[games_access] suits about discrimination onthebasisofdisability?

Sun Jun 24 17:31:18 EDT 2012

No doubt I wish we could push a magic button and make it all work today,
but some things take time.

On Sun, Jun 24, 2012 at 5:28 PM, Barrie Ellis <oneswitch at gmail.com> wrote:

> **
> Oh, and didn't want to seem rude. Of course there are some great and
> important efforts going on. No doubt about it.
>
>  *From:* Steve Spohn <steve at ablegamers.com>
> *Sent:* Sunday, June 24, 2012 10:07 PM
> *To:* IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List <games_access at igda.org>
> *Cc:* Scott Puckett <puckett101 at yahoo.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [games_access] suits about discrimination
> onthebasisofdisability?
>
> I think AG, SE with individuals like John and Ian pushing we ARE making
> huge change.  Look at the accessibility landscape today versus years ago
> before any of us got into the fight. Heck, I don't think most developers
> even knew accessibility existed before we started this movement. Now they
> know, now developers are starting to care and now is the time where we will
> effect change without the need for legislation.
>
> What we are doing is working.
>
> On Sun, Jun 24, 2012 at 4:28 PM, Barrie Ellis <oneswitch at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> **
>> Perhaps I'm just more impatient, but I believe there will be no huge
>> change without some legislation. One angry and frustrated man, taking that
>> law-suit did cause anger, annoyance and resistance. It also highlighted
>> some important issues to my mind (access rights to public accommodations
>> vs. access rights to virtual public accommodations). I think some useful
>> stuff will come from that eventually. And agreed, lawsuits are irritating.
>> I just wince looking at Apple and Samsung taking constant bites out of each
>> other. Not nice.
>>
>> I'm actually far less dogmatic than I may come across, can see both sides
>> pretty clearly, and have empathy for both. I don't always express it that
>> well, I grant you.
>>
>> All the best,
>>
>> Barrie
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  *From:* John R. Porter <jrporter at uw.edu>
>> *Sent:* Sunday, June 24, 2012 8:58 PM
>>  *To:* IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List <games_access at igda.org>
>> *Subject:* Re: [games_access] suits about discrimination on
>> thebasisofdisability?
>>
>> Barrie,
>>
>> You're absolutely correct that the DDA (and the ADA on this side of the
>> Atlantic) were hugely, and positively, influential developments in the push
>> for accessibility. However, it's necessary to point out that your counter
>> argument has to do with the efficacy of *legislation*, not *judgments*.
>> There's obviously a certain amount of overlap, but they are *not* one
>> and the same.
>>
>> Positive changes are brought about through legislation because they are
>> carefully constructed umbrella statements that are universally applied to
>> myriad different entities at the time of their passing. Some entities might
>> at first be frustrated by their impositions, but no one feels singled out,
>> and more importantly there isn't an air of aggressiveness or negativity to
>> them (or at least not much).
>>
>> Lawsuits, on the other hand, are *never* received well except by those
>> attempting to file them. Sometimes, they can be successful and result in
>> very small amounts of positive change, but that change is incredibly
>> begrudging and accompanied by a great deal of engendered ill will. The
>> resulting attitude of people on the receiving end of a lawsuit tend to be
>> "fine, we'll give you exactly what we are forced to, and absolutely nothing
>> more."
>>
>> Lobbying and open dialogs, while they are of course much slower processes
>> that might not have the flash and publicity of legal action, are generally
>> practices that produce a more amiable relationship between involved parties
>> and results that are most beneficial to everyone involved.
>>
>> Now, there are always exceptions (i.e. the cases of overlap). Legal
>> judgments that set precedent can be incredibly effective as they produce
>> the same type of blanket applicability as legislation. These are few and
>> far between, though, and I wouldn't count on them being very common in this
>> particular field of concern. Because digital entertainment is already such
>> a grey area in the eyes of the law, any judge would be extremely hesitant
>> to drop their gavel in such a way that threatened to cause a ripple effect
>> throughout the entire game industry.
>>
>> -John
>>
>> On Sun, Jun 24, 2012 at 12:14 PM, Barrie Ellis <oneswitch at gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> **
>>> My counter argument to that is pretty simple I think.
>>>
>>> In the UK, until the 1995 Disability Discrimination Act came into place,
>>> very few shops made any effort to provide "reasonably practicable access"
>>> to people such as wheelchair users. They complained that it would be far
>>> too expensive. All these years later, you'd be very hard pressed to find a
>>> shop that doesn't have wheelchair access. The legislation really has made a
>>> positive and lasting difference, and few people would worry about it now,
>>> or think it unfair.
>>>
>>> The reasonably practicable element is where good reason comes in (and
>>> yes with some grey areas). There's no pointing a gun to people's head. If
>>> it wasn't for anti-discrimination laws coming in, you'd probably still have
>>> racially segregated buses in the US, and such like around the world.
>>>
>>> Yes, developers worry, but if everyone has to take into account
>>> accessibility, it's far less of a worry. Altrusism and education only goes
>>> so far. I think we'll have to agree to differ though Steve, from previous
>>> discussions.
>>>
>>> Barrie
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  *From:* Steve Spohn <steve at ablegamers.com>
>>> *Sent:* Sunday, June 24, 2012 8:03 PM
>>>  *To:* IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List <games_access at igda.org>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [games_access] suits about discrimination on the
>>> basisofdisability?
>>>
>>> I would like to hear your counterargument. Being that I have to
>>> personally deal with developers every day in a number of things associated
>>> with AG, I can tell you that many of them had trepidation after that suit
>>> fearing that it may be the first of such lawsuits. Laws and lawsuits are
>>> not the way to bring about change.
>>>
>>> Hell, some people used to say the tactics AbleGamers uses (pointing out
>>> videogame flaws in accessibility, doing reviews, and God for bid, talking
>>> to developers directly) were bullying tactics and repeatedly asked us to
>>> stop in favor of doing studies. Yet trying to force developers,
>>> particularly indies, to make adaptations to their product or face the
>>> consequence of the law, is acceptable?
>>>
>>> I think that is a bit of a double standard.
>>>
>>> Walking down the road of virtually pointing a gun in the face of the
>>> developers saying "add a colorblind mode or else" is a very slippery slope.
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jun 24, 2012 at 2:47 PM, Barrie Ellis <oneswitch at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>> **
>>>> Also would say that it doing more harm than good is up for dispute.
>>>>
>>>>  *From:* Steve Spohn <steve at ablegamers.com>
>>>> *Sent:* Sunday, June 24, 2012 7:21 PM
>>>> *To:* IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List <games_access at igda.org>
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [games_access] suits about discrimination on the basis
>>>> ofdisability?
>>>>
>>>> It was thrown out. Also, many of AG SE & SIG condemned the law suit as
>>>> it is not a good way to bring about change. Many devs clammed up for awhile
>>>> after this law suit. It did more harm than anything.
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Jun 24, 2012 at 10:28 AM, Sandra Uhling <sandra_uhling at web.de>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>> do we have a list with suits about discrimination on the basis of
>>>>> disability?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I have only this:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.gamespot.com/news/visually-impaired-gamer-sues-sony-online-623933
>>>>> 9
>>>>>
>>>>> Does someone have information about the result?
>>>>> Was ist because it was no "public service" or/and error in form?
>>>>>
>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>> Sandra
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> games_access mailing list
>>>>> games_access at igda.org
>>>>> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>>> The main SIG website page is http://igda-gasig.org
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Steve Spohn
>>>> Editor-In-Chief
>>>> The AbleGamers Foundation
>>>> AbleGamers.com <http://www.ablegamers.com/> | AbleGamers.org<http://www.ablegamers.org/>
>>>>  | Facebook <http://www.facebook.com/ablegamers> | Twitter<http://www.twitter.com/ablegamers>
>>>>
>>>>  ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> games_access mailing list
>>>> games_access at igda.org
>>>> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>> The main SIG website page is http://igda-gasig.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> games_access mailing list
>>>> games_access at igda.org
>>>> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>> The main SIG website page is http://igda-gasig.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Steve Spohn
>>> Editor-In-Chief
>>> The AbleGamers Foundation
>>> AbleGamers.com <http://www.ablegamers.com/> | AbleGamers.org<http://www.ablegamers.org/>
>>>  | Facebook <http://www.facebook.com/ablegamers> | Twitter<http://www.twitter.com/ablegamers>
>>>
>>>  ------------------------------
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> games_access mailing list
>>> games_access at igda.org
>>> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>> The main SIG website page is http://igda-gasig.org
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> games_access mailing list
>>> games_access at igda.org
>>> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>> The main SIG website page is http://igda-gasig.org
>>>
>>>
>>  ------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> games_access mailing list
>> games_access at igda.org
>> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>> The main SIG website page is http://igda-gasig.org
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> games_access mailing list
>> games_access at igda.org
>> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>> The main SIG website page is http://igda-gasig.org
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Steve Spohn
> Editor-In-Chief
> The AbleGamers Foundation
> AbleGamers.com <http://www.ablegamers.com/> | AbleGamers.org<http://www.ablegamers.org/>
>  | Facebook <http://www.facebook.com/ablegamers> | Twitter<http://www.twitter.com/ablegamers>
>
>  ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
> The main SIG website page is http://igda-gasig.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> games_access mailing list
> games_access at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
> The main SIG website page is http://igda-gasig.org
>
>

-- 
Steve Spohn
Editor-In-Chief
The AbleGamers Foundation
AbleGamers.com <http://www.ablegamers.com/> |
AbleGamers.org<http://www.ablegamers.org/>
 | Facebook <http://www.facebook.com/ablegamers> |
Twitter<http://www.twitter.com/ablegamers>
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