inspiron><001501c8351f$2a45b990$0202a8c0@o
	neswitch>
	AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIykQSwA<008201c83544$ea1a75b0$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
	AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIxkQiwA
	<008a01c8354c$3c4c0220$6501a8c0@Inspiron> 
	<p0623090fc3792b11ceb6@[130.126.29.70]>
Message-ID: <BAY135-W27E8693A480E1BFFA9D3A7D9610@phx.gbl>

Getting a law passed should be an issue dropped from the SIG.  The bottom line is that games aren't meant for everyone to begin with.  Nothing is.

Influence through inspiration is an honorable way to meet the SIG's goals.  Forcing its hand by law is condemnable.  The former may not be the most effective, but the latter doesn't consider for one second that everything this SIG stands for MIGHT BE "WRONG".  On a social level accessibility *might* be a nice accomplishment.  How about from other perspectives?  Entertainment?  Art?  Creative freedom?  I enjoy designing accessible games on an independent/"hobbyist" basis,
but I cringe to think what forced accessibility would do (or not do) on
a grand scale.  I'll reserve my "what if" statements.

The only place accessibility may have a legal leg to stand on is in a public school setting.  Are most people with special needs able to attend public schools (bad question - as there is such a large range of disabilities)?  Does it impede the progress of able bodies?  Remember - in America - "The needs of the MANY outweigh the needs of a few" or so it's believed.  Are American children under-performing because the top 50% of students are being held back by laws, goals, and actions focused on the bottom 50% (I'm not assuming disabled people are "dumb", but most are "under-performing" by definition that they don't have tools needed to maximize potential)?  We can't be educated enough to know.  As wide a range of accessibility features there could be for different disabilities there are different points of view of how a law may have a positive or negative impact on the very society [able-bodied inclusive] this group is trying to help.  So, please continue to inspire, and please keep this out of reach from the law.











Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 22:24:04 -0600
To: games_access at igda.org
From: hinn at uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: [games_access] Getting Federal government.  On our side.




Re: [games_access] Getting Federal government.  On
our sid
This is true and I definitely was not trying to discourage the
petition -- but when we start talking laws...we start talking about
lawsuits. To do that is a whole different ballgame.


Movie industry captioning does fall, in part, under the Americans
with Disabilities Act but that ruling was in 2000 and the fight to get
at least seat based captioning is STILL ongoing with lawsuit after
lawsuit launched. The issue is that these require special devices and
sometimes seating that someone has to pick up the bill for (who pays
for that? The movie theatres? The movie industry?). The other issue is
captions on or below the screen -- The National Association of the
Deaf have been trying to get "open captioning" (captions on
or below the screen) of movies in theaters implemented for a loooooong
time now -- "open captioning" or on screen captioning is NOT
covered under the Americans with Disabilities Act for some reason so
there's ZERO incentive for the film industry to do that unless they
are showing a foreign language film) and there are entire chains of
movie theatres that do NOT provide captioning -- even
seat-based:


http://www.nad.org/site/pp.asp?c=foINKQMBF&b=100779


See also this page for more information on how the movie industry
has reacted (quoted from the website: "Movie studios and theaters have been slow to
adopt open captioning of movies by claiming that open captioning
causes a negative effect on box office sales." Sound
familiar???):


http://www.nad.org/site/pp.asp?c=foINKQMBF&b=100782


The above is a nice example of a position statement that is
perhaps more like what we want to go with regarding a petition.


A tax break initiative for movie theatre chains to do provide for
this was introduced in the JOBS act but when the final version of the
law passed, this was a "rider" on the law that was not
included. There have also been lawsuit after lawsuit after lawsuit
raised and those take forever and usually get dropped for one reason
or another.


So perhaps what we need to do is not just get a petition going
but actually get groups like the National Association of the Deaf and
so forth involved. Because we can get every name in the game industry
to sign the petition but it's powerful (and politically connected)
groups like these that launch the lawsuits -- they have the power,
connections, and the money to do this.


I know...this is soooo "American." It would be great if
there were easy and inexpensive options for the industry to implement,
that it was "politically correct" for a legislator to stand
behind this issue (remember...we are in election times...) -- the
veteran issue is great and I definitely use this example in talks that
I give. But on the flip side...games were also used to recruit so you
can imagine the powderkeg the senator/whoever that brings this up will
face. And with all the issues current candidates are having to
address...eeek. So once again the lawsuit issue comes up. For that? We
need way more power and we need the power and support of major
disability organizations.


Note: I am in no way saying "let's launch a lawsuit NOW."
In fact, by even raising the issue I'm probably pissing off every
developer on the list. Or not. I'm only raising the issue and pointing
out how other advocacy groups have handled this issue of accessibility
to entertainment.


Michelle (who on some days is tempted to go get a law degree in
night school...hahahahahahah...ok, seriously...I'm tired. And when
that happens all kinds of crazy things come to mind.)




I know what you mean Michelle.  But
the bottom line is there needs to be

something created so that the entertainment world has a standard
also.



Take for example the product brought out by the movie industry.



In order for their productivity listened to by people with heart
hearing,

the movie theaters themselves by law, have to provide assistance
technology

to help the people either see or hear with devices.


To me that seems like not exactly the same thing but something
similar.



The game design industry also provides a product that is not equal

opportunity to enjoy.



If we can get the petition circled around then we can send it to the
right

people who know the law and who can help us voice in if they see the
need,

which will combine the most important people we can find to sign
it.



Even if we just get around to the people we need to sign it, and then
send

it around to officials, and nothing happens, I think it makes a very
loud

statement.  Because then it can be documented who signed it.



I would imagine trying to get the key names in the industry to sign
it.

Even the employees for those companies.



Not to mention sending it out to all the important institutions.



On their web site for the petition web page they do say that it's

prohibited, not allowed, to mass e-mail yourself they set it up
somehow

targeting it to the right people I'm not sure how.



I do not know what that's all about.  Seems kind of crazy.



Robert



-----Original Message-----

From: games_access-bounces at igda.org
[mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]

On Behalf Of d. michelle hinn

Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 8:10 PM

To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List

Subject: Re: [games_access] Getting Federal government. On our
side.



Well, the reality is that it can take a VERY long time for a bill
to

become a law...and even longer for something to become a bill!
While

I think we should send something to the government I think the
first

step is going to be sending something that makes them aware that
this

is even an issue.



Then we probably need the help of a legislative attorney who knows

what specific constitutional laws are being violated and in what

instances. For instance, I'm pretty sure that there's no law that

requires that the music industry makes all CDs sold accessible to
all

so a federal law mandating that video games are accessible to all

seems like that's probably pretty improbable. But what about video

game tournaments that exclude disabled gamers or a video game
that's

marketed and used in schools (that, for sure, is a violation of US

law)?



I don't mean to be discouraging -- quite the opposite. We just
have

to know what's possible and what is realistic and what can be done

soon and what is going to take a whole lot of persistence.



Michelle



>Sounds great.  I'm just not sure how to tie it in a broad? 
How would that

>work?  I was suggesting that if it worked here it would
become something

>marketable that other countries with one the same stamp of
approval.

>

>My thoughts would be if it was made into some kind of legislation
who makes

>up the ideas for ranking if it becomes accepted?

>

>I think the best thing is to put together the petition that I
will

>definitely start writing.  And then if we get any important
representatives

>responding they can let us know what they think the best solution
would be.

>

>Ultimately I think it should be something we can make money from
instead of

>giving away all our ideas.  So I'm sure there will be
guidelines written up

>basic ones may be but then after that someone needs to regulate
it.

>

>Kind of like what Hillary Clinton set up with the MSRP people. 
And as they

>might already have a branch or suggest a private branch which
would be

>better.  Maybe they would find it and give us a place to
locate.  One of

the

>best persuasive points to put in the petition would be for the
injured

>soldiers.

>

>Robert

>

>-----Original Message-----

>From: games_access-bounces at igda.org
[mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]

>On Behalf Of d. michelle hinn

>Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 7:34 PM

>To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List

>Subject: Re: [games_access] Getting Federal government. On our
side.

>

>I have all the US Senate/House/Governors email addresses so if
you

>start it and others can help edit, I can send out a press
release.

>

>We can start by raising the issue with the US government because
I

>have those addresses but as Barrie suggested -- why limit this
to

>just the US?

>

>I'm not sure how successful it will be but we haven't tried it
and
>with the right tone it's worth a shot
-- if anything it never hurts

>to remind the US government who often tries to outlaw gaming
after

>this and that happens that games are important and not all bad.
I'm

>always happy to contribute to that approach!

>

>Michelle

>

>>Robert, if you kick start it, and get it going - I'll support
you

>>and so will others. Why not

>>start by building an on-line petition - I'm sure there's more
than just me

>>here that would be happy to proof read it and add suggestions
before

>>it goes live.

>>

>>Take a look here:

>>

>>http://www.petitiononline.com/

>>http://www.petitiononline.com/Captions/petition.html

>>

>>I too don't know how successful this approach will be - but
none of us

will

>>know for sure unless it's tried.

>>

>>At the very least, it can burble away in the background -
building support

>>for us in numbers. Perhaps we could all point people in its
direction if

it

>>says things we are mostly happy with? I'd like it to be a bit
more

>>international in scope, so I'd love to see an intro paragraph
with links

to

>>translated versions in other languages.

>>

>>Go for it, Robert!

>>

>>Barrie

>  >www.OneSwitch.org.uk

>>

>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert
Florio"

><arthit73 at cablespeed.com>

>>To: "'IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List'"
<games_access at igda.org>

>>Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 7:41 PM

>>Subject: Re: [games_access] Getting Federal government. On our
side.

>>

>>>I'm actually proposing how many of us want to and can help
to send

letters

>>>to important people like senators, independent game
developers, to get

>>>petitions signed, and send it to some senators to get some
kind of

>>>nationwide talk on this and finally a regulated necessity
standard?

>>>

>>>I think it's a very good and noble thing to do. 
Thinking of it in a way

>>>that it's an industry that has ignored and does not have
any future plans

>>>for any big deals for accessibility for people. 
Especially in the United

>>>States is our Constitution write to have fair access to
all forms of

>>>entertainment.  To not allow people access to their
product is

>>>discrimination.

>>>

>>>Again this is something I have proposed before nobody said
they wanted to

>>>work on it and I don't know why it seems like a great
thing to do.  Stand

>>>up

>>>for our rights that's what the government is there to help
us to

>>>especially

>>>in a billion-dollar industry making millions and millions
but ignoring

the

>>>rest seems wrong.

>>>

>>>Robert

>>>

>>>_______________________________________________

>>>games_access mailing list

>>>games_access at igda.org

>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access

>>

>>

>>

>>_______________________________________________

>>games_access mailing list

>>games_access at igda.org

>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access

>

>_______________________________________________

>games_access mailing list

>games_access at igda.org

>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access

>

>_______________________________________________

>games_access mailing list

>games_access at igda.org

>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access



_______________________________________________

games_access mailing list

games_access at igda.org

http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access



_______________________________________________

games_access mailing list

games_access at igda.org

http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access




_________________________________________________________________
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From reid at rbkdesign.com  Sun Dec 16 12:43:52 2007
From: reid at rbkdesign.com (Reid Kimball)
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 09:43:52 -0800
Subject: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!
In-Reply-To: <005d01c83fdc$6592be90$6402a8c0@Delletje>
References: <p0623091ac389ed7eef67@130.126.29.12>
	<00e601c83f7d$06a026c0$6402a8c0@Delletje>
	<a6673b8d0712151825s21e44c28ue24f9c6d49082014@mail.gmail.com>
	<002f01c83fdb$3b9fdf60$6402a8c0@Delletje>
	<005d01c83fdc$6592be90$6402a8c0@Delletje>
Message-ID: <a6673b8d0712160943k1e1220bdg4eb4ec6997464307@mail.gmail.com>

It's not clear to me how many USB slots are available for use after
everything is setup, but similar to Eleke's 5th person idea is that
the paraplegic gamer uses his drums as usual and then a 5th person
uses a normal console controller to activate the kick pedal with
whatever button they want.

Yes, as Michelle mentioned, if the player wants to play alone, then
the kick pedal will need to be used in some other way. Has anyone
mentioned using the cameras that the consoles use? It may be possible
for the camera to recognize head motions. Think of a "virtual" kick
pedal being to the right of a players head and anytime they want to
use it, they tilt their head right.

I personally don't worry about head thrashing, I think players have
the willpower to control that if they understand their head can help
them use the kick pedal. Depending on the position of the virtual kick
pedal (aka head bang pedal) they could still have a lot of free head
movement.

-Reid

On Dec 16, 2007 4:08 AM, AudioGames.net <richard at audiogames.net> wrote:
> Which, by the way, could be the start of RapBand*, consisting of one Human
> Beatbox-controller, a turntable-controller and 2 mics :)
>
>
> *Babes, Bling and Cars not included
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "AudioGames.net" <richard at audiogames.net>
> To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
>
> Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 1:00 PM
> Subject: Re: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!
>
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > You don't really need to "blow" into a mic to trigger it. Simple whisper
> > the right letter (anything with "P" will do - that's why plop-filters were
> > invented), maybe add a noise gate and it'll work as a trigger.
> >
> > Greets,
> >
> > Richard
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Reid Kimball" <reid at rbkdesign.com>
> > To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
> > Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 3:25 AM
> > Subject: Re: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!
> >
> >
> >> This is a difficult problem to solve. I think in the future a sip/puff
> >> mechanism should be considered. Rock Band 2: On Tour or whatever it
> >> will be called could ship with headset microphones for everyone, or
> >> why couldn't players use their current gaming headsets? You wear it,
> >> assuming it's snug enough to stay on with the head thrashing and blow
> >> into it to use the kick pedal.
> >>
> >> Other than that, I say give the players what they want, if they are
> >> requesting that the kick stand action be automatic, best to do that in
> >> a future patch.
> >>
> >> I think people who are new to games and not technically disabled will
> >> benefit from game modes that automate difficult actions, such as EA's
> >> Family Play controls for their Wii sports games.
> >>
> >> -Reid
> >>
> >> On Dec 15, 2007 4:45 PM, AudioGames.net <richard at audiogames.net> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Great question!
> >>>
> >>> First thing to jump to mind is to do something with the gamer's
> >>> mouth/vocal
> >>> options because it's free and available. Two ideas would then be either
> >>> some
> >>> very simple bite/sip/puff controller or a very simple head mic-setup (of
> >>> course you need to be careful in a room full of sound with placing
> >>> mics). A
> >>> sip/puff/bite controller has the issue of hygiene which can be a pretty
> >>> big
> >>> problem. If so, go for the mic (which is simple hardware as well). The
> >>> only
> >>> thing you need from either the mic or the sip/puff/bite controller is a
> >>> trigger of some sort. A player would then use his arms for the standard
> >>> hi-hat/snare/toms/riot/crashes/cowbell-stuff, and "sing" the kick:
> >>> "boom"+hihat > hihat > hihat+snare > "boomboom"+hihat > etc. A benefit
> >>> of
> >>> this solution is that I think it can actually add to the fun of the
> >>> game.
> >>> The drummers in the bands I used to play in were always the types of
> >>> guys
> >>> who would always mimic what they were playing with their voice:
> >>> "boom-tjak-ka-boomboom-tjakcrash"- that sort of thing (especially in the
> >>> bar
> >>> after practice ;).  Also, when synced with samples of a kick-drum,
> >>> gamers
> >>> might be awed, thinking it is really cool to "boom" in a mic and hear a
> >>> kickdrum from the machine ;) It might even turned out to make the game a
> >>> bit
> >>> easier... ? Alex, is there is a lot of double kickdrum in there?
> >>>
> >>> Greets,
> >>>
> >>> Richard
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "d. michelle hinn" <hinn at uiuc.edu>
> >>> To: <games_access at igda.org>
> >>> Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 12:30 AM
> >>> Subject: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> > Hey everyone,
> >>> >
> >>> > So I've been talking to the CEO of Harmonix about Accessibility and
> >>> > "Rock
> >>> > Band." If you haven't yet seen it (ie, you were definitely not at a
> >>> > booth
> >>> > right across from them at E for All!) -- Harmonix was also behind
> >>> > Guitar
> >>> > Hero 1, 2, and 80s but then they spun that off to focus on Rock Band
> >>> > (which works with up to two guitars, a drum kit, and a mic). Right now
> >>> > it's available (USB wired) for Xbox 360, (wireless --
> >>> > I think...) for PS3, and then (wired again) for PS2 (they have a USB
> >>> > hub
> >>> > that plugs into the USB slot to allow for 4 separate USB devices).
> >>> >
> >>> > Here's the situation from Alex:
> >>> >
> >>> > "One obvious thing that has already become apparent in the forums is
> >>> > that
> >>> > there's a demand among
> >>> > paraplegic gamers for a mode of the drumming game in Rock Band that
> >>> > doesn't require the kick pedal."
> >>> >
> >>> > I was thinking about hardware solutions that might work, that perhaps
> >>> > a
> >>> > set of drumsticks that has some kind of squeeze mechanism might work
> >>> > but
> >>> > that might be tough to pull off while you are drumming. Having the
> >>> > foot
> >>> > pedal in as a hat sensor would be difficult for those who want to
> >>> > "ROCK!"
> >>> > (hehe...head banging). The thing is that there are times when you have
> >>> > to
> >>> > hit the drum pads with both sticks and the foot pedal all at the same
> >>> > time...so simply not using the pedal is not an option if you want to
> >>> > progress through the game.
> >>> >
> >>> > One thing for sure is the drums? It's the toughest thing on Rock
> >>> > Band -- I
> >>> > brought it to a party last night and we had three people playing as
> >>> > "the
> >>> > drummer" at the same time in order to avoid our "band" from getting
> >>> > kicked
> >>> > off stage again and again -- even then the point difference between
> >>> > the
> >>> > guitar and vocal versus the drums...guitar and vocal were in the 80s
> >>> > and
> >>> > 90s/100 on "easy" and drums got to about as high as 60/100 also on
> >>> > "easy."
> >>> > And this was from people who had never played Sing Star or Guitar Hero
> >>> > on
> >>> > the other instruments. So there's some balance issues that are coupled
> >>> > along with it.
> >>> >
> >>> > So I'm thinking that a mode that didn't involve the kick pedal might
> >>> > be
> >>> > more attractive in general...perhaps as some sort of patch (harder
> >>> > with
> >>> > consoles if you don't have it hooked up to the net but they might be
> >>> > willing to send out a patch on a game disk for free or the cost of
> >>> > shipping and handling). Or it might just be a "for the next version"
> >>> > kind
> >>> > of thing.
> >>> >
> >>> > But can anything be done NOW with regard to a hardware alternative for
> >>> > this version of Rock Band that has just come out? If there is a
> >>> > software
> >>> > solution, what would we need access to in order to implement
> >>> > something?
> >>> >
> >>> > Thoughts? We have their attention! We might be able to really
> >>> > influence
> >>> > this game. Certainly I'll make Alex aware of Eelke's design solution
> >>> > for
> >>> > Guitar Hero for the visually impaired. But this is a rare direct
> >>> > opportunity for us to work with a major game company on current and
> >>> > future
> >>> > versions of this so we can get an inside look at what it takes to
> >>> > implement any one solution in a company. If it works out, this gives
> >>> > us
> >>> > some "street cred" as a group and be able to talk about the process
> >>> > at,
> >>> > say, next year's GDC with them.
> >>> >
> >>> > Hey, it could happen -- this is the CEO we're talking to!
> >>> >
> >>> > Michelle
> >>> > _______________________________________________
> >>> > games_access mailing list
> >>> > games_access at igda.org
> >>> > http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> games_access mailing list
> >>> games_access at igda.org
> >>> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
> >>>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> games_access mailing list
> >> games_access at igda.org
> >> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > games_access mailing list
> > games_access at igda.org
> > http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>


From jbannick at 7128.com  Sun Dec 16 12:58:01 2007
From: jbannick at 7128.com (John Bannick)
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 12:58:01 -0500
Subject: [games_access] 9+1 Key Points
Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.2.20071216125451.01dbb998@enigami.com>

Richard,

Your 9+1 Key Points grid is great!

It's succinct and contains a bunch of useful, well organized information 
that developers can actually use.

A couple of specifics we plan to incorporate into our 2008 plan are: Dwell 
Clicking and some kind of Close Captioning (as opposed to just video 
subtitles) We'd never heard of the CC duration issue.

Your grid has been useful in improving our terminology. We have our "Idle 
Twit" feature: a very limited tutorial that pops up when a game has been 
idle for 1 minute. Having the term Tutorial Agent for that feature is 
useful when communicating with people outside our company.

Your Item #6, Experience Compensation, is supported by Rosie, one of our 
blind playtesters, who demanded "Ear Candy" just as sighted players want 
Eye Candy. As a result, we added ambient and incidental sounds related to 
the various games. They've gotten a real nice reception from our blind gamers.

Re Item #5 and Assisted Play Modes. I'm personally very strongly of the 
opinion that a better solution is to have a single mode that works for 
everyone.

This requires a lot more design thought, practical experience, and 
iterative input from actual users. But it results in much less code, much 
fewer things to break, much less testing time, and a more understandable 
user interface.

Which is not to say that a single UI mode would not have user-settable 
switches to turn various accessibility features on and off.

And that being said, we do use the Easy button, which simplifies each game. 
So maybe we are using modalities. Hmmm....

Re Item #8, Output Rendering. I'm also of the opinion that KISS trumps 
customization. Or more specifically, even though people say they want more 
customization, they have a limited tolerance for a multiplicity of options.

The poster child for this was the pagination software I built for the New 
York Times. Literally every command was customizable; customer demands! As 
a consequence, the product took longer to enhance, debug, and support; oh, 
and cost more.

Some sort of marginal analysis is appropriate here.

In any event, you did a fine job with your 9+1 Key Points.
Grids like this are something we can actually apply to product.

John Bannick
CTO
7-128 Software
  



From hinn at uiuc.edu  Sun Dec 16 14:09:39 2007
From: hinn at uiuc.edu (d. michelle hinn)
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 13:09:39 -0600
Subject: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!
In-Reply-To: <a6673b8d0712160943k1e1220bdg4eb4ec6997464307@mail.gmail.com>
References: <p0623091ac389ed7eef67@130.126.29.12>
	<00e601c83f7d$06a026c0$6402a8c0@Delletje>
	<a6673b8d0712151825s21e44c28ue24f9c6d49082014@mail.gmail.com>
	<002f01c83fdb$3b9fdf60$6402a8c0@Delletje>
	<005d01c83fdc$6592be90$6402a8c0@Delletje>
	<a6673b8d0712160943k1e1220bdg4eb4ec6997464307@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <p06230900c38b27d1ffc2@[130.126.29.12]>

Reid said

>I personally don't worry about head thrashing, I think players have
>the willpower to control that if they understand their head can help
>them use the kick pedal. Depending on the position of the virtual kick
>pedal (aka head bang pedal) they could still have a lot of free head
>movement.

I think it's not so much about willpower as wanting to thrash/rock. 
:) If that's the key to playing, however, then, yeah people will not 
allow themselves to do that.

Michelle


From hinn at uiuc.edu  Sun Dec 16 14:22:59 2007
From: hinn at uiuc.edu (d. michelle hinn)
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 13:22:59 -0600
Subject: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!
In-Reply-To: <003c01c83fdb$e912f2e0$6402a8c0@Delletje>
References: <p0623091ac389ed7eef67@130.126.29.12><00e601c83f7d$06a026c0$6402a8c0@Delle
	tje><a6673b8d0712151825s21e44c28ue24f9c6d49082014@mail.gmail.com>
	<f2235baa0712152107t5faa9f8fl2867c819925c7f1f@mail.gmail.com>
	<003c01c83fdb$e912f2e0$6402a8c0@Delletje>
Message-ID: <p06230901c38b28e94161@[130.126.29.18]>

The game does automate things -- sometimes some of the pads are the 
cymbals and sometimes the toms but the player doesn't control that. 
And, no, you can't do rim shots -- it's not that sensitive.

So the scenario for the player is often having to hit two pads PLUS 
the pedal all at the same time.

Alex said that there's no way Viacom (their owner will NOT give us 
access to the source code) BUT for the hardware/alt controller peeps 
he could send a few kits for someone to hack into/remap things. Now 
don't everyone send me a request for a kit if you aren't a 
hardware/software solutions guru. I know this poses a problem for 
those in Europe (although...have they localized? Do you guys have 
Rock Band available for the PAL consoles?). I can do testing here 
with my kit as needed with students when they return from break.

Here's what Alex added when I mentioned the source code access:

"However, I wonder if there's another solution. If the work you're 
trying to do is on the hardware interface level, you could remap 
alternate hardware interfaces onto our standard mappings all in 
electronics. It's
more of a pain in the ass than in code, but nonetheless totally 
doable. (Depends, of course, on what you're trying to accomplish.)"

Michelle

>Hi,
>
>*quote*
>... but one of the pads might be a pain to hit simultaneously with 
>another one.
>*quote end*
>
>I was wondering whether or not the pads allow for rim-shots and that 
>sort of thing. Does anyone know? I did some drumming on an 
>electronic Yamaha drumkit but if I remember correctly, things like 
>rimshots could not be done. If it can, one could trigger the 
>kickdrum by simply hitting the pads in a different manner.
>
>Greets,
>
>Richard
>
>
>
>>
>>I've only played the original GH briefly - do these games identify the
>>different players at the start of the game?  Tying such settings to
>>individual users/names would be nice, so that if you're taking turns
>>it'd automatically reconfigure itself for each person once those
>>configurations are set and keep the accounts/configurations around as
>>options for future gaming sessions.
>>
>>As far as hardware - if they provided a way to use a generic
>>controller instead of the custom ones (e.g. use a standard gamepad
>>instead of the guitar for instance, where the whammy bar became the
>>joystick), and in software allowed for remapping of the generic
>>controller's inputs and to the expected inputs of the custom
>>controller, then that should allow people to use things like the
>>QuadControl.com's controller to play, wouldn't it? Anything
>>excessively hard to do with such a controller could be switched to
>>"automatic mode" in the software? Making these configurations also
>>per-user as above would be nice as well.
>>
>>Cheers,
>>Mike
>>
>>On Dec 15, 2007 8:25 PM, Reid Kimball <reid at rbkdesign.com> wrote:
>>>This is a difficult problem to solve. I think in the future a sip/puff
>>>mechanism should be considered. Rock Band 2: On Tour or whatever it
>>>will be called could ship with headset microphones for everyone, or
>>>why couldn't players use their current gaming headsets? You wear it,
>>>assuming it's snug enough to stay on with the head thrashing and blow
>>>into it to use the kick pedal.
>>>
>>>Other than that, I say give the players what they want, if they are
>>>requesting that the kick stand action be automatic, best to do that in
>>>a future patch.
>>>
>>>I think people who are new to games and not technically disabled will
>>>benefit from game modes that automate difficult actions, such as EA's
>>>Family Play controls for their Wii sports games.
>>>
>>>-Reid
>>>
>>>
>>>On Dec 15, 2007 4:45 PM, AudioGames.net <richard at audiogames.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>  Great question!
>>>>
>>>>  First thing to jump to mind is to do something with the 
>>>>gamer's > mouth/vocal
>>>>  options because it's free and available. Two ideas would then be 
>>>>either > some
>>>>  very simple bite/sip/puff controller or a very simple head mic-setup > (of
>>>>  course you need to be careful in a room full of sound with 
>>>>placing > mics). A
>>>  > sip/puff/bite controller has the issue of hygiene which can be 
>>>a pretty > big
>>>>  problem. If so, go for the mic (which is simple hardware as 
>>>>well). The > only
>>>>  thing you need from either the mic or the sip/puff/bite controller is a
>>>>  trigger of some sort. A player would then use his arms for the standard
>>>>  hi-hat/snare/toms/riot/crashes/cowbell-stuff, and "sing" the kick:
>>>>  "boom"+hihat > hihat > hihat+snare > "boomboom"+hihat > etc. A 
>>>>benefit > of
>>>>  this solution is that I think it can actually add to the fun of 
>>>>the > game.
>>>>  The drummers in the bands I used to play in were always the 
>>>>types of > guys
>>>>  who would always mimic what they were playing with their voice:
>>>>  "boom-tjak-ka-boomboom-tjakcrash"- that sort of thing 
>>>>(especially in > the bar
>>>>  after practice ;).  Also, when synced with samples of a 
>>>>kick-drum, > gamers
>>>>  might be awed, thinking it is really cool to "boom" in a mic and hear a
>>>>  kickdrum from the machine ;) It might even turned out to make 
>>>>the game > a bit
>>>>  easier... ? Alex, is there is a lot of double kickdrum in there?
>>>>
>>>>  Greets,
>>>>
>>>>  Richard
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  ----- Original Message -----
>>>>  From: "d. michelle hinn" <hinn at uiuc.edu>
>>>>  To: <games_access at igda.org>
>>>>  Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 12:30 AM
>>>>  Subject: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  > Hey everyone,
>>>>  >
>>>>  > So I've been talking to the CEO of Harmonix about 
>>>>Accessibility and > > "Rock
>>>>  > Band." If you haven't yet seen it (ie, you were definitely not 
>>>>at a > > booth
>>>>  > right across from them at E for All!) -- Harmonix was also 
>>>>behind > > Guitar
>>>>  > Hero 1, 2, and 80s but then they spun that off to focus on Rock Band
>>>>  > (which works with up to two guitars, a drum kit, and a mic). 
>>>>Right > > now
>>>>  > it's available (USB wired) for Xbox 360, (wireless --
>>>>  > I think...) for PS3, and then (wired again) for PS2 (they have 
>>>>a USB > > hub
>>>>  > that plugs into the USB slot to allow for 4 separate USB devices).
>>>>  >
>>>>  > Here's the situation from Alex:
>>>>  >
>>>>  > "One obvious thing that has already become apparent in the 
>>>>forums is > > that
>>>>  > there's a demand among
>>>>  > paraplegic gamers for a mode of the drumming game in Rock Band that
>>>>  > doesn't require the kick pedal."
>>>>  >
>>>>  > I was thinking about hardware solutions that might work, that 
>>>>perhaps > > a
>>>>  > set of drumsticks that has some kind of squeeze mechanism 
>>>>might work > > but
>>>>  > that might be tough to pull off while you are drumming. Having 
>>>>the > > foot
>>>>  > pedal in as a hat sensor would be difficult for those who want 
>>>>to > > "ROCK!"
>>>>  > (hehe...head banging). The thing is that there are times when 
>>>>you > > have to
>>>>  > hit the drum pads with both sticks and the foot pedal all at the same
>>>>  > time...so simply not using the pedal is not an option if you want to
>>>>  > progress through the game.
>>>>  >
>>>>  > One thing for sure is the drums? It's the toughest thing on 
>>>>Rock > > Band -- I
>>>>  > brought it to a party last night and we had three people 
>>>>playing as > > "the
>>>>  > drummer" at the same time in order to avoid our "band" from 
>>>>getting > > kicked
>>>>  > off stage again and again -- even then the point difference 
>>>>between > > the
>>>>  > guitar and vocal versus the drums...guitar and vocal were in 
>>>>the 80s > > and
>>>>  > 90s/100 on "easy" and drums got to about as high as 60/100 
>>>>also on > > "easy."
>>>>  > And this was from people who had never played Sing Star or 
>>>>Guitar > > Hero on
>>>>  > the other instruments. So there's some balance issues that 
>>>>are > > coupled
>>>>  > along with it.
>>>>  >
>>>>  > So I'm thinking that a mode that didn't involve the kick pedal 
>>>>might > > be
>>>>  > more attractive in general...perhaps as some sort of patch 
>>>>(harder > > with
>>>>  > consoles if you don't have it hooked up to the net but they might be
>>>>  > willing to send out a patch on a game disk for free or the cost of
>>>>  > shipping and handling). Or it might just be a "for the next 
>>>>version" > > kind
>>>>  > of thing.
>>>>  >
>>>>  > But can anything be done NOW with regard to a hardware 
>>>>alternative > > for
>>>>  > this version of Rock Band that has just come out? If there is 
>>>>a > > software
>>>>  > solution, what would we need access to in order to 
>>>>implement > > something?
>>>>  >
>>>  > > Thoughts? We have their attention! We might be able to 
>>>really > > influence
>>>>  > this game. Certainly I'll make Alex aware of Eelke's design 
>>>>solution > > for
>>>>  > Guitar Hero for the visually impaired. But this is a rare direct
>>>>  > opportunity for us to work with a major game company on 
>>>>current and > > future
>>>>  > versions of this so we can get an inside look at what it takes to
>>>>  > implement any one solution in a company. If it works out, this 
>>>>gives > > us
>>>>  > some "street cred" as a group and be able to talk about the 
>>>>process > > at,
>>>>  > say, next year's GDC with them.
>>>>  >
>>>>  > Hey, it could happen -- this is the CEO we're talking to!
>>>>  >
>>>>  > Michelle
>>>>  > _______________________________________________
>>>>  > games_access mailing list
>>>>  > games_access at igda.org
>>>>  > http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>>
>>>>  _______________________________________________
>>>>  games_access mailing list
>>>>  games_access at igda.org
>>>>  http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>games_access mailing list
>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>games_access mailing list
>>games_access at igda.org
>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access



From hinn at uiuc.edu  Sun Dec 16 14:55:42 2007
From: hinn at uiuc.edu (d. michelle hinn)
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 13:55:42 -0600
Subject: [games_access] Getting Federal government.  On our side.
In-Reply-To: <BAY135-W27E8693A480E1BFFA9D3A7D9610@phx.gbl>
References: <003701c834d4$043173c0$0202a8c0@oneswitch>AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIzkPCwA
	<005401c8351b$59e1f9b0$6501a8c0@Inspiron><001501c8351f$2a45b990$0202a8c0@o
	neswitch>
	AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIykQSwA<008201c83544$ea1a75b0$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
	AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIxkQiwA
	<008a01c8354c$3c4c0220$6501a8c0@Inspiron> 
	<p0623090fc3792b11ceb6@[130.126.29.70]>
	<BAY135-W27E8693A480E1BFFA9D3A7D9610@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <p06230902c38b2c641264@[130.126.29.18]>

Hi Matthias,

I think we're all in agreement with regard to not going down the law 
path -- there's too many bad lessons to be learned from the law 
regarding other media. We have to be informed by media law -- there 
are too many legal deadlocks just with regard to captioning in movie 
theatres. We were having an exercise in free speech and discussing 
strategies for helping more games become accessible to more. There's 
nothing wrong with discussing it and we should discuss it -- sooner 
or later someone WILL find a legal route to go through and start a 
lawsuit. We have to be prepared for this possibility and know how we 
can help the industry through solutions so that these suits could be 
dropped WHEN it happens. And it will happen...sadly, it's inevitable 
the way things are in the US. The more we are informed about how 
different governments handle things the better we can help the 
industry avoid it.

We aren't the ones with the bandwidth or group purpose to draft a law 
-- this is the domain of politically connected organizations that 
represent different disabilities. But we CAN earn more commitment 
from the industry in "honorable ways" as you pointed out. Take, for 
example, how we are currently discussing solutions for "Rock Band" -- 
here's the CEO who wants to help with a game already shipped but 
would be someone who could help advertise "hey, here's some ways to 
play if you have "x" limitation." And then it might be that some of 
these things get put into the next version. If we can get more people 
in positions of power in companies behind us then we are going to be 
stronger for it.

I'm not sure I agree with a wholesale statement like "games aren't 
meant for everyone to begin with" -- I think more in terms of "we may 
never be able to create a game that is going to be fun AND accessible 
for everyone."

Schools are an entirely different issue -- a game used in a school in 
the US is required to have a "reasonable accommodation." But what is 
reasonable when you compare to the richness of a gaming environment? 
Not an easy question to answer because even a book for some is not 
accessible.

Not sure I agree with "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of a 
few" being entirely representative of the US -- depends on where you 
are on the political scheme of things. :) And how much you agree with 
Mr. Spock from Star Trek. ;)

Michelle

>Getting a law passed should be an issue dropped from the SIG.  The 
>bottom line is that games aren't meant for everyone to begin with. 
>Nothing is.
>
>Influence through inspiration is an honorable way to meet the SIG's 
>goals.  Forcing its hand by law is condemnable.  The former may not 
>be the most effective, but the latter doesn't consider for one 
>second that everything this SIG stands for MIGHT BE "WRONG".  On a 
>social level accessibility *might* be a nice accomplishment.  How 
>about from other perspectives?  Entertainment?  Art?  Creative 
>freedom?  I enjoy designing accessible games on an 
>independent/"hobbyist" basis, but I cringe to think what forced 
>accessibility would do (or not do) on a grand scale.  I'll reserve 
>my "what if" statements.
>
>The only place accessibility may have a legal leg to stand on is in 
>a public school setting.  Are most people with special needs able to 
>attend public schools (bad question - as there is such a large range 
>of disabilities)?  Does it impede the progress of able bodies? 
>Remember - in America - "The needs of the MANY outweigh the needs of 
>a few" or so it's believed.  Are American children under-performing 
>because the top 50% of students are being held back by laws, goals, 
>and actions focused on the bottom 50% (I'm not assuming disabled 
>people are "dumb", but most are "under-performing" by definition 
>that they don't have tools needed to maximize potential)?  We can't 
>be educated enough to know.  As wide a range of accessibility 
>features there could be for different disabilities there are 
>different points of view of how a law may have a positive or 
>negative impact on the very society [able-bodied inclusive] this 
>group is trying to help.  So, please continue to inspire, and please 
>keep this out of reach from the law.
>
>
>
>
>
>Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 22:24:04 -0600
>To: games_access at igda.org
>From: hinn at uiuc.edu
>Subject: Re: [games_access] Getting Federal government. On our side.
>
>.ExternalClass blockquote, .ExternalClass dl, .ExternalClass ul, 
>.ExternalClass ol, .ExternalClass li 
>{padding-top:0;padding-bottom:0;} Re: [games_access] Getting Federal 
>government. On our sid
>This is true and I definitely was not trying to discourage the 
>petition -- but when we start talking laws...we start talking about 
>lawsuits. To do that is a whole different ballgame.
>
>Movie industry captioning does fall, in part, under the Americans 
>with Disabilities Act but that ruling was in 2000 and the fight to 
>get at least seat based captioning is STILL ongoing with lawsuit 
>after lawsuit launched. The issue is that these require special 
>devices and sometimes seating that someone has to pick up the bill 
>for (who pays for that? The movie theatres? The movie industry?). 
>The other issue is captions on or below the screen -- The National 
>Association of the Deaf have been trying to get "open captioning" 
>(captions on or below the screen) of movies in theaters implemented 
>for a loooooong time now -- "open captioning" or on screen 
>captioning is NOT covered under the Americans with Disabilities Act 
>for some reason so there's ZERO incentive for the film industry to 
>do that unless they are showing a foreign language film) and there 
>are entire chains of movie theatres that do NOT provide captioning 
>-- even seat-based:
>
>http://www.nad.org/site/pp.asp?c=foINKQMBF&b=100779
>
>See also this page for more information on how the movie industry 
>has reacted (quoted from the website: "Movie studios and theaters 
>have been slow to adopt open captioning of movies by claiming that 
>open captioning causes a negative effect on box office sales." Sound 
>familiar???):
>
>http://www.nad.org/site/pp.asp?c=foINKQMBF&b=100782
>
>The above is a nice example of a position statement that is perhaps 
>more like what we want to go with regarding a petition.
>
>A tax break initiative for movie theatre chains to do provide for 
>this was introduced in the JOBS act but when the final version of 
>the law passed, this was a "rider" on the law that was not included. 
>There have also been lawsuit after lawsuit after lawsuit raised and 
>those take forever and usually get dropped for one reason or another.
>
>So perhaps what we need to do is not just get a petition going but 
>actually get groups like the National Association of the Deaf and so 
>forth involved. Because we can get every name in the game industry 
>to sign the petition but it's powerful (and politically connected) 
>groups like these that launch the lawsuits -- they have the power, 
>connections, and the money to do this.
>
>I know...this is soooo "American." It would be great if there were 
>easy and inexpensive options for the industry to implement, that it 
>was "politically correct" for a legislator to stand behind this 
>issue (remember...we are in election times...) -- the veteran issue 
>is great and I definitely use this example in talks that I give. But 
>on the flip side...games were also used to recruit so you can 
>imagine the powderkeg the senator/whoever that brings this up will 
>face. And with all the issues current candidates are having to 
>address...eeek. So once again the lawsuit issue comes up. For that? 
>We need way more power and we need the power and support of major 
>disability organizations.
>
>Note: I am in no way saying "let's launch a lawsuit NOW." In fact, 
>by even raising the issue I'm probably pissing off every developer 
>on the list. Or not. I'm only raising the issue and pointing out how 
>other advocacy groups have handled this issue of accessibility to 
>entertainment.
>
>Michelle (who on some days is tempted to go get a law degree in 
>night school...hahahahahahah...ok, seriously...I'm tired. And when 
>that happens all kinds of crazy things come to mind.)
>
>
>I know what you mean Michelle.  But the bottom line is there needs to be
>something created so that the entertainment world has a standard also.
>
>Take for example the product brought out by the movie industry.
>
>In order for their productivity listened to by people with heart hearing,
>the movie theaters themselves by law, have to provide assistance technology
>to help the people either see or hear with devices.
>
>
>To me that seems like not exactly the same thing but something similar.
>
>The game design industry also provides a product that is not equal
>opportunity to enjoy.
>
>If we can get the petition circled around then we can send it to the right
>people who know the law and who can help us voice in if they see the need,
>which will combine the most important people we can find to sign it.
>
>Even if we just get around to the people we need to sign it, and then send
>it around to officials, and nothing happens, I think it makes a very loud
>statement.  Because then it can be documented who signed it.
>
>I would imagine trying to get the key names in the industry to sign it.
>Even the employees for those companies.
>
>Not to mention sending it out to all the important institutions.
>
>On their web site for the petition web page they do say that it's
>prohibited, not allowed, to mass e-mail yourself they set it up somehow
>targeting it to the right people I'm not sure how.
>
>I do not know what that's all about.  Seems kind of crazy.
>
>Robert
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
>On Behalf Of d. michelle hinn
>Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 8:10 PM
>To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
>Subject: Re: [games_access] Getting Federal government. On our side.
>
>Well, the reality is that it can take a VERY long time for a bill to
>become a law...and even longer for something to become a bill! While
>I think we should send something to the government I think the first
>step is going to be sending something that makes them aware that this
>is even an issue.
>
>Then we probably need the help of a legislative attorney who knows
>what specific constitutional laws are being violated and in what
>instances. For instance, I'm pretty sure that there's no law that
>requires that the music industry makes all CDs sold accessible to all
>so a federal law mandating that video games are accessible to all
>seems like that's probably pretty improbable. But what about video
>game tournaments that exclude disabled gamers or a video game that's
>marketed and used in schools (that, for sure, is a violation of US
>law)?
>
>I don't mean to be discouraging -- quite the opposite. We just have
>to know what's possible and what is realistic and what can be done
>soon and what is going to take a whole lot of persistence.
>
>Michelle
>
>>Sounds great.  I'm just not sure how to tie it in a broad?  How would that
>>work?  I was suggesting that if it worked here it would become something
>>marketable that other countries with one the same stamp of approval.
>>
>>My thoughts would be if it was made into some kind of legislation who makes
>>up the ideas for ranking if it becomes accepted?
>>
>>I think the best thing is to put together the petition that I will
>>definitely start writing.  And then if we get any important representatives
>>responding they can let us know what they think the best solution would be.
>>
>>Ultimately I think it should be something we can make money from instead of
>>giving away all our ideas.  So I'm sure there will be guidelines written up
>>basic ones may be but then after that someone needs to regulate it.
>>
>>Kind of like what Hillary Clinton set up with the MSRP people.  And as they
>>might already have a branch or suggest a private branch which would be
>>better.  Maybe they would find it and give us a place to locate.  One of
>the
>>best persuasive points to put in the petition would be for the injured
>>soldiers.
>>
>>Robert
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
>>On Behalf Of d. michelle hinn
>>Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 7:34 PM
>>To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
>>Subject: Re: [games_access] Getting Federal government. On our side.
>>
>>I have all the US Senate/House/Governors email addresses so if you
>>start it and others can help edit, I can send out a press release.
>>
>>We can start by raising the issue with the US government because I
>  >have those addresses but as Barrie suggested -- why limit this to
>>just the US?
>>
>>I'm not sure how successful it will be but we haven't tried it and
>
>  >with the right tone it's worth a shot -- if anything it never hurts
>>to remind the US government who often tries to outlaw gaming after
>>this and that happens that games are important and not all bad. I'm
>>always happy to contribute to that approach!
>>
>>Michelle
>>
>>>Robert, if you kick start it, and get it going - I'll support you
>>>and so will others. Why not
>>>start by building an on-line petition - I'm sure there's more than just me
>>>here that would be happy to proof read it and add suggestions before
>>>it goes live.
>>>
>>>Take a look here:
>>>
>>>http://www.petitiononline.com/
>>>http://www.petitiononline.com/Captions/petition.html
>>>
>>>I too don't know how successful this approach will be - but none of us
>will
>>>know for sure unless it's tried.
>>>
>>>At the very least, it can burble away in the background - building support
>>>for us in numbers. Perhaps we could all point people in its direction if
>it
>>>says things we are mostly happy with? I'd like it to be a bit more
>>>international in scope, so I'd love to see an intro paragraph with links
>to
>>>translated versions in other languages.
>>>
>>>Go for it, Robert!
>>>
>>>Barrie
>>   >www.OneSwitch.org.uk
>>>
>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Florio"
>><arthit73 at cablespeed.com>
>>>To: "'IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List'" <games_access at igda.org>
>>>Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 7:41 PM
>>>Subject: Re: [games_access] Getting Federal government. On our side.
>>>
>>>>I'm actually proposing how many of us want to and can help to send
>letters
>>>>to important people like senators, independent game developers, to get
>>>>petitions signed, and send it to some senators to get some kind of
>>>>nationwide talk on this and finally a regulated necessity standard?
>>>>
>>>>I think it's a very good and noble thing to do.  Thinking of it in a way
>>>>that it's an industry that has ignored and does not have any future plans
>>>>for any big deals for accessibility for people.  Especially in the United
>>>>States is our Constitution write to have fair access to all forms of
>>>>entertainment.  To not allow people access to their product is
>>>>discrimination.
>>>>
>>>>Again this is something I have proposed before nobody said they wanted to
>>>>work on it and I don't know why it seems like a great thing to do.  Stand
>>>>up
>>>>for our rights that's what the government is there to help us to
>>>>especially
>>>>in a billion-dollar industry making millions and millions but ignoring
>the
>>>>rest seems wrong.
>>>>
>>>>Robert
>>>>
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>games_access mailing list
>>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>games_access mailing list
>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>games_access mailing list
>>games_access at igda.org
>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>games_access mailing list
>>games_access at igda.org
>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>
>
>
>Get the power of Windows + Web with the new Windows Live. 
><http://www.windowslive.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_powerofwindows_122007>Get 
>it now!
>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
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From jbannick at 7128.com  Sun Dec 16 16:48:24 2007
From: jbannick at 7128.com (John Bannick)
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 16:48:24 -0500
Subject: [games_access] GAIM 0.02 updated
In-Reply-To: <A7FE2FE6-A8D3-479D-8B26-1B3AA6505C28@pininteractive.com>
References: <A7FE2FE6-A8D3-479D-8B26-1B3AA6505C28@pininteractive.com>
Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.2.20071216164457.01e720a8@enigami.com>

Thomas,

Please help me.
I go to the link below and see the same 0.02 version I saw before.
Yet the listserve emails seem to be discussing new stuff.
How am I being stupid here?

Is the below link to your latest stuff and if so, how does it differ from 
the previous edition.
Are there additional docs besides the sonar and collision pdfs?

Thanks,

John Bannick

At 03:14 PM 12/13/2007, you wrote:
>hi
>
>yet another update of GAIM 0.02 is online at
>
>http://people.dsv.su.se/~thomasw/gaim
>
>/thomas
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>
>--
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 
>269.17.2/1184 - Release Date: 12/14/2007 11:29 AM



From jbannick at 7128.com  Sun Dec 16 17:03:15 2007
From: jbannick at 7128.com (John Bannick)
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 17:03:15 -0500
Subject: [games_access] GAIM 0.02 updated
In-Reply-To: <004201c83f20$3023b910$6402a8c0@Delletje>
References: <5667BDB5-7E5D-4E04-BEA7-A2DDAAA4D5EE@pininteractive.com>
	<011101c83c17$9f6d3d70$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
	<F2C39786-D028-4769-BFA7-4B2260826414@pininteractive.com>
	<836db6300712141546kdde4789q18d76704df1261f2@mail.gmail.com>
	<004201c83f20$3023b910$6402a8c0@Delletje>
Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.2.20071216165340.01e4fec8@enigami.com>

Richard et al,

As a developer, a combination of the three paradigms would be useful.

The requirements, guidelines, or grid (as in Richard's 9+1 grid) approach 
is useful for communicating with and influencing designers, marketers, 
product managers, and the ilk.

The widespread use of the GoF patterns proves the utility of such 
templates. As a coder, I actually use these things.

And I personally believe that the broader, more thoughtful academic 
analyses are necessary to ensure scaleability and extensibility beyond just 
this release's needs.

BTW. We're having a very similar conversation of academic vs. 
implementation models in a network security pod I'm active in.

John

At 08:41 AM 12/15/2007, you wrote:
>Hi,
>
>Well written, Eelke!
>
>*quote*
>1) some of the requirements assume absolute validity but are actually only 
>applicable in very specific contexts; take the "provide audio cues to 
>visual information". A requirement as such does not make any game 
>accessible to the blind automatically.
>2) There are too many (requirements);
>3) Another thing that I think is lacking with guidelines is that is does 
>not specify what problem it actually solves, why it works or how it can be 
>implemented.
>*quote end*
>
>I fully agree. This is why I have been so stubborn with accepting the 
>requirements/guidelines defined so far. There simply is no link with the 
>actual practical implementation. I also propose to drop the term 
>'guidelines' - which is too fixed in my opinion ;). Patterns are that link 
>to the practical, but I do think that patterns are only part of the 
>solution. At the moment (but this may change in the future) I believe a 
>healthy mix of heuristics and patterns is key. The patterns are (now), as 
>you say, of a somewhat lower level than the high level game design and 
>target software engineers. But I think it is important to target all 
>disciplines within game development. Throughout the development of a game, 
>decisions are made and it is important that for every decision that is 
>made, accessibility is taken into account. So this includes targeting the 
>high level designers (which would be targeted with "accessible game design 
>patterns"), but also lower level designers (like the interface designers 
>("accessible game interface design patterns") and the audio designers 
>("accessible audio design patterns") - which would probably overlap ;) ). 
>And even up the the marketing department ;) . I think that it is possible 
>that a game designer creates a concept for a game that is very accessible 
>because of using accessible game design patterns, and that other designers 
>do not need patterns because of this. A game idea that revolves around the 
>speech of the gamer, for instance, makes it very accessible for all sorts 
>of gamers, because there simply is no physical or gestural input needed. 
>Of course, there will always be the problem of what is accessible for one 
>is inaccessible for the other ;)
>If this is possible with patterns, than I'm all for it. I do not have that 
>much experience with patterns so far, but from what I know I get the 
>feeling there are limitations/obstacles with patterns. One is that I 
>foresee that there can be as many design patterns for game accessibility 
>as there are usability design heuristics and that number would grow as 
>time progresses. That may not be practical. I also think that not all 
>problems can be captured in patterns - or at least that it is very hard. 
>The higher level you go with defining patterns, the less simple it gets. I 
>think that a big part of game accessibility revolves around 1) input and 
>output interface problems and 2) game difficulty problems. But there is 
>still that one other part which is so hard to grab and that is the issue 
>of trying to keep the game essence in tact and keeping the game fun for 
>all while implementing different accessibility features. This requires, I 
>think, the highest level of heuristics or patterns or... .
>
>A concept I was recently introduced with and I think that may apply to 
>this all is the concept of Strategy. There's this hierarchy of (Design) 
>Goal, (Design) Objective, (Design) Strategy, (Design) Tactic and (Design) 
>Task. One has a certain Goal (for instance "make all games accessible 
>(controllable, perceivable and fun) for all players"), which is broken 
>down in a certain Objective ("make Bejeweled accessible for color-blind 
>gamers"). The Strategy is the Plan to achieve this Objective, which is 
>broken down in conceptual actions called Tactics. So a Strategy is a 
>collection of Tactics in a given context, the Objective. A Tactic is 
>implemented as one or more Tasks.
>While the theory of heuristics and patterns and guidelines is not so 
>easily transferred to this hierarchy, you might say that a Pattern 
>captures the Tactics and the Tasks. Heuristics would to, but not on a 
>practical level? However, Strategy is where one designs which route to 
>take, which Patterns/Heuristics to implement. This is decision making to 
>and I think it is important to define strategies too. For example, the 
>problem for colour blind gamers with information that is communicated with 
>colour communication, can be solved with either alternative 
>colour/contrast schemes or alternative parallel information communication, 
>such as distinctive shapes. These would be 2 patterns. A design strategy 
>would describe the problem and describe the two patterns (tactics), but 
>also discuss which pattern is best in which context. I guess you could 
>capture a strategy into a pattern too (since, how I've understood it, you 
>simply make up your own pattern language to include strategy information). 
>I consider strategy to be a path which links objectives to implementation 
>- and I think it is important to define these too.
>
>K... I wrote this very quickly and gotta go now so sorry for any vague 
>lines in there, but I'm interested to hear what you think of this and if 
>this may lead to something better or if you think this just makes it more 
>difficult.
>
>Greets,
>
>Richard
>
>
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>
>--
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 
>269.17.2/1185 - Release Date: 12/15/2007 12:00 PM



From jbannick at 7128.com  Sun Dec 16 17:40:27 2007
From: jbannick at 7128.com (John Bannick)
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 17:40:27 -0500
Subject: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News
In-Reply-To: <056801c83445$6c6fc070$0202a8c0@oneswitch>
References: <006501c8312b$82902a60$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
	<p0623090ac37223cd87e8@130.126.29.21>
	<a6673b8d0711271244m7b678e79ye94e3a7688c020e2@mail.gmail.com>
	<836db6300711300020r477e9abbldc4a6261effa5686@mail.gmail.com>
	<008701c8337d$ac6de170$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
	<p0623090fc3760c1b8d7d@130.126.29.21>
	<30EC442C-11A9-416C-BE37-0540384E8C0A@pininteractive.com>
	<000301c833bf$4c509a20$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
	<3dd2060e0711302009g3635fb8eq5a12c64cb86a5972@mail.gmail.com>
	<a6673b8d0711302326j60766890s4e63c3634b5f6bf5@mail.gmail.com>
	<003e01c83442$efbce8c0$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
	<p06230921c377514dc4fc@[130.126.29.21]>
	<056801c83445$6c6fc070$0202a8c0@oneswitch>
Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.2.20071216173934.01e6bad0@enigami.com>

Barrie,

Way cool!
For some reason I'd never heard about the blogspot.

Thanks,

John

At 01:10 PM 12/1/2007, you wrote:
>Count me in! And anyone that wishes to help with adding content to the 
>GASIG Blog - please get in touch!
>
>http://gameaccessibility.blogspot.com/
>
>Barrie
>www.OneSwitch.org.uk
>
>
>----- Original Message ----- From: "d. michelle hinn" <hinn at uiuc.edu>
>To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
>Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 5:59 PM
>Subject: Re: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News
>
>
>>Who will be a part of "We"?
>>
>>Michelle
>>
>>>Hi John.  With what you said below I think you hit the nail on the head.
>>>
>>>Then we definitely need a web site and a forum.
>>>Robert
>>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
>>>On Behalf Of John Bannick
>>>Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 11:05 AM
>>>To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
>>>Subject: Re: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News
>>>
>>>Reid is right.
>>>
>>>There are developers right now who want their work to be accessible.
>>>
>>>This SIG could right now facilitate that by:
>>>
>>>1. Providing, distributing, and publicizing a concise, specific set of
>>>functional criteria that define what means accessible.
>>>2. Compiling, publishing, and publicizing an annual list of which companies
>>>and games meet those criteria.
>>>3. Maintaining a forum (The currently rather drifting Game Accessibility
>>>Project comes to mind) where developers can go for immediate help.
>>>
>>>I'm a developer of games that are accessible.
>>>Have shipped 22 different revenue-generating products in a wide variety of
>>>vertical markets in the last 30 years.
>>>Am neither stupid nor lazy.
>>>And don't see any of the 3 above items.
>>>
>>>None of the 3 items should take long to build as a first cut.
>>>
>>>And if not from this SIG, then from where?
>>>
>>>John Bannick
>>>CTO
>>>7-128 Software
>>>
>>>
>>>At 02:26 AM 12/1/2007, you wrote:
>>>>Please, can we stop with the negative talk about GDC and the game
>>>>industry? I work in the game industry for LucasArts. Just last week I
>>>>talked to a highly respected programmer and he's 100% behind us and
>>>>wants to talk about what we can do to improve accessibility in our
>>>>games after our current milestone is finished. There are dozens of
>>>>people at LucasArts that support game accessibility. Nintendo totally
>>>>gets it, EA Games totally gets it with their Family Play modes in
>>>>their sports games. Peter Molyneux gets it, Will Wright... the list
>>>>goes on and on.
>>>>
>>>>It's offensive to me when people of this SIG accuse developers of not
>>>>caring because WE DO CARE. The last thing you want to do is insult the
>>>>people you have to work with. It's the quickest way to turn them away
>>>>from our cause.
>>>>
>>>>So, instead of complaining, lets do something about it! First,
>>>>everyone here needs to understand what it's like for developers and
>>>>why it's so hard for them to adopt accessibility features.
>>>>
>>>>1. Limited financial resources - Games are very expensive to make and
>>>>any new features adds to the cost. Before you can add accessibility
>>>>features you must have a game and that's where most of the money is
>>>>spent first.
>>>>
>>>>2. Limited time - Game development is incredibly complex and hard to
>>>>tame. No matter how much extra time gets budgeted into the production
>>>>schedule, it always runs out well before all tasks are complete. When
>>>>this happens, features get cut in order to save the core of the game
>>>>and again, without a game, there can't be any accessibility features.
>>>>Because this usually happens so late, there isn't enough time to work
>>>>on accessibility features before the game has to ship.
>>>>
>>>>3. Limited information - Even if a developer was pro-active and
>>>>scheduled the development of accessibility features into the games'
>>>>development schedule, there's still a major lack of knowledge and
>>>>tools that enable them to do their job. The SIG has been thinking
>>>>about accessibility features for years and we have all the solutions,
>>>>but developers don't yet. We need to make ourselves known and readily
>>>>available to help them.
>>>>
>>>>What can we do to solve these issues? We need to develop our
>>>>relationships with developers and offer our assistance. Our attempts
>>>>to work with GarageGames is a good start. When a new game is announced
>>>>we should contact them and offer our expertise.
>>>>
>>>>We have GOT to get a website up so that we can communicate our
>>>>abilities and expertise to our target audiences (game developers).
>>>>
>>>>But there are technical issues and many of us are volunteers and so
>>>  >things move very slowly.
>>>>
>>>>Several of us are writing guidelines for implementing certain features
>>>>but again, this is a slow process. Others are doing research. Going to
>>>>conferences is awesome. Writing articles to Gamasutra is great as
>>>>well.
>>>>
>>>>Eitan is right, we have to "sell" our expertise. It's not that
>>>>developers don't care, they don't know that they SHOULD care.
>>>>
>>>>-Reid
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>games_access mailing list
>>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>--
>>>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>>>Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.11/1161 - Release Date:
>>>>11/30/2007 12:12 PM
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>games_access mailing list
>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>games_access mailing list
>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>games_access mailing list
>>games_access at igda.org
>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>
>--
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 
>269.16.12/1163 - Release Date: 12/1/2007 12:05 PM



From hinn at uiuc.edu  Sun Dec 16 17:42:09 2007
From: hinn at uiuc.edu (d. michelle hinn)
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 16:42:09 -0600
Subject: [games_access] GAIM 0.02 updated
In-Reply-To: <6.1.0.6.2.20071216164457.01e720a8@enigami.com>
References: <A7FE2FE6-A8D3-479D-8B26-1B3AA6505C28@pininteractive.com>
	<6.1.0.6.2.20071216164457.01e720a8@enigami.com>
Message-ID: <p06230904c38b57d03fb7@[130.126.29.18]>

Hey John --

I'm a little suspicious of there being more listserv problems, as 
people are forwarding me things that some people are getting but they 
don't get a copy like they normally do so they are asking me to post 
for them, postings coming in weird order, etc.

So you may have missed something -- just in case, check out the archives at:

http://seven.pairlist.net/pipermail/games_access/

and let me know if you see that you've missed some messages and I'll 
ping the IGDA about this.

If not, then I'm sure Thomas will be glad to catch you up on the 
latest on his project! :)

PS -- I just went to your company website (the URL finally got to me 
and I thought "what on earth is 7128.com????" (which probably works 
to your advantage because others are probably asking themselves what 
on earth does that mean? :) ) and now I understand what you meant by 
game book. I love the idea of a cooperative living/working community. 
Cool!

Michelle

>Thomas,
>
>Please help me.
>I go to the link below and see the same 0.02 version I saw before.
>Yet the listserve emails seem to be discussing new stuff.
>How am I being stupid here?
>
>Is the below link to your latest stuff and if so, how does it differ 
>from the previous edition.
>Are there additional docs besides the sonar and collision pdfs?
>
>Thanks,
>
>John Bannick
>
>At 03:14 PM 12/13/2007, you wrote:
>>hi
>>
>>yet another update of GAIM 0.02 is online at
>>
>>http://people.dsv.su.se/~thomasw/gaim
>>
>>/thomas
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>games_access mailing list
>>games_access at igda.org
>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>
>>
>>--
>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 
>>269.17.2/1184 - Release Date: 12/14/2007 11:29 AM
>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
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From jbannick at 7128.com  Sun Dec 16 17:48:32 2007
From: jbannick at 7128.com (John Bannick)
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 17:48:32 -0500
Subject: [games_access] SIG Accessibilty Guidelines
Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.2.20071216174125.01e30c50@enigami.com>

Michelle, et al,

Been away a few days killing a really bad virus attack on our systems and 
(gasp!) doing some actual coding.

It looks like Thomas' GAIM project and the associated discussion could 
eventually result is some sort of practical SIG guidelines.

Since that could take awhile (my thesis took forever) I'm going to go ahead 
on my own and try to assemble a succinct and practical set of guidelines 
for our own company.

Expect to be getting some good ideas from you folks just by monitoring 
traffic and looking at references.

Thanks,

John Bannick
CTO
7-128 Software



From jbannick at 7128.com  Sun Dec 16 18:32:13 2007
From: jbannick at 7128.com (John Bannick)
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 18:32:13 -0500
Subject: [games_access] GAIM 0.02 updated
In-Reply-To: <p06230904c38b57d03fb7@[130.126.29.18]>
References: <A7FE2FE6-A8D3-479D-8B26-1B3AA6505C28@pininteractive.com>
	<6.1.0.6.2.20071216164457.01e720a8@enigami.com>
	<p06230904c38b57d03fb7@[130.126.29.18]>
Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.2.20071216182003.01e7c3b0@enigami.com>

Michelle,

You may be on to something re the listserve.
Thomas sent something dated 15 Dec 03:24:25 EST that I have no record of 
getting.
Also, I sent an email dated 16 Dec 12:58, subject 9+1 Key Points, and never 
got a copy.
Once might be spam filtering or my fat fingers, but twice is indeed suspicious.

However, thanks eversomuch for pointing me at the archives.
Getting Thomas' 15 Dec post clears up my gap in the thread.

And thanks for pointing me at the archives.
I use the archives extensively over at Audyssey.

Now I can fish!

John

BTW The biggest benefit of the cooperative living thing is that when 
members of our family have gotten sick and died, there's been a whole group 
there to help them, and each other.  I would never want to live atomically 
again.

At 05:42 PM 12/16/2007, you wrote:
>http://seven.pairlist.net/pipermail/games_access/
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From thomas at pininteractive.com  Mon Dec 17 04:29:30 2007
From: thomas at pininteractive.com (Thomas Westin)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 10:29:30 +0100
Subject: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!
In-Reply-To: <20071216023137.AZG77925@expms2.cites.uiuc.edu>
References: <20071216023137.AZG77925@expms2.cites.uiuc.edu>
Message-ID: <A5950742-4004-4E6C-9CB0-530A23F54808@pininteractive.com>

how about using a Cyberlink to control the pedal input; simply mapping  
it to raising eyebrows for instance

/Thomas

16 dec 2007 kl. 09.31 skrev <hinn at uiuc.edu> <hinn at uiuc.edu>:

> Hey --
>
> The main issue is that they cannot use the foot pedal but they can  
> use the drum pad (the other four inputs) using the drum sticks --  
> they are paraplegic and not quadriplegic...although Harmonix would  
> like to know solution ideas for quadriplegic gamers as well!
>
> I have asked to see if we could get into the source code if we sign  
> away our lives -- worst case he just says "no way." And that's cool.  
> I can understand keeping the code close to the vest. Doesn't hurt to  
> propose it though.
>
> At the party I was at last night, it took 2-3 people without  
> mobility disabilities to play the drum on "easy" mode. So add in any  
> mobility disability and it's even tougher!
>
> Another thing to think about is solo practice -- you can go through  
> the game just playing the drum with AI players. So there is a loss  
> of independence for paraplegic gamers who would have to get a friend  
> to "drum" with them. So they get used to each other's cues and  
> styles...what happens at a party when the friend might not be there  
> and a "substitute" second person is needed. It's not absolutely  
> critical but it can get annoying to get used to someone else who is  
> essentially a part of your "skills" package -- after all, a lot of  
> (most?) people practice on their own so that they can keep up with  
> and/or beat the crap out of their fellow game players.  
> Yeah...rockband IS about collaboration...but...when the scores came  
> up, there was always clearly "the winner." :)
>
> Did I mention that I think this discussion is really cool? ;)
>
> Michelle
>
> ---- Original message ----
>> Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 00:10:01 -0800
>> From: "Eelke Folmer" <eelke.folmer at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!
>> To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org 
>> >
>>
>> Hey,
>>
>> Interesting problem, maybe a viable strategy would be to find the
>> gross or lowest denominator of the amount of interaction that a
>> paraplegic could provide; e.g. if this is a one switch you obviously
>> have a hard time providing five different inputs. Some amount of
>> interaction has to go or be automated.
>>
>> I assume we will not be able to modify the existing source code and
>> hence a solution must be found in the hardware. If you want to
>> automate particular drum beats there is no way to get this  
>> information
>> through a controller unless you would be using a videocamera that
>> would monitor the screen to see which buttons need to be pressed.
>>
>> I propose a simple solution:
>>
>> just splitting up the drums (physically) into a part (1-5) drums that
>> can be played by a paraplegic and the other part (1-5) shall be  
>> played
>> by another human. You need 4 people anyway so finding a 5th should  
>> not
>> be a problem. If the paraplegic is unable to drum but can only use  
>> sip
>> and puff i would suggest splitting up the controller for the drums in
>> a sipp and puff part and the remaining drum parts.
>>
>> Cheers Eelke
>>
>> On 15/12/2007, d. michelle hinn <hinn at uiuc.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Hey Mike --
>>>
>>>
>>> The automation of inputs sounds like an excellent idea.  I think  
>>> you'd
>>> want it generic and per-input though and be clear that it's not  
>>> *just*
>>> the foot pedal that could be problematic. e.g. Def Leopard's Rick
>>> Allen could easily handle the bass pedal (and a few more), but one  
>>> of
>>> the pads might be a pain to hit simultaneously with another one.
>>>
>>>
>>> Yep, I was thinking about Rick Allen -- I'll have to do some  
>>> surfing to give
>>> them some links on how drummers with mobility disabilities and  
>>> amputees
>>> trick out their drum kits for their own personal situation. That  
>>> might give
>>> Rock Band another source for information (actually...I'm wondering  
>>> if we
>>> could get Rick Allen in on the accessible drum kit? I know that  
>>> the Harmonix
>>> guys know some of the band contacts. I'm serious! How cool would  
>>> that be to
>>> be able to buy a special edition Rick Allen controller that could be
>>> reconfigured to work with switches and so forth? For info on his  
>>> custom kit:
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Allen_%28drummer%29
>>>
>>>
>>> I've only played the original GH briefly - do these games identify  
>>> the
>>> different players at the start of the game?  Tying such settings to
>>> individual users/names would be nice, so that if you're taking turns
>>> it'd automatically reconfigure itself for each person once those
>>> configurations are set and keep the accounts/configurations around  
>>> as
>>> options for future gaming sessions.
>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, you pick your own player and name them (and then you can  
>>> outfit them
>>> with cooler clothes and instruments when you earn cash from gigs)  
>>> and it
>>> saves your progress and such. So I would think saving accessibility
>>> configurations would be pretty easy.
>>>
>>>
>>> As far as hardware - if they provided a way to use a generic
>>> controller instead of the custom ones (e.g. use a standard gamepad
>>> instead of the guitar for instance, where the whammy bar became the
>>> joystick), and in software allowed for remapping of the generic
>>> controller's inputs and to the expected inputs of the custom
>>> controller, then that should allow people to use things like the
>>> QuadControl.com's controller to play, wouldn't it? Anything
>>> excessively hard to do with such a controller could be switched to
>>> "automatic mode" in the software? Making these configurations also
>>> per-user as above would be nice as well.
>>>
>>>
>>> Hmm...yeah there is no way to play without a USB  
>>> controller...but...I'm
>>> wondering if one of Barrie's USB controllers might be "tricked" to  
>>> work with
>>> Rock Band -- I mean they already need a hub to fit four  
>>> instruments so one
>>> of those could be an accessible controller...and then someone with  
>>> different
>>> mobility issues might be able to play with a hacked controller  
>>> connected to
>>> five switches (four for the drum pad and one for the pedal. I'll  
>>> also
>>> introduce them to the Quad Controller for the 360 -- they may have  
>>> a "cheat"
>>> or something that would allow someone to override an instrument  
>>> (stranger
>>> things have been put in games).
>>>
>>>
>>> Now this discussion is kind of cool and super fun -- maybe we  
>>> should start
>>> brainstorming on a game every other week where we know we have a  
>>> friendly
>>> person in a high powered position who could make things happen. We  
>>> could
>>> advert it on forums and our blogs for more suggestions. Mark and  
>>> Barrie
>>> could help us on the blog end of things and I can contact some  
>>> other groups.
>>>
>>>
>>> We could then present them with mini-usability reports and if they  
>>> are
>>> interested in more info/help then they can help support the GA-SIG
>>> foundation (our soon-to-be-made-real non-profit) where we could  
>>> earmark for
>>> travel scholarships for SIG members to conferences like the GDC  
>>> where they
>>> are speakers, etc. It's a bird...It's a plane...no...It's "SIG  
>>> PROJECT
>>> PRACTICAL!!!!!"
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm trying to set up a meeting with Alex and the Harmonix gang at  
>>> GDC so we
>>> can show them the controllers, Eelke's haptic solution for the  
>>> blind, how
>>> they are used, and discuss things further. Who doesn't want to  
>>> ROCK after
>>> all? Beethoven was deaf -- and yet it was a rockstar back in his  
>>> day. ;)
>>>
>>>
>>> Let me see if I can get a couple kits if we sign our lives away  
>>> and promise
>>> not to resell them on ebay.
>>>
>>>
>>> Trust me on this one -- we have already benefited from the private
>>> generosity of Harmonix employees who dig our work. I can't say  
>>> much more but
>>> trust me -- I know.
>>>
>>>
>>> Michelle
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> games_access mailing list
>>> games_access at igda.org
>>> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Eelke Folmer                           Assistant Professor
>> Department of CS&E/171
>> University of Nevada              Reno, Nevada 89557
>> Game interaction design        www.helpyouplay.com
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> _______________________________________________
>> games_access mailing list
>> games_access at igda.org
>> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
> .......................................
> these are mediocre times and people are
> losing hope. it's hard for many people
> to believe that there are extraordinary
> things inside themselves, as well as
> others. i hope you can keep an open
> mind.
> -- "unbreakable"
> .......................................
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access



From thomas at pininteractive.com  Mon Dec 17 04:39:24 2007
From: thomas at pininteractive.com (Thomas Westin)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 10:39:24 +0100
Subject: [games_access] SIG Accessibilty Guidelines
In-Reply-To: <6.1.0.6.2.20071216174125.01e30c50@enigami.com>
References: <6.1.0.6.2.20071216174125.01e30c50@enigami.com>
Message-ID: <56994D0C-3BD8-4418-8A80-4D85312721D7@pininteractive.com>

Hello John

I'm going to bold and say my thesis won't take forever. (I wrote  
another thesis, although smaller in just a few days).

I'm planning to contact you and others in the SIG: I just wanted to  
start with models based on Terraformers which I already had, just made  
some corrections. This is to give you all an idea of what GAIM is  
aiming for

Great that you plan to do guidelines of your own, but if we can  
cooperate it's even better. Perhaps agree on UML formats etc. What's  
your e-mail adress so I can contact you off list?

My plan is to include all contributors in GAIM, right now there's a  
placeholder tag in the main GAIM doc for contributors.

I've also created a Creative Commons License for GAIM, with
BY - Author credits, just to get sure people give some creds to the  
contributors
NC - No commercial, unless asked for
SA - Share alike, so people can extend my work if they share alike  
their work

Thanks
Thomas


16 dec 2007 kl. 23.48 skrev John Bannick:

> It looks like Thomas' GAIM project and the associated discussion  
> could eventually result is some sort of practical SIG guidelines.
>
> Since that could take awhile (my thesis took forever) I'm going to  
> go ahead on my own and try to assemble a succinct and practical set  
> of guidelines for our own company.



From thomas at pininteractive.com  Mon Dec 17 04:42:05 2007
From: thomas at pininteractive.com (Thomas Westin)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 10:42:05 +0100
Subject: [games_access] GAIM 0.02 updated
In-Reply-To: <6.1.0.6.2.20071216164457.01e720a8@enigami.com>
References: <A7FE2FE6-A8D3-479D-8B26-1B3AA6505C28@pininteractive.com>
	<6.1.0.6.2.20071216164457.01e720a8@enigami.com>
Message-ID: <14844316-0FE2-453D-9D51-23479AD8AEAA@pininteractive.com>

John,

There is one doc with the GAIM and then a number of additions below -  
all which will be included in the main doc later on - it's just easier  
to publish as separate PDF files directly from the UML tool.

yesterday I added a state diagram for rigid body collision feedback  
for blind gamers

/Thomas




16 dec 2007 kl. 22.48 skrev John Bannick:

> Thomas,
>
> Please help me.
> I go to the link below and see the same 0.02 version I saw before.
> Yet the listserve emails seem to be discussing new stuff.
> How am I being stupid here?
>
> Is the below link to your latest stuff and if so, how does it differ  
> from the previous edition.
> Are there additional docs besides the sonar and collision pdfs?
>
> Thanks,
>
> John Bannick
>
> At 03:14 PM 12/13/2007, you wrote:
>> hi
>>
>> yet another update of GAIM 0.02 is online at
>>
>> http://people.dsv.su.se/~thomasw/gaim
>>
>> /thomas
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> games_access mailing list
>> games_access at igda.org
>> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>
>>
>> --
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database:  
>> 269.17.2/1184 - Release Date: 12/14/2007 11:29 AM
>
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access



From richard at audiogames.net  Mon Dec 17 04:52:16 2007
From: richard at audiogames.net (AudioGames.net)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 10:52:16 +0100
Subject: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!
References: <20071216023137.AZG77925@expms2.cites.uiuc.edu>
	<A5950742-4004-4E6C-9CB0-530A23F54808@pininteractive.com>
Message-ID: <009901c84092$81f13290$6402a8c0@Delletje>

Hi,

Interesting suggestion, Thomas. I think what needs to be taken into account 
is that timing and control are very important factors for musical expressing 
through a rythm intrument. I think it is very, very hard to do a good beat 
with your eyebrows. I'm pretty good at timing, but I simply can't 
raise/lower my eyebrows fast enough. I just tried "We Will Rock You" and 
next to a headache*, I though it was very tiring and was glad the song was 
over ;) I can't imagine me doing this a whole session with multiple songs. I 
think the same might go for using cameras and head-bob-recognition. It all 
depends on how you set it up of course, and how much 'bob' will cause a 
trigger. But I foresee that if it's a 'big bob'**, players will easily get 
tired*** which is not something I think you want to cause with a game.

Greets,

Richard


* which could be related to last night's party but still ;)
** oh boy
*** and nausious* ;)




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Thomas Westin" <thomas at pininteractive.com>
To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 10:29 AM
Subject: Re: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!


> how about using a Cyberlink to control the pedal input; simply mapping  it 
> to raising eyebrows for instance
>
> /Thomas
>
> 16 dec 2007 kl. 09.31 skrev <hinn at uiuc.edu> <hinn at uiuc.edu>:
>
>> Hey --
>>
>> The main issue is that they cannot use the foot pedal but they can  use 
>> the drum pad (the other four inputs) using the drum sticks --  they are 
>> paraplegic and not quadriplegic...although Harmonix would  like to know 
>> solution ideas for quadriplegic gamers as well!
>>
>> I have asked to see if we could get into the source code if we sign  away 
>> our lives -- worst case he just says "no way." And that's cool.  I can 
>> understand keeping the code close to the vest. Doesn't hurt to  propose 
>> it though.
>>
>> At the party I was at last night, it took 2-3 people without  mobility 
>> disabilities to play the drum on "easy" mode. So add in any  mobility 
>> disability and it's even tougher!
>>
>> Another thing to think about is solo practice -- you can go through  the 
>> game just playing the drum with AI players. So there is a loss  of 
>> independence for paraplegic gamers who would have to get a friend  to 
>> "drum" with them. So they get used to each other's cues and 
>> styles...what happens at a party when the friend might not be there  and 
>> a "substitute" second person is needed. It's not absolutely  critical but 
>> it can get annoying to get used to someone else who is  essentially a 
>> part of your "skills" package -- after all, a lot of  (most?) people 
>> practice on their own so that they can keep up with  and/or beat the crap 
>> out of their fellow game players.  Yeah...rockband IS about 
>> collaboration...but...when the scores came  up, there was always clearly 
>> "the winner." :)
>>
>> Did I mention that I think this discussion is really cool? ;)
>>
>> Michelle
>>
>> ---- Original message ----
>>> Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 00:10:01 -0800
>>> From: "Eelke Folmer" <eelke.folmer at gmail.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!
>>> To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org
>>> >
>>>
>>> Hey,
>>>
>>> Interesting problem, maybe a viable strategy would be to find the
>>> gross or lowest denominator of the amount of interaction that a
>>> paraplegic could provide; e.g. if this is a one switch you obviously
>>> have a hard time providing five different inputs. Some amount of
>>> interaction has to go or be automated.
>>>
>>> I assume we will not be able to modify the existing source code and
>>> hence a solution must be found in the hardware. If you want to
>>> automate particular drum beats there is no way to get this  information
>>> through a controller unless you would be using a videocamera that
>>> would monitor the screen to see which buttons need to be pressed.
>>>
>>> I propose a simple solution:
>>>
>>> just splitting up the drums (physically) into a part (1-5) drums that
>>> can be played by a paraplegic and the other part (1-5) shall be  played
>>> by another human. You need 4 people anyway so finding a 5th should  not
>>> be a problem. If the paraplegic is unable to drum but can only use  sip
>>> and puff i would suggest splitting up the controller for the drums in
>>> a sipp and puff part and the remaining drum parts.
>>>
>>> Cheers Eelke
>>>
>>> On 15/12/2007, d. michelle hinn <hinn at uiuc.edu> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hey Mike --
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The automation of inputs sounds like an excellent idea.  I think  you'd
>>>> want it generic and per-input though and be clear that it's not  *just*
>>>> the foot pedal that could be problematic. e.g. Def Leopard's Rick
>>>> Allen could easily handle the bass pedal (and a few more), but one  of
>>>> the pads might be a pain to hit simultaneously with another one.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yep, I was thinking about Rick Allen -- I'll have to do some  surfing 
>>>> to give
>>>> them some links on how drummers with mobility disabilities and 
>>>> amputees
>>>> trick out their drum kits for their own personal situation. That  might 
>>>> give
>>>> Rock Band another source for information (actually...I'm wondering  if 
>>>> we
>>>> could get Rick Allen in on the accessible drum kit? I know that  the 
>>>> Harmonix
>>>> guys know some of the band contacts. I'm serious! How cool would  that 
>>>> be to
>>>> be able to buy a special edition Rick Allen controller that could be
>>>> reconfigured to work with switches and so forth? For info on his 
>>>> custom kit:
>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Allen_%28drummer%29
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I've only played the original GH briefly - do these games identify  the
>>>> different players at the start of the game?  Tying such settings to
>>>> individual users/names would be nice, so that if you're taking turns
>>>> it'd automatically reconfigure itself for each person once those
>>>> configurations are set and keep the accounts/configurations around  as
>>>> options for future gaming sessions.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes, you pick your own player and name them (and then you can  outfit 
>>>> them
>>>> with cooler clothes and instruments when you earn cash from gigs)  and 
>>>> it
>>>> saves your progress and such. So I would think saving accessibility
>>>> configurations would be pretty easy.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> As far as hardware - if they provided a way to use a generic
>>>> controller instead of the custom ones (e.g. use a standard gamepad
>>>> instead of the guitar for instance, where the whammy bar became the
>>>> joystick), and in software allowed for remapping of the generic
>>>> controller's inputs and to the expected inputs of the custom
>>>> controller, then that should allow people to use things like the
>>>> QuadControl.com's controller to play, wouldn't it? Anything
>>>> excessively hard to do with such a controller could be switched to
>>>> "automatic mode" in the software? Making these configurations also
>>>> per-user as above would be nice as well.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hmm...yeah there is no way to play without a USB 
>>>> controller...but...I'm
>>>> wondering if one of Barrie's USB controllers might be "tricked" to 
>>>> work with
>>>> Rock Band -- I mean they already need a hub to fit four  instruments so 
>>>> one
>>>> of those could be an accessible controller...and then someone with 
>>>> different
>>>> mobility issues might be able to play with a hacked controller 
>>>> connected to
>>>> five switches (four for the drum pad and one for the pedal. I'll  also
>>>> introduce them to the Quad Controller for the 360 -- they may have  a 
>>>> "cheat"
>>>> or something that would allow someone to override an instrument 
>>>> (stranger
>>>> things have been put in games).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Now this discussion is kind of cool and super fun -- maybe we  should 
>>>> start
>>>> brainstorming on a game every other week where we know we have a 
>>>> friendly
>>>> person in a high powered position who could make things happen. We 
>>>> could
>>>> advert it on forums and our blogs for more suggestions. Mark and 
>>>> Barrie
>>>> could help us on the blog end of things and I can contact some  other 
>>>> groups.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> We could then present them with mini-usability reports and if they  are
>>>> interested in more info/help then they can help support the GA-SIG
>>>> foundation (our soon-to-be-made-real non-profit) where we could 
>>>> earmark for
>>>> travel scholarships for SIG members to conferences like the GDC  where 
>>>> they
>>>> are speakers, etc. It's a bird...It's a plane...no...It's "SIG  PROJECT
>>>> PRACTICAL!!!!!"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm trying to set up a meeting with Alex and the Harmonix gang at  GDC 
>>>> so we
>>>> can show them the controllers, Eelke's haptic solution for the  blind, 
>>>> how
>>>> they are used, and discuss things further. Who doesn't want to  ROCK 
>>>> after
>>>> all? Beethoven was deaf -- and yet it was a rockstar back in his  day. 
>>>> ;)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Let me see if I can get a couple kits if we sign our lives away  and 
>>>> promise
>>>> not to resell them on ebay.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Trust me on this one -- we have already benefited from the private
>>>> generosity of Harmonix employees who dig our work. I can't say  much 
>>>> more but
>>>> trust me -- I know.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Michelle
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> games_access mailing list
>>>> games_access at igda.org
>>>> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Eelke Folmer                           Assistant Professor
>>> Department of CS&E/171
>>> University of Nevada              Reno, Nevada 89557
>>> Game interaction design        www.helpyouplay.com
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> games_access mailing list
>>> games_access at igda.org
>>> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>> .......................................
>> these are mediocre times and people are
>> losing hope. it's hard for many people
>> to believe that there are extraordinary
>> things inside themselves, as well as
>> others. i hope you can keep an open
>> mind.
>> -- "unbreakable"
>> .......................................
>> _______________________________________________
>> games_access mailing list
>> games_access at igda.org
>> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access 



From richard at audiogames.net  Mon Dec 17 04:56:24 2007
From: richard at audiogames.net (AudioGames.net)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 10:56:24 +0100
Subject: [games_access] 9+1 Key Points
References: <6.1.0.6.2.20071216125451.01dbb998@enigami.com>
Message-ID: <00a401c84093$15802930$6402a8c0@Delletje>

Hi,

*quote*
Re Item #8, Output Rendering. I'm also of the opinion that KISS trumps 
customization. Or more specifically, even though people say they want more 
customization, they have a limited tolerance for a multiplicity of options. 
The poster child for this was the pagination software I built for the New 
York Times. Literally every command was customizable; customer demands! As a 
consequence, the product took longer to enhance, debug, and support; oh, and 
cost more.
*quote end*

I understand where you are coming from but I think #8 can be applied to 
games in such a way that it doesn't challenge the tolerance of a user - for 
instance by using a limited number of presets. So for example, when applied 
to color-blind schemes and contrast schemes, you could simply add 4 or so 
presets, each catered towards the types of color blindness and/or contrast 
problem. A user simply chooses a preset and they're off. But I guess that 
for many users it is important that the application allows the user to tweak 
the presets a bit to his or her own liking. Some blind people like to set 
the speed of their speech synthesizer to a male voice at 100% speed, some to 
a female voice at 179% speed - based and what they need most. Some people 
always turn of the music because the game is too noisy for them too play 
with all the sound effects going on.

Each of the given solutions/examples is already used in games nowadays, many 
of them already together. Compared to what one can set in games already (for 
example: http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/8787/01settings8bj.jpg ), I 
don't think an extra "accessibility settings" would hurt. I understand that 
when you provide 36 types of chips in a supermarket, people have a hard time 
choosing and would be better of with simply having 2 or 3 types to choose 
from. But I also think that it is important for people with impairments 
(which can be very diverse) to tweak parameters to their liking so it works 
out best for them.

Thank you very much for your feedback on the 9+1 list, and please feel free 
to use any of it in your own guidelines. In the end we can compare them and 
see what usefulness there is in there.

Greets,

Richard


>
> Some sort of marginal analysis is appropriate here.
>
> In any event, you did a fine job with your 9+1 Key Points.
> Grids like this are something we can actually apply to product.
>
> John Bannick
> CTO
> 7-128 Software
>
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access 



From jbannick at 7128.com  Mon Dec 17 05:30:44 2007
From: jbannick at 7128.com (John Bannick)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 05:30:44 -0500
Subject: [games_access] 9+1 Key Points
In-Reply-To: <00a401c84093$15802930$6402a8c0@Delletje>
References: <6.1.0.6.2.20071216125451.01dbb998@enigami.com>
	<00a401c84093$15802930$6402a8c0@Delletje>
Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.2.20071217051541.01e48e80@enigami.com>

Richard,

Actually, we used presets very much like you describe in an early version 
of the GameBook.
Playtesters found them too confusing, too many options, so we took them out.
I think the problem was that the preset didn't immediately tell the gamer 
what was being set.
And we still had the specific tweak buttons as well.

I personally like the idea, as a manifestation of the Facade pattern.
We could layer the Control Panel, applying Progressive Revelation, but that 
still adds to the complexity of the UI.

In a larger context, last week a coding colleague suggested that the term 
"Advanced" be used on such panels.
His thinking being that that is a generally accepted term that both 
indicates more control and at the same time indicates more complexity. That 
would likely mitigate the "too many types of chips" problem.

This is one of those "interesting" problems for which I'm trying to resolve 
an idiom.

Thanks for the screen shot. I printed it for my work set for this project.

And thanks for your ideas.

John

At 04:56 AM 12/17/2007, you wrote:
>Hi,
>
>*quote*
>Re Item #8, Output Rendering. I'm also of the opinion that KISS trumps 
>customization. Or more specifically, even though people say they want more 
>customization, they have a limited tolerance for a multiplicity of 
>options. The poster child for this was the pagination software I built for 
>the New York Times. Literally every command was customizable; customer 
>demands! As a consequence, the product took longer to enhance, debug, and 
>support; oh, and cost more.
>*quote end*
>
>I understand where you are coming from but I think #8 can be applied to 
>games in such a way that it doesn't challenge the tolerance of a user - 
>for instance by using a limited number of presets. So for example, when 
>applied to color-blind schemes and contrast schemes, you could simply add 
>4 or so presets, each catered towards the types of color blindness and/or 
>contrast problem. A user simply chooses a preset and they're off. But I 
>guess that for many users it is important that the application allows the 
>user to tweak the presets a bit to his or her own liking. Some blind 
>people like to set the speed of their speech synthesizer to a male voice 
>at 100% speed, some to a female voice at 179% speed - based and what they 
>need most. Some people always turn of the music because the game is too 
>noisy for them too play with all the sound effects going on.
>
>Each of the given solutions/examples is already used in games nowadays, 
>many of them already together. Compared to what one can set in games 
>already (for example: 
>http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/8787/01settings8bj.jpg ), I don't think 
>an extra "accessibility settings" would hurt. I understand that when you 
>provide 36 types of chips in a supermarket, people have a hard time 
>choosing and would be better of with simply having 2 or 3 types to choose 
>from. But I also think that it is important for people with impairments 
>(which can be very diverse) to tweak parameters to their liking so it 
>works out best for them.
>
>Thank you very much for your feedback on the 9+1 list, and please feel 
>free to use any of it in your own guidelines. In the end we can compare 
>them and see what usefulness there is in there.
>
>Greets,
>
>Richard
>
>
>>
>>Some sort of marginal analysis is appropriate here.
>>
>>In any event, you did a fine job with your 9+1 Key Points.
>>Grids like this are something we can actually apply to product.
>>
>>John Bannick
>>CTO
>>7-128 Software
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>games_access mailing list
>>games_access at igda.org
>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>
>--
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 
>269.17.4/1187 - Release Date: 12/16/2007 11:36 AM



From richard at audiogames.net  Mon Dec 17 06:48:04 2007
From: richard at audiogames.net (AudioGames.net)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 12:48:04 +0100
Subject: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!
References: <20071216023137.AZG77925@expms2.cites.uiuc.edu><A5950742-4004-4E6C-9CB0-530A23F54808@pininteractive.com>
	<009901c84092$81f13290$6402a8c0@Delletje>
Message-ID: <002101c840a2$af5b3950$6402a8c0@Delletje>

I forgot to mention exactly why I though your suggestion was interesting. 
Because I wish Cyberlink could be the solution here and gamers could trigger 
the kickdrum by merely thinking about it :)


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "AudioGames.net" <richard at audiogames.net>
To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 10:52 AM
Subject: Re: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!


> Hi,
>
> Interesting suggestion, Thomas. I think what needs to be taken into 
> account is that timing and control are very important factors for musical 
> expressing through a rythm intrument. I think it is very, very hard to do 
> a good beat with your eyebrows. I'm pretty good at timing, but I simply 
> can't raise/lower my eyebrows fast enough. I just tried "We Will Rock You" 
> and next to a headache*, I though it was very tiring and was glad the song 
> was over ;) I can't imagine me doing this a whole session with multiple 
> songs. I think the same might go for using cameras and 
> head-bob-recognition. It all depends on how you set it up of course, and 
> how much 'bob' will cause a trigger. But I foresee that if it's a 'big 
> bob'**, players will easily get tired*** which is not something I think 
> you want to cause with a game.
>
> Greets,
>
> Richard
>
>
> * which could be related to last night's party but still ;)
> ** oh boy
> *** and nausious* ;)
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Thomas Westin" <thomas at pininteractive.com>
> To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
> Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 10:29 AM
> Subject: Re: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!
>
>
>> how about using a Cyberlink to control the pedal input; simply mapping 
>> it to raising eyebrows for instance
>>
>> /Thomas
>>
>> 16 dec 2007 kl. 09.31 skrev <hinn at uiuc.edu> <hinn at uiuc.edu>:
>>
>>> Hey --
>>>
>>> The main issue is that they cannot use the foot pedal but they can  use 
>>> the drum pad (the other four inputs) using the drum sticks --  they are 
>>> paraplegic and not quadriplegic...although Harmonix would  like to know 
>>> solution ideas for quadriplegic gamers as well!
>>>
>>> I have asked to see if we could get into the source code if we sign 
>>> away our lives -- worst case he just says "no way." And that's cool.  I 
>>> can understand keeping the code close to the vest. Doesn't hurt to 
>>> propose it though.
>>>
>>> At the party I was at last night, it took 2-3 people without  mobility 
>>> disabilities to play the drum on "easy" mode. So add in any  mobility 
>>> disability and it's even tougher!
>>>
>>> Another thing to think about is solo practice -- you can go through  the 
>>> game just playing the drum with AI players. So there is a loss  of 
>>> independence for paraplegic gamers who would have to get a friend  to 
>>> "drum" with them. So they get used to each other's cues and 
>>> styles...what happens at a party when the friend might not be there  and 
>>> a "substitute" second person is needed. It's not absolutely  critical 
>>> but it can get annoying to get used to someone else who is  essentially 
>>> a part of your "skills" package -- after all, a lot of  (most?) people 
>>> practice on their own so that they can keep up with  and/or beat the 
>>> crap out of their fellow game players.  Yeah...rockband IS about 
>>> collaboration...but...when the scores came  up, there was always clearly 
>>> "the winner." :)
>>>
>>> Did I mention that I think this discussion is really cool? ;)
>>>
>>> Michelle
>>>
>>> ---- Original message ----
>>>> Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 00:10:01 -0800
>>>> From: "Eelke Folmer" <eelke.folmer at gmail.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!
>>>> To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> Hey,
>>>>
>>>> Interesting problem, maybe a viable strategy would be to find the
>>>> gross or lowest denominator of the amount of interaction that a
>>>> paraplegic could provide; e.g. if this is a one switch you obviously
>>>> have a hard time providing five different inputs. Some amount of
>>>> interaction has to go or be automated.
>>>>
>>>> I assume we will not be able to modify the existing source code and
>>>> hence a solution must be found in the hardware. If you want to
>>>> automate particular drum beats there is no way to get this  information
>>>> through a controller unless you would be using a videocamera that
>>>> would monitor the screen to see which buttons need to be pressed.
>>>>
>>>> I propose a simple solution:
>>>>
>>>> just splitting up the drums (physically) into a part (1-5) drums that
>>>> can be played by a paraplegic and the other part (1-5) shall be  played
>>>> by another human. You need 4 people anyway so finding a 5th should  not
>>>> be a problem. If the paraplegic is unable to drum but can only use  sip
>>>> and puff i would suggest splitting up the controller for the drums in
>>>> a sipp and puff part and the remaining drum parts.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers Eelke
>>>>
>>>> On 15/12/2007, d. michelle hinn <hinn at uiuc.edu> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hey Mike --
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The automation of inputs sounds like an excellent idea.  I think 
>>>>> you'd
>>>>> want it generic and per-input though and be clear that it's not 
>>>>> *just*
>>>>> the foot pedal that could be problematic. e.g. Def Leopard's Rick
>>>>> Allen could easily handle the bass pedal (and a few more), but one  of
>>>>> the pads might be a pain to hit simultaneously with another one.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Yep, I was thinking about Rick Allen -- I'll have to do some  surfing 
>>>>> to give
>>>>> them some links on how drummers with mobility disabilities and 
>>>>> amputees
>>>>> trick out their drum kits for their own personal situation. That 
>>>>> might give
>>>>> Rock Band another source for information (actually...I'm wondering  if 
>>>>> we
>>>>> could get Rick Allen in on the accessible drum kit? I know that  the 
>>>>> Harmonix
>>>>> guys know some of the band contacts. I'm serious! How cool would  that 
>>>>> be to
>>>>> be able to buy a special edition Rick Allen controller that could be
>>>>> reconfigured to work with switches and so forth? For info on his 
>>>>> custom kit:
>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Allen_%28drummer%29
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I've only played the original GH briefly - do these games identify 
>>>>> the
>>>>> different players at the start of the game?  Tying such settings to
>>>>> individual users/names would be nice, so that if you're taking turns
>>>>> it'd automatically reconfigure itself for each person once those
>>>>> configurations are set and keep the accounts/configurations around  as
>>>>> options for future gaming sessions.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, you pick your own player and name them (and then you can  outfit 
>>>>> them
>>>>> with cooler clothes and instruments when you earn cash from gigs)  and 
>>>>> it
>>>>> saves your progress and such. So I would think saving accessibility
>>>>> configurations would be pretty easy.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> As far as hardware - if they provided a way to use a generic
>>>>> controller instead of the custom ones (e.g. use a standard gamepad
>>>>> instead of the guitar for instance, where the whammy bar became the
>>>>> joystick), and in software allowed for remapping of the generic
>>>>> controller's inputs and to the expected inputs of the custom
>>>>> controller, then that should allow people to use things like the
>>>>> QuadControl.com's controller to play, wouldn't it? Anything
>>>>> excessively hard to do with such a controller could be switched to
>>>>> "automatic mode" in the software? Making these configurations also
>>>>> per-user as above would be nice as well.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hmm...yeah there is no way to play without a USB 
>>>>> controller...but...I'm
>>>>> wondering if one of Barrie's USB controllers might be "tricked" to 
>>>>> work with
>>>>> Rock Band -- I mean they already need a hub to fit four  instruments 
>>>>> so one
>>>>> of those could be an accessible controller...and then someone with 
>>>>> different
>>>>> mobility issues might be able to play with a hacked controller 
>>>>> connected to
>>>>> five switches (four for the drum pad and one for the pedal. I'll  also
>>>>> introduce them to the Quad Controller for the 360 -- they may have  a 
>>>>> "cheat"
>>>>> or something that would allow someone to override an instrument 
>>>>> (stranger
>>>>> things have been put in games).
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Now this discussion is kind of cool and super fun -- maybe we  should 
>>>>> start
>>>>> brainstorming on a game every other week where we know we have a 
>>>>> friendly
>>>>> person in a high powered position who could make things happen. We 
>>>>> could
>>>>> advert it on forums and our blogs for more suggestions. Mark and 
>>>>> Barrie
>>>>> could help us on the blog end of things and I can contact some  other 
>>>>> groups.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> We could then present them with mini-usability reports and if they 
>>>>> are
>>>>> interested in more info/help then they can help support the GA-SIG
>>>>> foundation (our soon-to-be-made-real non-profit) where we could 
>>>>> earmark for
>>>>> travel scholarships for SIG members to conferences like the GDC  where 
>>>>> they
>>>>> are speakers, etc. It's a bird...It's a plane...no...It's "SIG 
>>>>> PROJECT
>>>>> PRACTICAL!!!!!"
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm trying to set up a meeting with Alex and the Harmonix gang at  GDC 
>>>>> so we
>>>>> can show them the controllers, Eelke's haptic solution for the  blind, 
>>>>> how
>>>>> they are used, and discuss things further. Who doesn't want to  ROCK 
>>>>> after
>>>>> all? Beethoven was deaf -- and yet it was a rockstar back in his  day. 
>>>>> ;)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Let me see if I can get a couple kits if we sign our lives away  and 
>>>>> promise
>>>>> not to resell them on ebay.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Trust me on this one -- we have already benefited from the private
>>>>> generosity of Harmonix employees who dig our work. I can't say  much 
>>>>> more but
>>>>> trust me -- I know.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Michelle
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> games_access mailing list
>>>>> games_access at igda.org
>>>>> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -- 
>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Eelke Folmer                           Assistant Professor
>>>> Department of CS&E/171
>>>> University of Nevada              Reno, Nevada 89557
>>>> Game interaction design        www.helpyouplay.com
>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> games_access mailing list
>>>> games_access at igda.org
>>>> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>> .......................................
>>> these are mediocre times and people are
>>> losing hope. it's hard for many people
>>> to believe that there are extraordinary
>>> things inside themselves, as well as
>>> others. i hope you can keep an open
>>> mind.
>>> -- "unbreakable"
>>> .......................................
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> games_access mailing list
>>> games_access at igda.org
>>> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> games_access mailing list
>> games_access at igda.org
>> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access 



From reid at rbkdesign.com  Mon Dec 17 10:33:56 2007
From: reid at rbkdesign.com (Reid Kimball)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 07:33:56 -0800
Subject: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!
In-Reply-To: <009901c84092$81f13290$6402a8c0@Delletje>
References: <20071216023137.AZG77925@expms2.cites.uiuc.edu>
	<A5950742-4004-4E6C-9CB0-530A23F54808@pininteractive.com>
	<009901c84092$81f13290$6402a8c0@Delletje>
Message-ID: <a6673b8d0712170733xc802ddbre63b8222177f1e8c@mail.gmail.com>

This is what everyone said about the Wii before it came out. "My arms
are going to be so tired." A year later, it's still selling like crazy
and very hard to find in stores.
(http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=16640) Disabled
players have so few options these days and we aren't the customer,
they are. Richard, you may get tired, but maybe not other people?

At this point, we should put all ideas on the table and see which ones
float to the top after brainstorming.

-Reid

On Dec 17, 2007 1:52 AM, AudioGames.net <richard at audiogames.net> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Interesting suggestion, Thomas. I think what needs to be taken into account
> is that timing and control are very important factors for musical expressing
> through a rythm intrument. I think it is very, very hard to do a good beat
> with your eyebrows. I'm pretty good at timing, but I simply can't
> raise/lower my eyebrows fast enough. I just tried "We Will Rock You" and
> next to a headache*, I though it was very tiring and was glad the song was
> over ;) I can't imagine me doing this a whole session with multiple songs. I
> think the same might go for using cameras and head-bob-recognition. It all
> depends on how you set it up of course, and how much 'bob' will cause a
> trigger. But I foresee that if it's a 'big bob'**, players will easily get
> tired*** which is not something I think you want to cause with a game.
>
> Greets,
>
> Richard
>
>
> * which could be related to last night's party but still ;)
> ** oh boy
> *** and nausious* ;)
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Thomas Westin" <thomas at pininteractive.com>
> To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
>
> Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 10:29 AM
> Subject: Re: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!
>
>
> > how about using a Cyberlink to control the pedal input; simply mapping  it
> > to raising eyebrows for instance
> >
> > /Thomas
> >
> > 16 dec 2007 kl. 09.31 skrev <hinn at uiuc.edu> <hinn at uiuc.edu>:
> >
> >> Hey --
> >>
> >> The main issue is that they cannot use the foot pedal but they can  use
> >> the drum pad (the other four inputs) using the drum sticks --  they are
> >> paraplegic and not quadriplegic...although Harmonix would  like to know
> >> solution ideas for quadriplegic gamers as well!
> >>
> >> I have asked to see if we could get into the source code if we sign  away
> >> our lives -- worst case he just says "no way." And that's cool.  I can
> >> understand keeping the code close to the vest. Doesn't hurt to  propose
> >> it though.
> >>
> >> At the party I was at last night, it took 2-3 people without  mobility
> >> disabilities to play the drum on "easy" mode. So add in any  mobility
> >> disability and it's even tougher!
> >>
> >> Another thing to think about is solo practice -- you can go through  the
> >> game just playing the drum with AI players. So there is a loss  of
> >> independence for paraplegic gamers who would have to get a friend  to
> >> "drum" with them. So they get used to each other's cues and
> >> styles...what happens at a party when the friend might not be there  and
> >> a "substitute" second person is needed. It's not absolutely  critical but
> >> it can get annoying to get used to someone else who is  essentially a
> >> part of your "skills" package -- after all, a lot of  (most?) people
> >> practice on their own so that they can keep up with  and/or beat the crap
> >> out of their fellow game players.  Yeah...rockband IS about
> >> collaboration...but...when the scores came  up, there was always clearly
> >> "the winner." :)
> >>
> >> Did I mention that I think this discussion is really cool? ;)
> >>
> >> Michelle
> >>
> >> ---- Original message ----
> >>> Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 00:10:01 -0800
> >>> From: "Eelke Folmer" <eelke.folmer at gmail.com>
> >>> Subject: Re: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!
> >>> To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org
> >>> >
> >>>
> >>> Hey,
> >>>
> >>> Interesting problem, maybe a viable strategy would be to find the
> >>> gross or lowest denominator of the amount of interaction that a
> >>> paraplegic could provide; e.g. if this is a one switch you obviously
> >>> have a hard time providing five different inputs. Some amount of
> >>> interaction has to go or be automated.
> >>>
> >>> I assume we will not be able to modify the existing source code and
> >>> hence a solution must be found in the hardware. If you want to
> >>> automate particular drum beats there is no way to get this  information
> >>> through a controller unless you would be using a videocamera that
> >>> would monitor the screen to see which buttons need to be pressed.
> >>>
> >>> I propose a simple solution:
> >>>
> >>> just splitting up the drums (physically) into a part (1-5) drums that
> >>> can be played by a paraplegic and the other part (1-5) shall be  played
> >>> by another human. You need 4 people anyway so finding a 5th should  not
> >>> be a problem. If the paraplegic is unable to drum but can only use  sip
> >>> and puff i would suggest splitting up the controller for the drums in
> >>> a sipp and puff part and the remaining drum parts.
> >>>
> >>> Cheers Eelke
> >>>
> >>> On 15/12/2007, d. michelle hinn <hinn at uiuc.edu> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Hey Mike --
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> The automation of inputs sounds like an excellent idea.  I think  you'd
> >>>> want it generic and per-input though and be clear that it's not  *just*
> >>>> the foot pedal that could be problematic. e.g. Def Leopard's Rick
> >>>> Allen could easily handle the bass pedal (and a few more), but one  of
> >>>> the pads might be a pain to hit simultaneously with another one.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Yep, I was thinking about Rick Allen -- I'll have to do some  surfing
> >>>> to give
> >>>> them some links on how drummers with mobility disabilities and
> >>>> amputees
> >>>> trick out their drum kits for their own personal situation. That  might
> >>>> give
> >>>> Rock Band another source for information (actually...I'm wondering  if
> >>>> we
> >>>> could get Rick Allen in on the accessible drum kit? I know that  the
> >>>> Harmonix
> >>>> guys know some of the band contacts. I'm serious! How cool would  that
> >>>> be to
> >>>> be able to buy a special edition Rick Allen controller that could be
> >>>> reconfigured to work with switches and so forth? For info on his
> >>>> custom kit:
> >>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Allen_%28drummer%29
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> I've only played the original GH briefly - do these games identify  the
> >>>> different players at the start of the game?  Tying such settings to
> >>>> individual users/names would be nice, so that if you're taking turns
> >>>> it'd automatically reconfigure itself for each person once those
> >>>> configurations are set and keep the accounts/configurations around  as
> >>>> options for future gaming sessions.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Yes, you pick your own player and name them (and then you can  outfit
> >>>> them
> >>>> with cooler clothes and instruments when you earn cash from gigs)  and
> >>>> it
> >>>> saves your progress and such. So I would think saving accessibility
> >>>> configurations would be pretty easy.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> As far as hardware - if they provided a way to use a generic
> >>>> controller instead of the custom ones (e.g. use a standard gamepad
> >>>> instead of the guitar for instance, where the whammy bar became the
> >>>> joystick), and in software allowed for remapping of the generic
> >>>> controller's inputs and to the expected inputs of the custom
> >>>> controller, then that should allow people to use things like the
> >>>> QuadControl.com's controller to play, wouldn't it? Anything
> >>>> excessively hard to do with such a controller could be switched to
> >>>> "automatic mode" in the software? Making these configurations also
> >>>> per-user as above would be nice as well.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Hmm...yeah there is no way to play without a USB
> >>>> controller...but...I'm
> >>>> wondering if one of Barrie's USB controllers might be "tricked" to
> >>>> work with
> >>>> Rock Band -- I mean they already need a hub to fit four  instruments so
> >>>> one
> >>>> of those could be an accessible controller...and then someone with
> >>>> different
> >>>> mobility issues might be able to play with a hacked controller
> >>>> connected to
> >>>> five switches (four for the drum pad and one for the pedal. I'll  also
> >>>> introduce them to the Quad Controller for the 360 -- they may have  a
> >>>> "cheat"
> >>>> or something that would allow someone to override an instrument
> >>>> (stranger
> >>>> things have been put in games).
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Now this discussion is kind of cool and super fun -- maybe we  should
> >>>> start
> >>>> brainstorming on a game every other week where we know we have a
> >>>> friendly
> >>>> person in a high powered position who could make things happen. We
> >>>> could
> >>>> advert it on forums and our blogs for more suggestions. Mark and
> >>>> Barrie
> >>>> could help us on the blog end of things and I can contact some  other
> >>>> groups.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> We could then present them with mini-usability reports and if they  are
> >>>> interested in more info/help then they can help support the GA-SIG
> >>>> foundation (our soon-to-be-made-real non-profit) where we could
> >>>> earmark for
> >>>> travel scholarships for SIG members to conferences like the GDC  where
> >>>> they
> >>>> are speakers, etc. It's a bird...It's a plane...no...It's "SIG  PROJECT
> >>>> PRACTICAL!!!!!"
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> I'm trying to set up a meeting with Alex and the Harmonix gang at  GDC
> >>>> so we
> >>>> can show them the controllers, Eelke's haptic solution for the  blind,
> >>>> how
> >>>> they are used, and discuss things further. Who doesn't want to  ROCK
> >>>> after
> >>>> all? Beethoven was deaf -- and yet it was a rockstar back in his  day.
> >>>> ;)
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Let me see if I can get a couple kits if we sign our lives away  and
> >>>> promise
> >>>> not to resell them on ebay.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Trust me on this one -- we have already benefited from the private
> >>>> generosity of Harmonix employees who dig our work. I can't say  much
> >>>> more but
> >>>> trust me -- I know.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Michelle
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> games_access mailing list
> >>>> games_access at igda.org
> >>>> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> Eelke Folmer                           Assistant Professor
> >>> Department of CS&E/171
> >>> University of Nevada              Reno, Nevada 89557
> >>> Game interaction design        www.helpyouplay.com
> >>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> games_access mailing list
> >>> games_access at igda.org
> >>> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
> >> .......................................
> >> these are mediocre times and people are
> >> losing hope. it's hard for many people
> >> to believe that there are extraordinary
> >> things inside themselves, as well as
> >> others. i hope you can keep an open
> >> mind.
> >> -- "unbreakable"
> >> .......................................
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> games_access mailing list
> >> games_access at igda.org
> >> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > games_access mailing list
> > games_access at igda.org
> > http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>


From hinn at uiuc.edu  Mon Dec 17 11:09:13 2007
From: hinn at uiuc.edu (d. michelle hinn)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 10:09:13 -0600
Subject: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!
In-Reply-To: <A5950742-4004-4E6C-9CB0-530A23F54808@pininteractive.com>
References: <20071216023137.AZG77925@expms2.cites.uiuc.edu>
	<A5950742-4004-4E6C-9CB0-530A23F54808@pininteractive.com>
Message-ID: <p06230907c38c4b926127@[130.126.29.18]>

That's an interesting idea! My main concern would be the face making 
again -- that might be harder to control than not "rocking out" with 
head banging in order to use the back of the head to hit a switch.

BTW, the foot pedal is connected via what looks like could be a 
connection for a switch button -- it's not connected to the usb hub 
that the drum kit itself is connected to. The USB hub has four slots 
-- one for the mic, two for guitars (one bass, one regular), and one 
of the drum kit.

This is a very interesting issue -- because it's a game that really 
is meant to give you as much of a feeling that you are a rock star as 
possible...so to watch people play, you can see that they get pretty 
immersed in it physically once they get the hang of it. It's one of 
those things where we have to think of the alternative controls but 
also keep the impact on "rocking out" as low as possible because 
that's part of the fun of the game. That adds something to any 
solutions we offer -- of course to be able to play the game is way 
better than not being able to at all so being able to play is going 
to give "fun" a chance to happen. But how can we preserve the the fun 
factor as much as possible? That doesn't mean that it might not be 
fun or as fun playing in an alternative way -- the solutions might be 
more fun for some. This just reminds me about how game accessibility 
is about so much more than just accessing information.

I'll throw this quote in for Sander to see if he's reading: it's "the 
right to FUN!" :) (other fellow list readers...you have to imagine a 
tall long haired guy who is in a band in real life growling this like 
he's "Braveheart." ;) )

Michelle

>how about using a Cyberlink to control the pedal input; simply 
>mapping it to raising eyebrows for instance
>
>/Thomas
>
>16 dec 2007 kl. 09.31 skrev <hinn at uiuc.edu> <hinn at uiuc.edu>:
>
>>Hey --
>>
>>The main issue is that they cannot use the foot pedal but they can 
>>use the drum pad (the other four inputs) using the drum sticks -- 
>>they are paraplegic and not quadriplegic...although Harmonix would 
>>like to know solution ideas for quadriplegic gamers as well!
>>
>>I have asked to see if we could get into the source code if we sign 
>>away our lives -- worst case he just says "no way." And that's 
>>cool. I can understand keeping the code close to the vest. Doesn't 
>>hurt to propose it though.
>>
>>At the party I was at last night, it took 2-3 people without 
>>mobility disabilities to play the drum on "easy" mode. So add in 
>>any mobility disability and it's even tougher!
>>
>>Another thing to think about is solo practice -- you can go through 
>>the game just playing the drum with AI players. So there is a loss 
>>of independence for paraplegic gamers who would have to get a 
>>friend to "drum" with them. So they get used to each other's cues 
>>and styles...what happens at a party when the friend might not be 
>>there and a "substitute" second person is needed. It's not 
>>absolutely critical but it can get annoying to get used to someone 
>>else who is essentially a part of your "skills" package -- after 
>>all, a lot of (most?) people practice on their own so that they can 
>>keep up with and/or beat the crap out of their fellow game players. 
>>Yeah...rockband IS about collaboration...but...when the scores came 
>>up, there was always clearly "the winner." :)
>>
>>Did I mention that I think this discussion is really cool? ;)
>>
>>Michelle
>>
>>---- Original message ----
>>>Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 00:10:01 -0800
>>>From: "Eelke Folmer" <eelke.folmer at gmail.com>
>>>Subject: Re: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!
>>>To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
>>>
>>>Hey,
>>>
>>>Interesting problem, maybe a viable strategy would be to find the
>>>gross or lowest denominator of the amount of interaction that a
>>>paraplegic could provide; e.g. if this is a one switch you obviously
>>>have a hard time providing five different inputs. Some amount of
>>>interaction has to go or be automated.
>>>
>>>I assume we will not be able to modify the existing source code and
>>>hence a solution must be found in the hardware. If you want to
>>>automate particular drum beats there is no way to get this information
>>>through a controller unless you would be using a videocamera that
>>>would monitor the screen to see which buttons need to be pressed.
>>>
>>>I propose a simple solution:
>>>
>>>just splitting up the drums (physically) into a part (1-5) drums that
>>>can be played by a paraplegic and the other part (1-5) shall be played
>>>by another human. You need 4 people anyway so finding a 5th should not
>>>be a problem. If the paraplegic is unable to drum but can only use sip
>>>and puff i would suggest splitting up the controller for the drums in
>>>a sipp and puff part and the remaining drum parts.
>>>
>>>Cheers Eelke
>>>
>>>On 15/12/2007, d. michelle hinn <hinn at uiuc.edu> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Hey Mike --
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>The automation of inputs sounds like an excellent idea.  I think you'd
>>>>want it generic and per-input though and be clear that it's not *just*
>>>>the foot pedal that could be problematic. e.g. Def Leopard's Rick
>>>>Allen could easily handle the bass pedal (and a few more), but one of
>>>>the pads might be a pain to hit simultaneously with another one.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Yep, I was thinking about Rick Allen -- I'll have to do some 
>>>>surfing to give
>>>>them some links on how drummers with mobility disabilities and amputees
>>>>trick out their drum kits for their own personal situation. That might give
>>>>Rock Band another source for information (actually...I'm wondering if we
>>>>could get Rick Allen in on the accessible drum kit? I know that 
>>>>the Harmonix
>>>>guys know some of the band contacts. I'm serious! How cool would that be to
>>>>be able to buy a special edition Rick Allen controller that could be
>>>>reconfigured to work with switches and so forth? For info on his 
>>>>custom kit:
>>>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Allen_%28drummer%29
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I've only played the original GH briefly - do these games identify the
>>>>different players at the start of the game?  Tying such settings to
>>>>individual users/names would be nice, so that if you're taking turns
>>>>it'd automatically reconfigure itself for each person once those
>>>>configurations are set and keep the accounts/configurations around as
>>>>options for future gaming sessions.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Yes, you pick your own player and name them (and then you can outfit them
>>>>with cooler clothes and instruments when you earn cash from gigs) and it
>>>>saves your progress and such. So I would think saving accessibility
>>>>configurations would be pretty easy.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>As far as hardware - if they provided a way to use a generic
>>>>controller instead of the custom ones (e.g. use a standard gamepad
>>>>instead of the guitar for instance, where the whammy bar became the
>>>>joystick), and in software allowed for remapping of the generic
>>>>controller's inputs and to the expected inputs of the custom
>>>>controller, then that should allow people to use things like the
>>>>QuadControl.com's controller to play, wouldn't it? Anything
>>>>excessively hard to do with such a controller could be switched to
>>>>"automatic mode" in the software? Making these configurations also
>>>>per-user as above would be nice as well.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Hmm...yeah there is no way to play without a USB controller...but...I'm
>>>>wondering if one of Barrie's USB controllers might be "tricked" 
>>>>to work with
>>>>Rock Band -- I mean they already need a hub to fit four instruments so one
>>>>of those could be an accessible controller...and then someone 
>>>>with different
>>>>mobility issues might be able to play with a hacked controller connected to
>>>>five switches (four for the drum pad and one for the pedal. I'll also
>>>>introduce them to the Quad Controller for the 360 -- they may 
>>>>have a "cheat"
>>>>or something that would allow someone to override an instrument (stranger
>>>>things have been put in games).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Now this discussion is kind of cool and super fun -- maybe we should start
>>>>brainstorming on a game every other week where we know we have a friendly
>>>>person in a high powered position who could make things happen. We could
>>>>advert it on forums and our blogs for more suggestions. Mark and Barrie
>>>>could help us on the blog end of things and I can contact some 
>>>>other groups.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>We could then present them with mini-usability reports and if they are
>>>>interested in more info/help then they can help support the GA-SIG
>>>>foundation (our soon-to-be-made-real non-profit) where we could earmark for
>>>>travel scholarships for SIG members to conferences like the GDC where they
>>>>are speakers, etc. It's a bird...It's a plane...no...It's "SIG PROJECT
>>>>PRACTICAL!!!!!"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I'm trying to set up a meeting with Alex and the Harmonix gang at GDC so we
>>>>can show them the controllers, Eelke's haptic solution for the blind, how
>>>>they are used, and discuss things further. Who doesn't want to ROCK after
>>>>all? Beethoven was deaf -- and yet it was a rockstar back in his day. ;)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Let me see if I can get a couple kits if we sign our lives away and promise
>>>>not to resell them on ebay.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Trust me on this one -- we have already benefited from the private
>>>>generosity of Harmonix employees who dig our work. I can't say 
>>>>much more but
>>>>trust me -- I know.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Michelle
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>games_access mailing list
>>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>--
>>>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>Eelke Folmer                           Assistant Professor
>>>Department of CS&E/171
>>>University of Nevada              Reno, Nevada 89557
>>>Game interaction design        www.helpyouplay.com
>>>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>games_access mailing list
>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>.......................................
>>these are mediocre times and people are
>>losing hope. it's hard for many people
>>to believe that there are extraordinary
>>things inside themselves, as well as
>>others. i hope you can keep an open
>>mind.
>>-- "unbreakable"
>>.......................................
>>_______________________________________________
>>games_access mailing list
>>games_access at igda.org
>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access



From hinn at uiuc.edu  Mon Dec 17 11:13:22 2007
From: hinn at uiuc.edu (d. michelle hinn)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 10:13:22 -0600
Subject: [games_access] SIG Accessibilty Guidelines
In-Reply-To: <56994D0C-3BD8-4418-8A80-4D85312721D7@pininteractive.com>
References: <6.1.0.6.2.20071216174125.01e30c50@enigami.com>
	<56994D0C-3BD8-4418-8A80-4D85312721D7@pininteractive.com>
Message-ID: <p06230908c38c4fbf5bbb@[130.126.29.18]>

Thomas...a few days to write your other thesis??? Either you are the 
fastest researcher/writer ever or we have some major differences in 
what goes into a thesis. My master's thesis took a year (year two of 
a two year program where I was also still taking classes)...we won't 
go into my doctoral dissertation ;)

:D

Michelle (I mean no harm -- I'm just amazed at that turn around time! 
Was torture involved?)

>Hello John
>
>I'm going to bold and say my thesis won't take forever. (I wrote 
>another thesis, although smaller in just a few days).
>
>I'm planning to contact you and others in the SIG: I just wanted to 
>start with models based on Terraformers which I already had, just 
>made some corrections. This is to give you all an idea of what GAIM 
>is aiming for
>
>Great that you plan to do guidelines of your own, but if we can 
>cooperate it's even better. Perhaps agree on UML formats etc. What's 
>your e-mail adress so I can contact you off list?
>
>My plan is to include all contributors in GAIM, right now there's a 
>placeholder tag in the main GAIM doc for contributors.
>
>I've also created a Creative Commons License for GAIM, with
>BY - Author credits, just to get sure people give some creds to the 
>contributors
>NC - No commercial, unless asked for
>SA - Share alike, so people can extend my work if they share alike their work
>
>Thanks
>Thomas
>
>
>16 dec 2007 kl. 23.48 skrev John Bannick:
>
>>It looks like Thomas' GAIM project and the associated discussion 
>>could eventually result is some sort of practical SIG guidelines.
>>
>>Since that could take awhile (my thesis took forever) I'm going to 
>>go ahead on my own and try to assemble a succinct and practical set 
>>of guidelines for our own company.
>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access



From richard at audiogames.net  Mon Dec 17 11:18:38 2007
From: richard at audiogames.net (AudioGames.net)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 17:18:38 +0100
Subject: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!
References: <20071216023137.AZG77925@expms2.cites.uiuc.edu><A5950742-4004-4E6C-9CB0-530A23F54808@pininteractive.com><009901c84092$81f13290$6402a8c0@Delletje>
	<a6673b8d0712170733xc802ddbre63b8222177f1e8c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001901c840c8$7ca2f3b0$6402a8c0@Delletje>

Hi Reid,

Don't get me wrong, I'm all up for putting ALL ideas on the table and 
looking at their possibilities, including whatever ideas that may seem weird 
of stupid at first. But we're allowed to discuss those possibilities, aren't 
we? It is just my opinion that I think that an eyebrow-controller can be 
quite tiring and maybe not as accurate as some of the other ideas ;) That is 
all. What's wrong with that?!

Greets,

Richard







----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Reid Kimball" <reid at rbkdesign.com>
To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 4:33 PM
Subject: Re: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!


> This is what everyone said about the Wii before it came out. "My arms
> are going to be so tired." A year later, it's still selling like crazy
> and very hard to find in stores.
> (http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=16640) Disabled
> players have so few options these days and we aren't the customer,
> they are. Richard, you may get tired, but maybe not other people?
>
> At this point, we should put all ideas on the table and see which ones
> float to the top after brainstorming.
>
> -Reid
>
> On Dec 17, 2007 1:52 AM, AudioGames.net <richard at audiogames.net> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> Interesting suggestion, Thomas. I think what needs to be taken into 
>> account
>> is that timing and control are very important factors for musical 
>> expressing
>> through a rythm intrument. I think it is very, very hard to do a good 
>> beat
>> with your eyebrows. I'm pretty good at timing, but I simply can't
>> raise/lower my eyebrows fast enough. I just tried "We Will Rock You" and
>> next to a headache*, I though it was very tiring and was glad the song 
>> was
>> over ;) I can't imagine me doing this a whole session with multiple 
>> songs. I
>> think the same might go for using cameras and head-bob-recognition. It 
>> all
>> depends on how you set it up of course, and how much 'bob' will cause a
>> trigger. But I foresee that if it's a 'big bob'**, players will easily 
>> get
>> tired*** which is not something I think you want to cause with a game.
>>
>> Greets,
>>
>> Richard
>>
>>
>> * which could be related to last night's party but still ;)
>> ** oh boy
>> *** and nausious* ;)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Thomas Westin" <thomas at pininteractive.com>
>> To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
>>
>> Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 10:29 AM
>> Subject: Re: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!
>>
>>
>> > how about using a Cyberlink to control the pedal input; simply mapping 
>> > it
>> > to raising eyebrows for instance
>> >
>> > /Thomas
>> >
>> > 16 dec 2007 kl. 09.31 skrev <hinn at uiuc.edu> <hinn at uiuc.edu>:
>> >
>> >> Hey --
>> >>
>> >> The main issue is that they cannot use the foot pedal but they can 
>> >> use
>> >> the drum pad (the other four inputs) using the drum sticks --  they 
>> >> are
>> >> paraplegic and not quadriplegic...although Harmonix would  like to 
>> >> know
>> >> solution ideas for quadriplegic gamers as well!
>> >>
>> >> I have asked to see if we could get into the source code if we sign 
>> >> away
>> >> our lives -- worst case he just says "no way." And that's cool.  I can
>> >> understand keeping the code close to the vest. Doesn't hurt to 
>> >> propose
>> >> it though.
>> >>
>> >> At the party I was at last night, it took 2-3 people without  mobility
>> >> disabilities to play the drum on "easy" mode. So add in any  mobility
>> >> disability and it's even tougher!
>> >>
>> >> Another thing to think about is solo practice -- you can go through 
>> >> the
>> >> game just playing the drum with AI players. So there is a loss  of
>> >> independence for paraplegic gamers who would have to get a friend  to
>> >> "drum" with them. So they get used to each other's cues and
>> >> styles...what happens at a party when the friend might not be there 
>> >> and
>> >> a "substitute" second person is needed. It's not absolutely  critical 
>> >> but
>> >> it can get annoying to get used to someone else who is  essentially a
>> >> part of your "skills" package -- after all, a lot of  (most?) people
>> >> practice on their own so that they can keep up with  and/or beat the 
>> >> crap
>> >> out of their fellow game players.  Yeah...rockband IS about
>> >> collaboration...but...when the scores came  up, there was always 
>> >> clearly
>> >> "the winner." :)
>> >>
>> >> Did I mention that I think this discussion is really cool? ;)
>> >>
>> >> Michelle
>> >>
>> >> ---- Original message ----
>> >>> Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 00:10:01 -0800
>> >>> From: "Eelke Folmer" <eelke.folmer at gmail.com>
>> >>> Subject: Re: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!
>> >>> To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" 
>> >>> <games_access at igda.org
>> >>> >
>> >>>
>> >>> Hey,
>> >>>
>> >>> Interesting problem, maybe a viable strategy would be to find the
>> >>> gross or lowest denominator of the amount of interaction that a
>> >>> paraplegic could provide; e.g. if this is a one switch you obviously
>> >>> have a hard time providing five different inputs. Some amount of
>> >>> interaction has to go or be automated.
>> >>>
>> >>> I assume we will not be able to modify the existing source code and
>> >>> hence a solution must be found in the hardware. If you want to
>> >>> automate particular drum beats there is no way to get this 
>> >>> information
>> >>> through a controller unless you would be using a videocamera that
>> >>> would monitor the screen to see which buttons need to be pressed.
>> >>>
>> >>> I propose a simple solution:
>> >>>
>> >>> just splitting up the drums (physically) into a part (1-5) drums that
>> >>> can be played by a paraplegic and the other part (1-5) shall be 
>> >>> played
>> >>> by another human. You need 4 people anyway so finding a 5th should 
>> >>> not
>> >>> be a problem. If the paraplegic is unable to drum but can only use 
>> >>> sip
>> >>> and puff i would suggest splitting up the controller for the drums in
>> >>> a sipp and puff part and the remaining drum parts.
>> >>>
>> >>> Cheers Eelke
>> >>>
>> >>> On 15/12/2007, d. michelle hinn <hinn at uiuc.edu> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Hey Mike --
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> The automation of inputs sounds like an excellent idea.  I think 
>> >>>> you'd
>> >>>> want it generic and per-input though and be clear that it's not 
>> >>>> *just*
>> >>>> the foot pedal that could be problematic. e.g. Def Leopard's Rick
>> >>>> Allen could easily handle the bass pedal (and a few more), but one 
>> >>>> of
>> >>>> the pads might be a pain to hit simultaneously with another one.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Yep, I was thinking about Rick Allen -- I'll have to do some 
>> >>>> surfing
>> >>>> to give
>> >>>> them some links on how drummers with mobility disabilities and
>> >>>> amputees
>> >>>> trick out their drum kits for their own personal situation. That 
>> >>>> might
>> >>>> give
>> >>>> Rock Band another source for information (actually...I'm wondering 
>> >>>> if
>> >>>> we
>> >>>> could get Rick Allen in on the accessible drum kit? I know that  the
>> >>>> Harmonix
>> >>>> guys know some of the band contacts. I'm serious! How cool would 
>> >>>> that
>> >>>> be to
>> >>>> be able to buy a special edition Rick Allen controller that could be
>> >>>> reconfigured to work with switches and so forth? For info on his
>> >>>> custom kit:
>> >>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Allen_%28drummer%29
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I've only played the original GH briefly - do these games identify 
>> >>>> the
>> >>>> different players at the start of the game?  Tying such settings to
>> >>>> individual users/names would be nice, so that if you're taking turns
>> >>>> it'd automatically reconfigure itself for each person once those
>> >>>> configurations are set and keep the accounts/configurations around 
>> >>>> as
>> >>>> options for future gaming sessions.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Yes, you pick your own player and name them (and then you can 
>> >>>> outfit
>> >>>> them
>> >>>> with cooler clothes and instruments when you earn cash from gigs) 
>> >>>> and
>> >>>> it
>> >>>> saves your progress and such. So I would think saving accessibility
>> >>>> configurations would be pretty easy.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> As far as hardware - if they provided a way to use a generic
>> >>>> controller instead of the custom ones (e.g. use a standard gamepad
>> >>>> instead of the guitar for instance, where the whammy bar became the
>> >>>> joystick), and in software allowed for remapping of the generic
>> >>>> controller's inputs and to the expected inputs of the custom
>> >>>> controller, then that should allow people to use things like the
>> >>>> QuadControl.com's controller to play, wouldn't it? Anything
>> >>>> excessively hard to do with such a controller could be switched to
>> >>>> "automatic mode" in the software? Making these configurations also
>> >>>> per-user as above would be nice as well.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Hmm...yeah there is no way to play without a USB
>> >>>> controller...but...I'm
>> >>>> wondering if one of Barrie's USB controllers might be "tricked" to
>> >>>> work with
>> >>>> Rock Band -- I mean they already need a hub to fit four  instruments 
>> >>>> so
>> >>>> one
>> >>>> of those could be an accessible controller...and then someone with
>> >>>> different
>> >>>> mobility issues might be able to play with a hacked controller
>> >>>> connected to
>> >>>> five switches (four for the drum pad and one for the pedal. I'll 
>> >>>> also
>> >>>> introduce them to the Quad Controller for the 360 -- they may have 
>> >>>> a
>> >>>> "cheat"
>> >>>> or something that would allow someone to override an instrument
>> >>>> (stranger
>> >>>> things have been put in games).
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Now this discussion is kind of cool and super fun -- maybe we 
>> >>>> should
>> >>>> start
>> >>>> brainstorming on a game every other week where we know we have a
>> >>>> friendly
>> >>>> person in a high powered position who could make things happen. We
>> >>>> could
>> >>>> advert it on forums and our blogs for more suggestions. Mark and
>> >>>> Barrie
>> >>>> could help us on the blog end of things and I can contact some 
>> >>>> other
>> >>>> groups.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> We could then present them with mini-usability reports and if they 
>> >>>> are
>> >>>> interested in more info/help then they can help support the GA-SIG
>> >>>> foundation (our soon-to-be-made-real non-profit) where we could
>> >>>> earmark for
>> >>>> travel scholarships for SIG members to conferences like the GDC 
>> >>>> where
>> >>>> they
>> >>>> are speakers, etc. It's a bird...It's a plane...no...It's "SIG 
>> >>>> PROJECT
>> >>>> PRACTICAL!!!!!"
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I'm trying to set up a meeting with Alex and the Harmonix gang at 
>> >>>> GDC
>> >>>> so we
>> >>>> can show them the controllers, Eelke's haptic solution for the 
>> >>>> blind,
>> >>>> how
>> >>>> they are used, and discuss things further. Who doesn't want to  ROCK
>> >>>> after
>> >>>> all? Beethoven was deaf -- and yet it was a rockstar back in his 
>> >>>> day.
>> >>>> ;)
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Let me see if I can get a couple kits if we sign our lives away  and
>> >>>> promise
>> >>>> not to resell them on ebay.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Trust me on this one -- we have already benefited from the private
>> >>>> generosity of Harmonix employees who dig our work. I can't say  much
>> >>>> more but
>> >>>> trust me -- I know.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Michelle
>> >>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>> games_access mailing list
>> >>>> games_access at igda.org
>> >>>> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> --
>> >>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>> Eelke Folmer                           Assistant Professor
>> >>> Department of CS&E/171
>> >>> University of Nevada              Reno, Nevada 89557
>> >>> Game interaction design        www.helpyouplay.com
>> >>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> games_access mailing list
>> >>> games_access at igda.org
>> >>> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>> >> .......................................
>> >> these are mediocre times and people are
>> >> losing hope. it's hard for many people
>> >> to believe that there are extraordinary
>> >> things inside themselves, as well as
>> >> others. i hope you can keep an open
>> >> mind.
>> >> -- "unbreakable"
>> >> .......................................
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> games_access mailing list
>> >> games_access at igda.org
>> >> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > games_access mailing list
>> > games_access at igda.org
>> > http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> games_access mailing list
>> games_access at igda.org
>> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access 



From hinn at uiuc.edu  Mon Dec 17 11:56:27 2007
From: hinn at uiuc.edu (d. michelle hinn)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 10:56:27 -0600
Subject: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!
In-Reply-To: <a6673b8d0712170733xc802ddbre63b8222177f1e8c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20071216023137.AZG77925@expms2.cites.uiuc.edu>
	<A5950742-4004-4E6C-9CB0-530A23F54808@pininteractive.com>
	<009901c84092$81f13290$6402a8c0@Delletje>
	<a6673b8d0712170733xc802ddbre63b8222177f1e8c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <p0623090cc38c573e1d83@[130.126.29.18]>

Oh I think Richard might/would agree (I'll let him confirm/deny this 
himself, though -- hehe) -- for those who playing Rock Band wasn't an 
option AT ALL, alternative means help them get into the fun! We just 
have to remember that since this is a band sim some gamers -- with 
and without disabilities -- are going to want to really physically 
play out the sim as much as possible. We just have to think through 
the advantages (being able to participate) and disadvantages (not 
being able to ROCK -- ok, I'm getting carried away with the whole 
ROCK thing) of everything on our palette of choices. :) But that's 
what makes this such an interesting issue!

Don't forget -- the offer of a kit for tinkering/development purposes 
is on the table for those with the know how. I see that it's not 
coming out for the UK/Europe until March 6th but he might be able to 
send a kit out before the sell date...if not, then definitely after. 
It will be out for the PS2, PS3, and Xbox 360 on the same day.

Michelle

>This is what everyone said about the Wii before it came out. "My arms
>are going to be so tired." A year later, it's still selling like crazy
>and very hard to find in stores.
>(http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=16640) Disabled
>players have so few options these days and we aren't the customer,
>they are. Richard, you may get tired, but maybe not other people?
>
>At this point, we should put all ideas on the table and see which ones
>float to the top after brainstorming.
>
>-Reid
>
>On Dec 17, 2007 1:52 AM, AudioGames.net <richard at audiogames.net> wrote:
>>  Hi,
>>
>>  Interesting suggestion, Thomas. I think what needs to be taken into account
>>  is that timing and control are very important factors for musical expressing
>>  through a rythm intrument. I think it is very, very hard to do a good beat
>>  with your eyebrows. I'm pretty good at timing, but I simply can't
>>  raise/lower my eyebrows fast enough. I just tried "We Will Rock You" and
>>  next to a headache*, I though it was very tiring and was glad the song was
>>  over ;) I can't imagine me doing this a whole session with multiple songs. I
>>  think the same might go for using cameras and head-bob-recognition. It all
>>  depends on how you set it up of course, and how much 'bob' will cause a
>>  trigger. But I foresee that if it's a 'big bob'**, players will easily get
>>  tired*** which is not something I think you want to cause with a game.
>>
>>  Greets,
>>
>>  Richard
>>
>>
>>  * which could be related to last night's party but still ;)
>>  ** oh boy
>>  *** and nausious* ;)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  ----- Original Message -----
>>  From: "Thomas Westin" <thomas at pininteractive.com>
>>  To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
>>
>>  Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 10:29 AM
>>  Subject: Re: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!
>>
>>
>>  > how about using a Cyberlink to control the pedal input; simply mapping  it
>>  > to raising eyebrows for instance
>>  >
>>  > /Thomas
>>  >
>>  > 16 dec 2007 kl. 09.31 skrev <hinn at uiuc.edu> <hinn at uiuc.edu>:
>>  >
>>  >> Hey --
>>  >>
>>  >> The main issue is that they cannot use the foot pedal but they can  use
>>  >> the drum pad (the other four inputs) using the drum sticks --  they are
>>  >> paraplegic and not quadriplegic...although Harmonix would  like to know
>>  >> solution ideas for quadriplegic gamers as well!
>>  >>
>>  >> I have asked to see if we could get into the source code if we sign  away
>>  >> our lives -- worst case he just says "no way." And that's cool.  I can
>>  >> understand keeping the code close to the vest. Doesn't hurt to  propose
>>  >> it though.
>>  >>
>>  >> At the party I was at last night, it took 2-3 people without  mobility
>>  >> disabilities to play the drum on "easy" mode. So add in any  mobility
>>  >> disability and it's even tougher!
>>  >>
>>  >> Another thing to think about is solo practice -- you can go through  the
>>  >> game just playing the drum with AI players. So there is a loss  of
>  > >> independence for paraplegic gamers who would have to get a friend  to
>>  >> "drum" with them. So they get used to each other's cues and
>>  >> styles...what happens at a party when the friend might not be there  and
>>  >> a "substitute" second person is needed. It's not absolutely  critical but
>>  >> it can get annoying to get used to someone else who is  essentially a
>>  >> part of your "skills" package -- after all, a lot of  (most?) people
>>  >> practice on their own so that they can keep up with  and/or beat the crap
>>  >> out of their fellow game players.  Yeah...rockband IS about
>>  >> collaboration...but...when the scores came  up, there was always clearly
>>  >> "the winner." :)
>>  >>
>>  >> Did I mention that I think this discussion is really cool? ;)
>>  >>
>>  >> Michelle
>>  >>
>>  >> ---- Original message ----
>>  >>> Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 00:10:01 -0800
>>  >>> From: "Eelke Folmer" <eelke.folmer at gmail.com>
>>  >>> Subject: Re: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!
>>  >>> To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org
>>  >>> >
>>  >>>
>>  >>> Hey,
>>  >>>
>>  >>> Interesting problem, maybe a viable strategy would be to find the
>>  >>> gross or lowest denominator of the amount of interaction that a
>>  >>> paraplegic could provide; e.g. if this is a one switch you obviously
>>  >>> have a hard time providing five different inputs. Some amount of
>>  >>> interaction has to go or be automated.
>>  >>>
>>  >>> I assume we will not be able to modify the existing source code and
>>  >>> hence a solution must be found in the hardware. If you want to
>>  >>> automate particular drum beats there is no way to get this  information
>>  >>> through a controller unless you would be using a videocamera that
>>  >>> would monitor the screen to see which buttons need to be pressed.
>>  >>>
>>  >>> I propose a simple solution:
>>  >>>
>>  >>> just splitting up the drums (physically) into a part (1-5) drums that
>>  >>> can be played by a paraplegic and the other part (1-5) shall be  played
>>  >>> by another human. You need 4 people anyway so finding a 5th should  not
>>  >>> be a problem. If the paraplegic is unable to drum but can only use  sip
>>  >>> and puff i would suggest splitting up the controller for the drums in
>>  >>> a sipp and puff part and the remaining drum parts.
>>  >>>
>>  >>> Cheers Eelke
>>  >>>
>>  >>> On 15/12/2007, d. michelle hinn <hinn at uiuc.edu> wrote:
>>  >>>>
>>  >>>>
>>  >>>> Hey Mike --
>>  >>>>
>>  >>>>
>>  >>>> The automation of inputs sounds like an excellent idea.  I think  you'd
>>  >>>> want it generic and per-input though and be clear that it's not  *just*
>>  >>>> the foot pedal that could be problematic. e.g. Def Leopard's Rick
>>  >>>> Allen could easily handle the bass pedal (and a few more), but one  of
>>  >>>> the pads might be a pain to hit simultaneously with another one.
>>  >>>>
>>  >>>>
>>  >>>> Yep, I was thinking about Rick Allen -- I'll have to do some  surfing
>>  >>>> to give
>>  >>>> them some links on how drummers with mobility disabilities and
>>  >>>> amputees
>>  >>>> trick out their drum kits for their own personal situation. That  might
>>  >>>> give
>>  >>>> Rock Band another source for information (actually...I'm wondering  if
>>  >>>> we
>>  >>>> could get Rick Allen in on the accessible drum kit? I know that  the
>>  >>>> Harmonix
>>  >>>> guys know some of the band contacts. I'm serious! How cool would  that
>>  >>>> be to
>>  >>>> be able to buy a special edition Rick Allen controller that could be
>>  >>>> reconfigured to work with switches and so forth? For info on his
>>  >>>> custom kit:
>>  >>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Allen_%28drummer%29
>>  >>>>
>>  >>>>
>>  >>>> I've only played the original GH briefly - do these games identify  the
>>  >>>> different players at the start of the game?  Tying such settings to
>>  >>>> individual users/names would be nice, so that if you're taking turns
>>  >>>> it'd automatically reconfigure itself for each person once those
>>  >>>> configurations are set and keep the accounts/configurations around  as
>>  >>>> options for future gaming sessions.
>>  >>>>
>>  >>>>
>>  >>>> Yes, you pick your own player and name them (and then you can  outfit
>  > >>>> them
>>  >>>> with cooler clothes and instruments when you earn cash from gigs)  and
>>  >>>> it
>>  >>>> saves your progress and such. So I would think saving accessibility
>>  >>>> configurations would be pretty easy.
>>  >>>>
>>  >>>>
>>  >>>> As far as hardware - if they provided a way to use a generic
>>  >>>> controller instead of the custom ones (e.g. use a standard gamepad
>>  >>>> instead of the guitar for instance, where the whammy bar became the
>>  >>>> joystick), and in software allowed for remapping of the generic
>>  >>>> controller's inputs and to the expected inputs of the custom
>>  >>>> controller, then that should allow people to use things like the
>>  >>>> QuadControl.com's controller to play, wouldn't it? Anything
>>  >>>> excessively hard to do with such a controller could be switched to
>>  >>>> "automatic mode" in the software? Making these configurations also
>>  >>>> per-user as above would be nice as well.
>>  >>>>
>>  >>>>
>>  >>>> Hmm...yeah there is no way to play without a USB
>>  >>>> controller...but...I'm
>>  >>>> wondering if one of Barrie's USB controllers might be "tricked" to
>>  >>>> work with
>>  >>>> Rock Band -- I mean they already need a hub to fit four  instruments so
>>  >>>> one
>>  >>>> of those could be an accessible controller...and then someone with
>>  >>>> different
>>  >>>> mobility issues might be able to play with a hacked controller
>>  >>>> connected to
>>  >>>> five switches (four for the drum pad and one for the pedal. I'll  also
>>  >>>> introduce them to the Quad Controller for the 360 -- they may have  a
>>  >>>> "cheat"
>>  >>>> or something that would allow someone to override an instrument
>>  >>>> (stranger
>>  >>>> things have been put in games).
>>  >>>>
>>  >>>>
>>  >>>> Now this discussion is kind of cool and super fun -- maybe we  should
>>  >>>> start
>>  >>>> brainstorming on a game every other week where we know we have a
>>  >>>> friendly
>>  >>>> person in a high powered position who could make things happen. We
>>  >>>> could
>>  >>>> advert it on forums and our blogs for more suggestions. Mark and
>>  >>>> Barrie
>>  >>>> could help us on the blog end of things and I can contact some  other
>>  >>>> groups.
>>  >>>>
>>  >>>>
>>  >>>> We could then present them with mini-usability reports and if they  are
>>  >>>> interested in more info/help then they can help support the GA-SIG
>>  >>>> foundation (our soon-to-be-made-real non-profit) where we could
>>  >>>> earmark for
>>  >>>> travel scholarships for SIG members to conferences like the GDC  where
>>  >>>> they
>>  >>>> are speakers, etc. It's a bird...It's a plane...no...It's "SIG  PROJECT
>>  >>>> PRACTICAL!!!!!"
>>  >>>>
>>  >>>>
>>  >>>> I'm trying to set up a meeting with Alex and the Harmonix gang at  GDC
>>  >>>> so we
>>  >>>> can show them the controllers, Eelke's haptic solution for the  blind,
>>  >>>> how
>>  >>>> they are used, and discuss things further. Who doesn't want to  ROCK
>>  >>>> after
>>  >>>> all? Beethoven was deaf -- and yet it was a rockstar back in his  day.
>>  >>>> ;)
>>  >>>>
>>  >>>>
>>  >>>> Let me see if I can get a couple kits if we sign our lives away  and
>>  >>>> promise
>>  >>>> not to resell them on ebay.
>>  >>>>
>>  >>>>
>>  >>>> Trust me on this one -- we have already benefited from the private
>>  >>>> generosity of Harmonix employees who dig our work. I can't say  much
>>  >>>> more but
>>  >>>> trust me -- I know.
>>  >>>>
>>  >>>>
>>  >>>> Michelle
>>  >>>> _______________________________________________
>>  >>>> games_access mailing list
>>  >>>> games_access at igda.org
>>  >>>> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>  >>>>
>>  >>>>
>>  >>>
>>  >>>
>>  >>> --
>>  >>> 
>>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>  >>> Eelke Folmer                           Assistant Professor
>>  >>> Department of CS&E/171
>>  >>> University of Nevada              Reno, Nevada 89557
>>  >>> Game interaction design        www.helpyouplay.com
>>  >>> 
>>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>  >>> _______________________________________________
>>  >>> games_access mailing list
>>  >>> games_access at igda.org
>>  >>> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>  > >> .......................................
>>  >> these are mediocre times and people are
>>  >> losing hope. it's hard for many people
>>  >> to believe that there are extraordinary
>>  >> things inside themselves, as well as
>>  >> others. i hope you can keep an open
>>  >> mind.
>>  >> -- "unbreakable"
>>  >> .......................................
>>  >> _______________________________________________
>>  >> games_access mailing list
>>  >> games_access at igda.org
>>  >> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>  >
>>  > _______________________________________________
>>  > games_access mailing list
>>  > games_access at igda.org
>>  > http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>
>>  _______________________________________________
>>  games_access mailing list
>>  games_access at igda.org
>>  http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access



From barrie.ellis at oneswitch.org.uk  Mon Dec 17 13:50:21 2007
From: barrie.ellis at oneswitch.org.uk (Barrie Ellis)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 18:50:21 -0000
Subject: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!
Message-ID: <077901c840dd$adb3c910$0202a8c0@oneswitch>

My thoughts for Rock Band...

Software solution would be very nice.

Auto-Kick Drum would be pretty simple to implement (please don't shoot me, 
Reid!) to my mind. As soon as a drum kick is called for - the software could 
automatically trigger one in perfect timing.

Reduced controls mode. Taking this further would be lovely too. Why not 
allow the kick-drum to be triggered by any of the other controls? So if you 
hit a snare (or any other drum control), if this is in time for the 
drum-kick - that will be accepted.

Super Reduced controls mode. I really liked Um Jammer Lammy for the PSone. 
This was the follow up to Parappa the Rapper (the original inspiration for 
all of these music based Simon Says games). This required about six or so 
buttons to play the guitar. The simple mode allowed you to hit any button at 
all - which if in time - would be accepted.


Hardware solutions.

What is the software looking for? An analogue pedal or a digital pedal. 
I.e. - does it matter how hard you step on it - or is it a simple on/off 
switch? If it's okay to be treated as an on/off switch this is pretty 
simple. If they've not developed the hardware completely yet - why not make 
it connect to the main drum kit via a 3.5mm mono socket and plug (the 
accessibility switch standard) with the kick drum acting as a press to make 
switch. From there, users could plug in one of hundreds of different 
accessibility controls (blink switches, extra head switches and so on).

If it's analogue - you may still find that adding a 3.5mm stereo socket and 
plug might offer a solution - if you can provide some compatibility with 
standard accessibility switches.


Finally - I'd be happy to look at the set-up - and even offer to adapt 
existing set-ups. I'm sure there'll be others on this list and elsewhere 
that would do the same too - perhaps following an easy D.I.Y. guide 
somewhere....


Barrie
www.OneSwitch.org.uk

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From richard at audiogames.net  Mon Dec 17 14:02:51 2007
From: richard at audiogames.net (AudioGames.net)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 20:02:51 +0100
Subject: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!
References: <077901c840dd$adb3c910$0202a8c0@oneswitch>
Message-ID: <001501c840df$6dafc6a0$6402a8c0@Delletje>

Hi,

Thanks for your thoughts. I was wondering: let's say there is the possibility of your described hardware solution (3.5 mm mono socket and plug in any piece of trigger of choice). Based on your experience in this field, what kind of trigger solution (button, blink switch, head switch, flex switch?) would you recommend for this context?

Greets,

Richard
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Barrie Ellis 
  To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List 
  Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 7:50 PM
  Subject: Re: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!


  My thoughts for Rock Band...

  Software solution would be very nice.

  Auto-Kick Drum would be pretty simple to implement (please don't shoot me, 
  Reid!) to my mind. As soon as a drum kick is called for - the software could 
  automatically trigger one in perfect timing.

  Reduced controls mode. Taking this further would be lovely too. Why not 
  allow the kick-drum to be triggered by any of the other controls? So if you 
  hit a snare (or any other drum control), if this is in time for the 
  drum-kick - that will be accepted.

  Super Reduced controls mode. I really liked Um Jammer Lammy for the PSone. 
  This was the follow up to Parappa the Rapper (the original inspiration for 
  all of these music based Simon Says games). This required about six or so 
  buttons to play the guitar. The simple mode allowed you to hit any button at 
  all - which if in time - would be accepted.


  Hardware solutions.

  What is the software looking for? An analogue pedal or a digital pedal. 
  I.e. - does it matter how hard you step on it - or is it a simple on/off 
  switch? If it's okay to be treated as an on/off switch this is pretty 
  simple. If they've not developed the hardware completely yet - why not make 
  it connect to the main drum kit via a 3.5mm mono socket and plug (the 
  accessibility switch standard) with the kick drum acting as a press to make 
  switch. From there, users could plug in one of hundreds of different 
  accessibility controls (blink switches, extra head switches and so on).

  If it's analogue - you may still find that adding a 3.5mm stereo socket and 
  plug might offer a solution - if you can provide some compatibility with 
  standard accessibility switches.


  Finally - I'd be happy to look at the set-up - and even offer to adapt 
  existing set-ups. I'm sure there'll be others on this list and elsewhere 
  that would do the same too - perhaps following an easy D.I.Y. guide 
  somewhere....


  Barrie
  www.OneSwitch.org.uk




------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  games_access mailing list
  games_access at igda.org
  http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
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From hinn at uiuc.edu  Mon Dec 17 14:25:43 2007
From: hinn at uiuc.edu (d. michelle hinn)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 13:25:43 -0600
Subject: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!
In-Reply-To: <077901c840dd$adb3c910$0202a8c0@oneswitch>
References: <077901c840dd$adb3c910$0202a8c0@oneswitch>
Message-ID: <p0623090ec38c79210ea0@[130.126.29.18]>

Yeah, a software solution would be nice and I think that's what's we 
have time to get into the next version if I'm reading Alex correctly 
and they can pull it off in time.

For right now, though, the way the drum kit is set up it's just a 
matter of stepping on it and not how hard/soft you step on it. I'm 
looking at the wired connection -- it really looks like one of your 
controllers, Barrie, where you've drilled in holes to connect 
switches to.

If I can get my hands on a pre-release (or release date) UK/Europe 
version of "rock band" for you to mod, which console would work best? 
I'm assuming PS2 because I know you work on controls for that but I'm 
not sure if you work with Xbox 360 or PS3 as well. Given that a large 
(most?) alt controllers have been modded for the PS2, I'm thinking 
that would be the console to start with anyway.

Also -- reduced controls mode -- sometimes you have to hit two drum 
pads AND the pedal at the same time so there's one issue (three 
arms?). But certainly if there were modes that could take away the 
need to use the pedal and/or just, say, be about the rhythm and not 
about the exact buttons/drum pads hit, that would probably help a LOT 
of people. I mean, seriously, it took THREE people who did not have 
any mobility limitations to make sure it wasn't the drumming that 
knocked the band out of the game (if an instrument gets too low on 
the "good" scale it gets knocked out and/or can knock you out of the 
game entirely if the singer and the guitar player(s) are also 
struggling) -- this was largely due to their not having any musical 
training whatsoever so just hitting something/anything correctly was 
a "win."

Anyway...so that software solution idea may just help a whole lot of 
people -- especially in a party situation where drinking is 
involved... Some other things that they will be concerned with is 
online play but it already tells others that you are playing 
easy/medium/hard/expert mode so it could also say "modified." Not 
sure if that an acceptable solution...just brainstorming.

Michelle

>My thoughts for Rock Band...
>
>Software solution would be very nice.
>
>Auto-Kick Drum would be pretty simple to implement (please don't shoot me,
>Reid!) to my mind. As soon as a drum kick is called for - the software could
>automatically trigger one in perfect timing.
>
>Reduced controls mode. Taking this further would be lovely too. Why not
>allow the kick-drum to be triggered by any of the other controls? So if you
>hit a snare (or any other drum control), if this is in time for the
>drum-kick - that will be accepted.
>
>Super Reduced controls mode. I really liked Um Jammer Lammy for the PSone.
>This was the follow up to Parappa the Rapper (the original inspiration for
>all of these music based Simon Says games). This required about six or so
>buttons to play the guitar. The simple mode allowed you to hit any button at
>all - which if in time - would be accepted.
>
>
>Hardware solutions.
>
>What is the software looking for? An analogue pedal or a digital pedal.
>I.e. - does it matter how hard you step on it - or is it a simple on/off
>switch? If it's okay to be treated as an on/off switch this is pretty
>simple. If they've not developed the hardware completely yet - why not make
>it connect to the main drum kit via a 3.5mm mono socket and plug (the
>accessibility switch standard) with the kick drum acting as a press to make
>switch. From there, users could plug in one of hundreds of different
>accessibility controls (blink switches, extra head switches and so on).
>
>If it's analogue - you may still find that adding a 3.5mm stereo socket and
>plug might offer a solution - if you can provide some compatibility with
>standard accessibility switches.
>
>
>Finally - I'd be happy to look at the set-up - and even offer to adapt
>existing set-ups. I'm sure there'll be others on this list and elsewhere
>that would do the same too - perhaps following an easy D.I.Y. guide
>somewhere....
>
>
>Barrie
><>www.OneSwitch.org.uk
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
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From barrie.ellis at oneswitch.org.uk  Mon Dec 17 14:30:02 2007
From: barrie.ellis at oneswitch.org.uk (Barrie Ellis)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 19:30:02 -0000
Subject: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!
References: <077901c840dd$adb3c910$0202a8c0@oneswitch>
	<001501c840df$6dafc6a0$6402a8c0@Delletje>
Message-ID: <079d01c840e3$3904d130$0202a8c0@oneswitch>

Hi,

Depends on the individual's ability to be honest. It would need to be something that could be controlled quite deliberately with a quick on/off response. I don't think mind-control would be fast enough - I think I'd have a seizure trying to do it that way. I think sip/puff will be problematic for some people for all the reasons previously mentioned. I am aware of a fantastic blow switch that might work really well in this instance, but I've signed a non-disclosure with the inventor - might be worth contacting him if Harmonix are at all interested. It could be a good thing all round. A Blink switch could work but these are expensive (?200ish - see www.xe.com for a currency conversion).

I think an additional push button switch (of which there are many: http://www.oneswitch.org.uk/1/AGS/AGS-switch/1/switches.htm) might be the most affordable and acceptable solution - as you could position this to suit the individual - I guess in some ways, as Rick Allen has done so, as previously mentioned (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Allen_(drummer)). I'm not a drummer though, so don't know how much variation there is with a kick-drum. I guess you can use it fairly softly - up to a maximum stomp-thump of the drum.

What about a MIDI module for the games? Then you could connect any of a massive range of MIDI musical instrument controllers to suit the individuals:

http://www.midicreator.com/products/MIDIcreator.pdf 
http://www.soundware.co.uk/sc/sections/Midi%20Drum%20Pads
http://www.soundbeam.co.uk/
http://www.optimusic.com/

Not the cheapest solution perhaps, but likely the best.

Barrie




  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: AudioGames.net 
  To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List 
  Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 7:02 PM
  Subject: Re: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!


  Hi,

  Thanks for your thoughts. I was wondering: let's say there is the possibility of your described hardware solution (3.5 mm mono socket and plug in any piece of trigger of choice). Based on your experience in this field, what kind of trigger solution (button, blink switch, head switch, flex switch?) would you recommend for this context?

  Greets,

  Richard
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Barrie Ellis 
    To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List 
    Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 7:50 PM
    Subject: Re: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!


    My thoughts for Rock Band...

    Software solution would be very nice.

    Auto-Kick Drum would be pretty simple to implement (please don't shoot me, 
    Reid!) to my mind. As soon as a drum kick is called for - the software could 
    automatically trigger one in perfect timing.

    Reduced controls mode. Taking this further would be lovely too. Why not 
    allow the kick-drum to be triggered by any of the other controls? So if you 
    hit a snare (or any other drum control), if this is in time for the 
    drum-kick - that will be accepted.

    Super Reduced controls mode. I really liked Um Jammer Lammy for the PSone. 
    This was the follow up to Parappa the Rapper (the original inspiration for 
    all of these music based Simon Says games). This required about six or so 
    buttons to play the guitar. The simple mode allowed you to hit any button at 
    all - which if in time - would be accepted.


    Hardware solutions.

    What is the software looking for? An analogue pedal or a digital pedal. 
    I.e. - does it matter how hard you step on it - or is it a simple on/off 
    switch? If it's okay to be treated as an on/off switch this is pretty 
    simple. If they've not developed the hardware completely yet - why not make 
    it connect to the main drum kit via a 3.5mm mono socket and plug (the 
    accessibility switch standard) with the kick drum acting as a press to make 
    switch. >From there, users could plug in one of hundreds of different 
    accessibility controls (blink switches, extra head switches and so on).

    If it's analogue - you may still find that adding a 3.5mm stereo socket and 
    plug might offer a solution - if you can provide some compatibility with 
    standard accessibility switches.


    Finally - I'd be happy to look at the set-up - and even offer to adapt 
    existing set-ups. I'm sure there'll be others on this list and elsewhere 
    that would do the same too - perhaps following an easy D.I.Y. guide 
    somewhere....


    Barrie
    www.OneSwitch.org.uk




----------------------------------------------------------------------------


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    http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access



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From barrie.ellis at oneswitch.org.uk  Mon Dec 17 14:51:59 2007
From: barrie.ellis at oneswitch.org.uk (Barrie Ellis)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 19:51:59 -0000
Subject: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!
References: <077901c840dd$adb3c910$0202a8c0@oneswitch>
	<p0623090ec38c79210ea0@[130.126.29.18]>
Message-ID: <07c601c840e6$4aa78f10$0202a8c0@oneswitch>

Re: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!Sounds like the hacked in 3.5mm socket would do the job nicely. I have a PS2, can borrow an Xbox 360 - but have no PS3 access at all I'm afraid:

http://www.meru.org.uk/diy_sam.htm (mouse adaptation with trailing 3.5mm socket)
http://www.oneswitch.org.uk/4/DIY/speech.htm (battery toy adaptation with mounted 3.5mm socket)

Reduced Controls idea. Don't think I explained it well. Here's a slight variation on the idea. Consider the second lowest pitched drum a dual-function drum serving as itself and also the kick-drum when needed. The software would need to anticipate what the drummer is intending through a fairly simple timer (closest to an expected Tom-Tom? Trigger a Tom-Tom - closest to an expected kick-drum? Trigger a Drum-Kick). If two are expected simultaneously - trigger both from the single drum hit. Make more sense? Think this might work out less confusing in practice than it is to explain...

Barrie
 

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: d. michelle hinn 
  To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List 
  Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 7:25 PM
  Subject: Re: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!


  Yeah, a software solution would be nice and I think that's what's we have time to get into the next version if I'm reading Alex correctly and they can pull it off in time.


  For right now, though, the way the drum kit is set up it's just a matter of stepping on it and not how hard/soft you step on it. I'm looking at the wired connection -- it really looks like one of your controllers, Barrie, where you've drilled in holes to connect switches to.


  If I can get my hands on a pre-release (or release date) UK/Europe version of "rock band" for you to mod, which console would work best? I'm assuming PS2 because I know you work on controls for that but I'm not sure if you work with Xbox 360 or PS3 as well. Given that a large (most?) alt controllers have been modded for the PS2, I'm thinking that would be the console to start with anyway.


  Also -- reduced controls mode -- sometimes you have to hit two drum pads AND the pedal at the same time so there's one issue (three arms?). But certainly if there were modes that could take away the need to use the pedal and/or just, say, be about the rhythm and not about the exact buttons/drum pads hit, that would probably help a LOT of people. I mean, seriously, it took THREE people who did not have any mobility limitations to make sure it wasn't the drumming that knocked the band out of the game (if an instrument gets too low on the "good" scale it gets knocked out and/or can knock you out of the game entirely if the singer and the guitar player(s) are also struggling) -- this was largely due to their not having any musical training whatsoever so just hitting something/anything correctly was a "win."


  Anyway...so that software solution idea may just help a whole lot of people -- especially in a party situation where drinking is involved... Some other things that they will be concerned with is online play but it already tells others that you are playing easy/medium/hard/expert mode so it could also say "modified." Not sure if that an acceptable solution...just brainstorming.


  Michelle


    My thoughts for Rock Band...

    Software solution would be very nice.

    Auto-Kick Drum would be pretty simple to implement (please don't shoot me,
    Reid!) to my mind. As soon as a drum kick is called for - the software could
    automatically trigger one in perfect timing.

    Reduced controls mode. Taking this further would be lovely too. Why not
    allow the kick-drum to be triggered by any of the other controls? So if you
    hit a snare (or any other drum control), if this is in time for the
    drum-kick - that will be accepted.

    Super Reduced controls mode. I really liked Um Jammer Lammy for the PSone.
    This was the follow up to Parappa the Rapper (the original inspiration for
    all of these music based Simon Says games). This required about six or so
    buttons to play the guitar. The simple mode allowed you to hit any button at
    all - which if in time - would be accepted.


    Hardware solutions.

    What is the software looking for? An analogue pedal or a digital pedal.
    I.e. - does it matter how hard you step on it - or is it a simple on/off
    switch? If it's okay to be treated as an on/off switch this is pretty
    simple. If they've not developed the hardware completely yet - why not make
    it connect to the main drum kit via a 3.5mm mono socket and plug (the
    accessibility switch standard) with the kick drum acting as a press to make
    switch. From there, users could plug in one of hundreds of different
    accessibility controls (blink switches, extra head switches and so on).

    If it's analogue - you may still find that adding a 3.5mm stereo socket and
    plug might offer a solution - if you can provide some compatibility with
    standard accessibility switches.


    Finally - I'd be happy to look at the set-up - and even offer to adapt
    existing set-ups. I'm sure there'll be others on this list and elsewhere
    that would do the same too - perhaps following an easy D.I.Y. guide
    somewhere....


    Barrie
    www.OneSwitch.org.uk



    _______________________________________________
    games_access mailing list
    games_access at igda.org
    http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access




------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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  games_access mailing list
  games_access at igda.org
  http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
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From richard at audiogames.net  Mon Dec 17 14:55:59 2007
From: richard at audiogames.net (AudioGames.net)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 20:55:59 +0100
Subject: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!
References: <20071216023137.AZG77925@expms2.cites.uiuc.edu><A5950742-4004-4E6C-9CB0-530A23F54808@pininteractive.com>
	<p06230907c38c4b926127@[130.126.29.18]>
Message-ID: <005501c840e6$d9be4400$6402a8c0@Delletje>

Hi

*quote*
> I'll throw this quote in for Sander to see if he's reading: it's "the 
> right to FUN!" :) (other fellow list readers...you have to imagine a tall 
> long haired guy who is in a band in real life growling this like he's 
> "Braveheart." ;) )
*quote end*

Watch Sander and his band here on National Television: 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CponiPfNO8Q

(Sander is the one playing self-made electric upright bass and unfortunately 
only has a couple of shots in this footage) 



From richard at audiogames.net  Mon Dec 17 14:58:08 2007
From: richard at audiogames.net (AudioGames.net)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 20:58:08 +0100
Subject: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!
References: <077901c840dd$adb3c910$0202a8c0@oneswitch>
	<p0623090ec38c79210ea0@[130.126.29.18]>
Message-ID: <007901c840e7$26c84020$6402a8c0@Delletje>

Re: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!Hi,

*quote*
I'm looking at the wired connection -- it really looks like one of your controllers, Barrie, where you've drilled in holes to connect switches to.
*quote end*

You have one at home? Or are you looking at a screenshot or something? Either way, could you send a picture of it? 

Thanks

Ries


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: d. michelle hinn 
  To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List 
  Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 8:25 PM
  Subject: Re: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!


  Yeah, a software solution would be nice and I think that's what's we have time to get into the next version if I'm reading Alex correctly and they can pull it off in time.


  For right now, though, the way the drum kit is set up it's just a matter of stepping on it and not how hard/soft you step on it. I'm looking at the wired connection -- it really looks like one of your controllers, Barrie, where you've drilled in holes to connect switches to.


  If I can get my hands on a pre-release (or release date) UK/Europe version of "rock band" for you to mod, which console would work best? I'm assuming PS2 because I know you work on controls for that but I'm not sure if you work with Xbox 360 or PS3 as well. Given that a large (most?) alt controllers have been modded for the PS2, I'm thinking that would be the console to start with anyway.


  Also -- reduced controls mode -- sometimes you have to hit two drum pads AND the pedal at the same time so there's one issue (three arms?). But certainly if there were modes that could take away the need to use the pedal and/or just, say, be about the rhythm and not about the exact buttons/drum pads hit, that would probably help a LOT of people. I mean, seriously, it took THREE people who did not have any mobility limitations to make sure it wasn't the drumming that knocked the band out of the game (if an instrument gets too low on the "good" scale it gets knocked out and/or can knock you out of the game entirely if the singer and the guitar player(s) are also struggling) -- this was largely due to their not having any musical training whatsoever so just hitting something/anything correctly was a "win."


  Anyway...so that software solution idea may just help a whole lot of people -- especially in a party situation where drinking is involved... Some other things that they will be concerned with is online play but it already tells others that you are playing easy/medium/hard/expert mode so it could also say "modified." Not sure if that an acceptable solution...just brainstorming.


  Michelle


    My thoughts for Rock Band...

    Software solution would be very nice.

    Auto-Kick Drum would be pretty simple to implement (please don't shoot me,
    Reid!) to my mind. As soon as a drum kick is called for - the software could
    automatically trigger one in perfect timing.

    Reduced controls mode. Taking this further would be lovely too. Why not
    allow the kick-drum to be triggered by any of the other controls? So if you
    hit a snare (or any other drum control), if this is in time for the
    drum-kick - that will be accepted.

    Super Reduced controls mode. I really liked Um Jammer Lammy for the PSone.
    This was the follow up to Parappa the Rapper (the original inspiration for
    all of these music based Simon Says games). This required about six or so
    buttons to play the guitar. The simple mode allowed you to hit any button at
    all - which if in time - would be accepted.


    Hardware solutions.

    What is the software looking for? An analogue pedal or a digital pedal.
    I.e. - does it matter how hard you step on it - or is it a simple on/off
    switch? If it's okay to be treated as an on/off switch this is pretty
    simple. If they've not developed the hardware completely yet - why not make
    it connect to the main drum kit via a 3.5mm mono socket and plug (the
    accessibility switch standard) with the kick drum acting as a press to make
    switch. From there, users could plug in one of hundreds of different
    accessibility controls (blink switches, extra head switches and so on).

    If it's analogue - you may still find that adding a 3.5mm stereo socket and
    plug might offer a solution - if you can provide some compatibility with
    standard accessibility switches.


    Finally - I'd be happy to look at the set-up - and even offer to adapt
    existing set-ups. I'm sure there'll be others on this list and elsewhere
    that would do the same too - perhaps following an easy D.I.Y. guide
    somewhere....


    Barrie
    www.OneSwitch.org.uk



    _______________________________________________
    games_access mailing list
    games_access at igda.org
    http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access




------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  games_access mailing list
  games_access at igda.org
  http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
-------------- next part --------------
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From richard at audiogames.net  Mon Dec 17 15:07:09 2007
From: richard at audiogames.net (AudioGames.net)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 21:07:09 +0100
Subject: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!
References: <20071216023137.AZG77925@expms2.cites.uiuc.edu><A5950742-4004-4E6C-9CB0-530A23F54808@pininteractive.com><p06230907c38c4b926127@[130.126.29.18]>
	<005501c840e6$d9be4400$6402a8c0@Delletje>
Message-ID: <008901c840e8$67b9a870$6402a8c0@Delletje>

Or here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6Pext1uP4s

The guy in yellow ;)

Can't miss him ;)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "AudioGames.net" <richard at audiogames.net>
To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 8:55 PM
Subject: Re: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!


> Hi
>
> *quote*
>> I'll throw this quote in for Sander to see if he's reading: it's "the 
>> right to FUN!" :) (other fellow list readers...you have to imagine a tall 
>> long haired guy who is in a band in real life growling this like he's 
>> "Braveheart." ;) )
> *quote end*
>
> Watch Sander and his band here on National Television: 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CponiPfNO8Q
>
> (Sander is the one playing self-made electric upright bass and 
> unfortunately only has a couple of shots in this footage)
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access 



From hinn at uiuc.edu  Mon Dec 17 15:13:08 2007
From: hinn at uiuc.edu (d. michelle hinn)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 14:13:08 -0600
Subject: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!
In-Reply-To: <007901c840e7$26c84020$6402a8c0@Delletje>
References: <077901c840dd$adb3c910$0202a8c0@oneswitch>
	<p0623090ec38c79210ea0@[130.126.29.18]>
	<007901c840e7$26c84020$6402a8c0@Delletje>
Message-ID: <p0623090fc38c88469b55@[130.126.29.18]>

Yes I do -- but now I'm not home. :) I'll upload a couple when I get 
back later today. I had Rock Band on "pre-order" -- I'm a fan!

>Hi,
>
>*quote*
>I'm looking at the wired connection -- it really looks like one of 
>your controllers, Barrie, where you've drilled in holes to connect 
>switches to.
>*quote end*
>
>You have one at home? Or are you looking at a screenshot or 
>something? Either way, could you send a picture of it?
>
>Thanks
>
>Ries
>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <mailto:hinn at uiuc.edu>d. michelle hinn
>To: <mailto:games_access at igda.org>IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
>Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 8:25 PM
>Subject: Re: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!
>
>Yeah, a software solution would be nice and I think that's what's we 
>have time to get into the next version if I'm reading Alex correctly 
>and they can pull it off in time.
>
>For right now, though, the way the drum kit is set up it's just a 
>matter of stepping on it and not how hard/soft you step on it. I'm 
>looking at the wired connection -- it really looks like one of your 
>controllers, Barrie, where you've drilled in holes to connect 
>switches to.
>
>If I can get my hands on a pre-release (or release date) UK/Europe 
>version of "rock band" for you to mod, which console would work 
>best? I'm assuming PS2 because I know you work on controls for that 
>but I'm not sure if you work with Xbox 360 or PS3 as well. Given 
>that a large (most?) alt controllers have been modded for the PS2, 
>I'm thinking that would be the console to start with anyway.
>
>Also -- reduced controls mode -- sometimes you have to hit two drum 
>pads AND the pedal at the same time so there's one issue (three 
>arms?). But certainly if there were modes that could take away the 
>need to use the pedal and/or just, say, be about the rhythm and not 
>about the exact buttons/drum pads hit, that would probably help a 
>LOT of people. I mean, seriously, it took THREE people who did not 
>have any mobility limitations to make sure it wasn't the drumming 
>that knocked the band out of the game (if an instrument gets too low 
>on the "good" scale it gets knocked out and/or can knock you out of 
>the game entirely if the singer and the guitar player(s) are also 
>struggling) -- this was largely due to their not having any musical 
>training whatsoever so just hitting something/anything correctly was 
>a "win."
>
>Anyway...so that software solution idea may just help a whole lot of 
>people -- especially in a party situation where drinking is 
>involved... Some other things that they will be concerned with is 
>online play but it already tells others that you are playing 
>easy/medium/hard/expert mode so it could also say "modified." Not 
>sure if that an acceptable solution...just brainstorming.
>
>Michelle
>
>>My thoughts for Rock Band...
>>
>>Software solution would be very nice.
>>
>>Auto-Kick Drum would be pretty simple to implement (please don't shoot me,
>>Reid!) to my mind. As soon as a drum kick is called for - the software could
>>automatically trigger one in perfect timing.
>>
>>Reduced controls mode. Taking this further would be lovely too. Why not
>>allow the kick-drum to be triggered by any of the other controls? So if you
>>hit a snare (or any other drum control), if this is in time for the
>>drum-kick - that will be accepted.
>>
>>Super Reduced controls mode. I really liked Um Jammer Lammy for the PSone.
>>This was the follow up to Parappa the Rapper (the original inspiration for
>>all of these music based Simon Says games). This required about six or so
>>buttons to play the guitar. The simple mode allowed you to hit any button at
>>all - which if in time - would be accepted.
>>
>>
>>Hardware solutions.
>>
>>What is the software looking for? An analogue pedal or a digital pedal.
>>I.e. - does it matter how hard you step on it - or is it a simple on/off
>>switch? If it's okay to be treated as an on/off switch this is pretty
>>simple. If they've not developed the hardware completely yet - why not make
>>it connect to the main drum kit via a 3.5mm mono socket and plug (the
>>accessibility switch standard) with the kick drum acting as a press to make
>>switch. From there, users could plug in one of hundreds of different
>>accessibility controls (blink switches, extra head switches and so on).
>>
>>If it's analogue - you may still find that adding a 3.5mm stereo socket and
>>plug might offer a solution - if you can provide some compatibility with
>>standard accessibility switches.
>>
>>
>>Finally - I'd be happy to look at the set-up - and even offer to adapt
>>existing set-ups. I'm sure there'll be others on this list and elsewhere
>>that would do the same too - perhaps following an easy D.I.Y. guide
>>
>somewhere....
>
>
>Barrie
><>www.OneSwitch.org.uk
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
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From richard at audiogames.net  Mon Dec 17 15:18:34 2007
From: richard at audiogames.net (AudioGames.net)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 21:18:34 +0100
Subject: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!
References: <20071216023137.AZG77925@expms2.cites.uiuc.edu><A5950742-4004-4E6C-9CB0-530A23F54808@pininteractive.com><p06230907c38c4b926127@[130.126.29.18]><005501c840e6$d9be4400$6402a8c0@Delletje>
	<008901c840e8$67b9a870$6402a8c0@Delletje>
Message-ID: <00c301c840ea$0031ae80$6402a8c0@Delletje>

And he doesn't really growl ;)


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "AudioGames.net" <richard at audiogames.net>
To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 9:07 PM
Subject: Re: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!


> Or here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6Pext1uP4s
>
> The guy in yellow ;)
>
> Can't miss him ;)
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "AudioGames.net" <richard at audiogames.net>
> To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
> Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 8:55 PM
> Subject: Re: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!
>
>
>> Hi
>>
>> *quote*
>>> I'll throw this quote in for Sander to see if he's reading: it's "the 
>>> right to FUN!" :) (other fellow list readers...you have to imagine a 
>>> tall long haired guy who is in a band in real life growling this like 
>>> he's "Braveheart." ;) )
>> *quote end*
>>
>> Watch Sander and his band here on National Television: 
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CponiPfNO8Q
>>
>> (Sander is the one playing self-made electric upright bass and 
>> unfortunately only has a couple of shots in this footage)
>> _______________________________________________
>> games_access mailing list
>> games_access at igda.org
>> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access 



From hinn at uiuc.edu  Mon Dec 17 15:25:54 2007
From: hinn at uiuc.edu (d. michelle hinn)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 14:25:54 -0600
Subject: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!
In-Reply-To: <00c301c840ea$0031ae80$6402a8c0@Delletje>
References: <20071216023137.AZG77925@expms2.cites.uiuc.edu><A5950742-4004-4E6C-9CB0-53
	0A23F54808@pininteractive.com><p06230907c38c4b926127@[130.126.29.18]><0055
	01c840e6$d9be4400$6402a8c0@Delletje>
	<008901c840e8$67b9a870$6402a8c0@Delletje>
	<00c301c840ea$0031ae80$6402a8c0@Delletje>
Message-ID: <p06230912c38c8ba16495@[130.126.29.18]>

Ok, ok. But he is the master of bizarre sounding voices. :)

>And he doesn't really growl ;)
>
>
>----- Original Message ----- From: "AudioGames.net" <richard at audiogames.net>
>To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
>Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 9:07 PM
>Subject: Re: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!
>
>>Or here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6Pext1uP4s
>>
>>The guy in yellow ;)
>>
>>Can't miss him ;)
>>
>>----- Original Message ----- From: "AudioGames.net" <richard at audiogames.net>
>>To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
>>Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 8:55 PM
>>Subject: Re: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!
>>
>>>Hi
>>>
>>>*quote*
>>>>I'll throw this quote in for Sander to see if he's reading: it's 
>>>>"the right to FUN!" :) (other fellow list readers...you have to 
>>>>imagine a tall long haired guy who is in a band in real life 
>>>>growling this like he's "Braveheart." ;) )
>>>*quote end*
>>>
>>>Watch Sander and his band here on National Television: 
>>>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CponiPfNO8Q
>>>
>>>(Sander is the one playing self-made electric upright bass and 
>>>unfortunately only has a couple of shots in this footage)
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>games_access mailing list
>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>games_access mailing list
>>games_access at igda.org
>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access



From richard at audiogames.net  Mon Dec 17 15:26:50 2007
From: richard at audiogames.net (AudioGames.net)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 21:26:50 +0100
Subject: [games_access] Question concerning making force feedback accessible?
Message-ID: <00c901c840eb$27e39e60$6402a8c0@Delletje>

Hi,

I'm busy making a diagram of how to map one medium to another medium, for instance the path from auditory information to a text description of this auditory information in the form of a closed caption. I was enthousiastically drawing a path for adapting force-feedback information to other media like sound and visuals when it dawned on me: does this information need to be adapted to other media?

On one hand I'd say yes, if it communicates important information which is not communicated by the game through other means and thus not available when force feedback cannot be perceived (for instance because the player uses output hardware that do not support force feedback). But I was thinking of examples of this and couldn't think of any. Does anyone have an example of where force feedback is used to communicate important information that is not communicated via other means (like sound or visuals) by the game? 

Also: do you think it is important to consider making force feedback information accessible by adapting it to different media, even though it might not be used much? Or would you simply say to game designers: "Do not communicate important information through force feedback ONLY, but also add an alternative"?

Greets,

Richard
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From richard at audiogames.net  Mon Dec 17 15:34:06 2007
From: richard at audiogames.net (AudioGames.net)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 21:34:06 +0100
Subject: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!
References: <20071216023137.AZG77925@expms2.cites.uiuc.edu><A5950742-4004-4E6C-9CB0-530A23F54808@pininteractive.com><p06230907c38c4b926127@[130.126.29.18]><005501c840e6$d9be4400$6402a8c0@Delletje><008901c840e8$67b9a870$6402a8c0@Delletje><00c301c840ea$0031ae80$6402a8c0@Delletje>
	<p06230912c38c8ba16495@[130.126.29.18]>
Message-ID: <00f501c840ec$2ba285b0$6402a8c0@Delletje>

True ;)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "d. michelle hinn" <hinn at uiuc.edu>
To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 9:25 PM
Subject: Re: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!


> Ok, ok. But he is the master of bizarre sounding voices. :)
>
>>And he doesn't really growl ;)
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message ----- From: "AudioGames.net" 
>><richard at audiogames.net>
>>To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
>>Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 9:07 PM
>>Subject: Re: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!
>>
>>>Or here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6Pext1uP4s
>>>
>>>The guy in yellow ;)
>>>
>>>Can't miss him ;)



From arthit73 at cablespeed.com  Mon Dec 17 15:50:57 2007
From: arthit73 at cablespeed.com (Robert Florio)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 15:50:57 -0500
Subject: [games_access] Premier software review?  Any help?
In-Reply-To: AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIyk0SwA
References: <20071216023137.AZG77925@expms2.cites.uiuc.edu><A5950742-4004-4E6C-9CB0-530A23F54808@pininteractive.com><p06230907c38c4b926127@[130.126.29.18]><005501c840e6$d9be4400$6402a8c0@Delletje><008901c840e8$67b9a870$6402a8c0@Delletje><00c301c840ea$0031ae80$6402a8c0@Delletje><p06230912c38c8ba16495@[130.126.29.18]>
	AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIyk0SwA
Message-ID: <00d001c840ee$8baacd80$6601a8c0@Inspiron>

http://www.trustnetmarketing.com/add-209-1-1-1-products_list.html 

OK.  I could use any help on finding version number two of Adobe Premiere
Pro 2.0.  As you know, I've been working on this documentary.  Well, funding
fell through from the state.  I went to buy it myself and the people about
program software program lied.

For some ridiculous reason if you create any document with version 2.0, the
newest version 3.0 that they are selling, no longer selling 2.0, will not
allow you to bring your files or timeline or your work into 3.0.
Ridiculous.!  I think I got a jerk at the company and to be things like a
really stupid marketing move for customers to just upgrade but they can't.

Anyway I found this web site link above and then download really cheap $110
isn't trustworthy I can't find out?  Does anyone know?  Normally it's $800.
$400 with student discount.  But nobody is selling 2.0 anymore.  Please
thanks.

Robert



From hinn at uiuc.edu  Mon Dec 17 16:13:44 2007
From: hinn at uiuc.edu (d. michelle hinn)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 15:13:44 -0600
Subject: [games_access] Premier software review?  Any help?
In-Reply-To: <00d001c840ee$8baacd80$6601a8c0@Inspiron>
References: <20071216023137.AZG77925@expms2.cites.uiuc.edu><A5950742-4004-4E6C-9CB0-53
	0A23F54808@pininteractive.com><p06230907c38c4b926127@[130.126.29.18]><0055
	01c840e6$d9be4400$6402a8c0@Delletje><008901c840e8$67b9a870$6402a8c0@Dellet
	je><00c301c840ea$0031ae80$6402a8c0@Delletje><p06230912c38c8ba16495@[130.12
	6.29.18]>	AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIyk0SwA
	<00d001c840ee$8baacd80$6601a8c0@Inspiron>
Message-ID: <p06230913c38c956fb0ed@[130.126.29.18]>

Hey Robert -- 3.0 is not backward compatible? That's insane. I hate 
when products do that.

I think Thomas has some contacts at Adobe. If they can't help I'm 
sure there are some other solutions -- let me check if we have some 
unused copies in my lab of v. 2.0 that we could donate -- sometimes 
we order too much and/or our university store might have some old 
copies that we could get at a discount (I've noticed that they keep 
old versions of other software in stock at a big discount until they 
sell out of it for the very reason that you stated, that the new 
versions aren't backward compatible. Somehow they have the licensing 
to do that -- I'll check).

I'm not sure I'd trust that website. Usually there's something sneaky 
when the cost is so low and they are not an authorized reseller.

Hang in there!! We'll come up with something to help you keep working 
on your documentary amongst all of us.

Michelle

>http://www.trustnetmarketing.com/add-209-1-1-1-products_list.html
>
>OK.  I could use any help on finding version number two of Adobe Premiere
>Pro 2.0.  As you know, I've been working on this documentary.  Well, funding
>fell through from the state.  I went to buy it myself and the people about
>program software program lied.
>
>For some ridiculous reason if you create any document with version 2.0, the
>newest version 3.0 that they are selling, no longer selling 2.0, will not
>allow you to bring your files or timeline or your work into 3.0.
>Ridiculous.!  I think I got a jerk at the company and to be things like a
>really stupid marketing move for customers to just upgrade but they can't.
>
>Anyway I found this web site link above and then download really cheap $110
>isn't trustworthy I can't find out?  Does anyone know?  Normally it's $800.
>$400 with student discount.  But nobody is selling 2.0 anymore.  Please
>thanks.
>
>Robert
>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access



From richard at audiogames.net  Mon Dec 17 16:31:09 2007
From: richard at audiogames.net (AudioGames.net)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 22:31:09 +0100
Subject: [games_access] Question concerning making force feedback
	accessible?
References: <00c901c840eb$27e39e60$6402a8c0@Delletje>
Message-ID: <013301c840f4$23d63d60$6402a8c0@Delletje>

This was the diagram btw (warning: just a sketch)...

http://www2.hku.nl/~mosh/ga/adaptingmedia008.jpg


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: AudioGames.net 
  To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List 
  Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 9:26 PM
  Subject: [games_access] Question concerning making force feedback accessible?


  Hi,

  I'm busy making a diagram of how to map one medium to another medium, for instance the path from auditory information to a text description of this auditory information in the form of a closed caption. I was enthousiastically drawing a path for adapting force-feedback information to other media like sound and visuals when it dawned on me: does this information need to be adapted to other media?

  On one hand I'd say yes, if it communicates important information which is not communicated by the game through other means and thus not available when force feedback cannot be perceived (for instance because the player uses output hardware that do not support force feedback). But I was thinking of examples of this and couldn't think of any. Does anyone have an example of where force feedback is used to communicate important information that is not communicated via other means (like sound or visuals) by the game? 

  Also: do you think it is important to consider making force feedback information accessible by adapting it to different media, even though it might not be used much? Or would you simply say to game designers: "Do not communicate important information through force feedback ONLY, but also add an alternative"?

  Greets,

  Richard


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  games_access mailing list
  games_access at igda.org
  http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
-------------- next part --------------
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From eelke.folmer at gmail.com  Mon Dec 17 18:02:39 2007
From: eelke.folmer at gmail.com (Eelke Folmer)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 15:02:39 -0800
Subject: [games_access] Question concerning making force feedback
	accessible?
In-Reply-To: <00c901c840eb$27e39e60$6402a8c0@Delletje>
References: <00c901c840eb$27e39e60$6402a8c0@Delletje>
Message-ID: <836db6300712171502t45cc8272m979747617d723c8e@mail.gmail.com>

Interesting diagram. I've proposed something similar in one of the
grants that I recently submitted but its more focused on an iterative
interaction model. I like the breadth approach you take showing all
the possible conversions you possibly need. E.g. deaf players unable
to hear audio so you would need to convert audio to text or haptic
feedback kind of creating different channels or modes on top of your
game. I've merely focused on showing the tuples of solutions you would
need for each stimulus (audio/video/haptic) that the player lacks
since players only lack one of these and how this affects gameplay.

I know force feedback is used in racing games to indicate your'e going
over a bump or something but its usually intended to negatively affect
your ability to control the game. E.g. it is used as a penalty
mechanism in addition to feedback. Maybe something similar can be done
for players unable to perceive force feedback. (maybe jitter their
controls a bit?)

Cheers Eelke


On 17/12/2007, AudioGames.net <richard at audiogames.net> wrote:
>
>
> Hi,
>
> I'm busy making a diagram of how to map one medium to another medium, for
> instance the path from auditory information to a text description of this
> auditory information in the form of a closed caption. I was
> enthousiastically drawing a path for adapting force-feedback information to
> other media like sound and visuals when it dawned on me: does this
> information need to be adapted to other media?
>
> On one hand I'd say yes, if it communicates important information which is
> not communicated by the game through other means and thus not available when
> force feedback cannot be perceived (for instance because the player uses
> output hardware that do not support force feedback). But I was thinking of
> examples of this and couldn't think of any. Does anyone have an example of
> where force feedback is used to communicate important information that is
> not communicated via other means (like sound or visuals) by the game?
>
> Also: do you think it is important to consider making force feedback
> information accessible by adapting it to different media, even though it
> might not be used much? Or would you simply say to game designers: "Do not
> communicate important information through force feedback ONLY, but also add
> an alternative"?
>
> Greets,
>
> Richard
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>


-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eelke Folmer                           Assistant Professor
Department of CS&E/171
University of Nevada              Reno, Nevada 89557
Game interaction design        www.helpyouplay.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------------


From eelke.folmer at gmail.com  Mon Dec 17 18:44:46 2007
From: eelke.folmer at gmail.com (Eelke Folmer)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 15:44:46 -0800
Subject: [games_access] article in escapist magazine
In-Reply-To: <a6673b8d0712111713tc0d3df3ta8dead525648bcb7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <836db6300712111653m12921df4j39ee9f0c9cf4d97@mail.gmail.com>
	<a6673b8d0712111656w2578ad13xa9ffb287c30d1646@mail.gmail.com>
	<a6673b8d0712111713tc0d3df3ta8dead525648bcb7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <836db6300712171544s49a9609bu2ecff907ebdb7da0@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

Talking about closed captioning. I just bought Assassin's creed for my
ps3. It is an incredible great game but I discovered that it doesn't
even have subtitles! The dialogues are really hard to understand so I
wanted to turn subtitles on only to discover they are not there! How
can such a polished game (it looks really great) miss such an
important feature?

So within Closed captions is there also a variety that displays
positional captions? E.g. normally the subtitles go at the bottom or
top of the screen but in japanese anime I sometimes see translations
of signs being translated right on the spot. I know they do it as
closed captions e.g. make it part of the video signal but I guess
subtitles could be extended to include positional information which
also makes it easier to support multiple languages.

Cheers Eelke




On 11/12/2007, Reid Kimball <reid at rbkdesign.com> wrote:
> Oh, someone else wrote the escapist article, very cool.
>
> Unfortunately, GTA: San Andreas is not captioned as the author states.
> What she's talking about is subtitles.
>
> - Subtitles = dialog
> - Captions = dialog + sound effects and music
> - Open Captions = equal captions that are burned into the video signal
> and can't be turned off
> - Closed captions = equal captions that are encoded into the video or
> game data and can be turned on or off at will
>
> -Reid
>
> On Dec 11, 2007 4:56 PM, Reid Kimball <reid at rbkdesign.com> wrote:
> > You're also in the latest Game Developer mag. Nice job!
> >
> >
> > On Dec 11, 2007 4:53 PM, Eelke Folmer <eelke.folmer at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/issues/issue_127/2708-Gaming-Ability
> > >
> > > --
> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > Eelke Folmer                           Assistant Professor
> > > Department of CS&E/171
> > > University of Nevada              Reno, Nevada 89557
> > > Game interaction design        www.helpyouplay.com
> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > games_access mailing list
> > > games_access at igda.org
> > > http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
> > >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>


-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eelke Folmer                           Assistant Professor
Department of CS&E/171
University of Nevada              Reno, Nevada 89557
Game interaction design        www.helpyouplay.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------------


From barrie.ellis at oneswitch.org.uk  Mon Dec 17 19:00:13 2007
From: barrie.ellis at oneswitch.org.uk (Barrie Ellis)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 00:00:13 -0000
Subject: [games_access] article in escapist magazine
Message-ID: <0a1c01c84108$f7446e60$0202a8c0@oneswitch>

Definitely an important consideration for some games. FYI - TV subtitles in 
the UK
contain positional information for both analogue and digital teletext. 
Pretty essential
to stop the text blocking out what's going on, and especially any rude bits!

> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Eelke Folmer" <eelke.folmer at gmail.com>
> To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
> Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 11:44 PM
> Subject: Re: [games_access] article in escapist magazine
>
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Talking about closed captioning. I just bought Assassin's creed for my
>> ps3. It is an incredible great game but I discovered that it doesn't
>> even have subtitles! The dialogues are really hard to understand so I
>> wanted to turn subtitles on only to discover they are not there! How
>> can such a polished game (it looks really great) miss such an
>> important feature?
>>
>> So within Closed captions is there also a variety that displays
>> positional captions? E.g. normally the subtitles go at the bottom or
>> top of the screen but in japanese anime I sometimes see translations
>> of signs being translated right on the spot. I know they do it as
>> closed captions e.g. make it part of the video signal but I guess
>> subtitles could be extended to include positional information which
>> also makes it easier to support multiple languages.
>>
>> Cheers Eelke
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 11/12/2007, Reid Kimball <reid at rbkdesign.com> wrote:
>>> Oh, someone else wrote the escapist article, very cool.
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, GTA: San Andreas is not captioned as the author states.
>>> What she's talking about is subtitles.
>>>
>>> - Subtitles = dialog
>>> - Captions = dialog + sound effects and music
>>> - Open Captions = equal captions that are burned into the video signal
>>> and can't be turned off
>>> - Closed captions = equal captions that are encoded into the video or
>>> game data and can be turned on or off at will
>>>
>>> -Reid
>>>
>>> On Dec 11, 2007 4:56 PM, Reid Kimball <reid at rbkdesign.com> wrote:
>>> > You're also in the latest Game Developer mag. Nice job!
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Dec 11, 2007 4:53 PM, Eelke Folmer <eelke.folmer at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> > > http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/issues/issue_127/2708-Gaming-Ability
>>> > >
>>> > > --
>>> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> > > Eelke Folmer                           Assistant Professor
>>> > > Department of CS&E/171
>>> > > University of Nevada              Reno, Nevada 89557
>>> > > Game interaction design        www.helpyouplay.com
>>> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> > > _______________________________________________
>>> > > games_access mailing list
>>> > > games_access at igda.org
>>> > > http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>> > >
>>> >
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> games_access mailing list
>>> games_access at igda.org
>>> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Eelke Folmer                           Assistant Professor
>> Department of CS&E/171
>> University of Nevada              Reno, Nevada 89557
>> Game interaction design        www.helpyouplay.com
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> _______________________________________________
>> games_access mailing list
>> games_access at igda.org
>> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
> 





From hinn at uiuc.edu  Mon Dec 17 19:08:28 2007
From: hinn at uiuc.edu (d. michelle hinn)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 18:08:28 -0600
Subject: [games_access] Assassin's Creed
Message-ID: <p06230915c38cbfbf9ba0@[130.126.29.18]>

Forwarded from a bounce -- this is from Barrie:

>Definitely an essential consideration for some games. TV subtitles 
>in the UK contain positional information for analogue and digital 
>teletext (simply X,Y co-ordinates) for your information.
>
>
>----- Original Message ----- From: "Eelke Folmer" <eelke.folmer at gmail.com>
>To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
>Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 11:44 PM
>Subject: Re: [games_access] article in escapist magazine
>
>>Hi,
>>
>>Talking about closed captioning. I just bought Assassin's creed for my
>>ps3. It is an incredible great game but I discovered that it doesn't
>>even have subtitles! The dialogues are really hard to understand so I
>>wanted to turn subtitles on only to discover they are not there! How
>>can such a polished game (it looks really great) miss such an
>>important feature?
>>
>>So within Closed captions is there also a variety that displays
>>positional captions? E.g. normally the subtitles go at the bottom or
>>top of the screen but in japanese anime I sometimes see translations
>>of signs being translated right on the spot. I know they do it as
>>closed captions e.g. make it part of the video signal but I guess
>>subtitles could be extended to include positional information which
>>also makes it easier to support multiple languages.
>>
>>Cheers Eelke
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>On 11/12/2007, Reid Kimball <reid at rbkdesign.com> wrote:
>>>Oh, someone else wrote the escapist article, very cool.
>>>
>>>Unfortunately, GTA: San Andreas is not captioned as the author states.
>>>What she's talking about is subtitles.
>>>
>>>- Subtitles = dialog
>>>- Captions = dialog + sound effects and music
>>>- Open Captions = equal captions that are burned into the video signal
>>>and can't be turned off
>>>- Closed captions = equal captions that are encoded into the video or
>>>game data and can be turned on or off at will
>>>
>>>-Reid
>>>
>>>On Dec 11, 2007 4:56 PM, Reid Kimball <reid at rbkdesign.com> wrote:
>>>>  You're also in the latest Game Developer mag. Nice job!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  On Dec 11, 2007 4:53 PM, Eelke Folmer <eelke.folmer at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>  > 
>>>>http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/issues/issue_127/2708-Gaming-Ability
>>>>  >
>>>>  > --
>>>>  > 
>>>>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>  > Eelke Folmer                           Assistant Professor
>>>>  > Department of CS&E/171
>>>>  > University of Nevada              Reno, Nevada 89557
>>>>  > Game interaction design        www.helpyouplay.com
>>>>  > 
>>>>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>  > _______________________________________________
>>>>  > games_access mailing list
>>>>  > games_access at igda.org
>>>>  > http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>>  >
>>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>games_access mailing list
>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>
>>
>>
>>--
>>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>Eelke Folmer                           Assistant Professor
>>Department of CS&E/171
>>University of Nevada              Reno, Nevada 89557
>>Game interaction design        www.helpyouplay.com
>>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>_______________________________________________
>>games_access mailing list
>>games_access at igda.org
>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access



From richard at audiogames.net  Mon Dec 17 19:49:39 2007
From: richard at audiogames.net (AudioGames.net)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 01:49:39 +0100
Subject: [games_access] Question concerning making force
	feedbackaccessible?
References: <00c901c840eb$27e39e60$6402a8c0@Delletje>
	<836db6300712171502t45cc8272m979747617d723c8e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <007101c8410f$df9b4930$6402a8c0@Delletje>

Hi,

Thanks for your feedback! If you can share it, I would be interested in that 
diagram you made :)  What I want to show with this diagram is how all the 
parts work together, and how they for instance can make a game accessible 
for a deaf-blind gamer. I also hope to show that when designing specific 
accessibility features, for instance a closed captions system, to keep this 
bigger overview in mind, so that later, when you want to add more 
accessibility features, you can reuse parts that you already made and/or 
connect parts together.

I think I will add all the force feedback connection possibilities in here. 
Although there may be only a couple of games in existence (or may ever 
exist) that use only force feedback (and no other medium) to convey a 
certain piece of information, I guess that by showing all connections that 
are possible, it might stimulate designers to think about it and maybe even 
inspire them to design something that they wouldn't have done otherwise.

Thanks again,

Greets,

Richard


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Eelke Folmer" <eelke.folmer at gmail.com>
To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 12:02 AM
Subject: Re: [games_access] Question concerning making force 
feedbackaccessible?


> Interesting diagram. I've proposed something similar in one of the
> grants that I recently submitted but its more focused on an iterative
> interaction model. I like the breadth approach you take showing all
> the possible conversions you possibly need. E.g. deaf players unable
> to hear audio so you would need to convert audio to text or haptic
> feedback kind of creating different channels or modes on top of your
> game. I've merely focused on showing the tuples of solutions you would
> need for each stimulus (audio/video/haptic) that the player lacks
> since players only lack one of these and how this affects gameplay.
>
> I know force feedback is used in racing games to indicate your'e going
> over a bump or something but its usually intended to negatively affect
> your ability to control the game. E.g. it is used as a penalty
> mechanism in addition to feedback. Maybe something similar can be done
> for players unable to perceive force feedback. (maybe jitter their
> controls a bit?)
>
> Cheers Eelke
>
>
> On 17/12/2007, AudioGames.net <richard at audiogames.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I'm busy making a diagram of how to map one medium to another medium, for
>> instance the path from auditory information to a text description of this
>> auditory information in the form of a closed caption. I was
>> enthousiastically drawing a path for adapting force-feedback information 
>> to
>> other media like sound and visuals when it dawned on me: does this
>> information need to be adapted to other media?
>>
>> On one hand I'd say yes, if it communicates important information which 
>> is
>> not communicated by the game through other means and thus not available 
>> when
>> force feedback cannot be perceived (for instance because the player uses
>> output hardware that do not support force feedback). But I was thinking 
>> of
>> examples of this and couldn't think of any. Does anyone have an example 
>> of
>> where force feedback is used to communicate important information that is
>> not communicated via other means (like sound or visuals) by the game?
>>
>> Also: do you think it is important to consider making force feedback
>> information accessible by adapting it to different media, even though it
>> might not be used much? Or would you simply say to game designers: "Do 
>> not
>> communicate important information through force feedback ONLY, but also 
>> add
>> an alternative"?
>>
>> Greets,
>>
>> Richard
>> _______________________________________________
>> games_access mailing list
>> games_access at igda.org
>> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>
>>
>
>
> -- 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Eelke Folmer                           Assistant Professor
> Department of CS&E/171
> University of Nevada              Reno, Nevada 89557
> Game interaction design        www.helpyouplay.com
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access 



From reid at rbkdesign.com  Mon Dec 17 19:53:17 2007
From: reid at rbkdesign.com (Reid Kimball)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 16:53:17 -0800
Subject: [games_access] Question concerning making force feedback
	accessible?
In-Reply-To: <00c901c840eb$27e39e60$6402a8c0@Delletje>
References: <00c901c840eb$27e39e60$6402a8c0@Delletje>
Message-ID: <a6673b8d0712171653m7f2c44eel5c7fb4ca30b15bae@mail.gmail.com>

I think a developer should represent feedback when it's necessary.
Currently force feedback isn't the focus of games, except for haptic
devices like Novint. Usually in the games I work on, force feedback
supplements already existing feedback, such as sounds and animation.
Then it becomes a task to make sure the sounds are converted into
other media and animations are easily seen for low-vision players.

Otherwise, you may see redundant feedback, such as:

(DISTANT EXPLOSION) for a sound caption
(SOFT EXPLOSION RUMBLE) for the force feedback

-Reid

On Dec 17, 2007 12:26 PM, AudioGames.net <richard at audiogames.net> wrote:
>
>
> Hi,
>
> I'm busy making a diagram of how to map one medium to another medium, for
> instance the path from auditory information to a text description of this
> auditory information in the form of a closed caption. I was
> enthousiastically drawing a path for adapting force-feedback information to
> other media like sound and visuals when it dawned on me: does this
> information need to be adapted to other media?
>
> On one hand I'd say yes, if it communicates important information which is
> not communicated by the game through other means and thus not available when
> force feedback cannot be perceived (for instance because the player uses
> output hardware that do not support force feedback). But I was thinking of
> examples of this and couldn't think of any. Does anyone have an example of
> where force feedback is used to communicate important information that is
> not communicated via other means (like sound or visuals) by the game?
>
> Also: do you think it is important to consider making force feedback
> information accessible by adapting it to different media, even though it
> might not be used much? Or would you simply say to game designers: "Do not
> communicate important information through force feedback ONLY, but also add
> an alternative"?
>
> Greets,
>
> Richard
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>


From arthit73 at cablespeed.com  Mon Dec 17 19:55:21 2007
From: arthit73 at cablespeed.com (Robert Florio)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 19:55:21 -0500
Subject: [games_access] Adobe Premiere Pro 2.0.. Software download?
	Please!
In-Reply-To: AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIyk1CwA
References: <836db6300712111653m12921df4j39ee9f0c9cf4d97@mail.gmail.com><a6673b8d0712111656w2578ad13xa9ffb287c30d1646@mail.gmail.com><a6673b8d0712111713tc0d3df3ta8dead525648bcb7@mail.gmail.com>
	AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIyk1CwA
Message-ID: <001e01c84110$ad158510$6601a8c0@Inspiron>

http://www.trustnetmarketing.com/add-209-1-1-1-products_list.html  

OK.  I could use any help on finding version number two of Adobe Premiere
Pro 2.0.  As you know, I've been working on this documentary.  Well, funding
fell through from the state.  I went to buy it myself and the people about
program software program lied.

For some ridiculous reason if you create any document with version 2.0, the
newest version 3.0 that they are selling, no longer selling 2.0, will not
allow you to bring your files or timeline or your work into 3.0.
Ridiculous.!  I think I got a jerk at the company and to be things like a
really stupid marketing move for customers to just upgrade but they can't.

Anyway I found this web site link above and then download really cheap $110
isn't trustworthy I can't find out?  Does anyone know?  Normally it's $800.
$400 with student discount.  But nobody is selling 2.0 anymore.  Please
thanks.

Robert



From arthit73 at cablespeed.com  Mon Dec 17 20:29:01 2007
From: arthit73 at cablespeed.com (Robert Florio)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 20:29:01 -0500
Subject: [games_access] Adobe Premiere Pro 2.0, finding it again online?
In-Reply-To: AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIyk1SwA
References: <00c901c840eb$27e39e60$6402a8c0@Delletje>
	AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIyk1SwA
Message-ID: <000001c84115$61190f10$6601a8c0@Inspiron>

http://www.trustnetmarketing.com/add-209-1-1-1-products_list.html  

OK.  I could use any help on finding version number two of Adobe Premiere
Pro 2.0.  As you know, I've been working on this documentary.  Well, funding
fell through from the state.  I went to buy it myself and the people about
program software program lied.

For some ridiculous reason if you create any document with version 2.0, the
newest version 3.0 that they are selling, no longer selling 2.0, will not
allow you to bring your files or timeline or your work into 3.0.
Ridiculous.!  I think I got a jerk at the company and to be things like a
really stupid marketing move for customers to just upgrade but they can't.

Anyway I found this web site link above and then download really cheap $110
isn't trustworthy I can't find out?  Does anyone know?  Normally it's $800.
$400 with student discount.  But nobody is selling 2.0 anymore.  Please
thanks.

Robert

-----Original Message-----
From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
On Behalf Of Reid Kimball
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 7:53 PM
To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
Subject: Re: [games_access] Question concerning making force
feedbackaccessible?

I think a developer should represent feedback when it's necessary.
Currently force feedback isn't the focus of games, except for haptic
devices like Novint. Usually in the games I work on, force feedback
supplements already existing feedback, such as sounds and animation.
Then it becomes a task to make sure the sounds are converted into
other media and animations are easily seen for low-vision players.

Otherwise, you may see redundant feedback, such as:

(DISTANT EXPLOSION) for a sound caption
(SOFT EXPLOSION RUMBLE) for the force feedback

-Reid

On Dec 17, 2007 12:26 PM, AudioGames.net <richard at audiogames.net> wrote:
>
>
> Hi,
>
> I'm busy making a diagram of how to map one medium to another medium, for
> instance the path from auditory information to a text description of this
> auditory information in the form of a closed caption. I was
> enthousiastically drawing a path for adapting force-feedback information
to
> other media like sound and visuals when it dawned on me: does this
> information need to be adapted to other media?
>
> On one hand I'd say yes, if it communicates important information which is
> not communicated by the game through other means and thus not available
when
> force feedback cannot be perceived (for instance because the player uses
> output hardware that do not support force feedback). But I was thinking of
> examples of this and couldn't think of any. Does anyone have an example of
> where force feedback is used to communicate important information that is
> not communicated via other means (like sound or visuals) by the game?
>
> Also: do you think it is important to consider making force feedback
> information accessible by adapting it to different media, even though it
> might not be used much? Or would you simply say to game designers: "Do not
> communicate important information through force feedback ONLY, but also
add
> an alternative"?
>
> Greets,
>
> Richard
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>
_______________________________________________
games_access mailing list
games_access at igda.org
http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access



From thomas at pininteractive.com  Mon Dec 17 15:29:37 2007
From: thomas at pininteractive.com (Thomas Westin)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 21:29:37 +0100
Subject: [games_access] SIG Accessibilty Guidelines
In-Reply-To: <p06230908c38c4fbf5bbb@[130.126.29.18]>
References: <6.1.0.6.2.20071216174125.01e30c50@enigami.com><56994D0C-3BD8-4418-8A80-4D85312721D7@pininteractive.com>
	<p06230908c38c4fbf5bbb@[130.126.29.18]>
Message-ID: <A3A1C8A7-299A-467B-B83A-A8FDA4A0C5FE@pininteractive.com>

yes, the thesis was based on two years of work with Terraformers so I  
pretty much had most of it in my head :) So all I needed to do was to  
describe the dev process from existing docs :) I agree, it was super  
fast, and I don't expect GAIM to be as fast to finish, but I'm  
dedicated on finishing it this spring
/thomas



17 dec 2007 kl. 17.13 skrev d. michelle hinn:

> Thomas...a few days to write your other thesis??? Either you are the  
> fastest researcher/writer ever or we have some major differences in  
> what goes into a thesis. My master's thesis took a year (year two of  
> a two year program where I was also still taking classes)...we won't  
> go into my doctoral dissertation ;)
>
> :D
>
> Michelle (I mean no harm -- I'm just amazed at that turn around  
> time! Was torture involved?)
>
>> Hello John
>>
>> I'm going to bold and say my thesis won't take forever. (I wrote  
>> another thesis, although smaller in just a few days).
>>
>> I'm planning to contact you and others in the SIG: I just wanted to  
>> start with models based on Terraformers which I already had, just  
>> made some corrections. This is to give you all an idea of what GAIM  
>> is aiming for
>>
>> Great that you plan to do guidelines of your own, but if we can  
>> cooperate it's even better. Perhaps agree on UML formats etc.  
>> What's your e-mail adress so I can contact you off list?
>>
>> My plan is to include all contributors in GAIM, right now there's a  
>> placeholder tag in the main GAIM doc for contributors.
>>
>> I've also created a Creative Commons License for GAIM, with
>> BY - Author credits, just to get sure people give some creds to the  
>> contributors
>> NC - No commercial, unless asked for
>> SA - Share alike, so people can extend my work if they share alike  
>> their work
>>
>> Thanks
>> Thomas
>>
>>
>> 16 dec 2007 kl. 23.48 skrev John Bannick:
>>
>>> It looks like Thomas' GAIM project and the associated discussion  
>>> could eventually result is some sort of practical SIG guidelines.
>>>
>>> Since that could take awhile (my thesis took forever) I'm going to  
>>> go ahead on my own and try to assemble a succinct and practical  
>>> set of guidelines for our own company.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> games_access mailing list
>> games_access at igda.org
>> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access

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From thomas at pininteractive.com  Mon Dec 17 15:33:06 2007
From: thomas at pininteractive.com (Thomas Westin)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 21:33:06 +0100
Subject: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!
In-Reply-To: <009901c84092$81f13290$6402a8c0@Delletje>
References: <20071216023137.AZG77925@expms2.cites.uiuc.edu><A5950742-4004-4E6C-9CB0-530A23F54808@pininteractive.com>
	<009901c84092$81f13290$6402a8c0@Delletje>
Message-ID: <5E2C34B6-8A7A-48D9-A64E-0F7A230FCDA7@pininteractive.com>

OK, let's map to to eye blinking instead, faster than eye brows
/thomas

17 dec 2007 kl. 10.52 skrev AudioGames.net:

> think it is very, very hard to do a good beat with your eyebrows.  
> I'm pretty good at timing, but I simply can't raise/lower my  
> eyebrows fast enough



From gramenos at ics.forth.gr  Tue Dec 18 07:44:57 2007
From: gramenos at ics.forth.gr (Dimitris Grammenos)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 14:44:57 +0200
Subject: [games_access] Game Over: More good news...
In-Reply-To: <A3A1C8A7-299A-467B-B83A-A8FDA4A0C5FE@pininteractive.com>
Message-ID: <20071218124500.B822B8E40FC@mailhost.ics.forth.gr>

Hello all,

 

I have been notified that my paper submission about Game Over (entitled Game
Over: Learning by Dying)

has been accepted for inclusion in the CHI 2008 Papers Program.

 

Cheers,

 

Dimitris

 

 

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From thomas at pininteractive.com  Tue Dec 18 09:02:17 2007
From: thomas at pininteractive.com (Thomas Westin)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 15:02:17 +0100
Subject: [games_access] Question concerning making force feedback
	accessible?
In-Reply-To: <00c901c840eb$27e39e60$6402a8c0@Delletje>
References: <00c901c840eb$27e39e60$6402a8c0@Delletje>
Message-ID: <1C0BB318-A24E-4D9C-9526-63F1B9AD0FA8@pininteractive.com>

I think at the current use of force feedback, which mostly is not very  
detailed, I can't see a direct need for it, but as more advanced  
haptics get into games with engines like HaptX and hardware like  
Novint (I have both) the need will arise sooner or later; and if we  
can be proactive about it, the better.

  /Thomas


17 dec 2007 kl. 21.26 skrev AudioGames.net:

> Hi,
>
> I'm busy making a diagram of how to map one medium to another  
> medium, for instance the path from auditory information to a text  
> description of this auditory information in the form of a closed  
> caption. I was enthousiastically drawing a path for adapting force- 
> feedback information to other media like sound and visuals when it  
> dawned on me: does this information need to be adapted to other media?
>
> On one hand I'd say yes, if it communicates important information  
> which is not communicated by the game through other means and thus  
> not available when force feedback cannot be perceived (for instance  
> because the player uses output hardware that do not support force  
> feedback). But I was thinking of examples of this and couldn't think  
> of any. Does anyone have an example of where force feedback is used  
> to communicate important information that is not communicated via  
> other means (like sound or visuals) by the game?
>
> Also: do you think it is important to consider making force feedback  
> information accessible by adapting it to different media, even  
> though it might not be used much? Or would you simply say to game  
> designers: "Do not communicate important information through force  
> feedback ONLY, but also add an alternative"?
>
> Greets,
>
> Richard
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access

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From thomas at pininteractive.com  Tue Dec 18 09:03:17 2007
From: thomas at pininteractive.com (Thomas Westin)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 15:03:17 +0100
Subject: [games_access] Game Over: More good news...
In-Reply-To: <20071218124500.B822B8E40FC@mailhost.ics.forth.gr>
References: <20071218124500.B822B8E40FC@mailhost.ics.forth.gr>
Message-ID: <49486A96-EC16-4E83-95BF-BFD7D5DE379C@pininteractive.com>

congratulations, Dimitris!
/thomas

18 dec 2007 kl. 13.44 skrev Dimitris Grammenos:

> Hello all,
>
> I have been notified that my paper submission about Game Over  
> (entitled Game Over: Learning by Dying)
> has been accepted for inclusion in the CHI 2008 Papers Program.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Dimitris
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access

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From arthit73 at cablespeed.com  Tue Dec 18 12:59:55 2007
From: arthit73 at cablespeed.com (Robert Florio)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 12:59:55 -0500
Subject: [games_access] need help with premiere Pro 2.0. Please anybody!
In-Reply-To: AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIyk2iwA
References: <20071218124500.B822B8E40FC@mailhost.ics.forth.gr>
	AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIyk2iwA
Message-ID: <006801c8419f$d1cbd0a0$6601a8c0@Inspiron>

http://www.trustnetmarketing.com/add-209-1-1-1-products_list.html  

 

OK.  I could use any help on finding version number two of Adobe Premiere
Pro 2.0.  As you know, I've been working on this documentary.  Well, funding
fell through from the state.  I went to buy it myself and the people about
program software program lied.

 

For some ridiculous reason if you create any document with version 2.0, the
newest version 3.0 that they are selling, no longer selling 2.0, will not
allow you to bring your files or timeline or your work into 3.0.
Ridiculous.!  I think I got a jerk at the company and to be things like a
really stupid marketing move for customers to just upgrade but they can't.

 

Anyway I found this web site link above and then download really cheap $110
isn't trustworthy I can't find out?  Does anyone know?  Normally it's $800.
$400 with student discount.  But nobody is selling 2.0 anymore.  Please
thanks.

 

Robert

 

  _____  

From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
On Behalf Of Thomas Westin
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:03 AM
To: gramenos at ics.forth.gr; IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
Subject: Re: [games_access] Game Over: More good news...

 

congratulations, Dimitris!

/thomas

 

18 dec 2007 kl. 13.44 skrev Dimitris Grammenos:





Hello all,

 

I have been notified that my paper submission about Game Over (entitled Game
Over: Learning by Dying)

has been accepted for inclusion in the CHI 2008 Papers Program.

 

Cheers,

 

Dimitris

 

 

_______________________________________________
games_access mailing list
games_access at igda.org
http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access

 

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From richard at audiogames.net  Tue Dec 18 14:04:27 2007
From: richard at audiogames.net (AudioGames.net)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 20:04:27 +0100
Subject: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!
References: <20071216023137.AZG77925@expms2.cites.uiuc.edu><A5950742-4004-4E6C-9CB0-530A23F54808@pininteractive.com><009901c84092$81f13290$6402a8c0@Delletje>
	<5E2C34B6-8A7A-48D9-A64E-0F7A230FCDA7@pininteractive.com>
Message-ID: <005001c841a8$d00db6d0$6402a8c0@Delletje>

;)

Better

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Thomas Westin" <thomas at pininteractive.com>
To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 9:33 PM
Subject: Re: [games_access] Harmonix needs our help!


> OK, let's map to to eye blinking instead, faster than eye brows
> /thomas
> 
> 17 dec 2007 kl. 10.52 skrev AudioGames.net:
> 
>> think it is very, very hard to do a good beat with your eyebrows.  
>> I'm pretty good at timing, but I simply can't raise/lower my  
>> eyebrows fast enough
> 
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access


From richard at audiogames.net  Tue Dec 18 14:04:41 2007
From: richard at audiogames.net (AudioGames.net)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 20:04:41 +0100
Subject: [games_access] Game Over: More good news...
References: <20071218124500.B822B8E40FC@mailhost.ics.forth.gr>
Message-ID: <005f01c841a8$d86ad3d0$6402a8c0@Delletje>

Excellent! Congratulations!

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Dimitris Grammenos 
  To: 'IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List' 
  Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 1:44 PM
  Subject: [games_access] Game Over: More good news...


  Hello all,

   

  I have been notified that my paper submission about Game Over (entitled Game Over: Learning by Dying)

  has been accepted for inclusion in the CHI 2008 Papers Program.

   

  Cheers,

   

  Dimitris

   

   



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  games_access mailing list
  games_access at igda.org
  http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
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From richard at audiogames.net  Tue Dec 18 14:05:01 2007
From: richard at audiogames.net (AudioGames.net)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 20:05:01 +0100
Subject: [games_access] Question concerning making force
	feedbackaccessible?
References: <00c901c840eb$27e39e60$6402a8c0@Delletje>
	<1C0BB318-A24E-4D9C-9526-63F1B9AD0FA8@pininteractive.com>
Message-ID: <006e01c841a8$e426d340$6402a8c0@Delletje>

Then I will ;)
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Thomas Westin 
  To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List 
  Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 3:02 PM
  Subject: Re: [games_access] Question concerning making force feedbackaccessible?


  I think at the current use of force feedback, which mostly is not very detailed, I can't see a direct need for it, but as more advanced haptics get into games with engines like HaptX and hardware like Novint (I have both) the need will arise sooner or later; and if we can be proactive about it, the better.


   /Thomas




  17 dec 2007 kl. 21.26 skrev AudioGames.net:


    Hi,

    I'm busy making a diagram of how to map one medium to another medium, for instance the path from auditory information to a text description of this auditory information in the form of a closed caption. I was enthousiastically drawing a path for adapting force-feedback information to other media like sound and visuals when it dawned on me: does this information need to be adapted to other media?

    On one hand I'd say yes, if it communicates important information which is not communicated by the game through other means and thus not available when force feedback cannot be perceived (for instance because the player uses output hardware that do not support force feedback). But I was thinking of examples of this and couldn't think of any. Does anyone have an example of where force feedback is used to communicate important information that is not communicated via other means (like sound or visuals) by the game?

    Also: do you think it is important to consider making force feedback information accessible by adapting it to different media, even though it might not be used much? Or would you simply say to game designers: "Do not communicate important information through force feedback ONLY, but also add an alternative"?

    Greets,

    Richard
    _______________________________________________
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    games_access at igda.org
    http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access





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From hinn at uiuc.edu  Tue Dec 18 15:14:29 2007
From: hinn at uiuc.edu (d. michelle hinn)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 14:14:29 -0600
Subject: [games_access] Major listserv problems -- your patience needed!
In-Reply-To: <006801c8419f$d1cbd0a0$6601a8c0@Inspiron>
References: <20071218124500.B822B8E40FC@mailhost.ics.forth.gr>
	AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIyk2iwA
	<006801c8419f$d1cbd0a0$6601a8c0@Inspiron>
Message-ID: <p06230919c38dd9679f09@[130.126.29.18]>

Hey everyone,

It's confirmed that we are having major listserv problems. For 
instance people aren't getting their own postings back even if their 
account is set up to do that -- so Robert, for instance, has sent 
several identical emails because he's not getting any of them back. 
Then there an issue with message arriving out of order by up to a 
week off (ie, someone is getting a message that was sent a week ago 
just now).

I have emailed tech support and the problem is being looked into 
further. We do have a LOT of posts so I think we're basically in a 
technical traffic jam! So if you are not getting your own replies or 
things seem way out of date, please be patient and do check the list 
archives (which seem to be fine) at:

http://seven.pairlist.net/pipermail/games_access/

Thanks!!
Michelle
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From eelke.folmer at gmail.com  Tue Dec 18 16:55:01 2007
From: eelke.folmer at gmail.com (Eelke Folmer)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 13:55:01 -0800
Subject: [games_access] no more controllers!
Message-ID: <836db6300712181355ic2e1546n9bb26d474187db07@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.joystiq.com/2007/12/18/intel-predicts-camera-powered-controller-free-game-system/

Don't know if this really the way the industry should be heading.
Don't get me wrong I like the wii-mote but playing super mario galaxy
for 3 hours straight is way more exhausting than playing lets say
assassin's creed I've noticed lately. Chris Crawford's CC on game
design's book has a nice chapter that draws parallels between playing
games and playing sports and points out that because we limit
ourselves to a controller that only requires some thumb action, rather
than elaborate physical actions like swinging a bat, gamers can
achieve much higher levels of performance relatively than athletes
could, as their muscles wear out faster when you play for a few hours.

Cheers Eelke



-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eelke Folmer                           Assistant Professor
Department of CS&E/171
University of Nevada              Reno, Nevada 89557
Game interaction design        www.helpyouplay.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------------


From richard at audiogames.net  Tue Dec 18 17:03:20 2007
From: richard at audiogames.net (AudioGames.net)
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 23:03:20 +0100
Subject: [games_access] no more controllers!
References: <836db6300712181355ic2e1546n9bb26d474187db07@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001901c841c1$cdfcf5e0$6402a8c0@Delletje>

Interesting that today I found this in the news:

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1697,2234378,00.asp

;)


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Eelke Folmer" <eelke.folmer at gmail.com>
To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 10:55 PM
Subject: [games_access] no more controllers!


> http://www.joystiq.com/2007/12/18/intel-predicts-camera-powered-controller-free-game-system/
>
> Don't know if this really the way the industry should be heading.
> Don't get me wrong I like the wii-mote but playing super mario galaxy
> for 3 hours straight is way more exhausting than playing lets say
> assassin's creed I've noticed lately. Chris Crawford's CC on game
> design's book has a nice chapter that draws parallels between playing
> games and playing sports and points out that because we limit
> ourselves to a controller that only requires some thumb action, rather
> than elaborate physical actions like swinging a bat, gamers can
> achieve much higher levels of performance relatively than athletes
> could, as their muscles wear out faster when you play for a few hours.
>
> Cheers Eelke
>
>
>
> -- 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Eelke Folmer                           Assistant Professor
> Department of CS&E/171
> University of Nevada              Reno, Nevada 89557
> Game interaction design        www.helpyouplay.com
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access 



From barrie.ellis at oneswitch.org.uk  Wed Dec 19 04:44:52 2007
From: barrie.ellis at oneswitch.org.uk (Barrie Ellis)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 09:44:52 -0000
Subject: [games_access] Alien Kick
Message-ID: <003401c84223$ce00b2e0$0202a8c0@oneswitch>

Slightly amusing one-switch diversion: Alien Kick

http://switchgaming.blogspot.com/2007/12/alien-kick-one-switch-game.html

Good example of one-switch basic control standard (space bar - and 
left-mouse click accessible - ESCAPE to quit).

Barrie





From barrie.ellis at oneswitch.org.uk  Wed Dec 19 12:06:27 2007
From: barrie.ellis at oneswitch.org.uk (Barrie Ellis)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 17:06:27 -0000
Subject: [games_access] Legislating for Game Accessibility
References: <003701c834d4$043173c0$0202a8c0@oneswitch>AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIzkPCwA<005401c8351b$59e1f9b0$6501a8c0@Inspiron><001501c8351f$2a45b990$0202a8c0@oneswitch>AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIykQSwA<008201c83544$ea1a75b0$6501a8c0@Inspiron>AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIxkQiwA<008a01c8354c$3c4c0220$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
	<p0623090fc3792b11ceb6@[130.126.29.70]>
	<BAY135-W27E8693A480E1BFFA9D3A7D9610@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <003e01c84261$80416750$0202a8c0@oneswitch>

Re: [games_access] Getting Federal government. On our sidDon't want to stir this up, but....

Not so sure that legislating for greater accessibility in software is such an evil, and neither am I sure that it couldn't make some postive changes. In the UK we have some fairly weak laws requiring that companies providing physical services should make "reasonable adjustments" to make their service more accessible. Basic stuff like ramps so wheelchair users can get into shops, not refusing guidedogs, providing essential information in a few different formats at the request of individuals.

I also personally belive that a lot of anti-discriminatory laws proceeded some fairly large scale changes in attitudes of society, if only on the surface for some. Laws outlawing incitement to hatred surely are helping in the greater scheme of things?

So... thinking of those laws - how badly have they affected creative freedom? They will have a bit, but weighing things up - the benefits to society have been greater than any negative effects in my view.

So if an expectancy of "reasonable adjustments" in commercial software was introduced (which I truly belive will eventually happen) how badly would the artistic side of things be affected? What is reasonable is the tricky point... But I didn't see too many shop keepers crying about giving greater access to shoppers with different abilities.

Barrie

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Matthias Troup 
  To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List 
  Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 2:58 PM
  Subject: Re: [games_access] Getting Federal government. On our side.


  Getting a law passed should be an issue dropped from the SIG.  The bottom line is that games aren't meant for everyone to begin with.  Nothing is.

  Influence through inspiration is an honorable way to meet the SIG's goals.  Forcing its hand by law is condemnable.  The former may not be the most effective, but the latter doesn't consider for one second that everything this SIG stands for MIGHT BE "WRONG".  On a social level accessibility *might* be a nice accomplishment.  How about from other perspectives?  Entertainment?  Art?  Creative freedom?  I enjoy designing accessible games on an independent/"hobbyist" basis, but I cringe to think what forced accessibility would do (or not do) on a grand scale.  I'll reserve my "what if" statements.

  The only place accessibility may have a legal leg to stand on is in a public school setting.  Are most people with special needs able to attend public schools (bad question - as there is such a large range of disabilities)?  Does it impede the progress of able bodies?  Remember - in America - "The needs of the MANY outweigh the needs of a few" or so it's believed.  Are American children under-performing because the top 50% of students are being held back by laws, goals, and actions focused on the bottom 50% (I'm not assuming disabled people are "dumb", but most are "under-performing" by definition that they don't have tools needed to maximize potential)?  We can't be educated enough to know.  As wide a range of accessibility features there could be for different disabilities there are different points of view of how a law may have a positive or negative impact on the very society [able-bodied inclusive] this group is trying to help.  So, please continue to inspire, and please keep this out of reach from the law.






----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 22:24:04 -0600
    To: games_access at igda.org
    From: hinn at uiuc.edu
    Subject: Re: [games_access] Getting Federal government. On our side.


    This is true and I definitely was not trying to discourage the petition -- but when we start talking laws...we start talking about lawsuits. To do that is a whole different ballgame.


    Movie industry captioning does fall, in part, under the Americans with Disabilities Act but that ruling was in 2000 and the fight to get at least seat based captioning is STILL ongoing with lawsuit after lawsuit launched. The issue is that these require special devices and sometimes seating that someone has to pick up the bill for (who pays for that? The movie theatres? The movie industry?). The other issue is captions on or below the screen -- The National Association of the Deaf have been trying to get "open captioning" (captions on or below the screen) of movies in theaters implemented for a loooooong time now -- "open captioning" or on screen captioning is NOT covered under the Americans with Disabilities Act for some reason so there's ZERO incentive for the film industry to do that unless they are showing a foreign language film) and there are entire chains of movie theatres that do NOT provide captioning -- even seat-based:


    http://www.nad.org/site/pp.asp?c=foINKQMBF&b=100779


    See also this page for more information on how the movie industry has reacted (quoted from the website: "Movie studios and theaters have been slow to adopt open captioning of movies by claiming that open captioning causes a negative effect on box office sales." Sound familiar???):


    http://www.nad.org/site/pp.asp?c=foINKQMBF&b=100782


    The above is a nice example of a position statement that is perhaps more like what we want to go with regarding a petition.


    A tax break initiative for movie theatre chains to do provide for this was introduced in the JOBS act but when the final version of the law passed, this was a "rider" on the law that was not included. There have also been lawsuit after lawsuit after lawsuit raised and those take forever and usually get dropped for one reason or another.


    So perhaps what we need to do is not just get a petition going but actually get groups like the National Association of the Deaf and so forth involved. Because we can get every name in the game industry to sign the petition but it's powerful (and politically connected) groups like these that launch the lawsuits -- they have the power, connections, and the money to do this.


    I know...this is soooo "American." It would be great if there were easy and inexpensive options for the industry to implement, that it was "politically correct" for a legislator to stand behind this issue (remember...we are in election times...) -- the veteran issue is great and I definitely use this example in talks that I give. But on the flip side...games were also used to recruit so you can imagine the powderkeg the senator/whoever that brings this up will face. And with all the issues current candidates are having to address...eeek. So once again the lawsuit issue comes up. For that? We need way more power and we need the power and support of major disability organizations.


    Note: I am in no way saying "let's launch a lawsuit NOW." In fact, by even raising the issue I'm probably pissing off every developer on the list. Or not. I'm only raising the issue and pointing out how other advocacy groups have handled this issue of accessibility to entertainment.


    Michelle (who on some days is tempted to go get a law degree in night school...hahahahahahah...ok, seriously...I'm tired. And when that happens all kinds of crazy things come to mind.)




      I know what you mean Michelle.  But the bottom line is there needs to be
      something created so that the entertainment world has a standard also.

      Take for example the product brought out by the movie industry.

      In order for their productivity listened to by people with heart hearing,
      the movie theaters themselves by law, have to provide assistance technology
      to help the people either see or hear with devices.

      To me that seems like not exactly the same thing but something similar.

      The game design industry also provides a product that is not equal
      opportunity to enjoy.

      If we can get the petition circled around then we can send it to the right
      people who know the law and who can help us voice in if they see the need,
      which will combine the most important people we can find to sign it.

      Even if we just get around to the people we need to sign it, and then send
      it around to officials, and nothing happens, I think it makes a very loud
      statement.  Because then it can be documented who signed it.

      I would imagine trying to get the key names in the industry to sign it.
      Even the employees for those companies.

      Not to mention sending it out to all the important institutions.

      On their web site for the petition web page they do say that it's
      prohibited, not allowed, to mass e-mail yourself they set it up somehow
      targeting it to the right people I'm not sure how.

      I do not know what that's all about.  Seems kind of crazy.

      Robert

      -----Original Message-----
      From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
      On Behalf Of d. michelle hinn
      Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 8:10 PM
      To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
      Subject: Re: [games_access] Getting Federal government. On our side.

      Well, the reality is that it can take a VERY long time for a bill to
      become a law...and even longer for something to become a bill! While
      I think we should send something to the government I think the first
      step is going to be sending something that makes them aware that this
      is even an issue.

      Then we probably need the help of a legislative attorney who knows
      what specific constitutional laws are being violated and in what
      instances. For instance, I'm pretty sure that there's no law that
      requires that the music industry makes all CDs sold accessible to all
      so a federal law mandating that video games are accessible to all
      seems like that's probably pretty improbable. But what about video
      game tournaments that exclude disabled gamers or a video game that's
      marketed and used in schools (that, for sure, is a violation of US
      law)?

      I don't mean to be discouraging -- quite the opposite. We just have
      to know what's possible and what is realistic and what can be done
      soon and what is going to take a whole lot of persistence.

      Michelle

      >Sounds great.  I'm just not sure how to tie it in a broad?  How would that
      >work?  I was suggesting that if it worked here it would become something
      >marketable that other countries with one the same stamp of approval.
      >
      >My thoughts would be if it was made into some kind of legislation who makes
      >up the ideas for ranking if it becomes accepted?
      >
      >I think the best thing is to put together the petition that I will
      >definitely start writing.  And then if we get any important representatives
      >responding they can let us know what they think the best solution would be.
      >
      >Ultimately I think it should be something we can make money from instead of
      >giving away all our ideas.  So I'm sure there will be guidelines written up
      >basic ones may be but then after that someone needs to regulate it.
      >
      >Kind of like what Hillary Clinton set up with the MSRP people.  And as they
      >might already have a branch or suggest a private branch which would be
      >better.  Maybe they would find it and give us a place to locate.  One of
      the
      >best persuasive points to put in the petition would be for the injured
      >soldiers.
      >
      >Robert
      >
      >-----Original Message-----
      >From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
      >On Behalf Of d. michelle hinn
      >Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 7:34 PM
      >To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
      >Subject: Re: [games_access] Getting Federal government. On our side.
      >
      >I have all the US Senate/House/Governors email addresses so if you
      >start it and others can help edit, I can send out a press release.
      >
      >We can start by raising the issue with the US government because I
      >have those addresses but as Barrie suggested -- why limit this to
      >just the US?
      >
      >I'm not sure how successful it will be but we haven't tried it and
      >with the right tone it's worth a shot -- if anything it never hurts
      >to remind the US government who often tries to outlaw gaming after
      >this and that happens that games are important and not all bad. I'm
      >always happy to contribute to that approach!
      >
      >Michelle
      >
      >>Robert, if you kick start it, and get it going - I'll support you
      >>and so will others. Why not
      >>start by building an on-line petition - I'm sure there's more than just me
      >>here that would be happy to proof read it and add suggestions before
      >>it goes live.
      >>
      >>Take a look here:
      >>
      >>http://www.petitiononline.com/
      >>http://www.petitiononline.com/Captions/petition.html
      >>
      >>I too don't know how successful this approach will be - but none of us
      will
      >>know for sure unless it's tried.
      >>
      >>At the very least, it can burble away in the background - building support
      >>for us in numbers. Perhaps we could all point people in its direction if
      it
      >>says things we are mostly happy with? I'd like it to be a bit more
      >>international in scope, so I'd love to see an intro paragraph with links
      to
      >>translated versions in other languages.
      >>
      >>Go for it, Robert!
      >>
      >>Barrie
      >  >www.OneSwitch.org.uk
      >>
      >>----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Florio"
      ><arthit73 at cablespeed.com>
      >>To: "'IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List'" <games_access at igda.org>
      >>Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 7:41 PM
      >>Subject: Re: [games_access] Getting Federal government. On our side.
      >>
      >>>I'm actually proposing how many of us want to and can help to send
      letters
      >>>to important people like senators, independent game developers, to get
      >>>petitions signed, and send it to some senators to get some kind of
      >>>nationwide talk on this and finally a regulated necessity standard?
      >>>
      >>>I think it's a very good and noble thing to do.  Thinking of it in a way
      >>>that it's an industry that has ignored and does not have any future plans
      >>>for any big deals for accessibility for people.  Especially in the United
      >>>States is our Constitution write to have fair access to all forms of
      >>>entertainment.  To not allow people access to their product is
      >>>discrimination.
      >>>
      >>>Again this is something I have proposed before nobody said they wanted to
      >>>work on it and I don't know why it seems like a great thing to do.  Stand
      >>>up
      >>>for our rights that's what the government is there to help us to
      >>>especially
      >>>in a billion-dollar industry making millions and millions but ignoring
      the
      >>>rest seems wrong.
      >>>
      >>>Robert
      >>>
      >>>_______________________________________________
      >>>games_access mailing list
      >>>games_access at igda.org
      >>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>_______________________________________________
      >>games_access mailing list
      >>games_access at igda.org
      >>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
      >
      >_______________________________________________
      >games_access mailing list
      >games_access at igda.org
      >http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
      >
      >_______________________________________________
      >games_access mailing list
      >games_access at igda.org
      >http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access

      _______________________________________________
      games_access mailing list
      games_access at igda.org
      http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access

      _______________________________________________
      games_access mailing list
      games_access at igda.org
      http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access




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From arthit73 at cablespeed.com  Wed Dec 19 16:12:24 2007
From: arthit73 at cablespeed.com (Robert Florio)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 16:12:24 -0500
Subject: [games_access] proof.  Kids need our help.  This little girl.
In-Reply-To: AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIyE5CwA
References: <003701c834d4$043173c0$0202a8c0@oneswitch>AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIzkPCwA<005401c8351b$59e1f9b0$6501a8c0@Inspiron><001501c8351f$2a45b990$0202a8c0@oneswitch>AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIykQSwA<008201c83544$ea1a75b0$6501a8c0@Inspiron>AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIxkQiwA<008a01c8354c$3c4c0220$6501a8c0@Inspiron><p0623090fc3792b11ceb6@[130.126.29.70]><BAY135-W27E8693A480E1BFFA9D3A7D9610@phx.gbl>
	AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIyE5CwA
Message-ID: <000401c84283$db43ecf0$6601a8c0@Inspiron>

>From one of the newspaper articles in Pittsburgh when I graduated December
13, this mother Amy contacted me about her eight-year-old daughter at the
link below you can see her.  She wanted to know what games to play what is
out there for her and I let her know everything I know.  But it just touched
my heart and inspired me to keep doing what we are doing just take a look at
this site and she will inspire you I hope.  I have a four-year-old nephew
and really touched my heart.

www.saraskyfund.org

 

Robert

 

  _____  

From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
On Behalf Of Barrie Ellis
Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 12:06 PM
To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
Subject: [games_access] Legislating for Game Accessibility

 

Don't want to stir this up, but....

 

Not so sure that legislating for greater accessibility in software is such
an evil, and neither am I sure that it couldn't make some postive changes.
In the UK we have some fairly weak laws requiring that companies providing
physical services should make "reasonable adjustments" to make their service
more accessible. Basic stuff like ramps so wheelchair users can get into
shops, not refusing guidedogs, providing essential information in a few
different formats at the request of individuals.

 

I also personally belive that a lot of anti-discriminatory laws proceeded
some fairly large scale changes in attitudes of society, if only on the
surface for some. Laws outlawing incitement to hatred surely are helping in
the greater scheme of things?

 

So... thinking of those laws - how badly have they affected creative
freedom? They will have a bit, but weighing things up - the benefits to
society have been greater than any negative effects in my view.

 

So if an expectancy of "reasonable adjustments" in commercial software was
introduced (which I truly belive will eventually happen) how badly would the
artistic side of things be affected? What is reasonable is the tricky
point... But I didn't see too many shop keepers crying about giving greater
access to shoppers with different abilities.

 

Barrie

 

----- Original Message ----- 

From: Matthias <mailto:foreversublime at hotmail.com>  Troup 

To: IGDA Games <mailto:games_access at igda.org>  Accessibility SIG Mailing
List 

Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 2:58 PM

Subject: Re: [games_access] Getting Federal government. On our side.

 

Getting a law passed should be an issue dropped from the SIG.  The bottom
line is that games aren't meant for everyone to begin with.  Nothing is.

Influence through inspiration is an honorable way to meet the SIG's goals.
Forcing its hand by law is condemnable.  The former may not be the most
effective, but the latter doesn't consider for one second that everything
this SIG stands for MIGHT BE "WRONG".  On a social level accessibility
*might* be a nice accomplishment.  How about from other perspectives?
Entertainment?  Art?  Creative freedom?  I enjoy designing accessible games
on an independent/"hobbyist" basis, but I cringe to think what forced
accessibility would do (or not do) on a grand scale.  I'll reserve my "what
if" statements.

The only place accessibility may have a legal leg to stand on is in a public
school setting.  Are most people with special needs able to attend public
schools (bad question - as there is such a large range of disabilities)?
Does it impede the progress of able bodies?  Remember - in America - "The
needs of the MANY outweigh the needs of a few" or so it's believed.  Are
American children under-performing because the top 50% of students are being
held back by laws, goals, and actions focused on the bottom 50% (I'm not
assuming disabled people are "dumb", but most are "under-performing" by
definition that they don't have tools needed to maximize potential)?  We
can't be educated enough to know.  As wide a range of accessibility features
there could be for different disabilities there are different points of view
of how a law may have a positive or negative impact on the very society
[able-bodied inclusive] this group is trying to help.  So, please continue
to inspire, and please keep this out of reach from the law.






  _____  


Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 22:24:04 -0600
To: games_access at igda.org
From: hinn at uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: [games_access] Getting Federal government. On our side.

This is true and I definitely was not trying to discourage the petition --
but when we start talking laws...we start talking about lawsuits. To do that
is a whole different ballgame.

 

Movie industry captioning does fall, in part, under the Americans with
Disabilities Act but that ruling was in 2000 and the fight to get at least
seat based captioning is STILL ongoing with lawsuit after lawsuit launched.
The issue is that these require special devices and sometimes seating that
someone has to pick up the bill for (who pays for that? The movie theatres?
The movie industry?). The other issue is captions on or below the screen --
The National Association of the Deaf have been trying to get "open
captioning" (captions on or below the screen) of movies in theaters
implemented for a loooooong time now -- "open captioning" or on screen
captioning is NOT covered under the Americans with Disabilities Act for some
reason so there's ZERO incentive for the film industry to do that unless
they are showing a foreign language film) and there are entire chains of
movie theatres that do NOT provide captioning -- even seat-based:

 

http://www.nad.org/site/pp.asp?c=foINKQMBF&b=100779

 

See also this page for more information on how the movie industry has
reacted (quoted from the website: "Movie studios and theaters have been slow
to adopt open captioning of movies by claiming that open captioning causes a
negative effect on box office sales." Sound familiar???):

 

http://www.nad.org/site/pp.asp?c=foINKQMBF&b=100782

 

The above is a nice example of a position statement that is perhaps more
like what we want to go with regarding a petition.

 

A tax break initiative for movie theatre chains to do provide for this was
introduced in the JOBS act but when the final version of the law passed,
this was a "rider" on the law that was not included. There have also been
lawsuit after lawsuit after lawsuit raised and those take forever and
usually get dropped for one reason or another.

 

So perhaps what we need to do is not just get a petition going but actually
get groups like the National Association of the Deaf and so forth involved.
Because we can get every name in the game industry to sign the petition but
it's powerful (and politically connected) groups like these that launch the
lawsuits -- they have the power, connections, and the money to do this.

 

I know...this is soooo "American." It would be great if there were easy and
inexpensive options for the industry to implement, that it was "politically
correct" for a legislator to stand behind this issue (remember...we are in
election times...) -- the veteran issue is great and I definitely use this
example in talks that I give. But on the flip side...games were also used to
recruit so you can imagine the powderkeg the senator/whoever that brings
this up will face. And with all the issues current candidates are having to
address...eeek. So once again the lawsuit issue comes up. For that? We need
way more power and we need the power and support of major disability
organizations.

 

Note: I am in no way saying "let's launch a lawsuit NOW." In fact, by even
raising the issue I'm probably pissing off every developer on the list. Or
not. I'm only raising the issue and pointing out how other advocacy groups
have handled this issue of accessibility to entertainment.

 

Michelle (who on some days is tempted to go get a law degree in night
school...hahahahahahah...ok, seriously...I'm tired. And when that happens
all kinds of crazy things come to mind.)

 

 

I know what you mean Michelle.  But the bottom line is there needs to be
something created so that the entertainment world has a standard also.

Take for example the product brought out by the movie industry.

In order for their productivity listened to by people with heart hearing,
the movie theaters themselves by law, have to provide assistance technology
to help the people either see or hear with devices.


To me that seems like not exactly the same thing but something similar.

The game design industry also provides a product that is not equal
opportunity to enjoy.

If we can get the petition circled around then we can send it to the right
people who know the law and who can help us voice in if they see the need,
which will combine the most important people we can find to sign it.

Even if we just get around to the people we need to sign it, and then send
it around to officials, and nothing happens, I think it makes a very loud
statement.  Because then it can be documented who signed it.

I would imagine trying to get the key names in the industry to sign it.
Even the employees for those companies.

Not to mention sending it out to all the important institutions.

On their web site for the petition web page they do say that it's
prohibited, not allowed, to mass e-mail yourself they set it up somehow
targeting it to the right people I'm not sure how.

I do not know what that's all about.  Seems kind of crazy.

Robert

-----Original Message-----
From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
On Behalf Of d. michelle hinn
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 8:10 PM
To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
Subject: Re: [games_access] Getting Federal government. On our side.

Well, the reality is that it can take a VERY long time for a bill to
become a law...and even longer for something to become a bill! While
I think we should send something to the government I think the first
step is going to be sending something that makes them aware that this
is even an issue.

Then we probably need the help of a legislative attorney who knows
what specific constitutional laws are being violated and in what
instances. For instance, I'm pretty sure that there's no law that
requires that the music industry makes all CDs sold accessible to all
so a federal law mandating that video games are accessible to all
seems like that's probably pretty improbable. But what about video
game tournaments that exclude disabled gamers or a video game that's
marketed and used in schools (that, for sure, is a violation of US
law)?

I don't mean to be discouraging -- quite the opposite. We just have
to know what's possible and what is realistic and what can be done
soon and what is going to take a whole lot of persistence.

Michelle

>Sounds great.  I'm just not sure how to tie it in a broad?  How would that
>work?  I was suggesting that if it worked here it would become something
>marketable that other countries with one the same stamp of approval.
>
>My thoughts would be if it was made into some kind of legislation who makes
>up the ideas for ranking if it becomes accepted?
>
>I think the best thing is to put together the petition that I will
>definitely start writing.  And then if we get any important representatives
>responding they can let us know what they think the best solution would be.
>
>Ultimately I think it should be something we can make money from instead of
>giving away all our ideas.  So I'm sure there will be guidelines written up
>basic ones may be but then after that someone needs to regulate it.
>
>Kind of like what Hillary Clinton set up with the MSRP people.  And as they
>might already have a branch or suggest a private branch which would be
>better.  Maybe they would find it and give us a place to locate.  One of
the
>best persuasive points to put in the petition would be for the injured
>soldiers.
>
>Robert
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
>On Behalf Of d. michelle hinn
>Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 7:34 PM
>To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
>Subject: Re: [games_access] Getting Federal government. On our side.
>
>I have all the US Senate/House/Governors email addresses so if you
>start it and others can help edit, I can send out a press release.
>
>We can start by raising the issue with the US government because I
>have those addresses but as Barrie suggested -- why limit this to
>just the US?
>
>I'm not sure how successful it will be but we haven't tried it and

>with the right tone it's worth a shot -- if anything it never hurts
>to remind the US government who often tries to outlaw gaming after
>this and that happens that games are important and not all bad. I'm
>always happy to contribute to that approach!
>
>Michelle
>
>>Robert, if you kick start it, and get it going - I'll support you
>>and so will others. Why not
>>start by building an on-line petition - I'm sure there's more than just me
>>here that would be happy to proof read it and add suggestions before
>>it goes live.
>>
>>Take a look here:
>>
>>http://www.petitiononline.com/
>>http://www.petitiononline.com/Captions/petition.html
>>
>>I too don't know how successful this approach will be - but none of us
will
>>know for sure unless it's tried.
>>
>>At the very least, it can burble away in the background - building support
>>for us in numbers. Perhaps we could all point people in its direction if
it
>>says things we are mostly happy with? I'd like it to be a bit more
>>international in scope, so I'd love to see an intro paragraph with links
to
>>translated versions in other languages.
>>
>>Go for it, Robert!
>>
>>Barrie
>  >www.OneSwitch.org.uk
>>
>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Florio"
><arthit73 at cablespeed.com>
>>To: "'IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List'" <games_access at igda.org>
>>Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 7:41 PM
>>Subject: Re: [games_access] Getting Federal government. On our side.
>>
>>>I'm actually proposing how many of us want to and can help to send
letters
>>>to important people like senators, independent game developers, to get
>>>petitions signed, and send it to some senators to get some kind of
>>>nationwide talk on this and finally a regulated necessity standard?
>>>
>>>I think it's a very good and noble thing to do.  Thinking of it in a way
>>>that it's an industry that has ignored and does not have any future plans
>>>for any big deals for accessibility for people.  Especially in the United
>>>States is our Constitution write to have fair access to all forms of
>>>entertainment.  To not allow people access to their product is
>>>discrimination.
>>>
>>>Again this is something I have proposed before nobody said they wanted to
>>>work on it and I don't know why it seems like a great thing to do.  Stand
>>>up
>>>for our rights that's what the government is there to help us to
>>>especially
>>>in a billion-dollar industry making millions and millions but ignoring
the
>>>rest seems wrong.
>>>
>>>Robert
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>games_access mailing list
>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>games_access mailing list
>>games_access at igda.org
>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access

_______________________________________________
games_access mailing list
games_access at igda.org
http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access

_______________________________________________
games_access mailing list
games_access at igda.org
http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access

 

 


  _____  


Get the power of Windows + Web with the new Windows Live. Get it now!
<http://www.windowslive.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_powerofwindows_122007>  


  _____  


_______________________________________________
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http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access

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From this at malkyne.org  Wed Dec 19 19:33:14 2007
From: this at malkyne.org (Tess Snider)
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 18:33:14 -0600
Subject: [games_access] Legislating for Game Accessibility
In-Reply-To: <003e01c84261$80416750$0202a8c0@oneswitch>
References: <003701c834d4$043173c0$0202a8c0@oneswitch>
	<005401c8351b$59e1f9b0$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
	<001501c8351f$2a45b990$0202a8c0@oneswitch>
	<008201c83544$ea1a75b0$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
	<008a01c8354c$3c4c0220$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
	<p0623090fc3792b11ceb6@130.126.29.70>
	<BAY135-W27E8693A480E1BFFA9D3A7D9610@phx.gbl>
	<003e01c84261$80416750$0202a8c0@oneswitch>
Message-ID: <a29106ae0712191633t4fb67453ka52a5518995dbfa1@mail.gmail.com>

On Dec 19, 2007 11:06 AM, Barrie Ellis <barrie.ellis at oneswitch.org.uk> wrote:
> So if an expectancy of "reasonable adjustments" in commercial software was
> introduced (which I truly belive will eventually happen) how badly would the
> artistic side of things be affected? What is reasonable is the tricky
> point... But I didn't see too many shop keepers crying about giving greater
> access to shoppers with different abilities.

You're comparing apples and oranges.  You can't just bolt a ramp onto
a game, and call it accessible.

There are some types of entertainment experiences that are simply
incompatible with certain disabilities.  This is not due to
insensitivity on the part of the artists, but the very nature of the
experience.  Someone who is vision impaired, but not blind, might
really enjoy the extra-large picture provided by IMAX movies, while
someone who is completely blind will get no benefit from the giant
screen.

A lot of audio-only games for blind players are made by small,
independent developers.  Many of them are labors of love.  Would you
force these folks to invest extra time and money to develop a version
of their game that could be played by deaf players?  Would you rob
them of the time and money that they might have put towards making
more games for the blind?  Legislation can hurt the very people we are
trying to help.

I continue to believe that the push for accessibility labeling
standards is the right approach.  This does not mandate accessibility,
but it does create market pressure, and get companies thinking about
how they can tick off more checkboxes.  I guarantee you, you'd see
much more widespread coverage for at least the low-hanging fruit (e.g.
captioning, visual cues for auditory alerts, configurable controls,
etc.) than you do right now.  As it is, it's hard to get companies to
even remember that some people are left-handed!

Tess


From barrie.ellis at oneswitch.org.uk  Thu Dec 20 03:00:31 2007
From: barrie.ellis at oneswitch.org.uk (Barrie Ellis)
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 08:00:31 -0000
Subject: [games_access] Legislating for Game Accessibility
References: <003701c834d4$043173c0$0202a8c0@oneswitch><005401c8351b$59e1f9b0$6501a8c0@Inspiron><001501c8351f$2a45b990$0202a8c0@oneswitch><008201c83544$ea1a75b0$6501a8c0@Inspiron><008a01c8354c$3c4c0220$6501a8c0@Inspiron><p0623090fc3792b11ceb6@130.126.29.70><BAY135-W27E8693A480E1BFFA9D3A7D9610@phx.gbl><003e01c84261$80416750$0202a8c0@oneswitch>
	<a29106ae0712191633t4fb67453ka52a5518995dbfa1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <013e01c842de$651be900$0202a8c0@oneswitch>

I'm not 100% on either side of this fence - but the phrase "reasonable 
adjustments" doesn't ask for universal accessibility anyway. That said, your 
"rob them of time and money" does sound like some of the protests shop 
keepers were making pre "Disability Discrimination Act". I think slowly 
people get used to these concepts.

How could "reasonble adjustments" be made reasonable with video games. I'm 
not 100% sure to be honest. I just don't think it's anywhere near as 
frightening as some people seem to think it is.

Barrie


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tess Snider" <this at malkyne.org>
To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 12:33 AM
Subject: Re: [games_access] Legislating for Game Accessibility


> On Dec 19, 2007 11:06 AM, Barrie Ellis <barrie.ellis at oneswitch.org.uk> 
> wrote:
>> So if an expectancy of "reasonable adjustments" in commercial software 
>> was
>> introduced (which I truly belive will eventually happen) how badly would 
>> the
>> artistic side of things be affected? What is reasonable is the tricky
>> point... But I didn't see too many shop keepers crying about giving 
>> greater
>> access to shoppers with different abilities.
>
> You're comparing apples and oranges.  You can't just bolt a ramp onto
> a game, and call it accessible.
>
> There are some types of entertainment experiences that are simply
> incompatible with certain disabilities.  This is not due to
> insensitivity on the part of the artists, but the very nature of the
> experience.  Someone who is vision impaired, but not blind, might
> really enjoy the extra-large picture provided by IMAX movies, while
> someone who is completely blind will get no benefit from the giant
> screen.
>
> A lot of audio-only games for blind players are made by small,
> independent developers.  Many of them are labors of love.  Would you
> force these folks to invest extra time and money to develop a version
> of their game that could be played by deaf players?  Would you rob
> them of the time and money that they might have put towards making
> more games for the blind?  Legislation can hurt the very people we are
> trying to help.
>
> I continue to believe that the push for accessibility labeling
> standards is the right approach.  This does not mandate accessibility,
> but it does create market pressure, and get companies thinking about
> how they can tick off more checkboxes.  I guarantee you, you'd see
> much more widespread coverage for at least the low-hanging fruit (e.g.
> captioning, visual cues for auditory alerts, configurable controls,
> etc.) than you do right now.  As it is, it's hard to get companies to
> even remember that some people are left-handed!
>
> Tess
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access 





From thomas at pininteractive.com  Thu Dec 20 03:27:50 2007
From: thomas at pininteractive.com (Thomas Westin)
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 09:27:50 +0100
Subject: [games_access] Legislating for Game Accessibility
In-Reply-To: <013e01c842de$651be900$0202a8c0@oneswitch>
References: <003701c834d4$043173c0$0202a8c0@oneswitch><005401c8351b$59e1f9b0$6501a8c0@Inspiron><001501c8351f$2a45b990$0202a8c0@oneswitch><008201c83544$ea1a75b0$6501a8c0@Inspiron><008a01c8354c$3c4c0220$6501a8c0@Inspiron><p0623090fc3792b11ceb6@130.126.29.70><BAY135-W27E8693A480E1BFFA9D3A7D9610@phx.gbl><003e01c84261$80416750$0202a8c0@oneswitch><a29106ae0712191633t4fb67453ka52a5518995dbfa1@mail.gmail.com>
	<013e01c842de$651be900$0202a8c0@oneswitch>
Message-ID: <EE5ADD5A-16F8-49FF-B5BE-14EF84F2E186@pininteractive.com>

We should also differentiate between independent developers with low  
or no budgets, and games made with multimillion dollar budgets

Perhaps by saying that some percentage of the profit for _successful_  
games  reserved for making sequels of the game _more_ accessible,  
based on game genre; then the publisher takes little or no risk, since  
it's self-funded development and more disabled gamers can play the  
popular games.

/thomas

On 20 dec 2007, at 09.00, Barrie Ellis wrote:

> I'm not 100% on either side of this fence - but the phrase  
> "reasonable adjustments" doesn't ask for universal accessibility  
> anyway. That said, your "rob them of time and money" does sound like  
> some of the protests shop keepers were making pre "Disability  
> Discrimination Act". I think slowly people get used to these concepts.
>
> How could "reasonble adjustments" be made reasonable with video  
> games. I'm not 100% sure to be honest. I just don't think it's  
> anywhere near as frightening as some people seem to think it is.
>
> Barrie
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tess Snider" <this at malkyne.org>
> To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List"  
> <games_access at igda.org>
> Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 12:33 AM
> Subject: Re: [games_access] Legislating for Game Accessibility
>
>
>> On Dec 19, 2007 11:06 AM, Barrie Ellis  
>> <barrie.ellis at oneswitch.org.uk> wrote:
>>> So if an expectancy of "reasonable adjustments" in commercial  
>>> software was
>>> introduced (which I truly belive will eventually happen) how badly  
>>> would the
>>> artistic side of things be affected? What is reasonable is the  
>>> tricky
>>> point... But I didn't see too many shop keepers crying about  
>>> giving greater
>>> access to shoppers with different abilities.
>>
>> You're comparing apples and oranges.  You can't just bolt a ramp onto
>> a game, and call it accessible.
>>
>> There are some types of entertainment experiences that are simply
>> incompatible with certain disabilities.  This is not due to
>> insensitivity on the part of the artists, but the very nature of the
>> experience.  Someone who is vision impaired, but not blind, might
>> really enjoy the extra-large picture provided by IMAX movies, while
>> someone who is completely blind will get no benefit from the giant
>> screen.
>>
>> A lot of audio-only games for blind players are made by small,
>> independent developers.  Many of them are labors of love.  Would you
>> force these folks to invest extra time and money to develop a version
>> of their game that could be played by deaf players?  Would you rob
>> them of the time and money that they might have put towards making
>> more games for the blind?  Legislation can hurt the very people we  
>> are
>> trying to help.
>>
>> I continue to believe that the push for accessibility labeling
>> standards is the right approach.  This does not mandate  
>> accessibility,
>> but it does create market pressure, and get companies thinking about
>> how they can tick off more checkboxes.  I guarantee you, you'd see
>> much more widespread coverage for at least the low-hanging fruit  
>> (e.g.
>> captioning, visual cues for auditory alerts, configurable controls,
>> etc.) than you do right now.  As it is, it's hard to get companies to
>> even remember that some people are left-handed!
>>
>> Tess
>> _______________________________________________
>> games_access mailing list
>> games_access at igda.org
>> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access



From jbannick at 7128.com  Thu Dec 20 04:57:26 2007
From: jbannick at 7128.com (John Bannick)
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 04:57:26 -0500
Subject: [games_access] Legislating for Game Accessibility
In-Reply-To: <a29106ae0712191633t4fb67453ka52a5518995dbfa1@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <003701c834d4$043173c0$0202a8c0@oneswitch>
	<005401c8351b$59e1f9b0$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
	<001501c8351f$2a45b990$0202a8c0@oneswitch>
	<008201c83544$ea1a75b0$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
	<008a01c8354c$3c4c0220$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
	<p0623090fc3792b11ceb6@130.126.29.70>
	<BAY135-W27E8693A480E1BFFA9D3A7D9610@phx.gbl>
	<003e01c84261$80416750$0202a8c0@oneswitch>
	<a29106ae0712191633t4fb67453ka52a5518995dbfa1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.2.20071220045127.01e28720@enigami.com>

Tess,

Interesting you should suggest Accessibility Ratings.

Our small company makes computer games for the casual games market.
All of these games have a 7-128 Software Accessibility Rating and Age 
Appropriate Rating.
We post the ratings at the electronic point of purchase and in all our 
literature.
The Accessibility Ratings aren't perfect by any means, but they're a start.
(In fact, I'm working on a set of specific accessibilty criteria to back 
the ratings.)

Check out: http://www.7128.com/supportratings.html

John Bannick
CTO
7-128 Software

At 07:33 PM 12/19/2007, you wrote:
>On Dec 19, 2007 11:06 AM, Barrie Ellis <barrie.ellis at oneswitch.org.uk> wrote:
> > So if an expectancy of "reasonable adjustments" in commercial software was
> > introduced (which I truly belive will eventually happen) how badly 
> would the
> > artistic side of things be affected? What is reasonable is the tricky
> > point... But I didn't see too many shop keepers crying about giving greater
> > access to shoppers with different abilities.
>
>You're comparing apples and oranges.  You can't just bolt a ramp onto
>a game, and call it accessible.
>
>There are some types of entertainment experiences that are simply
>incompatible with certain disabilities.  This is not due to
>insensitivity on the part of the artists, but the very nature of the
>experience.  Someone who is vision impaired, but not blind, might
>really enjoy the extra-large picture provided by IMAX movies, while
>someone who is completely blind will get no benefit from the giant
>screen.
>
>A lot of audio-only games for blind players are made by small,
>independent developers.  Many of them are labors of love.  Would you
>force these folks to invest extra time and money to develop a version
>of their game that could be played by deaf players?  Would you rob
>them of the time and money that they might have put towards making
>more games for the blind?  Legislation can hurt the very people we are
>trying to help.
>
>I continue to believe that the push for accessibility labeling
>standards is the right approach.  This does not mandate accessibility,
>but it does create market pressure, and get companies thinking about
>how they can tick off more checkboxes.  I guarantee you, you'd see
>much more widespread coverage for at least the low-hanging fruit (e.g.
>captioning, visual cues for auditory alerts, configurable controls,
>etc.) than you do right now.  As it is, it's hard to get companies to
>even remember that some people are left-handed!
>
>Tess
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>
>--
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.17.5/1190 - Release Date: 
>12/19/2007 7:37 PM



From colven at ace-centre.org.uk  Thu Dec 20 05:21:41 2007
From: colven at ace-centre.org.uk (David Colven)
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 10:21:41 +0000
Subject: [games_access] Legislating for Game Accessibility
In-Reply-To: <003e01c84261$80416750$0202a8c0@oneswitch>
References: <003701c834d4$043173c0$0202a8c0@oneswitch>
	<005401c8351b$59e1f9b0$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
	<001501c8351f$2a45b990$0202a8c0@oneswitch>
	<008201c83544$ea1a75b0$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
	<008a01c8354c$3c4c0220$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
	<p0623090fc3792b11ceb6@[130.126.29.70]>
	<BAY135-W27E8693A480E1BFFA9D3A7D9610@phx.gbl>
	<003e01c84261$80416750$0202a8c0@oneswitch>
Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20071220101522.04701bf0@192.168.100.200>

I sis some work for BECta in 2007 looking at the legal responsibilities of 
schools and software suppliers re accessibility and reasonable adjustment.

We obtained some legal advice re the DDA, SENDA and the Disability Equality 
Duty and certainly with regard to software in schools and web delivered 
materials in general the acts do apply.

When it comes to games suppliers it is not so certain and it seems to hinge 
around whether services or goods are being supplied.

Anyway you can see the legal bits at:

http://industry.becta.org.uk/display.cfm?resID=33481

Seasons greetings

David

At 17:06 19/12/07, you wrote:
>Don't want to stir this up, but....
>
>Not so sure that legislating for greater accessibility in software is such 
>an evil,...........................



>So if an expectancy of "reasonable adjustments" in commercial software was 
>introduced (which I truly belive will eventually happen) how badly would 
>the artistic side of things be affected? What is reasonable is the tricky 
>point... But I didn't see too many shop keepers crying about giving 
>greater access to shoppers with different abilities.
>
>Barrie


David Colven, Technical Advisor

The ACE Centre Advisory Trust
92 Windmill Road
Headington
Oxford      OX3 7DR

Web site at www.ace-centre.org.uk something new every week Tel +44 (0)1865 
759813 Fax +44 (0)1865 759810

DISCLAIMER:
The information in this message is confidential and may be legally 
privileged. It is intended solely for the addressee.  Access to this 
message by anyone else is unauthorised.  If you are not the intended 
recipient, any disclosure, copying, or distribution of the message, or any 
action or omission taken by you in reliance on it, is prohibited and may be 
unlawful.  Please immediately contact the sender if you have received this 
message in error. Thank you




From arthit73 at cablespeed.com  Thu Dec 20 12:56:11 2007
From: arthit73 at cablespeed.com (Robert Florio)
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 12:56:11 -0500
Subject: [games_access] Legislating for Game Accessibility
In-Reply-To: AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIxk6SwA
References: <003701c834d4$043173c0$0202a8c0@oneswitch><005401c8351b$59e1f9b0$6501a8c0@Inspiron><001501c8351f$2a45b990$0202a8c0@oneswitch><008201c83544$ea1a75b0$6501a8c0@Inspiron><008a01c8354c$3c4c0220$6501a8c0@Inspiron><p0623090fc3792b11ceb6@130.126.29.70><BAY135-W27E8693A480E1BFFA9D3A7D9610@phx.gbl><003e01c84261$80416750$0202a8c0@oneswitch><a29106ae0712191633t4fb67453ka52a5518995dbfa1@mail.gmail.com>
	AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIxk6SwA
Message-ID: <005801c84331$a0e99420$6601a8c0@Inspiron>

You are right John those abbreviations are really simple and straight to the
point.  It's a start.  Wonder if there are any ADA standard abbreviations
and they use that could be more recognizable across the universal plane of
acceptance?  If symbols are already used.

Robert

-----Original Message-----
From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
On Behalf Of John Bannick
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 4:57 AM
To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
Subject: Re: [games_access] Legislating for Game Accessibility

Tess,

Interesting you should suggest Accessibility Ratings.

Our small company makes computer games for the casual games market.
All of these games have a 7-128 Software Accessibility Rating and Age 
Appropriate Rating.
We post the ratings at the electronic point of purchase and in all our 
literature.
The Accessibility Ratings aren't perfect by any means, but they're a start.
(In fact, I'm working on a set of specific accessibilty criteria to back 
the ratings.)

Check out: http://www.7128.com/supportratings.html

John Bannick
CTO
7-128 Software

At 07:33 PM 12/19/2007, you wrote:
>On Dec 19, 2007 11:06 AM, Barrie Ellis <barrie.ellis at oneswitch.org.uk>
wrote:
> > So if an expectancy of "reasonable adjustments" in commercial software
was
> > introduced (which I truly belive will eventually happen) how badly 
> would the
> > artistic side of things be affected? What is reasonable is the tricky
> > point... But I didn't see too many shop keepers crying about giving
greater
> > access to shoppers with different abilities.
>
>You're comparing apples and oranges.  You can't just bolt a ramp onto
>a game, and call it accessible.
>
>There are some types of entertainment experiences that are simply
>incompatible with certain disabilities.  This is not due to
>insensitivity on the part of the artists, but the very nature of the
>experience.  Someone who is vision impaired, but not blind, might
>really enjoy the extra-large picture provided by IMAX movies, while
>someone who is completely blind will get no benefit from the giant
>screen.
>
>A lot of audio-only games for blind players are made by small,
>independent developers.  Many of them are labors of love.  Would you
>force these folks to invest extra time and money to develop a version
>of their game that could be played by deaf players?  Would you rob
>them of the time and money that they might have put towards making
>more games for the blind?  Legislation can hurt the very people we are
>trying to help.
>
>I continue to believe that the push for accessibility labeling
>standards is the right approach.  This does not mandate accessibility,
>but it does create market pressure, and get companies thinking about
>how they can tick off more checkboxes.  I guarantee you, you'd see
>much more widespread coverage for at least the low-hanging fruit (e.g.
>captioning, visual cues for auditory alerts, configurable controls,
>etc.) than you do right now.  As it is, it's hard to get companies to
>even remember that some people are left-handed!
>
>Tess
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>
>--
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.17.5/1190 - Release Date: 
>12/19/2007 7:37 PM

_______________________________________________
games_access mailing list
games_access at igda.org
http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access



From arthit73 at cablespeed.com  Thu Dec 20 12:57:20 2007
From: arthit73 at cablespeed.com (Robert Florio)
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 12:57:20 -0500
Subject: [games_access] Need help with Adobe Premiere Pro. Anyone please!
In-Reply-To: AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIyE6SwA
References: <003701c834d4$043173c0$0202a8c0@oneswitch><005401c8351b$59e1f9b0$6501a8c0@Inspiron><001501c8351f$2a45b990$0202a8c0@oneswitch><008201c83544$ea1a75b0$6501a8c0@Inspiron><008a01c8354c$3c4c0220$6501a8c0@Inspiron><p0623090fc3792b11ceb6@[130.126.29.70]><BAY135-W27E8693A480E1BFFA9D3A7D9610@phx.gbl><003e01c84261$80416750$0202a8c0@oneswitch>
	AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIyE6SwA
Message-ID: <005901c84331$c47d3ea0$6601a8c0@Inspiron>

http://www.trustnetmarketing.com/add-209-1-1-1-products_list.html   

OK.  I could use any help on finding version number two of Adobe Premiere
Pro 2.0.  As you know, I've been working on this documentary.  Well, funding
fell through from the state.  I went to buy it myself and the people about
program software program lied.

For some ridiculous reason if you create any document with version 2.0, the
newest version 3.0 that they are selling, no longer selling 2.0, will not
allow you to bring your files or timeline or your work into 3.0.
Ridiculous.!  I think I got a jerk at the company and to be things like a
really stupid marketing move for customers to just upgrade but they can't.

Anyway I found this web site link above and then download really cheap $110
isn't trustworthy I can't find out?  Does anyone know?  Normally it's $800.
$400 with student discount.  But nobody is selling 2.0 anymore.  Please
thanks.

Robert

-----Original Message-----
From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
On Behalf Of David Colven
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 5:22 AM
To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
Subject: Re: [games_access] Legislating for Game Accessibility

I sis some work for BECta in 2007 looking at the legal responsibilities of 
schools and software suppliers re accessibility and reasonable adjustment.

We obtained some legal advice re the DDA, SENDA and the Disability Equality 
Duty and certainly with regard to software in schools and web delivered 
materials in general the acts do apply.

When it comes to games suppliers it is not so certain and it seems to hinge 
around whether services or goods are being supplied.

Anyway you can see the legal bits at:

http://industry.becta.org.uk/display.cfm?resID=33481

Seasons greetings

David

At 17:06 19/12/07, you wrote:
>Don't want to stir this up, but....
>
>Not so sure that legislating for greater accessibility in software is such 
>an evil,...........................



>So if an expectancy of "reasonable adjustments" in commercial software was 
>introduced (which I truly belive will eventually happen) how badly would 
>the artistic side of things be affected? What is reasonable is the tricky 
>point... But I didn't see too many shop keepers crying about giving 
>greater access to shoppers with different abilities.
>
>Barrie


David Colven, Technical Advisor

The ACE Centre Advisory Trust
92 Windmill Road
Headington
Oxford      OX3 7DR

Web site at www.ace-centre.org.uk something new every week Tel +44 (0)1865 
759813 Fax +44 (0)1865 759810

DISCLAIMER:
The information in this message is confidential and may be legally 
privileged. It is intended solely for the addressee.  Access to this 
message by anyone else is unauthorised.  If you are not the intended 
recipient, any disclosure, copying, or distribution of the message, or any 
action or omission taken by you in reliance on it, is prohibited and may be 
unlawful.  Please immediately contact the sender if you have received this 
message in error. Thank you


_______________________________________________
games_access mailing list
games_access at igda.org
http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access



From foreversublime at hotmail.com  Thu Dec 20 15:54:52 2007
From: foreversublime at hotmail.com (Matthias Troup)
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 15:54:52 -0500
Subject: [games_access] Legislating for Game Accessibility
In-Reply-To: <013e01c842de$651be900$0202a8c0@oneswitch>
References: <003701c834d4$043173c0$0202a8c0@oneswitch><005401c8351b$59e1f9b0$6501a8c0@Inspiron><001501c8351f$2a45b990$0202a8c0@oneswitch><008201c83544$ea1a75b0$6501a8c0@Inspiron><008a01c8354c$3c4c0220$6501a8c0@Inspiron><p0623090fc3792b11ceb6@130.126.29.70><BAY135-W27E8693A480E1BFFA9D3A7D9610@phx.gbl><003e01c84261$80416750$0202a8c0@oneswitch>
	<a29106ae0712191633t4fb67453ka52a5518995dbfa1@mail.gmail.com> 
	<013e01c842de$651be900$0202a8c0@oneswitch>
Message-ID: <BAY135-W20C2715DDFA812CD09E71FD95D0@phx.gbl>


Barrie,
 
People don't want other people to *tell* them how/what to do their ^job^ much less be *forced* to compromize their ^passion^.
 
Then again, as a designer I love to play games and preach how x or y could have been done "correctly".  Hypocrite is me?  Ha!
 
-Matt> From: barrie.ellis at oneswitch.org.uk> To: games_access at igda.org> Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 08:00:31 +0000> Subject: Re: [games_access] Legislating for Game Accessibility> > I'm not 100% on either side of this fence - but the phrase "reasonable > adjustments" doesn't ask for universal accessibility anyway. That said, your > "rob them of time and money" does sound like some of the protests shop > keepers were making pre "Disability Discrimination Act". I think slowly > people get used to these concepts.> > How could "reasonble adjustments" be made reasonable with video games. I'm > not 100% sure to be honest. I just don't think it's anywhere near as > frightening as some people seem to think it is.> > Barrie> > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tess Snider" <this at malkyne.org>> To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>> Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 12:33 AM> Subject: Re: [games_access] Legislating for Game Accessibility> > > > On Dec 19, 2007 11:06 AM, Barrie Ellis <barrie.ellis at oneswitch.org.uk> > > wrote:> >> So if an expectancy of "reasonable adjustments" in commercial software > >> was> >> introduced (which I truly belive will eventually happen) how badly would > >> the> >> artistic side of things be affected? What is reasonable is the tricky> >> point... But I didn't see too many shop keepers crying about giving > >> greater> >> access to shoppers with different abilities.> >> > You're comparing apples and oranges. You can't just bolt a ramp onto> > a game, and call it accessible.> >> > There are some types of entertainment experiences that are simply> > incompatible with certain disabilities. This is not due to> > insensitivity on the part of the artists, but the very nature of the> > experience. Someone who is vision impaired, but not blind, might> > really enjoy the extra-large picture provided by IMAX movies, while> > someone who is completely blind will get no benefit from the giant> > screen.> >> > A lot of audio-only games for blind players are made by small,> > independent developers. Many of them are labors of love. Would you> > force these folks to invest extra time and money to develop a version> > of their game that could be played by deaf players? Would you rob> > them of the time and money that they might have put towards making> > more games for the blind? Legislation can hurt the very people we are> > trying to help.> >> > I continue to believe that the push for accessibility labeling> > standards is the right approach. This does not mandate accessibility,> > but it does create market pressure, and get companies thinking about> > how they can tick off more checkboxes. I guarantee you, you'd see> > much more widespread coverage for at least the low-hanging fruit (e.g.> > captioning, visual cues for auditory alerts, configurable controls,> > etc.) than you do right now. As it is, it's hard to get companies to> > even remember that some people are left-handed!> >> > Tess> > _______________________________________________> > games_access mailing list> > games_access at igda.org> > http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access > > > > _______________________________________________> games_access mailing list> games_access at igda.org> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
_________________________________________________________________
Don't get caught with egg on your face. Play Chicktionary!
http://club.live.com/chicktionary.aspx?icid=chick_wlhmtextlink1_dec
-------------- next part --------------
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From eelke.folmer at gmail.com  Thu Dec 20 16:15:54 2007
From: eelke.folmer at gmail.com (Eelke Folmer)
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 13:15:54 -0800
Subject: [games_access] Gordon's trigger finger
Message-ID: <836db6300712201315i3f11339v6b4a6c18cfb5911c@mail.gmail.com>

Hey Folks,

We made our mod available for download on our website.
http://www.helpyouplay.com/gtf.html

If you have a copy of halflife 2 deathmatch try it out. All feedback
is welcome. The bot occasionally gets stuck but you can kill yourself
by pressing the 'k' key.

We are working on a version that allows you to play the full halflife 2 game.

Cheers Eelke
-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eelke Folmer                           Assistant Professor
Department of CS&E/171
University of Nevada              Reno, Nevada 89557
Game interaction design        www.helpyouplay.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------------


From richard at audiogames.net  Thu Dec 20 16:27:56 2007
From: richard at audiogames.net (AudioGames.net)
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 22:27:56 +0100
Subject: [games_access] Gordon's trigger finger
References: <836db6300712201315i3f11339v6b4a6c18cfb5911c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <007101c8434f$300069f0$6402a8c0@Delletje>

Hi,

Can you add a simple text file on how to install?

Thanks,

Richard


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Eelke Folmer" <eelke.folmer at gmail.com>
To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 10:15 PM
Subject: [games_access] Gordon's trigger finger


> Hey Folks,
>
> We made our mod available for download on our website.
> http://www.helpyouplay.com/gtf.html
>
> If you have a copy of halflife 2 deathmatch try it out. All feedback
> is welcome. The bot occasionally gets stuck but you can kill yourself
> by pressing the 'k' key.
>
> We are working on a version that allows you to play the full halflife 2 
> game.
>
> Cheers Eelke
> -- 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Eelke Folmer                           Assistant Professor
> Department of CS&E/171
> University of Nevada              Reno, Nevada 89557
> Game interaction design        www.helpyouplay.com
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access 



From jbannick at 7128.com  Thu Dec 20 18:28:41 2007
From: jbannick at 7128.com (John Bannick)
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 18:28:41 -0500
Subject: [games_access] Legislating for Game Accessibility
In-Reply-To: <005801c84331$a0e99420$6601a8c0@Inspiron>
References: <003701c834d4$043173c0$0202a8c0@oneswitch>
	<005401c8351b$59e1f9b0$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
	<001501c8351f$2a45b990$0202a8c0@oneswitch>
	<008201c83544$ea1a75b0$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
	<008a01c8354c$3c4c0220$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
	<p0623090fc3792b11ceb6@130.126.29.70>
	<BAY135-W27E8693A480E1BFFA9D3A7D9610@phx.gbl>
	<003e01c84261$80416750$0202a8c0@oneswitch>
	<a29106ae0712191633t4fb67453ka52a5518995dbfa1@mail.gmail.com>
	<005801c84331$a0e99420$6601a8c0@Inspiron>
Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.2.20071220182715.01df09f0@enigami.com>

Robert,

That's a great idea!
I'll look for any more common sets of tags.

Thanks,

John

At 12:56 PM 12/20/2007, you wrote:
>You are right John those abbreviations are really simple and straight to the
>point.  It's a start.  Wonder if there are any ADA standard abbreviations
>and they use that could be more recognizable across the universal plane of
>acceptance?  If symbols are already used.
>
>Robert
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
>On Behalf Of John Bannick
>Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 4:57 AM
>To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
>Subject: Re: [games_access] Legislating for Game Accessibility
>
>Tess,
>
>Interesting you should suggest Accessibility Ratings.
>
>Our small company makes computer games for the casual games market.
>All of these games have a 7-128 Software Accessibility Rating and Age
>Appropriate Rating.
>We post the ratings at the electronic point of purchase and in all our
>literature.
>The Accessibility Ratings aren't perfect by any means, but they're a start.
>(In fact, I'm working on a set of specific accessibilty criteria to back
>the ratings.)
>
>Check out: http://www.7128.com/supportratings.html
>
>John Bannick
>CTO
>7-128 Software
>
>At 07:33 PM 12/19/2007, you wrote:
> >On Dec 19, 2007 11:06 AM, Barrie Ellis <barrie.ellis at oneswitch.org.uk>
>wrote:
> > > So if an expectancy of "reasonable adjustments" in commercial software
>was
> > > introduced (which I truly belive will eventually happen) how badly
> > would the
> > > artistic side of things be affected? What is reasonable is the tricky
> > > point... But I didn't see too many shop keepers crying about giving
>greater
> > > access to shoppers with different abilities.
> >
> >You're comparing apples and oranges.  You can't just bolt a ramp onto
> >a game, and call it accessible.
> >
> >There are some types of entertainment experiences that are simply
> >incompatible with certain disabilities.  This is not due to
> >insensitivity on the part of the artists, but the very nature of the
> >experience.  Someone who is vision impaired, but not blind, might
> >really enjoy the extra-large picture provided by IMAX movies, while
> >someone who is completely blind will get no benefit from the giant
> >screen.
> >
> >A lot of audio-only games for blind players are made by small,
> >independent developers.  Many of them are labors of love.  Would you
> >force these folks to invest extra time and money to develop a version
> >of their game that could be played by deaf players?  Would you rob
> >them of the time and money that they might have put towards making
> >more games for the blind?  Legislation can hurt the very people we are
> >trying to help.
> >
> >I continue to believe that the push for accessibility labeling
> >standards is the right approach.  This does not mandate accessibility,
> >but it does create market pressure, and get companies thinking about
> >how they can tick off more checkboxes.  I guarantee you, you'd see
> >much more widespread coverage for at least the low-hanging fruit (e.g.
> >captioning, visual cues for auditory alerts, configurable controls,
> >etc.) than you do right now.  As it is, it's hard to get companies to
> >even remember that some people are left-handed!
> >
> >Tess
> >_______________________________________________
> >games_access mailing list
> >games_access at igda.org
> >http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
> >
> >
> >--
> >No virus found in this incoming message.
> >Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> >Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.17.5/1190 - Release Date:
> >12/19/2007 7:37 PM
>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>
>--
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.5/1191 - Release Date: 
>12/20/2007 2:14 PM



From hinn at uiuc.edu  Thu Dec 20 19:22:07 2007
From: hinn at uiuc.edu (d. michelle hinn)
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 18:22:07 -0600
Subject: [games_access] Happy Seasons Greetings/New Years/Etc!
In-Reply-To: <007101c8434f$300069f0$6402a8c0@Delletje>
References: <836db6300712201315i3f11339v6b4a6c18cfb5911c@mail.gmail.com>
	<007101c8434f$300069f0$6402a8c0@Delletje>
Message-ID: <p06230922c390b12f31e3@[130.126.29.18]>

Hi all,

I'm about to head out (tomorrow morning) for about 10 days of travel 
from Champaign, IL to Detroit, MI then to Tampa, Florida (the colder 
norther part, not the 365 days/year warm parts), back to Detroit, and 
then back to exciting Champaign-Urbana before the new year hits. I 
won't google up a "how this translates to European travel given 
differences in vehicle speeds, etc" because, well, even I'm not that 
nutty. :) Unfortunately I got hit by some death flu (and I even got 
the flu shot!) for the past 48 hours or so and am just now getting it 
shaken off a little bit!) -- so I have a lot to catch up on as the 
brain fog clears.

First, I wanted to wish everyone on the list a happy new year (at 
least according to most Western calendars)! It's been a rough road at 
times for us this year but we made it through, important lessons were 
learned, and we've experienced lots of growth. I know for a few of us 
it's been a tough year in our personal lives as well and I can 
appreciate that we are a volunteer group and that life gets tough to 
balance. We do what we can with the time we have to try and make 
change. And I think if you add up everything that's happened in the 
last year, we've gotten a lot done. We've learned important lessons 
on approaches not to take, approaches we haven't yet taken, and so 
forth. We have an exciting 2008 ahead of us, no doubt.

Second, I want to thank everyone for their participation this year! 
There's always more to do but we have to recognize that we are a 
small group (for now!) and feel good about what we've been able to do 
in the world of game accessibility. We're starting to tackle some of 
the harder issues now -- social justice, legalities, 
advantages/disadvantages of a symbol system for rating accessibility 
(long talked about in the SIG but has it's trickiness in how the 
check/balance system will work like the ESRP with their full time 
employees), the complexities of guidelines, the academic puzzle of 
how to frame what we do and say in a larger design paradigm, and 
much, much more.

Third, I want to take the time to encourage everyone to get refreshed 
and ready for a new and exciting year with the SIG -- "the book" will 
happen this year (a general announcement will follow as soon as legal 
stuff is worked out), we have conferences to look forward to, work 
with the Electronic Consumers Association (the ECA that has been 
formed to help fight the legal shutting down of games -- one that we 
can use to help show a potential positive side that the industry 
could/should be contributing to as much as they can because it HELPS 
put the industry in a positive light), a grant to work through, fund 
raising, a new website...so much more! This is exciting!

So I will be reachable while I'm gone but obviously things will slow 
down from my end for the next week or so, as I imagine will be the 
case for others as well. Relax and enjoy time with family. And, as I 
have said before, hope for peace in the new year. The world, more 
than ever, needs some healing.

Michelle
Chairperson, IGDA Game Accessibility SIG


From hinn at uiuc.edu  Thu Dec 20 19:35:19 2007
From: hinn at uiuc.edu (d. michelle hinn)
Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 18:35:19 -0600
Subject: [games_access] Legislating for Game Accessibility
In-Reply-To: <005801c84331$a0e99420$6601a8c0@Inspiron>
References: <003701c834d4$043173c0$0202a8c0@oneswitch><005401c8351b$59e1f9b0$6501a8c0@
	Inspiron><001501c8351f$2a45b990$0202a8c0@oneswitch><008201c83544$ea1a75b0$
	6501a8c0@Inspiron><008a01c8354c$3c4c0220$6501a8c0@Inspiron><p0623090fc3792
	b11ceb6@130.126.29.70><BAY135-W27E8693A480E1BFFA9D3A7D9610@phx.gbl><003e01
	c84261$80416750$0202a8c0@oneswitch><a29106ae0712191633t4fb67453ka52a551899
	5dbfa1@mail.gmail.com>	AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIxk6SwA
	<005801c84331$a0e99420$6601a8c0@Inspiron>
Message-ID: <p06230923c390b7cdbf01@[130.126.29.18]>

Ratings have been something we've talked about for a long while now 
and I'm for them if we can come up with a way that can prevent them 
from being misleading or misused. For example, the ESRB has paid 
employees that help make sure that a game meets the ratings and are 
forced to meet again about games when "hidden" content that breaks 
the rating comes about (Grand Theft Auto...). We don't have that at 
this point. However I'm working with the ESA and the ECA in trying to 
see how we could set up something like this for accessibility 
(pros/cons/etc). For instance, we wouldn't like a developer to 
advertise closed captioning when all they provide is some subtitles 
with no thought to ambient sounds, cut scenes, etc. We'd need to work 
on a system where it's clear cut when we can be comfortable saying 
"yes, the use of this symbol means that the IGDA Game Accessibility 
SIG (or an ESA sponsored Accessibility Ratings Board if we can get 
that kind of commitment/buy in from them) agrees that this game meets 
a certain standard of closed captioning and we agree that they can 
use the symbol." After all, the last thing we would want is for a 
game company to advertise a feature that really isn't in the game to 
the level that it makes the game accessible to a certain audience -- 
it would undermine the ratings system and open things up to legal 
battles that might turn the industry against us (ie, the industry 
might say "hey...we were just trying to help but we got it wrong and 
no one was there to correct us -- had we not bothered at all, we 
wouldn't be in this lawsuit for false advertisement!). So a lot of 
thinking needs to go into this -- I believe it's something we should 
move toward but we'll need the assistance of folks from the ESA and 
such to help us get this right.

Yeah...I know...good intentions too often spring to ugly results. But 
the more we can think through those ahead of time, the better! In the 
meantime, we can keep at this and keep pointing out when a company 
does something that is exemplary (even if they don't realize they did 
it!). :)

Michelle

>You are right John those abbreviations are really simple and straight to the
>point.  It's a start.  Wonder if there are any ADA standard abbreviations
>and they use that could be more recognizable across the universal plane of
>acceptance?  If symbols are already used.
>
>Robert
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
>On Behalf Of John Bannick
>Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 4:57 AM
>To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
>Subject: Re: [games_access] Legislating for Game Accessibility
>
>Tess,
>
>Interesting you should suggest Accessibility Ratings.
>
>Our small company makes computer games for the casual games market.
>All of these games have a 7-128 Software Accessibility Rating and Age
>Appropriate Rating.
>We post the ratings at the electronic point of purchase and in all our
>literature.
>The Accessibility Ratings aren't perfect by any means, but they're a start.
>(In fact, I'm working on a set of specific accessibilty criteria to back
>the ratings.)
>
>Check out: http://www.7128.com/supportratings.html
>
>John Bannick
>CTO
>7-128 Software
>
>At 07:33 PM 12/19/2007, you wrote:
>>On Dec 19, 2007 11:06 AM, Barrie Ellis <barrie.ellis at oneswitch.org.uk>
>wrote:
>>  > So if an expectancy of "reasonable adjustments" in commercial software
>was
>>  > introduced (which I truly belive will eventually happen) how badly
>>  would the
>>  > artistic side of things be affected? What is reasonable is the tricky
>>  > point... But I didn't see too many shop keepers crying about giving
>greater
>>  > access to shoppers with different abilities.
>>
>>You're comparing apples and oranges.  You can't just bolt a ramp onto
>>a game, and call it accessible.
>>
>>There are some types of entertainment experiences that are simply
>>incompatible with certain disabilities.  This is not due to
>  >insensitivity on the part of the artists, but the very nature of the
>>experience.  Someone who is vision impaired, but not blind, might
>>really enjoy the extra-large picture provided by IMAX movies, while
>>someone who is completely blind will get no benefit from the giant
>>screen.
>>
>>A lot of audio-only games for blind players are made by small,
>>independent developers.  Many of them are labors of love.  Would you
>>force these folks to invest extra time and money to develop a version
>>of their game that could be played by deaf players?  Would you rob
>>them of the time and money that they might have put towards making
>>more games for the blind?  Legislation can hurt the very people we are
>>trying to help.
>>
>>I continue to believe that the push for accessibility labeling
>>standards is the right approach.  This does not mandate accessibility,
>>but it does create market pressure, and get companies thinking about
>>how they can tick off more checkboxes.  I guarantee you, you'd see
>>much more widespread coverage for at least the low-hanging fruit (e.g.
>>captioning, visual cues for auditory alerts, configurable controls,
>>etc.) than you do right now.  As it is, it's hard to get companies to
>>even remember that some people are left-handed!
>>
>>Tess
>>_______________________________________________
>>games_access mailing list
>>games_access at igda.org
>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>
>>
>>--
>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.17.5/1190 - Release Date:
>>12/19/2007 7:37 PM
>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access



From thomas at pininteractive.com  Fri Dec 21 04:56:01 2007
From: thomas at pininteractive.com (Thomas Westin)
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 10:56:01 +0100
Subject: [games_access] Happy Seasons Greetings/New Years/Etc!
In-Reply-To: <p06230922c390b12f31e3@[130.126.29.18]>
References: <836db6300712201315i3f11339v6b4a6c18cfb5911c@mail.gmail.com><007101c8434f$300069f0$6402a8c0@Delletje>
	<p06230922c390b12f31e3@[130.126.29.18]>
Message-ID: <0E42272C-C708-410C-A4FD-637A0A96E82E@pininteractive.com>

Thanks Michelle,

and Happy <insert  your favorite holiday> to you all from me too!

Got some flu myself but not too bad, still up and running

I'll be offline for a week or two now, will rest by doing some  
physical work, renovating our bathroom so I'll be busy but it'll be fun

/thomas

On 21 dec 2007, at 01.22, d. michelle hinn wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I'm about to head out (tomorrow morning) for about 10 days of travel  
> from Champaign, IL to Detroit, MI then to Tampa, Florida (the colder  
> norther part, not the 365 days/year warm parts), back to Detroit,  
> and then back to exciting Champaign-Urbana before the new year hits.  
> I won't google up a "how this translates to European travel given  
> differences in vehicle speeds, etc" because, well, even I'm not that  
> nutty. :) Unfortunately I got hit by some death flu (and I even got  
> the flu shot!) for the past 48 hours or so and am just now getting  
> it shaken off a little bit!) -- so I have a lot to catch up on as  
> the brain fog clears.
>
> First, I wanted to wish everyone on the list a happy new year (at  
> least according to most Western calendars)! It's been a rough road  
> at times for us this year but we made it through, important lessons  
> were learned, and we've experienced lots of growth. I know for a few  
> of us it's been a tough year in our personal lives as well and I can  
> appreciate that we are a volunteer group and that life gets tough to  
> balance. We do what we can with the time we have to try and make  
> change. And I think if you add up everything that's happened in the  
> last year, we've gotten a lot done. We've learned important lessons  
> on approaches not to take, approaches we haven't yet taken, and so  
> forth. We have an exciting 2008 ahead of us, no doubt.
>
> Second, I want to thank everyone for their participation this year!  
> There's always more to do but we have to recognize that we are a  
> small group (for now!) and feel good about what we've been able to  
> do in the world of game accessibility. We're starting to tackle some  
> of the harder issues now -- social justice, legalities, advantages/ 
> disadvantages of a symbol system for rating accessibility (long  
> talked about in the SIG but has it's trickiness in how the check/ 
> balance system will work like the ESRP with their full time  
> employees), the complexities of guidelines, the academic puzzle of  
> how to frame what we do and say in a larger design paradigm, and  
> much, much more.
>
> Third, I want to take the time to encourage everyone to get  
> refreshed and ready for a new and exciting year with the SIG -- "the  
> book" will happen this year (a general announcement will follow as  
> soon as legal stuff is worked out), we have conferences to look  
> forward to, work with the Electronic Consumers Association (the ECA  
> that has been formed to help fight the legal shutting down of games  
> -- one that we can use to help show a potential positive side that  
> the industry could/should be contributing to as much as they can  
> because it HELPS put the industry in a positive light), a grant to  
> work through, fund raising, a new website...so much more! This is  
> exciting!
>
> So I will be reachable while I'm gone but obviously things will slow  
> down from my end for the next week or so, as I imagine will be the  
> case for others as well. Relax and enjoy time with family. And, as I  
> have said before, hope for peace in the new year. The world, more  
> than ever, needs some healing.
>
> Michelle
> Chairperson, IGDA Game Accessibility SIG
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access



From jbannick at 7128.com  Fri Dec 21 05:24:04 2007
From: jbannick at 7128.com (John Bannick)
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 05:24:04 -0500
Subject: [games_access] Legislating for Game Accessibility
In-Reply-To: <p06230923c390b7cdbf01@[130.126.29.18]>
References: <003701c834d4$043173c0$0202a8c0@oneswitch>
	<005401c8351b$59e1f9b0$6501a8c0@ Inspiron>
	<001501c8351f$2a45b990$0202a8c0@oneswitch>
	<008201c83544$ea1a75b0$ 6501a8c0@Inspiron>
	<008a01c8354c$3c4c0220$6501a8c0@Inspiron>
	<p0623090fc3792 b11ceb6@130.126.29.70>
	<BAY135-W27E8693A480E1BFFA9D3A7D9610@phx.gbl>
	<003e01 c84261$80416750$0202a8c0@oneswitch>
	<a29106ae0712191633t4fb67453ka52a551899 5dbfa1@mail.gmail.com>
	<005801c84331$a0e99420$6601a8c0@Inspiron>
	<p06230923c390b7cdbf01@[130.126.29.18]>
Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.2.20071221052015.01ded8f0@enigami.com>

Michelle,

All excellent points.
Fortunately, the 7-128 Software Accessibility Ratings apply only to our own 
stuff.
(Though we do have some heated discussions between Development [mostly me] 
and Marketing [them])

Happy Holidays and Good Trip,

John


At 07:35 PM 12/20/2007, you wrote:
>Ratings have been something we've talked about for a long while now and 
>I'm for them if we can come up with a way that can prevent them from being 
>misleading or misused. For example, the ESRB has paid employees that help 
>make sure that a game meets the ratings and are forced to meet again about 
>games when "hidden" content that breaks the rating comes about (Grand 
>Theft Auto...). We don't have that at this point. However I'm working with 
>the ESA and the ECA in trying to see how we could set up something like 
>this for accessibility (pros/cons/etc). For instance, we wouldn't like a 
>developer to advertise closed captioning when all they provide is some 
>subtitles with no thought to ambient sounds, cut scenes, etc. We'd need to 
>work on a system where it's clear cut when we can be comfortable saying 
>"yes, the use of this symbol means that the IGDA Game Accessibility SIG 
>(or an ESA sponsored Accessibility Ratings Board if we can get that kind 
>of commitment/buy in from them) agrees that this game meets a certain 
>standard of closed captioning and we agree that they can use the symbol." 
>After all, the last thing we would want is for a game company to advertise 
>a feature that really isn't in the game to the level that it makes the 
>game accessible to a certain audience -- it would undermine the ratings 
>system and open things up to legal battles that might turn the industry 
>against us (ie, the industry might say "hey...we were just trying to help 
>but we got it wrong and no one was there to correct us -- had we not 
>bothered at all, we wouldn't be in this lawsuit for false advertisement!). 
>So a lot of thinking needs to go into this -- I believe it's something we 
>should move toward but we'll need the assistance of folks from the ESA and 
>such to help us get this right.
>
>Yeah...I know...good intentions too often spring to ugly results. But the 
>more we can think through those ahead of time, the better! In the 
>meantime, we can keep at this and keep pointing out when a company does 
>something that is exemplary (even if they don't realize they did it!). :)
>
>Michelle
>
>>You are right John those abbreviations are really simple and straight to the
>>point.  It's a start.  Wonder if there are any ADA standard abbreviations
>>and they use that could be more recognizable across the universal plane of
>>acceptance?  If symbols are already used.
>>
>>Robert
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
>>On Behalf Of John Bannick
>>Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 4:57 AM
>>To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
>>Subject: Re: [games_access] Legislating for Game Accessibility
>>
>>Tess,
>>
>>Interesting you should suggest Accessibility Ratings.
>>
>>Our small company makes computer games for the casual games market.
>>All of these games have a 7-128 Software Accessibility Rating and Age
>>Appropriate Rating.
>>We post the ratings at the electronic point of purchase and in all our
>>literature.
>>The Accessibility Ratings aren't perfect by any means, but they're a start.
>>(In fact, I'm working on a set of specific accessibilty criteria to back
>>the ratings.)
>>
>>Check out: http://www.7128.com/supportratings.html
>>
>>John Bannick
>>CTO
>>7-128 Software
>>
>>At 07:33 PM 12/19/2007, you wrote:
>>>On Dec 19, 2007 11:06 AM, Barrie Ellis <barrie.ellis at oneswitch.org.uk>
>>wrote:
>>>  > So if an expectancy of "reasonable adjustments" in commercial software
>>was
>>>  > introduced (which I truly belive will eventually happen) how badly
>>>  would the
>>>  > artistic side of things be affected? What is reasonable is the tricky
>>>  > point... But I didn't see too many shop keepers crying about giving
>>greater
>>>  > access to shoppers with different abilities.
>>>
>>>You're comparing apples and oranges.  You can't just bolt a ramp onto
>>>a game, and call it accessible.
>>>
>>>There are some types of entertainment experiences that are simply
>>>incompatible with certain disabilities.  This is not due to
>>  >insensitivity on the part of the artists, but the very nature of the
>>>experience.  Someone who is vision impaired, but not blind, might
>>>really enjoy the extra-large picture provided by IMAX movies, while
>>>someone who is completely blind will get no benefit from the giant
>>>screen.
>>>
>>>A lot of audio-only games for blind players are made by small,
>>>independent developers.  Many of them are labors of love.  Would you
>>>force these folks to invest extra time and money to develop a version
>>>of their game that could be played by deaf players?  Would you rob
>>>them of the time and money that they might have put towards making
>>>more games for the blind?  Legislation can hurt the very people we are
>>>trying to help.
>>>
>>>I continue to believe that the push for accessibility labeling
>>>standards is the right approach.  This does not mandate accessibility,
>>>but it does create market pressure, and get companies thinking about
>>>how they can tick off more checkboxes.  I guarantee you, you'd see
>>>much more widespread coverage for at least the low-hanging fruit (e.g.
>>>captioning, visual cues for auditory alerts, configurable controls,
>>>etc.) than you do right now.  As it is, it's hard to get companies to
>>>even remember that some people are left-handed!
>>>
>>>Tess
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>games_access mailing list
>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>
>>>
>>>--
>>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>>Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.17.5/1190 - Release Date:
>>>12/19/2007 7:37 PM
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>games_access mailing list
>>games_access at igda.org
>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>games_access mailing list
>>games_access at igda.org
>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>
>--
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 
>269.17.5/1191 - Release Date: 12/20/2007 2:14 PM



From barrie.ellis at oneswitch.org.uk  Fri Dec 21 12:22:26 2007
From: barrie.ellis at oneswitch.org.uk (Barrie Ellis)
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 17:22:26 -0000
Subject: [games_access] Happy Holidays!
Message-ID: <004401c843f6$0eab43e0$0202a8c0@oneswitch>

Happy Christmas/Holidays and all the best for 2008 to everyone too! I think 
2008 is going to be a great year!

Barrie
www.OneSwitch.org.uk 





From arthit73 at cablespeed.com  Fri Dec 21 13:36:20 2007
From: arthit73 at cablespeed.com (Robert Florio)
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 13:36:20 -0500
Subject: [games_access] Happy Seasons Greetings/New Years/Etc!
In-Reply-To: AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIxE7ywA
References: <836db6300712201315i3f11339v6b4a6c18cfb5911c@mail.gmail.com><007101c8434f$300069f0$6402a8c0@Delletje>
	AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIxE7ywA
Message-ID: <00bc01c84400$62bd96e0$6601a8c0@Inspiron>

That's great Michelle thank you so much.  It's been an honor and a pleasure
working with all of you and continue to work with all of you throughout the
days and years of our lives.  Have a great holiday and hopefully appreciate
a wonderful things you have.

Robert
www.RobertFlorio.com   

-----Original Message-----
From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
On Behalf Of d. michelle hinn
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 7:22 PM
To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
Subject: [games_access] Happy Seasons Greetings/New Years/Etc!

Hi all,

I'm about to head out (tomorrow morning) for about 10 days of travel 
from Champaign, IL to Detroit, MI then to Tampa, Florida (the colder 
norther part, not the 365 days/year warm parts), back to Detroit, and 
then back to exciting Champaign-Urbana before the new year hits. I 
won't google up a "how this translates to European travel given 
differences in vehicle speeds, etc" because, well, even I'm not that 
nutty. :) Unfortunately I got hit by some death flu (and I even got 
the flu shot!) for the past 48 hours or so and am just now getting it 
shaken off a little bit!) -- so I have a lot to catch up on as the 
brain fog clears.

First, I wanted to wish everyone on the list a happy new year (at 
least according to most Western calendars)! It's been a rough road at 
times for us this year but we made it through, important lessons were 
learned, and we've experienced lots of growth. I know for a few of us 
it's been a tough year in our personal lives as well and I can 
appreciate that we are a volunteer group and that life gets tough to 
balance. We do what we can with the time we have to try and make 
change. And I think if you add up everything that's happened in the 
last year, we've gotten a lot done. We've learned important lessons 
on approaches not to take, approaches we haven't yet taken, and so 
forth. We have an exciting 2008 ahead of us, no doubt.

Second, I want to thank everyone for their participation this year! 
There's always more to do but we have to recognize that we are a 
small group (for now!) and feel good about what we've been able to do 
in the world of game accessibility. We're starting to tackle some of 
the harder issues now -- social justice, legalities, 
advantages/disadvantages of a symbol system for rating accessibility 
(long talked about in the SIG but has it's trickiness in how the 
check/balance system will work like the ESRP with their full time 
employees), the complexities of guidelines, the academic puzzle of 
how to frame what we do and say in a larger design paradigm, and 
much, much more.

Third, I want to take the time to encourage everyone to get refreshed 
and ready for a new and exciting year with the SIG -- "the book" will 
happen this year (a general announcement will follow as soon as legal 
stuff is worked out), we have conferences to look forward to, work 
with the Electronic Consumers Association (the ECA that has been 
formed to help fight the legal shutting down of games -- one that we 
can use to help show a potential positive side that the industry 
could/should be contributing to as much as they can because it HELPS 
put the industry in a positive light), a grant to work through, fund 
raising, a new website...so much more! This is exciting!

So I will be reachable while I'm gone but obviously things will slow 
down from my end for the next week or so, as I imagine will be the 
case for others as well. Relax and enjoy time with family. And, as I 
have said before, hope for peace in the new year. The world, more 
than ever, needs some healing.

Michelle
Chairperson, IGDA Game Accessibility SIG
_______________________________________________
games_access mailing list
games_access at igda.org
http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access



From glinert at mit.edu  Fri Dec 21 13:48:27 2007
From: glinert at mit.edu (Eitan Glinert)
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 13:48:27 -0500
Subject: [games_access] Happy Seasons Greetings/New Years/Etc!
In-Reply-To: <0E42272C-C708-410C-A4FD-637A0A96E82E@pininteractive.com>
References: <836db6300712201315i3f11339v6b4a6c18cfb5911c@mail.gmail.com>
	<007101c8434f$300069f0$6402a8c0@Delletje>
	<p06230922c390b12f31e3@130.126.29.18>
	<0E42272C-C708-410C-A4FD-637A0A96E82E@pininteractive.com>
Message-ID: <3dd2060e0712211048p4684fd58k62c1124e5e17027f@mail.gmail.com>

Merry Festivus, everyone!
Eitan

On Dec 21, 2007 4:56 AM, Thomas Westin <thomas at pininteractive.com> wrote:

> Thanks Michelle,
>
> and Happy <insert  your favorite holiday> to you all from me too!
>
> Got some flu myself but not too bad, still up and running
>
> I'll be offline for a week or two now, will rest by doing some
> physical work, renovating our bathroom so I'll be busy but it'll be fun
>
> /thomas
>
> On 21 dec 2007, at 01.22, d. michelle hinn wrote:
>
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I'm about to head out (tomorrow morning) for about 10 days of travel
> > from Champaign, IL to Detroit, MI then to Tampa, Florida (the colder
> > norther part, not the 365 days/year warm parts), back to Detroit,
> > and then back to exciting Champaign-Urbana before the new year hits.
> > I won't google up a "how this translates to European travel given
> > differences in vehicle speeds, etc" because, well, even I'm not that
> > nutty. :) Unfortunately I got hit by some death flu (and I even got
> > the flu shot!) for the past 48 hours or so and am just now getting
> > it shaken off a little bit!) -- so I have a lot to catch up on as
> > the brain fog clears.
> >
> > First, I wanted to wish everyone on the list a happy new year (at
> > least according to most Western calendars)! It's been a rough road
> > at times for us this year but we made it through, important lessons
> > were learned, and we've experienced lots of growth. I know for a few
> > of us it's been a tough year in our personal lives as well and I can
> > appreciate that we are a volunteer group and that life gets tough to
> > balance. We do what we can with the time we have to try and make
> > change. And I think if you add up everything that's happened in the
> > last year, we've gotten a lot done. We've learned important lessons
> > on approaches not to take, approaches we haven't yet taken, and so
> > forth. We have an exciting 2008 ahead of us, no doubt.
> >
> > Second, I want to thank everyone for their participation this year!
> > There's always more to do but we have to recognize that we are a
> > small group (for now!) and feel good about what we've been able to
> > do in the world of game accessibility. We're starting to tackle some
> > of the harder issues now -- social justice, legalities, advantages/
> > disadvantages of a symbol system for rating accessibility (long
> > talked about in the SIG but has it's trickiness in how the check/
> > balance system will work like the ESRP with their full time
> > employees), the complexities of guidelines, the academic puzzle of
> > how to frame what we do and say in a larger design paradigm, and
> > much, much more.
> >
> > Third, I want to take the time to encourage everyone to get
> > refreshed and ready for a new and exciting year with the SIG -- "the
> > book" will happen this year (a general announcement will follow as
> > soon as legal stuff is worked out), we have conferences to look
> > forward to, work with the Electronic Consumers Association (the ECA
> > that has been formed to help fight the legal shutting down of games
> > -- one that we can use to help show a potential positive side that
> > the industry could/should be contributing to as much as they can
> > because it HELPS put the industry in a positive light), a grant to
> > work through, fund raising, a new website...so much more! This is
> > exciting!
> >
> > So I will be reachable while I'm gone but obviously things will slow
> > down from my end for the next week or so, as I imagine will be the
> > case for others as well. Relax and enjoy time with family. And, as I
> > have said before, hope for peace in the new year. The world, more
> > than ever, needs some healing.
> >
> > Michelle
> > Chairperson, IGDA Game Accessibility SIG
> > _______________________________________________
> > games_access mailing list
> > games_access at igda.org
> > http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://pairlist7.pair.net/pipermail/games_access/attachments/20071221/b0070ff3/attachment.htm>

From eelke.folmer at gmail.com  Fri Dec 21 21:05:16 2007
From: eelke.folmer at gmail.com (Eelke Folmer)
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 18:05:16 -0800
Subject: [games_access] Happy Seasons Greetings/New Years/Etc!
In-Reply-To: <3dd2060e0712211048p4684fd58k62c1124e5e17027f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <836db6300712201315i3f11339v6b4a6c18cfb5911c@mail.gmail.com>
	<007101c8434f$300069f0$6402a8c0@Delletje>
	<p06230922c390b12f31e3@130.126.29.18>
	<0E42272C-C708-410C-A4FD-637A0A96E82E@pininteractive.com>
	<3dd2060e0712211048p4684fd58k62c1124e5e17027f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <836db6300712211805h4b7e61a8s12910a6ae60f854c@mail.gmail.com>

Happy Holidays!

eitan> I hope you didn't do the "Feats of Strength" with  your dad for
festivus! ;-)

Too bad our IGF submissions (gordon's trigger finger & your game)
didn't make it to the final round. ;-(  hopefully more luck next year.

Cheers Eelke





On 21/12/2007, Eitan Glinert <glinert at mit.edu> wrote:
> Merry Festivus, everyone!
> Eitan
>
>
> On Dec 21, 2007 4:56 AM, Thomas Westin <thomas at pininteractive.com> wrote:
> > Thanks Michelle,
> >
> > and Happy <insert  your favorite holiday> to you all from me too!
> >
> > Got some flu myself but not too bad, still up and running
> >
> > I'll be offline for a week or two now, will rest by doing some
> > physical work, renovating our bathroom so I'll be busy but it'll be fun
> >
> > /thomas
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 21 dec 2007, at 01.22, d. michelle hinn wrote:
> >
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > I'm about to head out (tomorrow morning) for about 10 days of travel
> > > from Champaign, IL to Detroit, MI then to Tampa, Florida (the colder
> > > norther part, not the 365 days/year warm parts), back to Detroit,
> > > and then back to exciting Champaign-Urbana before the new year hits.
> > > I won't google up a "how this translates to European travel given
> > > differences in vehicle speeds, etc" because, well, even I'm not that
> > > nutty. :) Unfortunately I got hit by some death flu (and I even got
> > > the flu shot!) for the past 48 hours or so and am just now getting
> > > it shaken off a little bit!) -- so I have a lot to catch up on as
> > > the brain fog clears.
> > >
> > > First, I wanted to wish everyone on the list a happy new year (at
> > > least according to most Western calendars)! It's been a rough road
> > > at times for us this year but we made it through, important lessons
> > > were learned, and we've experienced lots of growth. I know for a few
> > > of us it's been a tough year in our personal lives as well and I can
> > > appreciate that we are a volunteer group and that life gets tough to
> > > balance. We do what we can with the time we have to try and make
> > > change. And I think if you add up everything that's happened in the
> > > last year, we've gotten a lot done. We've learned important lessons
> > > on approaches not to take, approaches we haven't yet taken, and so
> > > forth. We have an exciting 2008 ahead of us, no doubt.
> > >
> > > Second, I want to thank everyone for their participation this year!
> > > There's always more to do but we have to recognize that we are a
> > > small group (for now!) and feel good about what we've been able to
> > > do in the world of game accessibility. We're starting to tackle some
> > > of the harder issues now -- social justice, legalities, advantages/
> > > disadvantages of a symbol system for rating accessibility (long
> > > talked about in the SIG but has it's trickiness in how the check/
> > > balance system will work like the ESRP with their full time
> > > employees), the complexities of guidelines, the academic puzzle of
> > > how to frame what we do and say in a larger design paradigm, and
> > > much, much more.
> > >
> > > Third, I want to take the time to encourage everyone to get
> > > refreshed and ready for a new and exciting year with the SIG -- "the
> > > book" will happen this year (a general announcement will follow as
> > > soon as legal stuff is worked out), we have conferences to look
> > > forward to, work with the Electronic Consumers Association (the ECA
> > > that has been formed to help fight the legal shutting down of games
> > > -- one that we can use to help show a potential positive side that
> > > the industry could/should be contributing to as much as they can
> > > because it HELPS put the industry in a positive light), a grant to
> > > work through, fund raising, a new website...so much more! This is
> > > exciting!
> > >
> > > So I will be reachable while I'm gone but obviously things will slow
> > > down from my end for the next week or so, as I imagine will be the
> > > case for others as well. Relax and enjoy time with family. And, as I
> > > have said before, hope for peace in the new year. The world, more
> > > than ever, needs some healing.
> > >
> > > Michelle
> > > Chairperson, IGDA Game Accessibility SIG
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > games_access mailing list
> > > games_access at igda.org
> > > http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > games_access mailing list
> > games_access at igda.org
> > http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>


-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eelke Folmer                           Assistant Professor
Department of CS&E/171
University of Nevada              Reno, Nevada 89557
Game interaction design        www.helpyouplay.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------------


From eelke.folmer at gmail.com  Fri Dec 21 21:09:59 2007
From: eelke.folmer at gmail.com (Eelke Folmer)
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 18:09:59 -0800
Subject: [games_access] Happy Seasons Greetings/New Years/Etc!
In-Reply-To: <836db6300712211805h4b7e61a8s12910a6ae60f854c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <836db6300712201315i3f11339v6b4a6c18cfb5911c@mail.gmail.com>
	<007101c8434f$300069f0$6402a8c0@Delletje>
	<p06230922c390b12f31e3@130.126.29.18>
	<0E42272C-C708-410C-A4FD-637A0A96E82E@pininteractive.com>
	<3dd2060e0712211048p4684fd58k62c1124e5e17027f@mail.gmail.com>
	<836db6300712211805h4b7e61a8s12910a6ae60f854c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <836db6300712211809lc3ca593pb08a93d07e523745@mail.gmail.com>

Jeezzz.... and a game like crayon physics (which is a great game by
the way) is nominated for the main competition as well as the student
competition. What about that??



On 21/12/2007, Eelke Folmer <eelke.folmer at gmail.com> wrote:
> Happy Holidays!
>
> eitan> I hope you didn't do the "Feats of Strength" with  your dad for
> festivus! ;-)
>
> Too bad our IGF submissions (gordon's trigger finger & your game)
> didn't make it to the final round. ;-(  hopefully more luck next year.
>
> Cheers Eelke
>
>
>
>
>
> On 21/12/2007, Eitan Glinert <glinert at mit.edu> wrote:
> > Merry Festivus, everyone!
> > Eitan
> >
> >
> > On Dec 21, 2007 4:56 AM, Thomas Westin <thomas at pininteractive.com> wrote:
> > > Thanks Michelle,
> > >
> > > and Happy <insert  your favorite holiday> to you all from me too!
> > >
> > > Got some flu myself but not too bad, still up and running
> > >
> > > I'll be offline for a week or two now, will rest by doing some
> > > physical work, renovating our bathroom so I'll be busy but it'll be fun
> > >
> > > /thomas
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 21 dec 2007, at 01.22, d. michelle hinn wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi all,
> > > >
> > > > I'm about to head out (tomorrow morning) for about 10 days of travel
> > > > from Champaign, IL to Detroit, MI then to Tampa, Florida (the colder
> > > > norther part, not the 365 days/year warm parts), back to Detroit,
> > > > and then back to exciting Champaign-Urbana before the new year hits.
> > > > I won't google up a "how this translates to European travel given
> > > > differences in vehicle speeds, etc" because, well, even I'm not that
> > > > nutty. :) Unfortunately I got hit by some death flu (and I even got
> > > > the flu shot!) for the past 48 hours or so and am just now getting
> > > > it shaken off a little bit!) -- so I have a lot to catch up on as
> > > > the brain fog clears.
> > > >
> > > > First, I wanted to wish everyone on the list a happy new year (at
> > > > least according to most Western calendars)! It's been a rough road
> > > > at times for us this year but we made it through, important lessons
> > > > were learned, and we've experienced lots of growth. I know for a few
> > > > of us it's been a tough year in our personal lives as well and I can
> > > > appreciate that we are a volunteer group and that life gets tough to
> > > > balance. We do what we can with the time we have to try and make
> > > > change. And I think if you add up everything that's happened in the
> > > > last year, we've gotten a lot done. We've learned important lessons
> > > > on approaches not to take, approaches we haven't yet taken, and so
> > > > forth. We have an exciting 2008 ahead of us, no doubt.
> > > >
> > > > Second, I want to thank everyone for their participation this year!
> > > > There's always more to do but we have to recognize that we are a
> > > > small group (for now!) and feel good about what we've been able to
> > > > do in the world of game accessibility. We're starting to tackle some
> > > > of the harder issues now -- social justice, legalities, advantages/
> > > > disadvantages of a symbol system for rating accessibility (long
> > > > talked about in the SIG but has it's trickiness in how the check/
> > > > balance system will work like the ESRP with their full time
> > > > employees), the complexities of guidelines, the academic puzzle of
> > > > how to frame what we do and say in a larger design paradigm, and
> > > > much, much more.
> > > >
> > > > Third, I want to take the time to encourage everyone to get
> > > > refreshed and ready for a new and exciting year with the SIG -- "the
> > > > book" will happen this year (a general announcement will follow as
> > > > soon as legal stuff is worked out), we have conferences to look
> > > > forward to, work with the Electronic Consumers Association (the ECA
> > > > that has been formed to help fight the legal shutting down of games
> > > > -- one that we can use to help show a potential positive side that
> > > > the industry could/should be contributing to as much as they can
> > > > because it HELPS put the industry in a positive light), a grant to
> > > > work through, fund raising, a new website...so much more! This is
> > > > exciting!
> > > >
> > > > So I will be reachable while I'm gone but obviously things will slow
> > > > down from my end for the next week or so, as I imagine will be the
> > > > case for others as well. Relax and enjoy time with family. And, as I
> > > > have said before, hope for peace in the new year. The world, more
> > > > than ever, needs some healing.
> > > >
> > > > Michelle
> > > > Chairperson, IGDA Game Accessibility SIG
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > games_access mailing list
> > > > games_access at igda.org
> > > > http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > games_access mailing list
> > > games_access at igda.org
> > > http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > games_access mailing list
> > games_access at igda.org
> > http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Eelke Folmer                           Assistant Professor
> Department of CS&E/171
> University of Nevada              Reno, Nevada 89557
> Game interaction design        www.helpyouplay.com
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>


-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eelke Folmer                           Assistant Professor
Department of CS&E/171
University of Nevada              Reno, Nevada 89557
Game interaction design        www.helpyouplay.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------------


From ioo at ablegamers.com  Fri Dec 21 22:24:08 2007
From: ioo at ablegamers.com (Ioo)
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 22:24:08 -0500
Subject: [games_access] Russell Williams,
	CEO and Co-founder of Flying Labs Sits with AbleGamers.com
In-Reply-To: <6.1.0.6.2.20071212164849.01debc58@enigami.com>
References: <836db6300712111653m12921df4j39ee9f0c9cf4d97@mail.gmail.com>	<a6673b8d0712111656w2578ad13xa9ffb287c30d1646@mail.gmail.com>	<a6673b8d0712111713tc0d3df3ta8dead525648bcb7@mail.gmail.com>
	<6.1.0.6.2.20071212164849.01debc58@enigami.com>
Message-ID: <476C8358.9050807@ablegamers.com>

Hey All,

Wanted to share with the group that I just posted an interview with 
Russell Williams, CEO and Co-founder of Flying Labs and maker of the 
upcoming MMORPG Pirates of the Burning Seas. It is a good interview and 
I wanted to share it with you all.

http://ablegamers.com/content/view/182/640/

He is very about accessibility issues and so on. Please feel free to 
read it and share it with others.

I want to wish you all a merry everything... blessed be! Happy Yule!

Mark "Ioo" Barlet
AbleGamers.com


From reid at rbkdesign.com  Sat Dec 22 01:15:38 2007
From: reid at rbkdesign.com (Reid Kimball)
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 22:15:38 -0800
Subject: [games_access] Russell Williams,
	CEO and Co-founder of Flying Labs Sits with AbleGamers.com
In-Reply-To: <476C8358.9050807@ablegamers.com>
References: <836db6300712111653m12921df4j39ee9f0c9cf4d97@mail.gmail.com>
	<a6673b8d0712111656w2578ad13xa9ffb287c30d1646@mail.gmail.com>
	<a6673b8d0712111713tc0d3df3ta8dead525648bcb7@mail.gmail.com>
	<6.1.0.6.2.20071212164849.01debc58@enigami.com>
	<476C8358.9050807@ablegamers.com>
Message-ID: <a6673b8d0712212215q75eb2f66x588a91884fa42137@mail.gmail.com>

Another excellent interview and nice honest answers from Russell.
Barrie or Mark, are you sending him info on alternative controllers?

It's great they are providing assistance for those with low vision. I
see more games catering to those with vision issues than hearing and
people I talk with seem to understand that better than hearing.

-Reid

On Dec 21, 2007 7:24 PM, Ioo <ioo at ablegamers.com> wrote:
> Hey All,
>
> Wanted to share with the group that I just posted an interview with
> Russell Williams, CEO and Co-founder of Flying Labs and maker of the
> upcoming MMORPG Pirates of the Burning Seas. It is a good interview and
> I wanted to share it with you all.
>
> http://ablegamers.com/content/view/182/640/
>
> He is very about accessibility issues and so on. Please feel free to
> read it and share it with others.
>
> I want to wish you all a merry everything... blessed be! Happy Yule!
>
> Mark "Ioo" Barlet
> AbleGamers.com
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>


From arthit73 at cablespeed.com  Sat Dec 22 12:35:29 2007
From: arthit73 at cablespeed.com (Robert Florio)
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 12:35:29 -0500
Subject: [games_access] Russell Williams,
	CEO and Co-founder of Flying Labs Sits with AbleGamers.com
In-Reply-To: AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIzE9SwA
References: <836db6300712111653m12921df4j39ee9f0c9cf4d97@mail.gmail.com>	<a6673b8d0712111656w2578ad13xa9ffb287c30d1646@mail.gmail.com>	<a6673b8d0712111713tc0d3df3ta8dead525648bcb7@mail.gmail.com><6.1.0.6.2.20071212164849.01debc58@enigami.com>
	AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIzE9SwA
Message-ID: <010401c844c1$11b80a70$6601a8c0@Inspiron>

That was such an interesting insight into the game world and what developers
are thinking toward game accessibility.  My favorite question and answer is
below that the person said.

"AG: If I took yours keyboard and mouse away, besides tavern trash-talk, how
would you play this game? Could you? 

Russell Williams, Pirates of the burning Sea said, " RW: Actually, I was
just on a demo trip where I wasn't able to use Zoom (mouse wheel) for the
first demo, and I fell apart on that. It turns out I have an unhealthy love
of zooming in on the game! But I'm assuming you're talking about replacing
the keyboard and mouse with other input devices, as they're the only two
inputs on my PC. And to answer that, I don't know, because I don't have a
breadth of knowledge about the various alternatives available."

He says he doesn't "have a breadth of knowledge about the various
alternatives available" and then later on in the interview at the end
Russell Williams says " In that, accessibility issues don't get as much
attention as we like. But as we move beyond the basic process of launching
the game, we have less and less "on fire!" issues, and more discretionary
ones to address. That's when we have the overhead to really get traction on
accessibility issues."

So to me this is still an indicator that we have a lot of work to do because
I think it's safe to say across-the-board the industry does not consider
accessibility at all as one of those "on fire!"  Issues.  Of course he's
probably talking about the programming code, getting the characters
animated, all of the other stuff.  I know it's disappointing to hear it's
not one of the fire issues, so let's encourage each other this next year
coming up hopefully to do something like get our own web site out there
where we can have interviews and like Russell Williams said at the end "he
really pays attention to the paying customers" if they are saying things for
example that more people want it to be accessible than we've got to show
them.

The article
http://ablegamers.com/index.php/Pirates-of-the-Burning-Sea/Pirates-of-the-Bu
rning-Sea-Comes-to-AbleGamer-s-Shore.html 

Thanks Reid for that article.

Work for the next year.

Robert
www.RobertFlorio.com   


-----Original Message-----
From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
On Behalf Of Ioo
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 10:24 PM
To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
Subject: [games_access] Russell Williams,CEO and Co-founder of Flying Labs
Sits with AbleGamers.com

Hey All,

Wanted to share with the group that I just posted an interview with 
Russell Williams, CEO and Co-founder of Flying Labs and maker of the 
upcoming MMORPG Pirates of the Burning Seas. It is a good interview and 
I wanted to share it with you all.

http://ablegamers.com/content/view/182/640/

He is very about accessibility issues and so on. Please feel free to 
read it and share it with others.

I want to wish you all a merry everything... blessed be! Happy Yule!

Mark "Ioo" Barlet
AbleGamers.com
_______________________________________________
games_access mailing list
games_access at igda.org
http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access



From ioo at ablegamers.com  Sat Dec 22 14:11:02 2007
From: ioo at ablegamers.com (Ioo)
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 14:11:02 -0500
Subject: [games_access] Russell Williams,
 CEO and Co-founder of Flying Labs Sits with AbleGamers.com
In-Reply-To: <010401c844c1$11b80a70$6601a8c0@Inspiron>
References: <836db6300712111653m12921df4j39ee9f0c9cf4d97@mail.gmail.com>	<a6673b8d0712111656w2578ad13xa9ffb287c30d1646@mail.gmail.com>	<a6673b8d0712111713tc0d3df3ta8dead525648bcb7@mail.gmail.com><6.1.0.6.2.20071212164849.01debc58@enigami.com>	AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIzE9SwA
	<010401c844c1$11b80a70$6601a8c0@Inspiron>
Message-ID: <476D6146.7030806@ablegamers.com>

Hey why does Reid get thanked for the story?   :(

No seriously, I think you are right on Robert that accessibility is not 
an "On Fire" issue. I can not say I blame him for saying that, the fact 
is they are tiring to get a game out the door and make money... I can 
fault no one for that. What this does show me (and I hope you as well) 
is that we need to have some guidlines out there so that the developers 
can write accessibility into games from the start. I am only one man, 
and I get interviews for the site because I have end users who want to 
play these games, by the time I get to them the project is far off the 
ground, and if it was not built in from the start then it will always 
become an afterthought.

To be fully accessible means that you have to know what that means going 
into the project.. not a year later...

Anyway, I am glad you enjoyed the interview. I have one from a hardware 
CEO coming up, so look for that.

Mark - AbleGamers.com

Here is the link (I am messing with them right now)
http://ablegamers.com/index.php/Disabled-Gamers-News/pobs-second.html


Robert Florio wrote:
> That was such an interesting insight into the game world and what developers
> are thinking toward game accessibility.  My favorite question and answer is
> below that the person said.
>
> "AG: If I took yours keyboard and mouse away, besides tavern trash-talk, how
> would you play this game? Could you? 
>
> Russell Williams, Pirates of the burning Sea said, " RW: Actually, I was
> just on a demo trip where I wasn't able to use Zoom (mouse wheel) for the
> first demo, and I fell apart on that. It turns out I have an unhealthy love
> of zooming in on the game! But I'm assuming you're talking about replacing
> the keyboard and mouse with other input devices, as they're the only two
> inputs on my PC. And to answer that, I don't know, because I don't have a
> breadth of knowledge about the various alternatives available."
>
> He says he doesn't "have a breadth of knowledge about the various
> alternatives available" and then later on in the interview at the end
> Russell Williams says " In that, accessibility issues don't get as much
> attention as we like. But as we move beyond the basic process of launching
> the game, we have less and less "on fire!" issues, and more discretionary
> ones to address. That's when we have the overhead to really get traction on
> accessibility issues."
>
> So to me this is still an indicator that we have a lot of work to do because
> I think it's safe to say across-the-board the industry does not consider
> accessibility at all as one of those "on fire!"  Issues.  Of course he's
> probably talking about the programming code, getting the characters
> animated, all of the other stuff.  I know it's disappointing to hear it's
> not one of the fire issues, so let's encourage each other this next year
> coming up hopefully to do something like get our own web site out there
> where we can have interviews and like Russell Williams said at the end "he
> really pays attention to the paying customers" if they are saying things for
> example that more people want it to be accessible than we've got to show
> them.
>
> The article
> http://ablegamers.com/index.php/Pirates-of-the-Burning-Sea/Pirates-of-the-Bu
> rning-Sea-Comes-to-AbleGamer-s-Shore.html 
>
> Thanks Reid for that article.
>
> Work for the next year.
>
> Robert
> www.RobertFlorio.com   
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
> On Behalf Of Ioo
> Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 10:24 PM
> To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
> Subject: [games_access] Russell Williams,CEO and Co-founder of Flying Labs
> Sits with AbleGamers.com
>
> Hey All,
>
> Wanted to share with the group that I just posted an interview with 
> Russell Williams, CEO and Co-founder of Flying Labs and maker of the 
> upcoming MMORPG Pirates of the Burning Seas. It is a good interview and 
> I wanted to share it with you all.
>
> http://ablegamers.com/content/view/182/640/
>
> He is very about accessibility issues and so on. Please feel free to 
> read it and share it with others.
>
> I want to wish you all a merry everything... blessed be! Happy Yule!
>
> Mark "Ioo" Barlet
> AbleGamers.com
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>   


From reid at rbkdesign.com  Sat Dec 22 15:04:28 2007
From: reid at rbkdesign.com (Reid Kimball)
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 12:04:28 -0800
Subject: [games_access] Russell Williams,
	CEO and Co-founder of Flying Labs Sits with AbleGamers.com
In-Reply-To: <476D6146.7030806@ablegamers.com>
References: <836db6300712111653m12921df4j39ee9f0c9cf4d97@mail.gmail.com>
	<a6673b8d0712111656w2578ad13xa9ffb287c30d1646@mail.gmail.com>
	<a6673b8d0712111713tc0d3df3ta8dead525648bcb7@mail.gmail.com>
	<6.1.0.6.2.20071212164849.01debc58@enigami.com>
	<010401c844c1$11b80a70$6601a8c0@Inspiron>
	<476D6146.7030806@ablegamers.com>
Message-ID: <a6673b8d0712221204y4ba989a6pc4f66a8ad65d5b0f@mail.gmail.com>

I agree with Robert and Mark. My goal for 2008 is to contact
developers earlier in their development process to make them aware of
issues early. It won't be easy, because when I've done this before,
developers tend to think they can put it off into the polish phase
(final months) and this unfortunately is not the right mind set. It
was clear to me when working on Doom3[CC] that the UI design wasn't
going to work as it was. To add closed captioning, we had to modify
the UI. If closed captioning was thought of from the beginning, the UI
could have been designed to incorporate it. Adding CC at the end is
not easy or cost effective to do in the final months of development.

-Reid

PS: Yes Mark is the one that did the interview, not me!

On Dec 22, 2007 11:11 AM, Ioo <ioo at ablegamers.com> wrote:
> Hey why does Reid get thanked for the story?   :(
>
> No seriously, I think you are right on Robert that accessibility is not
> an "On Fire" issue. I can not say I blame him for saying that, the fact
> is they are tiring to get a game out the door and make money... I can
> fault no one for that. What this does show me (and I hope you as well)
> is that we need to have some guidlines out there so that the developers
> can write accessibility into games from the start. I am only one man,
> and I get interviews for the site because I have end users who want to
> play these games, by the time I get to them the project is far off the
> ground, and if it was not built in from the start then it will always
> become an afterthought.
>
> To be fully accessible means that you have to know what that means going
> into the project.. not a year later...
>
> Anyway, I am glad you enjoyed the interview. I have one from a hardware
> CEO coming up, so look for that.
>
> Mark - AbleGamers.com
>
> Here is the link (I am messing with them right now)
> http://ablegamers.com/index.php/Disabled-Gamers-News/pobs-second.html
>
>
>
> Robert Florio wrote:
> > That was such an interesting insight into the game world and what developers
> > are thinking toward game accessibility.  My favorite question and answer is
> > below that the person said.
> >
> > "AG: If I took yours keyboard and mouse away, besides tavern trash-talk, how
> > would you play this game? Could you?
> >
> > Russell Williams, Pirates of the burning Sea said, " RW: Actually, I was
> > just on a demo trip where I wasn't able to use Zoom (mouse wheel) for the
> > first demo, and I fell apart on that. It turns out I have an unhealthy love
> > of zooming in on the game! But I'm assuming you're talking about replacing
> > the keyboard and mouse with other input devices, as they're the only two
> > inputs on my PC. And to answer that, I don't know, because I don't have a
> > breadth of knowledge about the various alternatives available."
> >
> > He says he doesn't "have a breadth of knowledge about the various
> > alternatives available" and then later on in the interview at the end
> > Russell Williams says " In that, accessibility issues don't get as much
> > attention as we like. But as we move beyond the basic process of launching
> > the game, we have less and less "on fire!" issues, and more discretionary
> > ones to address. That's when we have the overhead to really get traction on
> > accessibility issues."
> >
> > So to me this is still an indicator that we have a lot of work to do because
> > I think it's safe to say across-the-board the industry does not consider
> > accessibility at all as one of those "on fire!"  Issues.  Of course he's
> > probably talking about the programming code, getting the characters
> > animated, all of the other stuff.  I know it's disappointing to hear it's
> > not one of the fire issues, so let's encourage each other this next year
> > coming up hopefully to do something like get our own web site out there
> > where we can have interviews and like Russell Williams said at the end "he
> > really pays attention to the paying customers" if they are saying things for
> > example that more people want it to be accessible than we've got to show
> > them.
> >
> > The article
> > http://ablegamers.com/index.php/Pirates-of-the-Burning-Sea/Pirates-of-the-Bu
> > rning-Sea-Comes-to-AbleGamer-s-Shore.html
> >
> > Thanks Reid for that article.
> >
> > Work for the next year.
> >
> > Robert
> > www.RobertFlorio.com
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
> > On Behalf Of Ioo
> > Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 10:24 PM
> > To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
> > Subject: [games_access] Russell Williams,CEO and Co-founder of Flying Labs
> > Sits with AbleGamers.com
> >
> > Hey All,
> >
> > Wanted to share with the group that I just posted an interview with
> > Russell Williams, CEO and Co-founder of Flying Labs and maker of the
> > upcoming MMORPG Pirates of the Burning Seas. It is a good interview and
> > I wanted to share it with you all.
> >
> > http://ablegamers.com/content/view/182/640/
> >
> > He is very about accessibility issues and so on. Please feel free to
> > read it and share it with others.
> >
> > I want to wish you all a merry everything... blessed be! Happy Yule!
> >
> > Mark "Ioo" Barlet
> > AbleGamers.com
> > _______________________________________________
> > games_access mailing list
> > games_access at igda.org
> > http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > games_access mailing list
> > games_access at igda.org
> > http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>


From arthit73 at cablespeed.com  Sat Dec 22 16:08:13 2007
From: arthit73 at cablespeed.com (Robert Florio)
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 16:08:13 -0500
Subject: [games_access] Russell Williams,
	CEO and Co-founder of Flying Labs Sits with AbleGamers.com
In-Reply-To: AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIzE+SwA
References: <836db6300712111653m12921df4j39ee9f0c9cf4d97@mail.gmail.com>	<a6673b8d0712111656w2578ad13xa9ffb287c30d1646@mail.gmail.com>	<a6673b8d0712111713tc0d3df3ta8dead525648bcb7@mail.gmail.com><6.1.0.6.2.20071212164849.01debc58@enigami.com>	AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIzE9SwA<010401c844c1$11b80a70$6601a8c0@Inspiron>
	AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIzE+SwA
Message-ID: <014c01c844de$c3e1c200$6601a8c0@Inspiron>

lol.  Thanks Mark.  I didn't know that you were in this list that's really
cool.  Great job interview.  You're definitely right there needs to be
guidelines I really think this book we can write coming-out hopefully if we
get to work on it correctly from our group will give people what they need.

Robert
www.RobertFlorio.com  

-----Original Message-----
From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
On Behalf Of Ioo
Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 2:11 PM
To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
Subject: Re: [games_access] Russell Williams, CEO and Co-founder of Flying
Labs Sits with AbleGamers.com

Hey why does Reid get thanked for the story?   :(

No seriously, I think you are right on Robert that accessibility is not 
an "On Fire" issue. I can not say I blame him for saying that, the fact 
is they are tiring to get a game out the door and make money... I can 
fault no one for that. What this does show me (and I hope you as well) 
is that we need to have some guidlines out there so that the developers 
can write accessibility into games from the start. I am only one man, 
and I get interviews for the site because I have end users who want to 
play these games, by the time I get to them the project is far off the 
ground, and if it was not built in from the start then it will always 
become an afterthought.

To be fully accessible means that you have to know what that means going 
into the project.. not a year later...

Anyway, I am glad you enjoyed the interview. I have one from a hardware 
CEO coming up, so look for that.

Mark - AbleGamers.com

Here is the link (I am messing with them right now)
http://ablegamers.com/index.php/Disabled-Gamers-News/pobs-second.html


Robert Florio wrote:
> That was such an interesting insight into the game world and what
developers
> are thinking toward game accessibility.  My favorite question and answer
is
> below that the person said.
>
> "AG: If I took yours keyboard and mouse away, besides tavern trash-talk,
how
> would you play this game? Could you? 
>
> Russell Williams, Pirates of the burning Sea said, " RW: Actually, I was
> just on a demo trip where I wasn't able to use Zoom (mouse wheel) for the
> first demo, and I fell apart on that. It turns out I have an unhealthy
love
> of zooming in on the game! But I'm assuming you're talking about replacing
> the keyboard and mouse with other input devices, as they're the only two
> inputs on my PC. And to answer that, I don't know, because I don't have a
> breadth of knowledge about the various alternatives available."
>
> He says he doesn't "have a breadth of knowledge about the various
> alternatives available" and then later on in the interview at the end
> Russell Williams says " In that, accessibility issues don't get as much
> attention as we like. But as we move beyond the basic process of launching
> the game, we have less and less "on fire!" issues, and more discretionary
> ones to address. That's when we have the overhead to really get traction
on
> accessibility issues."
>
> So to me this is still an indicator that we have a lot of work to do
because
> I think it's safe to say across-the-board the industry does not consider
> accessibility at all as one of those "on fire!"  Issues.  Of course he's
> probably talking about the programming code, getting the characters
> animated, all of the other stuff.  I know it's disappointing to hear it's
> not one of the fire issues, so let's encourage each other this next year
> coming up hopefully to do something like get our own web site out there
> where we can have interviews and like Russell Williams said at the end "he
> really pays attention to the paying customers" if they are saying things
for
> example that more people want it to be accessible than we've got to show
> them.
>
> The article
>
http://ablegamers.com/index.php/Pirates-of-the-Burning-Sea/Pirates-of-the-Bu
> rning-Sea-Comes-to-AbleGamer-s-Shore.html 
>
> Thanks Reid for that article.
>
> Work for the next year.
>
> Robert
> www.RobertFlorio.com   
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
> On Behalf Of Ioo
> Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 10:24 PM
> To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
> Subject: [games_access] Russell Williams,CEO and Co-founder of Flying Labs
> Sits with AbleGamers.com
>
> Hey All,
>
> Wanted to share with the group that I just posted an interview with 
> Russell Williams, CEO and Co-founder of Flying Labs and maker of the 
> upcoming MMORPG Pirates of the Burning Seas. It is a good interview and 
> I wanted to share it with you all.
>
> http://ablegamers.com/content/view/182/640/
>
> He is very about accessibility issues and so on. Please feel free to 
> read it and share it with others.
>
> I want to wish you all a merry everything... blessed be! Happy Yule!
>
> Mark "Ioo" Barlet
> AbleGamers.com
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>   
_______________________________________________
games_access mailing list
games_access at igda.org
http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access



From arthit73 at cablespeed.com  Sat Dec 22 16:09:33 2007
From: arthit73 at cablespeed.com (Robert Florio)
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 16:09:33 -0500
Subject: [games_access] Russell Williams,
	CEO and Co-founder of Flying Labs Sits with AbleGamers.com
In-Reply-To: AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIzk+SwA
References: <836db6300712111653m12921df4j39ee9f0c9cf4d97@mail.gmail.com><a6673b8d0712111656w2578ad13xa9ffb287c30d1646@mail.gmail.com><a6673b8d0712111713tc0d3df3ta8dead525648bcb7@mail.gmail.com><6.1.0.6.2.20071212164849.01debc58@enigami.com><010401c844c1$11b80a70$6601a8c0@Inspiron><476D6146.7030806@ablegamers.com>
	AAAAADBf8GSYa4xDlD4sBa5lcIzk+SwA
Message-ID: <014d01c844df$08177550$6601a8c0@Inspiron>

I know, I was just thinking you for posting Reid so I can read it.  It is a
good one thanks for that mark.  Yes definitely the early stages.

Robert

-----Original Message-----
From: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
On Behalf Of Reid Kimball
Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 3:04 PM
To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
Subject: Re: [games_access] Russell Williams,CEO and Co-founder of Flying
Labs Sits with AbleGamers.com

I agree with Robert and Mark. My goal for 2008 is to contact
developers earlier in their development process to make them aware of
issues early. It won't be easy, because when I've done this before,
developers tend to think they can put it off into the polish phase
(final months) and this unfortunately is not the right mind set. It
was clear to me when working on Doom3[CC] that the UI design wasn't
going to work as it was. To add closed captioning, we had to modify
the UI. If closed captioning was thought of from the beginning, the UI
could have been designed to incorporate it. Adding CC at the end is
not easy or cost effective to do in the final months of development.

-Reid

PS: Yes Mark is the one that did the interview, not me!

On Dec 22, 2007 11:11 AM, Ioo <ioo at ablegamers.com> wrote:
> Hey why does Reid get thanked for the story?   :(
>
> No seriously, I think you are right on Robert that accessibility is not
> an "On Fire" issue. I can not say I blame him for saying that, the fact
> is they are tiring to get a game out the door and make money... I can
> fault no one for that. What this does show me (and I hope you as well)
> is that we need to have some guidlines out there so that the developers
> can write accessibility into games from the start. I am only one man,
> and I get interviews for the site because I have end users who want to
> play these games, by the time I get to them the project is far off the
> ground, and if it was not built in from the start then it will always
> become an afterthought.
>
> To be fully accessible means that you have to know what that means going
> into the project.. not a year later...
>
> Anyway, I am glad you enjoyed the interview. I have one from a hardware
> CEO coming up, so look for that.
>
> Mark - AbleGamers.com
>
> Here is the link (I am messing with them right now)
> http://ablegamers.com/index.php/Disabled-Gamers-News/pobs-second.html
>
>
>
> Robert Florio wrote:
> > That was such an interesting insight into the game world and what
developers
> > are thinking toward game accessibility.  My favorite question and answer
is
> > below that the person said.
> >
> > "AG: If I took yours keyboard and mouse away, besides tavern trash-talk,
how
> > would you play this game? Could you?
> >
> > Russell Williams, Pirates of the burning Sea said, " RW: Actually, I was
> > just on a demo trip where I wasn't able to use Zoom (mouse wheel) for
the
> > first demo, and I fell apart on that. It turns out I have an unhealthy
love
> > of zooming in on the game! But I'm assuming you're talking about
replacing
> > the keyboard and mouse with other input devices, as they're the only two
> > inputs on my PC. And to answer that, I don't know, because I don't have
a
> > breadth of knowledge about the various alternatives available."
> >
> > He says he doesn't "have a breadth of knowledge about the various
> > alternatives available" and then later on in the interview at the end
> > Russell Williams says " In that, accessibility issues don't get as much
> > attention as we like. But as we move beyond the basic process of
launching
> > the game, we have less and less "on fire!" issues, and more
discretionary
> > ones to address. That's when we have the overhead to really get traction
on
> > accessibility issues."
> >
> > So to me this is still an indicator that we have a lot of work to do
because
> > I think it's safe to say across-the-board the industry does not consider
> > accessibility at all as one of those "on fire!"  Issues.  Of course he's
> > probably talking about the programming code, getting the characters
> > animated, all of the other stuff.  I know it's disappointing to hear
it's
> > not one of the fire issues, so let's encourage each other this next year
> > coming up hopefully to do something like get our own web site out there
> > where we can have interviews and like Russell Williams said at the end
"he
> > really pays attention to the paying customers" if they are saying things
for
> > example that more people want it to be accessible than we've got to show
> > them.
> >
> > The article
> >
http://ablegamers.com/index.php/Pirates-of-the-Burning-Sea/Pirates-of-the-Bu
> > rning-Sea-Comes-to-AbleGamer-s-Shore.html
> >
> > Thanks Reid for that article.
> >
> > Work for the next year.
> >
> > Robert
> > www.RobertFlorio.com
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: games_access-bounces at igda.org
[mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
> > On Behalf Of Ioo
> > Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 10:24 PM
> > To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
> > Subject: [games_access] Russell Williams,CEO and Co-founder of Flying
Labs
> > Sits with AbleGamers.com
> >
> > Hey All,
> >
> > Wanted to share with the group that I just posted an interview with
> > Russell Williams, CEO and Co-founder of Flying Labs and maker of the
> > upcoming MMORPG Pirates of the Burning Seas. It is a good interview and
> > I wanted to share it with you all.
> >
> > http://ablegamers.com/content/view/182/640/
> >
> > He is very about accessibility issues and so on. Please feel free to
> > read it and share it with others.
> >
> > I want to wish you all a merry everything... blessed be! Happy Yule!
> >
> > Mark "Ioo" Barlet
> > AbleGamers.com
> > _______________________________________________
> > games_access mailing list
> > games_access at igda.org
> > http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > games_access mailing list
> > games_access at igda.org
> > http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
_______________________________________________
games_access mailing list
games_access at igda.org
http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access



From j.chetwynd at btinternet.com  Sun Dec 23 08:11:19 2007
From: j.chetwynd at btinternet.com (=?UTF-8?B?In46Jycg44GC44KK44GM44Go44GG44GU44GW44GE44G+44GX44Gf?= =?UTF-8?B?44CCIg==?=)
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 13:11:19 +0000
Subject: [games_access] input device: isight internal camera
Message-ID: <BB4D3B35-8E5A-4BBE-9478-66E88C05EC5B@btinternet.com>

input device: isight internal camera

wondering if anyone can help?

struggling to find evidence of the mac internal camera as navigation  
device.

this seems such an obvious accessibility plus...
filed a bug with apple but.

cheers

Jonathan Chetwynd
Accessibility Consultant on Media Literacy and the Internet





From thomas at pininteractive.com  Tue Dec 25 16:42:48 2007
From: thomas at pininteractive.com (Thomas Westin)
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 22:42:48 +0100
Subject: [games_access] GA-SIG CD 2008
Message-ID: <8D1E5CAE-E9A9-47F6-8662-44624B0E0ADE@pininteractive.com>

Hello

I'm setting up a FTP account on our blade server with 80 GB storage  
space available

Those of you who want to contribute content to this year's GA-SIG DVD  
at Game Developers Conference 2008, please drop me an e-mail off list  
with "GA-SIG CD" as subject so I easily spot it.

If you know people off list that would like to contribute too, please  
forward this e-mail.

It can be games, videos, papers, code, tools or something else  
relevant for game accessibility.

Please note the time frame; the GDC 08 takes place Feb 18, and before  
that I need to arrange the production of DVDs. I've not decided a  
deadline yet but somewhere by the end of January / early February is a  
realistic guess.

Thanks,

/Thomas

Pin Interactive AB
:: Digital Culture Analysis :: Tools :: Worlds

+46 (0)706 400 402

Time zone: GMT+1 , PST+9



From jbannick at 7128.com  Tue Dec 25 20:28:21 2007
From: jbannick at 7128.com (John Bannick)
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 20:28:21 -0500
Subject: [games_access] Russell Williams,
 CEO and Co-founder of  Flying Labs Sits with AbleGamers.com
In-Reply-To: <476C8358.9050807@ablegamers.com>
References: <836db6300712111653m12921df4j39ee9f0c9cf4d97@mail.gmail.com>
	<a6673b8d0712111656w2578ad13xa9ffb287c30d1646@mail.gmail.com>
	<a6673b8d0712111713tc0d3df3ta8dead525648bcb7@mail.gmail.com>
	<6.1.0.6.2.20071212164849.01debc58@enigami.com>
	<476C8358.9050807@ablegamers.com>
Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.2.20071225202656.08ff4800@enigami.com>


He says they were "applying different filters to simulate color blindness. "
Does anyone know where we can get such filters?
Or information sufficient I could build such filters?
I'd like to add that to our development process.

John Bannick
7-128 Software

At 10:24 PM 12/21/2007, you wrote:
>Hey All,
>
>Wanted to share with the group that I just posted an interview with 
>Russell Williams, CEO and Co-founder of Flying Labs and maker of the 
>upcoming MMORPG Pirates of the Burning Seas. It is a good interview and I 
>wanted to share it with you all.
>
>http://ablegamers.com/content/view/182/640/
>
>He is very about accessibility issues and so on. Please feel free to read 
>it and share it with others.
>
>I want to wish you all a merry everything... blessed be! Happy Yule!
>
>Mark "Ioo" Barlet
>AbleGamers.com
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>
>--
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 
>269.17.6/1192 - Release Date: 12/21/2007 1:17 PM



From richard at audiogames.net  Thu Dec 27 04:28:12 2007
From: richard at audiogames.net (AudioGames.net)
Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 10:28:12 +0100
Subject: [games_access] Russell Williams,
	CEO and Co-founder of  Flying Labs Sits with AbleGamers.com
References: <836db6300712111653m12921df4j39ee9f0c9cf4d97@mail.gmail.com><a6673b8d0712111656w2578ad13xa9ffb287c30d1646@mail.gmail.com><a6673b8d0712111713tc0d3df3ta8dead525648bcb7@mail.gmail.com><6.1.0.6.2.20071212164849.01debc58@enigami.com><476C8358.9050807@ablegamers.com>
	<6.1.0.6.2.20071225202656.08ff4800@enigami.com>
Message-ID: <009401c8486a$cd072570$6402a8c0@Delletje>

Hi John,

(Happy Holidays btw peeps)

Check out http://www.vischeck.com/ . Maybe the people of that website can 
help you further.

Greets,

Richard


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John Bannick" <jbannick at 7128.com>
To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 2:28 AM
Subject: Re: [games_access] Russell Williams, CEO and Co-founder of Flying 
Labs Sits with AbleGamers.com


>
> He says they were "applying different filters to simulate color blindness. 
> "
> Does anyone know where we can get such filters?
> Or information sufficient I could build such filters?
> I'd like to add that to our development process.
>
> John Bannick
> 7-128 Software
>
> At 10:24 PM 12/21/2007, you wrote:
>>Hey All,
>>
>>Wanted to share with the group that I just posted an interview with 
>>Russell Williams, CEO and Co-founder of Flying Labs and maker of the 
>>upcoming MMORPG Pirates of the Burning Seas. It is a good interview and I 
>>wanted to share it with you all.
>>
>>http://ablegamers.com/content/view/182/640/
>>
>>He is very about accessibility issues and so on. Please feel free to read 
>>it and share it with others.
>>
>>I want to wish you all a merry everything... blessed be! Happy Yule!
>>
>>Mark "Ioo" Barlet
>>AbleGamers.com
>>_______________________________________________
>>games_access mailing list
>>games_access at igda.org
>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>
>>
>>--
>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 
>>269.17.6/1192 - Release Date: 12/21/2007 1:17 PM
>
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access 



From jbannick at 7128.com  Thu Dec 27 04:55:41 2007
From: jbannick at 7128.com (John Bannick)
Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 04:55:41 -0500
Subject: [games_access] Russell Williams,
 CEO and Co-founder of   Flying Labs Sits with AbleGamers.com
In-Reply-To: <009401c8486a$cd072570$6402a8c0@Delletje>
References: <836db6300712111653m12921df4j39ee9f0c9cf4d97@mail.gmail.com>
	<a6673b8d0712111656w2578ad13xa9ffb287c30d1646@mail.gmail.com>
	<a6673b8d0712111713tc0d3df3ta8dead525648bcb7@mail.gmail.com>
	<6.1.0.6.2.20071212164849.01debc58@enigami.com>
	<476C8358.9050807@ablegamers.com>
	<6.1.0.6.2.20071225202656.08ff4800@enigami.com>
	<009401c8486a$cd072570$6402a8c0@Delletje>
Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.2.20071227045521.01e49ca0@enigami.com>

Richard,

This looks great!

Thanks,

John

At 04:28 AM 12/27/2007, you wrote:
>Hi John,
>
>(Happy Holidays btw peeps)
>
>Check out http://www.vischeck.com/ . Maybe the people of that website can 
>help you further.
>
>Greets,
>
>Richard
>
>
>----- Original Message ----- From: "John Bannick" <jbannick at 7128.com>
>To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
>Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 2:28 AM
>Subject: Re: [games_access] Russell Williams, CEO and Co-founder of Flying 
>Labs Sits with AbleGamers.com
>
>
>>
>>He says they were "applying different filters to simulate color blindness. "
>>Does anyone know where we can get such filters?
>>Or information sufficient I could build such filters?
>>I'd like to add that to our development process.
>>
>>John Bannick
>>7-128 Software
>>
>>At 10:24 PM 12/21/2007, you wrote:
>>>Hey All,
>>>
>>>Wanted to share with the group that I just posted an interview with 
>>>Russell Williams, CEO and Co-founder of Flying Labs and maker of the 
>>>upcoming MMORPG Pirates of the Burning Seas. It is a good interview and 
>>>I wanted to share it with you all.
>>>
>>>http://ablegamers.com/content/view/182/640/
>>>
>>>He is very about accessibility issues and so on. Please feel free to 
>>>read it and share it with others.
>>>
>>>I want to wish you all a merry everything... blessed be! Happy Yule!
>>>
>>>Mark "Ioo" Barlet
>>>AbleGamers.com
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>games_access mailing list
>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>
>>>
>>>--
>>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 
>>>269.17.6/1192 - Release Date: 12/21/2007 1:17 PM
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>games_access mailing list
>>games_access at igda.org
>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>
>--
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 
>269.17.9/1198 - Release Date: 12/26/2007 5:26 PM



From eelke.folmer at gmail.com  Thu Dec 27 13:50:59 2007
From: eelke.folmer at gmail.com (Eelke Folmer)
Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 10:50:59 -0800
Subject: [games_access] Russell Williams,
	CEO and Co-founder of Flying Labs Sits with AbleGamers.com
In-Reply-To: <6.1.0.6.2.20071225202656.08ff4800@enigami.com>
References: <836db6300712111653m12921df4j39ee9f0c9cf4d97@mail.gmail.com>
	<a6673b8d0712111656w2578ad13xa9ffb287c30d1646@mail.gmail.com>
	<a6673b8d0712111713tc0d3df3ta8dead525648bcb7@mail.gmail.com>
	<6.1.0.6.2.20071212164849.01debc58@enigami.com>
	<476C8358.9050807@ablegamers.com>
	<6.1.0.6.2.20071225202656.08ff4800@enigami.com>
Message-ID: <836db6300712271050n3534cdcamd474782f711cb075@mail.gmail.com>

Hi John,

One of my students developed a small tool for Bally technologies that
can detect colorblind problems in games. Shoot me an email offline if
you want more information.

Cheers Eelke




On 25/12/2007, John Bannick <jbannick at 7128.com> wrote:
>
> He says they were "applying different filters to simulate color blindness. "
> Does anyone know where we can get such filters?
> Or information sufficient I could build such filters?
> I'd like to add that to our development process.
>
> John Bannick
> 7-128 Software
>
> At 10:24 PM 12/21/2007, you wrote:
> >Hey All,
> >
> >Wanted to share with the group that I just posted an interview with
> >Russell Williams, CEO and Co-founder of Flying Labs and maker of the
> >upcoming MMORPG Pirates of the Burning Seas. It is a good interview and I
> >wanted to share it with you all.
> >
> >http://ablegamers.com/content/view/182/640/
> >
> >He is very about accessibility issues and so on. Please feel free to read
> >it and share it with others.
> >
> >I want to wish you all a merry everything... blessed be! Happy Yule!
> >
> >Mark "Ioo" Barlet
> >AbleGamers.com
> >_______________________________________________
> >games_access mailing list
> >games_access at igda.org
> >http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
> >
> >
> >--
> >No virus found in this incoming message.
> >Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database:
> >269.17.6/1192 - Release Date: 12/21/2007 1:17 PM
>
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>


-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eelke Folmer                           Assistant Professor
Department of CS&E/171
University of Nevada              Reno, Nevada 89557
Game interaction design        www.helpyouplay.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------------


From devellison at gmail.com  Fri Dec 28 10:18:03 2007
From: devellison at gmail.com (Michael Ellison)
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 09:18:03 -0600
Subject: [games_access] Russell Williams,
	CEO and Co-founder of Flying Labs Sits with AbleGamers.com
In-Reply-To: <6.1.0.6.2.20071225202656.08ff4800@enigami.com>
References: <836db6300712111653m12921df4j39ee9f0c9cf4d97@mail.gmail.com>
	<a6673b8d0712111656w2578ad13xa9ffb287c30d1646@mail.gmail.com>
	<a6673b8d0712111713tc0d3df3ta8dead525648bcb7@mail.gmail.com>
	<6.1.0.6.2.20071212164849.01debc58@enigami.com>
	<476C8358.9050807@ablegamers.com>
	<6.1.0.6.2.20071225202656.08ff4800@enigami.com>
Message-ID: <f2235baa0712280718k6b7018a3lc163e0ce7bc4f7e8@mail.gmail.com>

Greetings John,

On Dec 25, 2007 7:28 PM, John Bannick <jbannick at 7128.com> wrote:
> He says they were "applying different filters to simulate color blindness. "
> Does anyone know where we can get such filters?
> Or information sufficient I could build such filters?
> I'd like to add that to our development process.

I wrote a little toy I use to check my interfaces for such a while
back. It's at http://www.codevis.com/CodeBlind_Setup.exe, with some
documentation available at http://www.codevis.com/codeblind.
Apologies in advance for the interface - I wrote it as part of an
early test of a skinning library and haven't gone back to make it
particularly usable or aesthetically pleasing.

I've been planning on integrating the core algorithms into a DirectX
pixel shader and a DirectShow filter, but it's been a backburner
project for lack of demand for a while.  If you have any interest in
either, or would have a use for the source code I'm using for the
image processing (it's in C++), shoot me an email and I'll clean it up
for use.

Cheers,
Mike


From barrie.ellis at oneswitch.org.uk  Sat Dec 29 13:35:21 2007
From: barrie.ellis at oneswitch.org.uk (Barrie Ellis)
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2007 18:35:21 -0000
Subject: [games_access] Electronic Gaming Monthly Brazil - Accessible Gaming
	Article
Message-ID: <155001c84a49$9355c940$0202a8c0@oneswitch>

Nice four page spread on accessible gaming in issue 66 of Electronic Gaming 
Monthly Brazil, Quite lengthy so grab a cup of tea first...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/22249878 at N04/sets/72157603568960083/

http://gameaccessibility.blogspot.com/2007/12/electronic-gaming-monthly-brazil.html

Barrie
www.OneSwitch.org.uk 





From richard at audiogames.net  Sat Dec 29 15:17:34 2007
From: richard at audiogames.net (AudioGames.net)
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2007 21:17:34 +0100
Subject: [games_access] Electronic Gaming Monthly Brazil - Accessible
	GamingArticle
References: <155001c84a49$9355c940$0202a8c0@oneswitch>
Message-ID: <000601c84a57$d9b224c0$6402a8c0@Delletje>

... and your Portuguese dictionary :) Anyone care to translate? Looking at 
the pictures, is this story mostly on the accessibility of controllers (or 
accessibility issues with controlling games)?





----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Barrie Ellis" <barrie.ellis at oneswitch.org.uk>
To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2007 7:35 PM
Subject: [games_access] Electronic Gaming Monthly Brazil - Accessible 
GamingArticle


> Nice four page spread on accessible gaming in issue 66 of Electronic 
> Gaming Monthly Brazil, Quite lengthy so grab a cup of tea first...
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/22249878 at N04/sets/72157603568960083/
>
> http://gameaccessibility.blogspot.com/2007/12/electronic-gaming-monthly-brazil.html
>
> Barrie
> www.OneSwitch.org.uk
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access 



From richard at audiogames.net  Sat Dec 29 15:19:53 2007
From: richard at audiogames.net (AudioGames.net)
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2007 21:19:53 +0100
Subject: [games_access] Electronic Gaming Monthly Brazil -
	AccessibleGamingArticle
References: <155001c84a49$9355c940$0202a8c0@oneswitch>
	<000601c84a57$d9b224c0$6402a8c0@Delletje>
Message-ID: <000601c84a58$2c8bdc40$6402a8c0@Delletje>

Ah... sorry... forget that... hadn't checked out the other link ;)


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "AudioGames.net" <richard at audiogames.net>
To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2007 9:17 PM
Subject: Re: [games_access] Electronic Gaming Monthly Brazil - 
AccessibleGamingArticle


> ... and your Portuguese dictionary :) Anyone care to translate? Looking at 
> the pictures, is this story mostly on the accessibility of controllers (or 
> accessibility issues with controlling games)?
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Barrie Ellis" <barrie.ellis at oneswitch.org.uk>
> To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
> Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2007 7:35 PM
> Subject: [games_access] Electronic Gaming Monthly Brazil - Accessible 
> GamingArticle
>
>
>> Nice four page spread on accessible gaming in issue 66 of Electronic 
>> Gaming Monthly Brazil, Quite lengthy so grab a cup of tea first...
>>
>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/22249878 at N04/sets/72157603568960083/
>>
>> http://gameaccessibility.blogspot.com/2007/12/electronic-gaming-monthly-brazil.html
>>
>> Barrie
>> www.OneSwitch.org.uk
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> games_access mailing list
>> games_access at igda.org
>> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access 



From jbannick at 7128.com  Sun Dec 30 17:05:59 2007
From: jbannick at 7128.com (John Bannick)
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2007 17:05:59 -0500
Subject: [games_access] Catching Up on Gaming
Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.2.20071230165443.01cbec30@enigami.com>

Hi Cara,

We've been busy at 7-128 Software, too.

We released our Top 25 Web Sites for Gamers who are Blind this October.
Got a lot of help from folks here on that.

The surprising thing is how much has changed just in 3 months.
The Code Factory in Spain stopped shipping accessible games.
Mark Barlet's AbleGamers.com site expanded into a real good source of 
current gaming information.
Richard left the Game Accessibility Forum and that's kind of drifting now.
Dark started moderating AudioGames.com.

And a bunch of folks here have released, are releasing, or are pushing to 
release new games.
(We got one new one out, Synonyms and Antonyms.)

Oh, and the latest issue of Audyssey is dynamite!

It's not dull.

John Bannick
7-128 Software



From jbannick at 7128.com  Sun Dec 30 17:20:27 2007
From: jbannick at 7128.com (John Bannick)
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2007 17:20:27 -0500
Subject: [games_access] Moderator Appreciation
Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.2.20071230171145.01e41e48@enigami.com>

Che is absolutely right.

My crew and I are out on a bunch of forums every day.

That this forum is a clear "Manifestation of Excellence" is due to a lot of 
diplomacy, hard work, and good judgement on the part of the folks who run it.

John Bannick
CTO
7-128 Software



From richard at audiogames.net  Sun Dec 30 18:37:54 2007
From: richard at audiogames.net (AudioGames.net)
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 00:37:54 +0100
Subject: [games_access] Catching Up on Gaming
References: <6.1.0.6.2.20071230165443.01cbec30@enigami.com>
Message-ID: <001801c84b3d$02a53990$6402a8c0@Delletje>

Hi,

*quote*
Richard left the Game Accessibility Forum and that's kind of drifting now.
*quote end*

Well... more like: Richard AND Sander have left the Accessibility Foundation 
(and it's projects including Audio Game Maker, Game Accessibility and 
Interactive Audio Environment Doorn) in May of 2007, so well over half a 
year already ;)

*quote*
Dark started moderating AudioGames.com.
*quote end*

It's AudioGames.net ;) and it's not only Dark who is able to post news items 
to the website, several others as well. But it is only the posting of news 
items, moderation of the website is still with me and Sander. We do plan to 
update the website with community functionality, so that everyone can 
add/edit the database. Just not yet.... PhD time ;)

Greets,

Richard




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John Bannick" <jbannick at 7128.com>
To: <games_access at igda.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2007 11:05 PM
Subject: [games_access] Catching Up on Gaming


> Hi Cara,
>
> We've been busy at 7-128 Software, too.
>
> We released our Top 25 Web Sites for Gamers who are Blind this October.
> Got a lot of help from folks here on that.
>
> The surprising thing is how much has changed just in 3 months.
> The Code Factory in Spain stopped shipping accessible games.
> Mark Barlet's AbleGamers.com site expanded into a real good source of 
> current gaming information.
> Richard left the Game Accessibility Forum and that's kind of drifting now.
> Dark started moderating AudioGames.com.
>
> And a bunch of folks here have released, are releasing, or are pushing to 
> release new games.
> (We got one new one out, Synonyms and Antonyms.)
>
> Oh, and the latest issue of Audyssey is dynamite!
>
> It's not dull.
>
> John Bannick
> 7-128 Software
>
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access 



From hinn at uiuc.edu  Sun Dec 30 19:15:54 2007
From: hinn at uiuc.edu (d. michelle hinn)
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2007 18:15:54 -0600
Subject: [games_access] Catching Up on Gaming
In-Reply-To: <001801c84b3d$02a53990$6402a8c0@Delletje>
References: <6.1.0.6.2.20071230165443.01cbec30@enigami.com>
	<001801c84b3d$02a53990$6402a8c0@Delletje>
Message-ID: <p06230903c39de4d4b74a@[130.126.29.37]>

Any update on getting GameAccessibility.com transferred to the SIG?

Michelle

>Hi,
>
>*quote*
>Richard left the Game Accessibility Forum and that's kind of drifting now.
>*quote end*
>
>Well... more like: Richard AND Sander have left the Accessibility 
>Foundation (and it's projects including Audio Game Maker, Game 
>Accessibility and Interactive Audio Environment Doorn) in May of 
>2007, so well over half a year already ;)
>
>*quote*
>Dark started moderating AudioGames.com.
>*quote end*
>
>It's AudioGames.net ;) and it's not only Dark who is able to post 
>news items to the website, several others as well. But it is only 
>the posting of news items, moderation of the website is still with 
>me and Sander. We do plan to update the website with community 
>functionality, so that everyone can add/edit the database. Just not 
>yet.... PhD time ;)
>
>Greets,
>
>Richard
>
>
>
>
>----- Original Message ----- From: "John Bannick" <jbannick at 7128.com>
>To: <games_access at igda.org>
>Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2007 11:05 PM
>Subject: [games_access] Catching Up on Gaming
>
>>Hi Cara,
>>
>>We've been busy at 7-128 Software, too.
>>
>>We released our Top 25 Web Sites for Gamers who are Blind this October.
>>Got a lot of help from folks here on that.
>>
>>The surprising thing is how much has changed just in 3 months.
>>The Code Factory in Spain stopped shipping accessible games.
>>Mark Barlet's AbleGamers.com site expanded into a real good source 
>>of current gaming information.
>>Richard left the Game Accessibility Forum and that's kind of drifting now.
>>Dark started moderating AudioGames.com.
>>
>>And a bunch of folks here have released, are releasing, or are 
>>pushing to release new games.
>>(We got one new one out, Synonyms and Antonyms.)
>>
>>Oh, and the latest issue of Audyssey is dynamite!
>>
>>It's not dull.
>>
>>John Bannick
>>7-128 Software
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>games_access mailing list
>>games_access at igda.org
>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>
>_______________________________________________
>games_access mailing list
>games_access at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access



From hinn at uiuc.edu  Sun Dec 30 19:24:03 2007
From: hinn at uiuc.edu (d. michelle hinn)
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2007 18:24:03 -0600
Subject: [games_access] Fwd: GA-SIG DVD
Message-ID: <p06230904c39de65310f1@[130.126.29.37]>

Forwarded from Barrie -- bounced for some reason. Thomas -- I'll get 
back to the question of DVD production costs shortly.

I'm back in (my) town now so I'll be catching up on the latest plus 
replying to the staggering amount of email in my in box. :)

Michelle

>Hi Thomas,
>
>Hope you had a great Christmas. Please feel free to include anything 
>and everything I've sent before.
>
>All the best and have a great 2008!
>
>Barrie
>www.OneSwitch.org.uk
>
>----- Original Message ----- From: "Thomas Westin" <thomas at pininteractive.com>
>To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
>Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 9:42 PM
>Subject: [games_access] GA-SIG CD 2008
>
>>Hello
>>
>>I'm setting up a FTP account on our blade server with 80 GB storage 
>>space available
>>
>>Those of you who want to contribute content to this year's GA-SIG 
>>DVD  at Game Developers Conference 2008, please drop me an e-mail 
>>off list  with "GA-SIG CD" as subject so I easily spot it.
>>
>>If you know people off list that would like to contribute too, 
>>please forward this e-mail.
>>
>>It can be games, videos, papers, code, tools or something else 
>>relevant for game accessibility.
>>
>>Please note the time frame; the GDC 08 takes place Feb 18, and 
>>before that I need to arrange the production of DVDs. I've not 
>>decided a deadline yet but somewhere by the end of January / early 
>>February is a realistic guess.
>>
>>Thanks,
>>
>>/Thomas
>>
>>Pin Interactive AB
>>:: Digital Culture Analysis :: Tools :: Worlds
>>
>>+46 (0)706 400 402
>>
>>Time zone: GMT+1 , PST+9
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>games_access mailing list
>>games_access at igda.org
>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access



From ioo at ablegamers.com  Mon Dec 31 11:45:36 2007
From: ioo at ablegamers.com (Ioo)
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 11:45:36 -0500
Subject: [games_access] Just a heads up, Giving Away Sandio O2 Gaming Mouse
In-Reply-To: <p06230904c39de65310f1@[130.126.29.37]>
References: <p06230904c39de65310f1@[130.126.29.37]>
Message-ID: <47791CB0.8070309@ablegamers.com>

Hey guys,

  I wanted to let you know, and ask you to pass it along, that I am 
giving away and Sandio O2 Gaming Mouse (retail $79.99 US) on 
AbleGamers.com. Sandio sent it to AG for us to review and we have... *So 
if you want it, please go and enter to win.* I do not get a lot of 
entries so your chances are great.

Here is the link to enter...
http://ablegamers.com/index.php/Enter-to-Win.html

Here is link to the review we did...
http://ablegamers.com/index.php/Peripheral-Reviews/Sandio-3D-O2-Gaming-Mouse.html

Thanks...

Mark Barlet
AbleGamers.com