[games_access] Game Accessibility Law Discussion

Mon Nov 1 20:40:37 EDT 2010

Hi,

sorry for this confusing discussion.
The topic is not easy. Unfortunately there is no summary of all information
we need.
It is like a puzzle and this puzzle is different for each country.

First I thought it is just a paper. That does not matter. Who cares?
But there is much more behind it.

* Persons with disabilities worked also on this Convention. = The convention
is very good! (for them)
* The countries who signed the Convention and the additional protocol are
controlled.
* " this countries have to send in a report.
* Additionally: the organizations can send in a report, tool. (In Germany
they are going do this!)
* Persons with disabilities have to be part of the development of the
national action plan.
* Also the convention is for the state, but the state has to make sure that
companies do this too!
* private people can "file a suit" up to the UN.

Action plan = what a state has to do.

Germany:
I read what people request. And I read what request are going into the
action plan.
But I do not know how the action plan looks like.

The request are very good and they have the right for it.
Unfortunately some request are impossible for games.
We have to inform them what is special about games.

And of course the politician do not know much about games.
And we saw in history that they act, but without knowing what they do. :-(
(Law for youth protection Version 2.0, Germany)
(stop sign for web sites, EU)
(school shootings -> games are bad, worldwide?)

EU:
Of course they are also active to change EU laws too.

So at the moment there are risks like:
* no funds for games, special for serious games (there are some serious
games who can only be made with funds)
* no support for game accessibility
* games have to have subtitles (like films, without additional game related
information)
* game branch have to use the BITV (our national WCAG) (would be very
stupid)
* the BITV will be also for non-state products
* game related school / studies have to learn about the BITV (would also be
very stupid)
* game branch will not ask what they think
* decentral research without exchange of information (we already have)
* other stupid things

We have already (Germany):
Schools are not allowed to buy media without subtitles.
All Kids can go to a regular school.
[it is possible to use the English version of the convention!]

Here are my notes I collected:
* "Not about us without us" -> should also be for games branch
* games cannot be barrier free
* there are exceptions where games do not have to be barrier free
* we need information how to avoid barriers
* game developer and game designer need support! (money and "free?"
consulting)
* we need more time, we can only do it step by step
* game accessibility is much more complex than web or film accessibility
* we need more research
* we cannot use the WCAG! We need our own

The keys are:
* games cannot be barrier free
* We do not have information how to avoid barriers (we cannot use WCAG)

Of course there are also chances:
* Game Accessibility in education
* More research
* Public awareness
But for this chances we have to make lobby work.

The difficulty is, that we are in the middle.
On one side we would like to have more accessible games.
On the other side we do not want to have it forced.
And there are other people active. So we have to be careful
What this people request and what this means for games.

Best regards,
Sandra

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: games_access-bounces at igda.org [mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org] Im
Auftrag von BlazeEagle
Gesendet: Montag, 1. November 2010 01:25
An: games_access at igda.org
Betreff: [games_access] Game Accessibility Law Discussion

Well, I'm against UN enforcement of a game accessibility law mainly because
under a veil of world wide cooperation, the UN seems to want an eventual
single world government. 
Please understand that I'm NOT an isolationist by any means, but There's
just such a wide variety of cultural differences around the world that a
world wide game accessibility law seems not impossible but difficult to
accomplish.

A US sponsored game accessibility law seems the best option. Then, If/When
it's successful in the US, The rest of the world could choose to adopt it.

Since disabilities are so varied, Before a law would truly become a reality,
There needs to be a basic & easily understandable overview of what this law
would accomplish. Some disabled people are so confrontational & pushy that
government might be leery of tackling this issue, So a non-confrontational
overview would be best.

This overview doesn't need to be extensive, Just enough so that the issue is
approachable & understandable. 

Am I making sense?

Aaron

	From: games_access-request at igda.org 
	Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2010 10:00 AM
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	Subject: games_access Digest, Vol 79, Issue 43

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	Today's Topics:

	   1. Re: UN Convention -> national rights? (Michelle Hinn)
	   2. Re: UN Convention -> national rights? (Sandra Uhling)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

	Message: 1
	Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 13:10:43 -0400
	From: Michelle Hinn <hinn at uiuc.edu>
	Subject: Re: [games_access] UN Convention -> national rights?
	To: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
<games_access at igda.org>
	Message-ID: <97DCA7EB-93A9-441A-9044-D9811B5DC6E7 at uiuc.edu>
	Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

	Hey Sandra,

	The UN convention is not something that will necessarily apply to
any country's government. A lot of people on the list who are from the US
have strong arguments against why accessible gaming law should not exist.
I'm not necessarily one of them -- in my opinion an awareness campaign is
never a bad thing.

	To make something into law in the US will need to go WAY beyond
anything the UN decides.  

	Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what you mean by "action" and "law?"
Again, I'm not saying that awareness campaigns are bad -- just that
government enforcement and lawmaking is hard. The UN may have a Convention
but it's not something that will mean that a developer needs to worry about
it. :(

	Michelle

	On Oct 30, 2010, at 11:35 AM, Sandra Uhling wrote:

	> Hi Michelle,
	> 
	> well that is changing now. Thanks to the UN Convention.
	> But what is going to be changed will depend on what we do.
	> 
	> When Germany signed the protocol they thought they do not need to
do
	> anything.
	> Well, when you see the action plans it is the other way round :-)
	> Now it is the time to get this action into real action.
	> 
	> But I do not have enough knowledge to write very good request. :-(
	> Of course we can only ask for laws for accessibility,
	> when we ask also for support for game designers.
	> 
	> Instead of getting only funds when you realize accessibility,
	> the companies should be supported to develop more accessible
games.
	> Video games cannot be barrier free, they can be poor of barriers.
	> That is something important to say to the government.
	> 
	> Best regards,
	> Sandra
	> 
	> 
	> 
	> -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht-----
	> Von: games_access-bounces at igda.org
[mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org] Im
	> Auftrag von Michelle Hinn
	> Gesendet: Samstag, 30. Oktober 2010 15:58
	> An: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
	> Betreff: Re: [games_access] UN Convention -> national rights?
	> 
	> Hey Sandra,
	> 
	> We do have some laws but the trouble is that the ones we have are
more
	> focused on equal opportunity in the workplace for the disabled and
such.
	> Given that years ago a law passed requiring "open captioning" (the
captions
	> are either on the back of a movie theatre chair or on a hand held
device)
	> for people who are deaf that has MAYBE only happened in a handful
of movie
	> theaters in the country, I don't have much hope that a law
requiring
	> videogame accessibility would ever happen. As I said, the movie
industry has
	> to provide the open captioning YET no on enforces it... 
	> 
	> And our political climate right now is getting very hostile
towards
	> videogames, especially as our mid-term elections are in just a few
days --
	> the more conservative that get into office tend to see videogames
ONLY as
	> evil -- they would rather them not exist at all for anyone, not
just the
	> disabled.
	> 
	> Michelle
	> 
	> On Oct 30, 2010, at 8:27 AM, Sandra Uhling wrote:
	> 
	>> Hi,
	>> 
	>> the UN Convention is great. But at the moment it is only for the
states.
	>> The states have to change their national laws that it effects
also
	>> companies.
	>> 
	>> At the moment we have the possibility to give some feedbacks for
the
	> German
	>> action plan.
	>> What kind of law do we need that it effects also companies?
	>> 
	>> E.g. PS3 console and not accepting special controller
	>> 
	>> How should a law look like that the gamer can request an update
because
	> they
	>> are discriminated?
	>> It is also important that this will work, also when there are
mistakes in
	>> the request.
	>> 
	>> Someone an idea?
	>> 
	>> 
	>> 
	>> Best regards,
	>> Sandra
	>> 
	>> 
	>> 
	>> _______________________________________________
	>> games_access mailing list
	>> games_access at igda.org
	>> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
	> 
	> _______________________________________________
	> games_access mailing list
	> games_access at igda.org
	> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
	> 
	> _______________________________________________
	> games_access mailing list
	> games_access at igda.org
	> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access

	------------------------------

	Message: 2
	Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 10:09:35 +0100
	From: "Sandra Uhling" <sandra_uhling at web.de>
	Subject: Re: [games_access] UN Convention -> national rights?
	To: "'IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List'"
	<games_access at igda.org>
	Message-ID: <000301cb78db$5723b540$056b1fc0$@de>
	Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

	Hi,

	the question is how will these new laws look like?
	It is not a question do we get them. We will get them. (Germany)
	And unfortunately the people who make this new laws do not know
anything
	about games.

	The question is how can we avoid risk and how can we use the
chances?
	At the moment the requests of person with disabilities are like:
	* funds only when project realize barrier free things.
	* "Accessiblity" will be part of apprenticeship and study
	* Control for Accessibility
	* ...

	I would say the game developer should worry about the action plan in
	Germany.
	Every country who ratified the UN Convention have to make sure that
also
	companies realize accessibility.

	In think the term "about us not without us" should also be for
people
	who have to realize it. So they should ask all branches for
feedback.

	Here are my notes: 
	* we are not able to realize the request
	** because we do not have information how to avoid barriers
	** games cannot be "barrier free"
	** in some special cases, games do not have to be "barrier free"
	** barriers are often the key of a game, it is not easy to find a
solution
	** to make games more accessible we need more time, information,
support,
	etc.

	So what the game branch need is:
	* a project (Game Accessibility lab) that writes the information for
game
	designer and game developer
	* we need more support, funds to realize more accessible games
	* we need minimal standards, that can be risen step by step, it
cannot be
	"barrier free"
	* the game designer and game developer need support to learn about
it and to
	realize it.

	Best regards,
	Sandra

	-----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht-----
	Von: games_access-bounces at igda.org
[mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org] Im
	Auftrag von Michelle Hinn
	Gesendet: Samstag, 30. Oktober 2010 19:11
	An: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
	Betreff: Re: [games_access] UN Convention -> national rights?

	Hey Sandra,

	The UN convention is not something that will necessarily apply to
any
	country's government. A lot of people on the list who are from the
US have
	strong arguments against why accessible gaming law should not exist.
I'm not
	necessarily one of them -- in my opinion an awareness campaign is
never a
	bad thing.

	To make something into law in the US will need to go WAY beyond
anything the
	UN decides.  

	Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what you mean by "action" and "law?"
Again, I'm
	not saying that awareness campaigns are bad -- just that government
	enforcement and lawmaking is hard. The UN may have a Convention but
it's not
	something that will mean that a developer needs to worry about it.
:(

	Michelle

	On Oct 30, 2010, at 11:35 AM, Sandra Uhling wrote:

	> Hi Michelle,
	> 
	> well that is changing now. Thanks to the UN Convention.
	> But what is going to be changed will depend on what we do.
	> 
	> When Germany signed the protocol they thought they do not need to
do
	> anything.
	> Well, when you see the action plans it is the other way round :-)
	> Now it is the time to get this action into real action.
	> 
	> But I do not have enough knowledge to write very good request. :-(
	> Of course we can only ask for laws for accessibility,
	> when we ask also for support for game designers.
	> 
	> Instead of getting only funds when you realize accessibility,
	> the companies should be supported to develop more accessible
games.
	> Video games cannot be barrier free, they can be poor of barriers.
	> That is something important to say to the government.
	> 
	> Best regards,
	> Sandra
	> 
	> 
	> 
	> -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht-----
	> Von: games_access-bounces at igda.org
[mailto:games_access-bounces at igda.org]
	Im
	> Auftrag von Michelle Hinn
	> Gesendet: Samstag, 30. Oktober 2010 15:58
	> An: IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List
	> Betreff: Re: [games_access] UN Convention -> national rights?
	> 
	> Hey Sandra,
	> 
	> We do have some laws but the trouble is that the ones we have are
more
	> focused on equal opportunity in the workplace for the disabled and
such.
	> Given that years ago a law passed requiring "open captioning" (the
	captions
	> are either on the back of a movie theatre chair or on a hand held
device)
	> for people who are deaf that has MAYBE only happened in a handful
of movie
	> theaters in the country, I don't have much hope that a law
requiring
	> videogame accessibility would ever happen. As I said, the movie
industry
	has
	> to provide the open captioning YET no on enforces it... 
	> 
	> And our political climate right now is getting very hostile
towards
	> videogames, especially as our mid-term elections are in just a few
days --
	> the more conservative that get into office tend to see videogames
ONLY as
	> evil -- they would rather them not exist at all for anyone, not
just the
	> disabled.
	> 
	> Michelle
	> 
	> On Oct 30, 2010, at 8:27 AM, Sandra Uhling wrote:
	> 
	>> Hi,
	>> 
	>> the UN Convention is great. But at the moment it is only for the
states.
	>> The states have to change their national laws that it effects
also
	>> companies.
	>> 
	>> At the moment we have the possibility to give some feedbacks for
the
	> German
	>> action plan.
	>> What kind of law do we need that it effects also companies?
	>> 
	>> E.g. PS3 console and not accepting special controller
	>> 
	>> How should a law look like that the gamer can request an update
because
	> they
	>> are discriminated?
	>> It is also important that this will work, also when there are
mistakes in
	>> the request.
	>> 
	>> Someone an idea?
	>> 
	>> 
	>> 
	>> Best regards,
	>> Sandra
	>> 
	>> 
	>> 
	>> _______________________________________________
	>> games_access mailing list
	>> games_access at igda.org
	>> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
	> 
	> _______________________________________________
	> games_access mailing list
	> games_access at igda.org
	> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
	> 
	> _______________________________________________
	> games_access mailing list
	> games_access at igda.org
	> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access

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