[Techtoolslist] Help with BK 545 circuit analyzer

Fri Jun 23 13:59:14 EDT 2017

Bill and Brad, thank you for the replies. I'll look into a possible LED
replacement, and failing that maybe just an inverter. I did notice that
without the power wiring connected, any interference from the inverter was
not enough to affect the sampling frequency as badly as when wiring was
connected. The inverter is right below the analog board, so I'm not sure if
that may be of any concern.

After taking apart the LCD module, it doesn't look like retrofitting LEDs
would be that difficult, other than getting them to output a uniform light
level (the CFL portion does have both a reflector and diffuser, so it may
not be an issue). My only concern would be that if I purchased a cheap
inverter, it may also introduce noise? Or is that not likely? Seems like
the retrofit kits available online run a gamut of pricing.

Chris

On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 10:04 AM, Brad Gass <bradg at digitalplains.net> wrote:

> I second the suggestion of an LED backlight conversion.  In lieu of that,
> maybe replace the old inverter (likely low switch frequency) with a new
> universal inverter and relocate it in the immediate area of the LCD to
> minimize the radiated EMI?
>
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/122454826883
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bill Karkula" <wkarkula at comcast.net>
> To: "Technical Tools Mail List" <techtoolslist at flippers.com>
> Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2017 10:58:21 AM
> Subject: Re: [Techtoolslist] Help with BK 545 circuit analyzer
>
> Can you change out to an LED backlight and remove the backlight noise issue
> altogether?  There are a lot of kits out there.  I have done a few swaps
> and
> been very pleased with the results.  Also if the fluorescent backlight is
> old, it's probably dimmed anyway and it or the power circuit will fail.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Bill
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Techtoolslist [mailto:techtoolslist-bounces at flippers.com] On Behalf
> Of
> Andrew Finn via Techtoolslist
> Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2017 10:31 AM
> To: Technical Tools Mail List
> Cc: Andrew Finn
> Subject: Re: [Techtoolslist] Help with BK 545 circuit analyzer
>
> Change any capacitors on the LCD screen inverter, if that doesn't help then
> it is likely to be the tubes in the screen getting old and causing this
> problem just like old fluorescent tubes do!
>
>
>
> > On 22 Jun 2017, at 4:17 am, Chris Rinewalt <chris.rinewalt at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > To update, I have figured out the issue, but ultimately need help with
> > the solution. Instead of going back and forth looking at ICs, I just
> > decided to probe around and see if anything jumped out. I found that
> > when I was near the 1kV LCD screen power wires (red and black pair
> > running from 10 to 5 in this photo with only clear plastic tubing
> > covering them, http://imgur.com/QyV5bBT ) there was a lot of noise. I
> > unplugged the wires and found that I could easily adjust the 60Hz
> > frequency pot through a full range and it was steady at all
> > frequencies. There was still a but of noise, which I am guessing is
> > either coming from either the kV transformer (small daughterboard
> > north of the LCD power wires in the photo) and/or the other two
> > transformers, but the vast majority was due the power wire. So I
> > ordered a combination EMI filter/heat shrink tube and installed it. I
> > didn't shrink the tube as I was worried the heat may damage the nearby
> > LCD, so I just fastened it with a zip tie. I found that there was
> > still an issue with hitting 60Hz exactly; it was fine at 59 Hz then
> > again at 63Hz (whereas previously it would steady at 75Hz or so).
> > Oddly, the EMI tubing indicated it should be grounded, but when I
> > hooked up the ground the frequency shifted down about 4 Hz and the
> > residual noise was much greater and moved through the waveform quicker.
> The specs for the EMI tubing indicate it works at above 10KHz, so I'm glad
> it did anything at all.
> >
> > Does anyone have an idea of what I can use to block the remaining
> > interference? I've read up a bit on mu-metal but that seems only to
> > redirect the field, whereas I need something to cover the wires
> > entirely, shielding all other components inside the unit. Becuase of
> > the tight quarters, there's not really any way I can fit a cage around
> > the analog board (the upper board in the photo which the interference
> > effects most), nor over the 1kV tansformer. I also can't really
> > re-route the LCD power wire as it connects inside the LCD assembly and
> > I'd rather not open it up, plus I'm sure that anywhere I put it inside
> the
> box, there will be noise.
> > Unless something has been modified in this unit, I'm surprised this
> > design made it past the final engineering QC. It is usable as is (and
> > improved a bit with the EMI tubing), but it should have been evident
> > that the noise from the 1kV transformer was bleeing through when
> > setting it up at the factory - unless they also removed the power when
> dialing it in.
> >
> > Chris
> >
> > On Sat, Jun 17, 2017 at 1:50 PM, Chris Rinewalt
> > <chris.rinewalt at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Sorry, this is a bit long....
> >>
> >> I picked up a BK 545 circuit analyzer that appeared to be operating
> >> OK, but did have issues. For instance, upon first power up instead of
> >> displaying a horizontal line, it had an asymmetrical oval shape
> >> distorted along the neg Y-axis. It would display somewhat correct V-I
> >> curves for resistors and diodes, but rather than a single line,
> >> signatures were ovoid an distorted. Oddly, when I turned it on the
> >> next day, this issue was gone, but there was a fair bit of noise along
> the curves.
> >>
> >> I am still searching for a manual for the unit, but I was able to get
> >> the schematic and service sheet from BK, so I tried to calibrate it.
> >> It was a royal pain and some of the procedures I could not get to
> >> work properly to meet the indicated specs (more on this below), but I
> >> have it operating fairly well with two issues that I think are related.
> >>
> >> First, the 60Hz sampling frequency cannot be adjusted to spec. I
> >> followed the procedure and it just bounces all over the place (though
> >> if I engage the low pass filter on the frequency counter it does
> >> settle down). To get the clock, a TLC555 is used, with a fixed 20K
> >> Ohm resistor (R141) and a 50K ohm pot (VR105) between the output and
> threshold (http://imgur.com/2Ez8C6N).
> >> At 60HZ, F1 and F2 are lo, so it's just the resistor, pot and 470 pF
> >> cap
> >> (C105) in circuit with the TLC555. To attain 60HZ, VR105 is adjusted
> >> to attain an approximately 30.72KHz square wave from the output. I
> >> can adjust the pot just fine, but it only outputs an signal of
> >> approximtely 30.2Khz which gives an frequency of about 58.2Hz. Not
> >> bad, but the odd thing is adjusting the pot one way has little to no
> >> effect while adjusting the other way introduces a lot of noise into
> >> Q, which causes a noisy frequency output that bounces around. It's
> >> odd, the signal is fine, turning the pot makes a little difference
> >> for some travel and then at a certain point the square wave gets all
> >> out of whack and the output sampling frequency bounces all over the
> >> place. This happens up to about 48KHz or so (I forget the exact
> >> freq) from Q when the square wave clears up again, causing the output
> >> frequency to be about 75+ Hz, too far off. So, why is it that the Q
> >> output of the 555 is 'clean' for only two small portions of the pots
> >> travel, neither of which align with the required 59-61Hz called for
> >> in the service sheet?
> >>
> >> Then there is a second issue with the 60Hz signal. As I stated above,
> >> I had a heckuva time getting this thing spec'd. I came to realize
> >> that the 4 other pots in other circuit sections used in the
> >> calibration are pretty much dependent on  one another. The noise @
> >> 60Hz was originally so bad I figured it had to be an op-amp (TL084)
> >> or one of the other CMOS ICs. So, I pulled and tested every IC in
> >> that part of the circuit (and then some), along with the 50K pot. All
> >> tested fine, but I replaced them anyway. And still there is noise.
> >> Even if I adjust VR105 to reach a stable 30.2KHz from the 555,
> >> getting ~ 58Hz sampling freq, it still has so much noise that my
> >> counter can't lock onto it without a low pass filter as noted above.
> >> When I switch to one of the other sampling frequencies (400Hz, 1Khz,
> 2KHz) there are no such issues.
> >>
> >> So, here is where I am stuck. I did read somewhere that ceramic disc
> >> caps should not be used in a 555 astable oscillator circuit, but I
> >> have to assume BK engineers knew what they were doing and that is not
> >> an issue. I did test the 22uF electrolytic (C104) on the +5v line and
> >> it is OK, but I don't have anything to test the 470pF disc cap. I do
> >> know it is not shorted. R141 is in spec (19.7K). There is some noise
> >> on the triangle wave on pins 2/6 of the 555, which clear up when any
> >> sampling frequency other than 60Hz is selected. I replaced the LS390
> >> that Q feeds into but still no change. So other than that what else in
> this circuit could be affecting it?
> >>
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