[casual_games] RE: negotiation costs (Jason Akel)

Jason Akel jasakel at hotmail.com
Fri Apr 7 18:55:35 EDT 2006


I have seen and negotiated pretty much every website contract in the space.
They vary widely in how mutual they are with the publisher/developer. I have
yet to see one that didn't need a little redlining. 

Therefore, I definitely don't agree that you should walk away if you find a
few things not in your favor or completely fair - it's guaranteed none are
perfect. It does take a very careful eye and understanding of how each
partner generates its revenue...therefore, a lawyer in of itself doesn't
guarantee you a fair deal. Work with people who know the business and are
willing to review your contracts IN ADDITION TO AN ATTORNEY.

When in doubt on a complex clause, state "...when agreed in advance in
writing by publisher/developer" or similar. That causes the partner to check
with you before embarking on a new model or distribution medium. 

Also, portals are not evil by any means. They don't ask indie developers to
spend years of their lives on a game. They don't have any obligations to you
except those in the contract. And no contracts guarantee long-term promotion
or success. Just because you build it, doesn't mean they'll come. Regarding
payments, if you are clear on payment terms and deductions, I've never see a
medium to large site not pay. Some are slower than others, but the space is
pretty fair in this respect.

I do agree with one thing that was said, focus on building a great game. But
don't put your eggs in one basket when pitching to publishers. Have backup
pitches if they don't like your first game. Maybe they like your work but
not the game, so sell yourselves as much as you are selling the product. 

Better yet, again, have an agent or publisher represent your game to the
portals. Speed to deal and market will be much faster and they will help you
navigate the waters.

Oh, and Adeo is correct on all points.

Best of luck!

Jason Akel
Games Marketing & Business Development
jasakel at hotmail.com | Email & MSN IM


-----Original Message-----
From: casual_games-bounces at igda.org [mailto:casual_games-bounces at igda.org]
On Behalf Of casual_games-request at igda.org
Sent: Friday, April 07, 2006 2:05 PM
To: casual_games at igda.org
Subject: Casual_Games Digest, Vol 11, Issue 4

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Today's Topics:

   1. RE: negotiation costs (Adeo Ressi)
   2. Re: RE: negotiation costs (Lennard Feddersen)
   3. RE: RE: negotiation costs (Christopher Natsuume)
   4. Standard Casual Game Contract (Christopher Natsuume)
   5. Re: RE: negotiation costs (Marty Plumbo)
   6. RE: RE: negotiation costs (Eric Lamendola)
   7. Somebody say Lawyer? (Thomas H. Buscaglia)
   8. Re: RE: negotiation costs (Lennard Feddersen)
   9. Re: RE: negotiation costs (Marty Plumbo)
  10. RE: RE: negotiation costs (Kevin Gliner)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 12:14:12 -0400
From: "Adeo Ressi" <adeo at gametrust.com>
Subject: [casual_games] RE: negotiation costs
To: <casual_games at igda.org>
Message-ID: <auto-000063519322 at mail1.xif.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

The $2-5K per portal referenced most likely refers to the legal time
required to properly review each unique contract. 

 

Every developer should have a real lawyer review any agreement with a
portal, and these agreements tend to differ widely on the terms. A lot of
portals have legal clauses that they put in the agreements, but expect to be
negotiated out or changed by savvy developers relating to rights, payment
terms, and other distribution criteria.

 

It should be noted, as others have suggested, that most large portals are
now dealing only with a limited number of proven developers directly. It is
wiser to focus on making your game amazing than attempting to negotiate
expensive portal distribution deals. 

 

With a couple success stories under your belt as a developer, it should be
easier to for you to negotiate. Get a good lawyer.

 


Sincerely - Adeo Ressi / CEO / Game Trust

- get an arcade for your site-
<http://launchnow.gametrust.com/LaunchNow.php> LaunchNow

- win $20,000 for your hit game-  <http://www.gametrust.com/contests.php>
Casual Game Evolution

- try some exciting multiplayer titles-  <http://www.trugamer.com> TruGamer

 

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Message: 2
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2006 09:53:08 -0700
From: Lennard Feddersen <Lennard at RustyAxe.com>
Subject: Re: [casual_games] RE: negotiation costs
To: IGDA Casual Games SIG Mailing List <casual_games at igda.org>
Message-ID: <443698F4.8060101 at RustyAxe.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Adeo, I come from a traditional game development background where, on 
top of your royalty (10-30% in my experience, give or take, YMMV), you 
get a real advance against royalties when you sign that first check with 
a single publisher.  After Ryan drops his hard earned dough on a lawyer, 
gets the contract wrangled and signs the deal, are you going to cut him 
an advance check that covers those costs and maybe even some of the 
costs of building his amazing game?

I haven't had a hit yet.  Maybe I never will work on a hit casual space 
game.  Got another one in the works though, so hope springs eternal.  My 
experience with portals is that you deal with lots of them, you get 
checks for a few hundred a month (if that, some are falling far short of 
that #) and, realistically, you have no recourse if they decide to 
fiddle the books.  Let's take Tribal Trouble, a pretty successful indie 
game from last year which has actually managed to net 60K (source 
http://www.gameproducer.net/2006/04/...ribal-trouble/ 
<http://www.gameproducer.net/2006/04/06/sales-stats-tribal-trouble/>).  
Few guys worked for a couple years being funded by the govt. of Denmark 
so they could eat while building. the game.  Lets' say they sign with 10 
portals and drop 2K (Ryans low end figure) on each contract.  1/3 of 
their net, at 20K.  Those guys living on a subsistence wage, maybe, are 
now making even less.  Hope they don't have a mortgage, wife or kids.  
Anyhow.  What happens when they think they are getting screwed by a 
portal located on the other side of the world?  How much to get a 
judgement (not to collect, just a judgement), when they have to fly that 
lawyer around to try and figure out what is owed, take the portal to 
court, hopefully prevail (or they are likely on the hook for the portals 
legal costs as well) and then try to collect.  Hope you wrote Zuma.

I saw another developer recently who reported a 2K net after he and his 
team had worked for (as I recall) two years.  How happy would they have 
been when those checks started showing up and they had spent the 
additional 20K on portal contracts?

My advice?  If you want to develop in the casual space then read those 
contracts carefully, drop that first game into the market to see what 
you will actually earn (not what the NYT says you will earn if you have 
written the next Zuma).  You may find that most portals aren't worth 
spending 2K on.  The reality is that, in a cyber world, it is important 
to be able to trust your business partners because the cost of recouping 
lost $ almost always outweighs the actual $ lost. 

I know what I'm talking about.  About 10 years ago I noticed that a game 
that I had written in 1992 was still selling in the bargain bins - about 
4 years after release - and I just couldn't remember getting any royalty 
checks!  I spent the dough on a lawyer.  Got the friend rate, 
thankfully, still dropped a couple K on what I guessed was a community 
service project, didn't really expect to get my $.  Got a 56K judgement 
and they went out of business.  The company was Cyberdreams, the game 
was Darkseed.

My 2 cents, YMMV,

Lennard Feddersen
CEO, Rusty Axe Games, Inc.
www.RustyAxe.com

Lennard at RustyAxe.com
P. 250-635-7623 F. 1-309-422-2466
3521 Dogwood, Terrace, BC, Canada, V8G-4Y7



Adeo Ressi wrote:

> The $2-5K per portal referenced most likely refers to the legal time 
> required to properly review each unique contract.
>
>  
>
> Every developer should have a real lawyer review any agreement with a 
> portal, and these agreements tend to differ widely on the terms. A lot 
> of portals have legal clauses that they put in the agreements, but 
> expect to be negotiated out or changed by savvy developers relating to 
> rights, payment terms, and other distribution criteria.
>
>  
>
> It should be noted, as others have suggested, that most large portals 
> are now dealing only with a limited number of proven developers 
> directly. It is wiser to focus on making your game amazing than 
> attempting to negotiate expensive portal distribution deals.
>
>  
>
> With a couple success stories under your belt as a developer, it 
> should be easier to for you to negotiate. Get a good lawyer.
>
>  
>
>
> Sincerely - **Adeo Ressi **/ CEO / Game Trust
>
> **- get an arcade for your site- LaunchNow 
> <http://launchnow.gametrust.com/LaunchNow.php>**
>
> **- win $20,000 for your hit game- Casual Game Evolution 
> <http://www.gametrust.com/contests.php>**
>
> **- try some exciting multiplayer titles- TruGamer 
> <http://www.trugamer.com>**
>
>  
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>Casual_Games mailing list
>Casual_Games at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/casual_games
>  
>


------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 11:12:00 -0700
From: "Christopher Natsuume" <natsuume at boomzap.com>
Subject: RE: [casual_games] RE: negotiation costs
To: "'IGDA Casual Games SIG Mailing List'" <casual_games at igda.org>
Message-ID: <20060407181204.5AE47FA542 at mailwash7.pair.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

You will find that the large reputable portals have pretty boiler plate
contracts. Most of these companies release 2-3 games a week or more. They do
not have the time or energy to negotiate each deal out in detail. Instead,
they have a standard agreement that they change a few words in. These are
(in my experience) pretty simple and generally fair in terms of not having
strange loopholes, etc. 

 

Generally, if you don't understand something in the contracts, ASK. They
should be able to explain the purpose of every clause in the contract to you
*and the reason why they require that protection*. If they do not have a
compelling story for why they need that protection, ask them to remove that
clause entirely. If still in doubt, then have all of your notes and
questions ready, and you should be able to get a lawyer to look at it and
answer your questions in an hour or two.

 

And if after all of that, the portal insists on some clause that does not
make sense to you, or which you think is unfair, or which your lawyer
objects to, just walk away. If you find 3 or more things in the contract
that you think are abusive, even if they are willing to remove them, you
should probably walk away. The beauty of this industry is that there are a
lot of portals. Most of the large successful ones are run by decent people
who are trying to make honest money. You don't have to work with people you
don't trust, and in fact, you really shouldn't. 

 

Contracts are not magic, they are simple documents that you can and SHOULD
be able to read and understand yourself. If you don't understand it
personally, you have no business signing it - no matter how many lawyers
have looked it over. Your lawyer is not the one liable - you are. If you are
currently unsure of your ability to read and understand contracts, and are
serious about running a business, take a night class at the community
college. Will cost you less than a trip to a lawyer and be infinitely more
useful. You will see a lot of contracts in the future - you should
understand them as well as anything else about your business.

 

And Lennard makes a good point - at the end of the day a contract is only a
piece of paper. In times of crisis, you will actually have to *enforce* that
contract, and that's where the real money comes in. So don't think that just
signing a contract solves your legal issues - it won't. You should conserve
your "legal fund" money for actual enforcement, because that's when you're
really going to need it.

 

Cheers,

Cn

 

__________________________

 

Christopher Natsuume

Co-Founder, Boomzap

natsuume at boomzap.com

 

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: casual_games-bounces at igda.org [mailto:casual_games-bounces at igda.org]
On Behalf Of Lennard Feddersen
Sent: Friday, April 07, 2006 9:53 AM
To: IGDA Casual Games SIG Mailing List
Subject: Re: [casual_games] RE: negotiation costs

 

Adeo, I come from a traditional game development background where, on 

top of your royalty (10-30% in my experience, give or take, YMMV), you 

get a real advance against royalties when you sign that first check with 

a single publisher.  After Ryan drops his hard earned dough on a lawyer, 

gets the contract wrangled and signs the deal, are you going to cut him 

an advance check that covers those costs and maybe even some of the 

costs of building his amazing game?

 

I haven't had a hit yet.  Maybe I never will work on a hit casual space 

game.  Got another one in the works though, so hope springs eternal.  My 

experience with portals is that you deal with lots of them, you get 

checks for a few hundred a month (if that, some are falling far short of 

that #) and, realistically, you have no recourse if they decide to 

fiddle the books.  Let's take Tribal Trouble, a pretty successful indie 

game from last year which has actually managed to net 60K (source 

http://www.gameproducer.net/2006/04/...ribal-trouble/ 

<http://www.gameproducer.net/2006/04/06/sales-stats-tribal-trouble/>).  

Few guys worked for a couple years being funded by the govt. of Denmark 

so they could eat while building. the game.  Lets' say they sign with 10 

portals and drop 2K (Ryans low end figure) on each contract.  1/3 of 

their net, at 20K.  Those guys living on a subsistence wage, maybe, are 

now making even less.  Hope they don't have a mortgage, wife or kids.  

Anyhow.  What happens when they think they are getting screwed by a 

portal located on the other side of the world?  How much to get a 

judgement (not to collect, just a judgement), when they have to fly that 

lawyer around to try and figure out what is owed, take the portal to 

court, hopefully prevail (or they are likely on the hook for the portals 

legal costs as well) and then try to collect.  Hope you wrote Zuma.

 

I saw another developer recently who reported a 2K net after he and his 

team had worked for (as I recall) two years.  How happy would they have 

been when those checks started showing up and they had spent the 

additional 20K on portal contracts?

 

My advice?  If you want to develop in the casual space then read those 

contracts carefully, drop that first game into the market to see what 

you will actually earn (not what the NYT says you will earn if you have 

written the next Zuma).  You may find that most portals aren't worth 

spending 2K on.  The reality is that, in a cyber world, it is important 

to be able to trust your business partners because the cost of recouping 

lost $ almost always outweighs the actual $ lost. 

 

I know what I'm talking about.  About 10 years ago I noticed that a game 

that I had written in 1992 was still selling in the bargain bins - about 

4 years after release - and I just couldn't remember getting any royalty 

checks!  I spent the dough on a lawyer.  Got the friend rate, 

thankfully, still dropped a couple K on what I guessed was a community 

service project, didn't really expect to get my $.  Got a 56K judgement 

and they went out of business.  The company was Cyberdreams, the game 

was Darkseed.

 

My 2 cents, YMMV,

 

Lennard Feddersen

CEO, Rusty Axe Games, Inc.

www.RustyAxe.com

 

Lennard at RustyAxe.com

P. 250-635-7623 F. 1-309-422-2466

3521 Dogwood, Terrace, BC, Canada, V8G-4Y7

 

 

 

Adeo Ressi wrote:

 

> The $2-5K per portal referenced most likely refers to the legal time 

> required to properly review each unique contract.

> 

>  

> 

> Every developer should have a real lawyer review any agreement with a 

> portal, and these agreements tend to differ widely on the terms. A lot 

> of portals have legal clauses that they put in the agreements, but 

> expect to be negotiated out or changed by savvy developers relating to 

> rights, payment terms, and other distribution criteria.

> 

>  

> 

> It should be noted, as others have suggested, that most large portals 

> are now dealing only with a limited number of proven developers 

> directly. It is wiser to focus on making your game amazing than 

> attempting to negotiate expensive portal distribution deals.

> 

>  

> 

> With a couple success stories under your belt as a developer, it 

> should be easier to for you to negotiate. Get a good lawyer.

> 

>  

> 

> 

> Sincerely - **Adeo Ressi **/ CEO / Game Trust

> 

> **- get an arcade for your site- LaunchNow 

> <http://launchnow.gametrust.com/LaunchNow.php>**

> 

> **- win $20,000 for your hit game- Casual Game Evolution 

> <http://www.gametrust.com/contests.php>**

> 

> **- try some exciting multiplayer titles- TruGamer 

> <http://www.trugamer.com>**

> 

>  

> 

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

> 

>_______________________________________________

>Casual_Games mailing list

>Casual_Games at igda.org

>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/casual_games

>  

> 

_______________________________________________

Casual_Games mailing list

Casual_Games at igda.org

http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/casual_games

 

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Message: 4
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 11:16:51 -0700
From: "Christopher Natsuume" <natsuume at boomzap.com>
Subject: [casual_games] Standard Casual Game Contract
To: "'IGDA Casual Games SIG Mailing List'" <casual_games at igda.org>
Message-ID: <20060407181654.4AE22FA547 at mailwash7.pair.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"


All of this talk about lawyers and contracts brings me to another point I
wanted to bring up. I was reading some of the casual game whitepapers, and
there was some talk of creating a standardized casual game contract with a
couple key changeable variables, but identical language that we could use
across the industry. I thought that was just a super idea.

If a couple of the larger portals (hint, hint) were willing to support the
effort and use such a contract, it would make life easier on everyone -
including the distributors themselves, as they could pretty much remove the
"deal with developers trying to change their boilerplate contract" step in
signing games - which would save a lot of producers I know a lot of time. 

If 2-3 of the really major portals were willing to use it, it would likely
have very wide adoption very quickly. I've seen a lot of casual game
contracts, and aside from some structure and wording, they all are about the
same in function. It seems wasteful to have to go through the specific
wording of each one just to make sure it truly is like all of the others -
seems simpler to just have a standard one to start with. And with a standard
contract, the potential frictions that could create legal disputes would
also be minimized, decreasing the contract enforcement burdens on both
parties as well.

The end result would be to keep more of our hard earned development money in
the hands of developers, publishers, and distributors, and not wasted on
unnecessary lawyers. Which we all want, no?

Anyone have any idea how we could get something like this started? 

Cn

__________________________

Christopher Natsuume
Co-Founder, Boomzap
natsuume at boomzap.com




------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 14:26:30 -0400
From: Marty Plumbo <me at martyplumbo.com>
Subject: Re: [casual_games] RE: negotiation costs
To: IGDA Casual Games SIG Mailing List <casual_games at igda.org>
Message-ID: <A6E1464B-30EF-4907-A505-4376684D1159 at martyplumbo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed

Maybe this isn't the kind of thing people want to go on he record
with, but what could really help those of us who are looking to
negotiate our first contract with a portal/publisher would be to know
by name which ones the more experienced of you have actually
had *bad* experiences with.


------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 14:48:54 -0400
From: "Eric Lamendola" <eric at slingo.com>
Subject: RE: [casual_games] RE: negotiation costs
To: "'IGDA Casual Games SIG Mailing List'" <casual_games at igda.org>
Message-ID: <008201c65a73$ebc84f70$5a01a8c0 at gandalf>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

One thing to think about,

 

Be careful what you sign away in IP rights. I can appreciate what some
people have said, as it does "get easier over time" to recognize some pretty
basic legalese.  But for any company or person who is not experienced in
this matter, it is imperative that you get adequate counsel.  You need to
completely understand terms in a contract before signing as you may not be
sure what rights you are potentially granting which could put you (as an IP
holder) in a position where your product cannot be licensed to another
medium (for instance).  Licensing rights are infinitely divisible.  

 

Find a good IP lawyer - if you have already invested 60K in development, it
really shouldn't be a shock to have to spend a few thousand to ensure your
IP is protected (legal fees, trademarks, etc.).  Especially if you have a
product you intend to build a "brand" out of.

 

Regards,

 

Eric

 

 

Eric Lamendola

Director of Operations & Business Development

Slingo, Inc.

 

  _____  

From: casual_games-bounces at igda.org [mailto:casual_games-bounces at igda.org]
On Behalf Of Christopher Natsuume
Sent: Friday, April 07, 2006 2:12 PM
To: 'IGDA Casual Games SIG Mailing List'
Subject: RE: [casual_games] RE: negotiation costs

 

 

You will find that the large reputable portals have pretty boiler plate
contracts. Most of these companies release 2-3 games a week or more. They do
not have the time or energy to negotiate each deal out in detail. Instead,
they have a standard agreement that they change a few words in. These are
(in my experience) pretty simple and generally fair in terms of not having
strange loopholes, etc. 

 

Generally, if you don't understand something in the contracts, ASK. They
should be able to explain the purpose of every clause in the contract to you
*and the reason why they require that protection*. If they do not have a
compelling story for why they need that protection, ask them to remove that
clause entirely. If still in doubt, then have all of your notes and
questions ready, and you should be able to get a lawyer to look at it and
answer your questions in an hour or two.

 

And if after all of that, the portal insists on some clause that does not
make sense to you, or which you think is unfair, or which your lawyer
objects to, just walk away. If you find 3 or more things in the contract
that you think are abusive, even if they are willing to remove them, you
should probably walk away. The beauty of this industry is that there are a
lot of portals. Most of the large successful ones are run by decent people
who are trying to make honest money. You don't have to work with people you
don't trust, and in fact, you really shouldn't. 

 

Contracts are not magic, they are simple documents that you can and SHOULD
be able to read and understand yourself. If you don't understand it
personally, you have no business signing it - no matter how many lawyers
have looked it over. Your lawyer is not the one liable - you are. If you are
currently unsure of your ability to read and understand contracts, and are
serious about running a business, take a night class at the community
college. Will cost you less than a trip to a lawyer and be infinitely more
useful. You will see a lot of contracts in the future - you should
understand them as well as anything else about your business.

 

And Lennard makes a good point - at the end of the day a contract is only a
piece of paper. In times of crisis, you will actually have to *enforce* that
contract, and that's where the real money comes in. So don't think that just
signing a contract solves your legal issues - it won't. You should conserve
your "legal fund" money for actual enforcement, because that's when you're
really going to need it.

 

Cheers,

Cn

 

__________________________

 

Christopher Natsuume

Co-Founder, Boomzap

natsuume at boomzap.com

 

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: casual_games-bounces at igda.org [mailto:casual_games-bounces at igda.org]
On Behalf Of Lennard Feddersen
Sent: Friday, April 07, 2006 9:53 AM
To: IGDA Casual Games SIG Mailing List
Subject: Re: [casual_games] RE: negotiation costs

 

Adeo, I come from a traditional game development background where, on 

top of your royalty (10-30% in my experience, give or take, YMMV), you 

get a real advance against royalties when you sign that first check with 

a single publisher.  After Ryan drops his hard earned dough on a lawyer, 

gets the contract wrangled and signs the deal, are you going to cut him 

an advance check that covers those costs and maybe even some of the 

costs of building his amazing game?

 

I haven't had a hit yet.  Maybe I never will work on a hit casual space 

game.  Got another one in the works though, so hope springs eternal.  My 

experience with portals is that you deal with lots of them, you get 

checks for a few hundred a month (if that, some are falling far short of 

that #) and, realistically, you have no recourse if they decide to 

fiddle the books.  Let's take Tribal Trouble, a pretty successful indie 

game from last year which has actually managed to net 60K (source 

http://www.gameproducer.net/2006/04/...ribal-trouble/ 

<http://www.gameproducer.net/2006/04/06/sales-stats-tribal-trouble/>).  

Few guys worked for a couple years being funded by the govt. of Denmark 

so they could eat while building. the game.  Lets' say they sign with 10 

portals and drop 2K (Ryans low end figure) on each contract.  1/3 of 

their net, at 20K.  Those guys living on a subsistence wage, maybe, are 

now making even less.  Hope they don't have a mortgage, wife or kids.  

Anyhow.  What happens when they think they are getting screwed by a 

portal located on the other side of the world?  How much to get a 

judgement (not to collect, just a judgement), when they have to fly that 

lawyer around to try and figure out what is owed, take the portal to 

court, hopefully prevail (or they are likely on the hook for the portals 

legal costs as well) and then try to collect.  Hope you wrote Zuma.

 

I saw another developer recently who reported a 2K net after he and his 

team had worked for (as I recall) two years.  How happy would they have 

been when those checks started showing up and they had spent the 

additional 20K on portal contracts?

 

My advice?  If you want to develop in the casual space then read those 

contracts carefully, drop that first game into the market to see what 

you will actually earn (not what the NYT says you will earn if you have 

written the next Zuma).  You may find that most portals aren't worth 

spending 2K on.  The reality is that, in a cyber world, it is important 

to be able to trust your business partners because the cost of recouping 

lost $ almost always outweighs the actual $ lost. 

 

I know what I'm talking about.  About 10 years ago I noticed that a game 

that I had written in 1992 was still selling in the bargain bins - about 

4 years after release - and I just couldn't remember getting any royalty 

checks!  I spent the dough on a lawyer.  Got the friend rate, 

thankfully, still dropped a couple K on what I guessed was a community 

service project, didn't really expect to get my $.  Got a 56K judgement 

and they went out of business.  The company was Cyberdreams, the game 

was Darkseed.

 

My 2 cents, YMMV,

 

Lennard Feddersen

CEO, Rusty Axe Games, Inc.

www.RustyAxe.com

 

Lennard at RustyAxe.com

P. 250-635-7623 F. 1-309-422-2466

3521 Dogwood, Terrace, BC, Canada, V8G-4Y7

 

 

 

Adeo Ressi wrote:

 

> The $2-5K per portal referenced most likely refers to the legal time 

> required to properly review each unique contract.

> 

>  

> 

> Every developer should have a real lawyer review any agreement with a 

> portal, and these agreements tend to differ widely on the terms. A lot 

> of portals have legal clauses that they put in the agreements, but 

> expect to be negotiated out or changed by savvy developers relating to 

> rights, payment terms, and other distribution criteria.

> 

>  

> 

> It should be noted, as others have suggested, that most large portals 

> are now dealing only with a limited number of proven developers 

> directly. It is wiser to focus on making your game amazing than 

> attempting to negotiate expensive portal distribution deals.

> 

>  

> 

> With a couple success stories under your belt as a developer, it 

> should be easier to for you to negotiate. Get a good lawyer.

> 

>  

> 

> 

> Sincerely - **Adeo Ressi **/ CEO / Game Trust

> 

> **- get an arcade for your site- LaunchNow 

> <http://launchnow.gametrust.com/LaunchNow.php>**

> 

> **- win $20,000 for your hit game- Casual Game Evolution 

> <http://www.gametrust.com/contests.php>**

> 

> **- try some exciting multiplayer titles- TruGamer 

> <http://www.trugamer.com>**

> 

>  

> 

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

> 

>_______________________________________________

>Casual_Games mailing list

>Casual_Games at igda.org

>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/casual_games

>  

> 

_______________________________________________

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Message: 7
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2006 16:18:13 -0400
From: "Thomas H. Buscaglia" <thb at gameattorney.com>
Subject: [casual_games] Somebody say Lawyer?
To: casual_games at igda.org
Message-ID: <7.0.0.16.2.20060407161659.06d447e0 at intelaw.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Hey all.  Mitzi told mme that you all may have a 
few questions about distribution contracts that I 
might be ab le to help out with...what's up?

Tom B


$:0`0:$,88,$:0`0:$$:0`0:$,88,$:0`0:$
Thomas H. Buscaglia, Esquire
The Game Attorney
T. H. Buscaglia and Associates
80 Southwest 8th Street
Suite 2100 - Brickell Bayview Center
Miami, FL  33130
Tel (305) 324-6000
Fax (305) 324-1111
Toll Free 888-848-GLAW
http://www.gameattorney.com
$:0`0:$,88,$:0`0:$$:0`0:$,88,$:0`0:$


Confidential:  This email contains communications 
protected by the attorney-client privilege.  If 
you do not expect such a communication from 
Thomas H. Buscaglia, please delete this message 
without reading it or any attachment, and then 
notify Mr. Buscaglia at thb at intelaw.com of this inadvertent misdelivery.
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Message: 8
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2006 13:28:33 -0700
From: Lennard Feddersen <Lennard at RustyAxe.com>
Subject: Re: [casual_games] RE: negotiation costs
To: IGDA Casual Games SIG Mailing List <casual_games at igda.org>
Message-ID: <4436CB71.7060208 at RustyAxe.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Boy this would be helpful.  Unfortunately it's something that could 
easily be abused and, more importantly, puts you in danger of legal 
recourse if somebody decides to make a claim that you have committed 
libel and caused them financial harm.  Building a circle of developer 
friends with whom you can share notes is probably your best practical 
defense.

Lennard Feddersen
CEO, Rusty Axe Games, Inc.
www.RustyAxe.com

Lennard at RustyAxe.com
P. 250-635-7623 F. 1-309-422-2466
3521 Dogwood, Terrace, BC, Canada, V8G-4Y7



Marty Plumbo wrote:

> Maybe this isn't the kind of thing people want to go on he record
> with, but what could really help those of us who are looking to
> negotiate our first contract with a portal/publisher would be to know
> by name which ones the more experienced of you have actually
> had *bad* experiences with.
> _______________________________________________
> Casual_Games mailing list
> Casual_Games at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/casual_games
>


------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 16:35:26 -0400
From: Marty Plumbo <me at martyplumbo.com>
Subject: Re: [casual_games] RE: negotiation costs
To: IGDA Casual Games SIG Mailing List <casual_games at igda.org>
Message-ID: <75E00CF7-733E-441F-B0A5-6ABBEF1598E2 at martyplumbo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed


Boy this would be helpful.  Unfortunately it's something that could  
easily be abused and, more importantly, puts you in danger of legal  
recourse if somebody decides to make a claim that you have committed  
libel and caused them financial harm.  Building a circle of developer  
friends with whom you can share notes is probably your best practical  
defense.

-----  Sounds like the kind of thing that would be easy to do on a  
list.     ;-)





------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 16:03:04 -0500
From: "Kevin Gliner" <kgliner at yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [casual_games] RE: negotiation costs
To: "'IGDA Casual Games SIG Mailing List'" <casual_games at igda.org>
Message-ID: <20060407210515.8DFD0FA544 at mailwash7.pair.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

If and when you do seek counsel, make sure to find someone familiar with the
industry you are in.  Finding a good IP lawyer isn't going to cut it--
you'll spend a lot of time and money educating them about what is and isn't
relevant to the work you do.  Look for counsel that is familiar with game
industry publishing and distribution contracts.  If they already get that,
it's likely they have a solid understanding of IP issues.
 
Something else to help you save money:  don't have your lawyer mark up the
drafts.  Just have him review them with you before you communicate the
issues to the portal/publisher/distributor.  Then let the portal/etc craft
the actual language to meet your needs.  They'll usually prefer this anyway,
and may even insist.  Lawyers love to rewrite each others copy and they hate
it when someone else does it;  best to just get the points resolved and make
the other side burn the time on drafting the language.  That probably runs
counter to how most folks like to handle their contract negotiations, but I
find it makes things go smoother.
 
 
  Kevin

  _____  

From: casual_games-bounces at igda.org [mailto:casual_games-bounces at igda.org]
On Behalf Of Eric Lamendola
Sent: Friday, April 07, 2006 1:49 PM
To: 'IGDA Casual Games SIG Mailing List'
Subject: RE: [casual_games] RE: negotiation costs



One thing to think about,

 

Be careful what you sign away in IP rights. I can appreciate what some
people have said, as it does "get easier over time" to recognize some pretty
basic legalese.  But for any company or person who is not experienced in
this matter, it is imperative that you get adequate counsel.  You need to
completely understand terms in a contract before signing as you may not be
sure what rights you are potentially granting which could put you (as an IP
holder) in a position where your product cannot be licensed to another
medium (for instance).  Licensing rights are infinitely divisible.  

 

Find a good IP lawyer - if you have already invested 60K in development, it
really shouldn't be a shock to have to spend a few thousand to ensure your
IP is protected (legal fees, trademarks, etc.).  Especially if you have a
product you intend to build a "brand" out of.

 

Regards,

 

Eric

 

 

Eric Lamendola

Director of Operations & Business Development

Slingo, Inc.

 

  _____  

From: casual_games-bounces at igda.org [mailto:casual_games-bounces at igda.org]
On Behalf Of Christopher Natsuume
Sent: Friday, April 07, 2006 2:12 PM
To: 'IGDA Casual Games SIG Mailing List'
Subject: RE: [casual_games] RE: negotiation costs

 

 

You will find that the large reputable portals have pretty boiler plate
contracts. Most of these companies release 2-3 games a week or more. They do
not have the time or energy to negotiate each deal out in detail. Instead,
they have a standard agreement that they change a few words in. These are
(in my experience) pretty simple and generally fair in terms of not having
strange loopholes, etc. 

 

Generally, if you don't understand something in the contracts, ASK. They
should be able to explain the purpose of every clause in the contract to you
*and the reason why they require that protection*. If they do not have a
compelling story for why they need that protection, ask them to remove that
clause entirely. If still in doubt, then have all of your notes and
questions ready, and you should be able to get a lawyer to look at it and
answer your questions in an hour or two.

 

And if after all of that, the portal insists on some clause that does not
make sense to you, or which you think is unfair, or which your lawyer
objects to, just walk away. If you find 3 or more things in the contract
that you think are abusive, even if they are willing to remove them, you
should probably walk away. The beauty of this industry is that there are a
lot of portals. Most of the large successful ones are run by decent people
who are trying to make honest money. You don't have to work with people you
don't trust, and in fact, you really shouldn't. 

 

Contracts are not magic, they are simple documents that you can and SHOULD
be able to read and understand yourself. If you don't understand it
personally, you have no business signing it - no matter how many lawyers
have looked it over. Your lawyer is not the one liable - you are. If you are
currently unsure of your ability to read and understand contracts, and are
serious about running a business, take a night class at the community
college. Will cost you less than a trip to a lawyer and be infinitely more
useful. You will see a lot of contracts in the future - you should
understand them as well as anything else about your business.

 

And Lennard makes a good point - at the end of the day a contract is only a
piece of paper. In times of crisis, you will actually have to *enforce* that
contract, and that's where the real money comes in. So don't think that just
signing a contract solves your legal issues - it won't. You should conserve
your "legal fund" money for actual enforcement, because that's when you're
really going to need it.

 

Cheers,

Cn

 

__________________________

 

Christopher Natsuume

Co-Founder, Boomzap

natsuume at boomzap.com

 

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: casual_games-bounces at igda.org [mailto:casual_games-bounces at igda.org]
On Behalf Of Lennard Feddersen
Sent: Friday, April 07, 2006 9:53 AM
To: IGDA Casual Games SIG Mailing List
Subject: Re: [casual_games] RE: negotiation costs

 

Adeo, I come from a traditional game development background where, on 

top of your royalty (10-30% in my experience, give or take, YMMV), you 

get a real advance against royalties when you sign that first check with 

a single publisher.  After Ryan drops his hard earned dough on a lawyer, 

gets the contract wrangled and signs the deal, are you going to cut him 

an advance check that covers those costs and maybe even some of the 

costs of building his amazing game?

 

I haven't had a hit yet.  Maybe I never will work on a hit casual space 

game.  Got another one in the works though, so hope springs eternal.  My 

experience with portals is that you deal with lots of them, you get 

checks for a few hundred a month (if that, some are falling far short of 

that #) and, realistically, you have no recourse if they decide to 

fiddle the books.  Let's take Tribal Trouble, a pretty successful indie 

game from last year which has actually managed to net 60K (source 

http://www.gameproducer.net/2006/04/...ribal-trouble/ 

<http://www.gameproducer.net/2006/04/06/sales-stats-tribal-trouble/>).  

Few guys worked for a couple years being funded by the govt. of Denmark 

so they could eat while building. the game.  Lets' say they sign with 10 

portals and drop 2K (Ryans low end figure) on each contract.  1/3 of 

their net, at 20K.  Those guys living on a subsistence wage, maybe, are 

now making even less.  Hope they don't have a mortgage, wife or kids.  

Anyhow.  What happens when they think they are getting screwed by a 

portal located on the other side of the world?  How much to get a 

judgement (not to collect, just a judgement), when they have to fly that 

lawyer around to try and figure out what is owed, take the portal to 

court, hopefully prevail (or they are likely on the hook for the portals 

legal costs as well) and then try to collect.  Hope you wrote Zuma.

 

I saw another developer recently who reported a 2K net after he and his 

team had worked for (as I recall) two years.  How happy would they have 

been when those checks started showing up and they had spent the 

additional 20K on portal contracts?

 

My advice?  If you want to develop in the casual space then read those 

contracts carefully, drop that first game into the market to see what 

you will actually earn (not what the NYT says you will earn if you have 

written the next Zuma).  You may find that most portals aren't worth 

spending 2K on.  The reality is that, in a cyber world, it is important 

to be able to trust your business partners because the cost of recouping 

lost $ almost always outweighs the actual $ lost. 

 

I know what I'm talking about.  About 10 years ago I noticed that a game 

that I had written in 1992 was still selling in the bargain bins - about 

4 years after release - and I just couldn't remember getting any royalty 

checks!  I spent the dough on a lawyer.  Got the friend rate, 

thankfully, still dropped a couple K on what I guessed was a community 

service project, didn't really expect to get my $.  Got a 56K judgement 

and they went out of business.  The company was Cyberdreams, the game 

was Darkseed.

 

My 2 cents, YMMV,

 

Lennard Feddersen

CEO, Rusty Axe Games, Inc.

www.RustyAxe.com

 

Lennard at RustyAxe.com

P. 250-635-7623 F. 1-309-422-2466

3521 Dogwood, Terrace, BC, Canada, V8G-4Y7

 

 

 

Adeo Ressi wrote:

 

> The $2-5K per portal referenced most likely refers to the legal time 

> required to properly review each unique contract.

> 

>  

> 

> Every developer should have a real lawyer review any agreement with a 

> portal, and these agreements tend to differ widely on the terms. A lot 

> of portals have legal clauses that they put in the agreements, but 

> expect to be negotiated out or changed by savvy developers relating to 

> rights, payment terms, and other distribution criteria.

> 

>  

> 

> It should be noted, as others have suggested, that most large portals 

> are now dealing only with a limited number of proven developers 

> directly. It is wiser to focus on making your game amazing than 

> attempting to negotiate expensive portal distribution deals.

> 

>  

> 

> With a couple success stories under your belt as a developer, it 

> should be easier to for you to negotiate. Get a good lawyer.

> 

>  

> 

> 

> Sincerely - **Adeo Ressi **/ CEO / Game Trust

> 

> **- get an arcade for your site- LaunchNow 

> <http://launchnow.gametrust.com/LaunchNow.php>**

> 

> **- win $20,000 for your hit game- Casual Game Evolution 

> <http://www.gametrust.com/contests.php>**

> 

> **- try some exciting multiplayer titles- TruGamer 

> <http://www.trugamer.com>**

> 

>  

> 

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

> 

>_______________________________________________

>Casual_Games mailing list

>Casual_Games at igda.org

>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/casual_games

>  

> 

_______________________________________________

Casual_Games mailing list

Casual_Games at igda.org

http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/casual_games

 

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