[casual_games] RE: Copycats -- What Can Be Done?

Wed Jul 19 15:45:20 EDT 2006

>> I'm also curious if anyone knows if you can claim copyright on some
>> sounds that you licensed, but "tweaked". There must be some serious gray
>> area there and it would probably have to be determined on a case by case
>> basis.

We had a meeting with our attorney over what can be copyrighted in our first
game, and with audio and art this is how it goes (mostly common sense
stuff):

-If it's produced from scratch, that's your original work and you should
protect it.
-If it's used from the public domain, you're also in the clear.
-If it's a derivative of someone else's work and you tweak it, you must
describe the differences between the two when applying for copyright and go
from there (that's where it becomes a gray area and apparently it's heaven
for attorneys since these things come up allll the time).

So you're right, you can claim copyright in some instances but it's
definitely fuzzy and a case-by-case thing. Depends on how much you change
the original and what you do with it.

Ben Lewis
Yatec Games
Marketing and Sales
(225)274-1550
blewis at yatecgames.com
http://www.yatecgames.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Austin Haas [mailto:austin at pettomato.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 1:36 PM
To: IGDA Casual Games SIG Mailing List
Subject: Re: [casual_games] RE: Copycats -- What Can Be Done?

I just wanted to add that I appreciate your initial post tremendously, and
I'm
not trying dismiss it. I think the issues of cloning and copyright are some
of
the most important things that we can discuss on this list.

I'm also curious if anyone knows if you can claim copyright on some sounds
that
you licensed, but "tweaked". There must be some serious gray area there and
it
would probably have to be determined on a case by case basis.

-austin

Austin Haas
Pet Tomato, Inc.
http://pettomato.com

Austin Haas wrote:
> "The "Portugese plumber" example is tantamount to what I "perceived" was
being
> done with the sound effects straight from Zuma..."
> 
> Only if the sound effects were engineered from scratch and not pulled from
a
> sound library would this be a fair comparison. Or, conversely, if the
Mario
> character was pulled from some royalty-free clip art. It is entirely
possible
> that the sound effect is even labeled "gem pop" or something similar in
the
> sound library.
> 
> I think cloning games is lame, but I want to be clear about what is and
what
> isn't copyright infringement.
> 
> You might want to argue that using the sound in that context is what makes
it
> infringe, but I have libraries of sound fx that are labeled "forcefield
> powerup," "health pickup," etc., so I don't think anyone would have any
claim
> for how they are used.
> 
> -austin
> 
> Austin Haas
> Pet Tomato, Inc.
> http://pettomato.com
> 
> Jamie Carlson wrote:
>> Hi Kim,
>>
>>> - Jamie, You've spawned a good discussion. However, if you are going to
>>> start accusing people of such things, the *least* you could do is
>>> download the game, vs watching the preview video.
>> Totally agree. And I did give Dynasty about 15 minutes but was unable to
>> get the "explosion" or "slow down" powerups so was unable to hear their
>> respective sounds (I only was able to get the "colored dragon" powerups
>> which eat the like-colored eggs down the level's path).
>>
>> After that initial sampling, and when compounded by my positive-bias
>> towards BigFishGames, I just deemed it to be inconceivable that BFG
>> would go to the trouble to alter the video and overlay Zuma's sounds...
>> obviously, I was wrong.
>>
>> I thank James Smith for verifying this for me as well:
>>
>>> James Smith said:
>>> When I watched the movie on BigFishGames.com I was amazed that such a
>>> similar sound would be used for such a similar purpose. It seemed very
>>> unjust.   But when I played the actual game I did not find anything I
>>> considered to be an unjust use of sounds.
>> Heck, Popcap is certainly more than capable of discerning themselves
>> which Zuma-clones they feel they have grounds to sue over (see first
>> paragraph of the review of Magnetica:
>> http://gba.gamespy.com/nintendo-ds/puzzeloop/711555p1.html), so mine is
>> just another opinion from the "Peanut Gallery". It's the beauty of the
>> Internet, everyone has a platform, do they not?  :)
>>
>>
>>> - The "dislodging" of the 'launcher' actually is an interesting mechanic
>>> change. You don't 'fire' the balls so much as swap them. In many ways
>>> this is more a bejewelled & Zuma hybrid more than it is a Zuma clone. In
>>> this way it's probably far more unique than many of the chainpoppers I
>>> see come across my desk.
>> After that initial 15 minutes, I admitted that the game is unique enough
>> to not be labelled as a straight "clone" of Zuma:
>>
>>> Jamie said:
>>> I played the trial and to further re-enforce the "It's different
>>> enough to be OK" standpoint they did change the gameplay mechanic
>>> significantly. The player "swaps" the dragon egg with the egg
>>> currently in the dragon's mouth. So in essence, this enables the
>>> player the ability to plan ahead and stage his own chains down the
>>> line (i.e. see
>>>
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetris_Attack>Tetris<http://en.wikipedia.org/w
iki/Tetris_Attack>
>>> Attack or numerous other puzzle games that are built upon this
>>> mechanic). It's an interesting twist to the Zuma formula.... but
>>> again, I'm moving along.
>>
>>
>>> I agree the sound effects are similar, but I don't agree they are
>>> identical. Running the EXE's side by side, I found Dynasty's effects had
>>> more reverb and more of a tinny sound to them. Did they literally *copy*
>>> them from the other app? If so, then yeah, that's a problem. However, if
>>> they mimicked them, or their audio people just thought "yeah, that's the
>>> sounds gems make when they collapse" or something, then I guess it's a
>>> point for debate.
>> Having played it for 15 minutes, I can attest that they are totally
>> separate sound treatments... However, the BFG video was an entirely
>> different story and probably should be changed.
>>
>>
>>> How unique does a sound have to be to make it copyrightable? How many of
>>> the casual games out there have "coin collect" sounds that sound *a
>>> little* similar to Mario on the SNES?
>> Sure, but Dynasty is clearly trying to capitalize on the action/puzzle
>> "chain-popper (as you called it)" fanbase which the release of Zuma
>> helped cultivate in the first place. Anyone who downloads the game is
>> doing so because they predominately enjoyed Zuma or Luxor, not because
>> "they like dragons".  :)
>>
>> If a side-scrolling platform game (marketed at Casual gamers) came
>> around with a 3D rendered "Portugese" plumber who came up on the title
>> screen and said "Its-a me, Martino!"... well, then yes, I think that's a
>> bit much.  :)
>>
>> The "Portugese plumber" example is tantamount to what I "perceived" was
>> being done with the sound effects straight from Zuma...
>>
>>
>>> P.S. I think that "copy mechanic, change theme" may be copycatting, but
>>> it addresses valid market demands. Some people may prefer a
>>> Space/Pirate/Kitten/Diner theme to an Aztec/Egyptian/Asian theme. It's
>>> unfortunate that we don't always see innovation with the gameplay with
>>> these, but that doesn't mean there isn't market demand for it.
>> Agreed with this in a previous email. I usually don't have a problem
>> with the clones that do a complete "thematic change" and add/tweak a few
>> mechanics. If it's done right then the experience is worthwhile in
>> itself (for the most part). Again, I'm not sure it's worth the purchase
>> price but that decision is entirely relative to the customer who is
>> playing it.
>>
>>
>>> Same holds true for first person shooters, RTS, and other games as well.
>>> Sometimes it's the same game with 'aliens invading earth' vs 'space
>>> marine invading alien planet'.
>> Again, the entire conversation stemmed from the fact that the sounds
>> were exact replicas of those used in Zuma... since it appears as though
>> that is not the case, then the entire discussion is moot.
>>
>>
>>> I agree the sound effects are similar, but I don't agree they are
>>> identical. Running the EXE's side by side, I found Dynasty's effects had
>>> more reverb and more of a tinny sound to them. Did they literally *copy*
>>> them from the other app? If so, then yeah, that's a problem.
>> It was my assertion that they did (as was the case when James Smith saw
>> the video on BFG, as well). If that's not true, then they're no worse
>> than any other game out there with a slight twist on a proven successful
>> concept/game_style.
>>
>>
>>> However, if they mimicked them, or their audio people just thought
>>> "yeah, that's the
>>> sounds gems make when they collapse" or something, then I guess it's a
>>> point for debate.
>> Would I pay $20 for Dynasty? No probably not... but again, that's
>> irrelevant.
>>
>> I'm sure thousands of others will buy it much to the pleasure of MSN,
>> Bigfishgames, and others (see Brian Robbin's "Don't Roll Over" or "One
>> Billion Dollars" presentations shown at Casuality a few weeks ago).
>>
>> Thanks for your time and thoughtful response,
>> - Jamie
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