[casual_games] RE: Copycats -- What Can Be Done?

Wed Jul 19 20:03:56 EDT 2006

As a developer and publisher of games this is a subject close to my heart.

In recent article in my blog (www.thelittlegamer.com) I called for what is
certainly not a short term solution but probably the only one that will work
over time and have some teeth.

This industry needs an industry body. This may be the IGDA or the The Casual
Games Association, or another as yet defined. That organisation then needs
to develop a set of guidelines and standards for cloning/copying/etc. It
then needs the ability to condemn/kickout/blacklist individuals who don't
follow the guidelines. 

Now I know this is going to take time and the organisation would need to be
credible and have all the big boys (and girls) as members, but this is the
route the industry should be taking IMHO.

Cheers

Colin

Colin Cardwell
The Person in Charge of Great Ideas
m +61 (0) 401 888 322
p +61 2 8923 1200
f +61 2 8904 9966

3RD sense Australia Pty Ltd
Unit 8.04
6a Glenn St
Milsons Point, NSW 2061
www.3rdsense.com

-----Original Message-----
From: casual_games-bounces at igda.org [mailto:casual_games-bounces at igda.org]
On Behalf Of Ben Lewis
Sent: Thursday, 20 July 2006 5:45 AM
To: IGDA Casual Games SIG Mailing List
Subject: RE: [casual_games] RE: Copycats -- What Can Be Done?

>> I'm also curious if anyone knows if you can claim copyright on some 
>> sounds that you licensed, but "tweaked". There must be some serious 
>> gray area there and it would probably have to be determined on a case 
>> by case basis.

We had a meeting with our attorney over what can be copyrighted in our first
game, and with audio and art this is how it goes (mostly common sense
stuff):

-If it's produced from scratch, that's your original work and you should
protect it.
-If it's used from the public domain, you're also in the clear.
-If it's a derivative of someone else's work and you tweak it, you must
describe the differences between the two when applying for copyright and go
from there (that's where it becomes a gray area and apparently it's heaven
for attorneys since these things come up allll the time).

So you're right, you can claim copyright in some instances but it's
definitely fuzzy and a case-by-case thing. Depends on how much you change
the original and what you do with it.

Ben Lewis
Yatec Games
Marketing and Sales
(225)274-1550
blewis at yatecgames.com
http://www.yatecgames.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Austin Haas [mailto:austin at pettomato.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 1:36 PM
To: IGDA Casual Games SIG Mailing List
Subject: Re: [casual_games] RE: Copycats -- What Can Be Done?

I just wanted to add that I appreciate your initial post tremendously, and
I'm not trying dismiss it. I think the issues of cloning and copyright are
some of the most important things that we can discuss on this list.

I'm also curious if anyone knows if you can claim copyright on some sounds
that you licensed, but "tweaked". There must be some serious gray area there
and it would probably have to be determined on a case by case basis.

-austin

Austin Haas
Pet Tomato, Inc.
http://pettomato.com

Austin Haas wrote:
> "The "Portugese plumber" example is tantamount to what I "perceived" 
> was
being
> done with the sound effects straight from Zuma..."
> 
> Only if the sound effects were engineered from scratch and not pulled 
> from
a
> sound library would this be a fair comparison. Or, conversely, if the
Mario
> character was pulled from some royalty-free clip art. It is entirely
possible
> that the sound effect is even labeled "gem pop" or something similar 
> in
the
> sound library.
> 
> I think cloning games is lame, but I want to be clear about what is 
> and
what
> isn't copyright infringement.
> 
> You might want to argue that using the sound in that context is what 
> makes
it
> infringe, but I have libraries of sound fx that are labeled 
> "forcefield powerup," "health pickup," etc., so I don't think anyone 
> would have any
claim
> for how they are used.
> 
> -austin
> 
> Austin Haas
> Pet Tomato, Inc.
> http://pettomato.com
> 
> Jamie Carlson wrote:
>> Hi Kim,
>>
>>> - Jamie, You've spawned a good discussion. However, if you are going 
>>> to start accusing people of such things, the *least* you could do is 
>>> download the game, vs watching the preview video.
>> Totally agree. And I did give Dynasty about 15 minutes but was unable 
>> to get the "explosion" or "slow down" powerups so was unable to hear 
>> their respective sounds (I only was able to get the "colored dragon" 
>> powerups which eat the like-colored eggs down the level's path).
>>
>> After that initial sampling, and when compounded by my positive-bias 
>> towards BigFishGames, I just deemed it to be inconceivable that BFG 
>> would go to the trouble to alter the video and overlay Zuma's sounds...
>> obviously, I was wrong.
>>
>> I thank James Smith for verifying this for me as well:
>>
>>> James Smith said:
>>> When I watched the movie on BigFishGames.com I was amazed that such 
>>> a similar sound would be used for such a similar purpose. It seemed very
>>> unjust.   But when I played the actual game I did not find anything I
>>> considered to be an unjust use of sounds.
>> Heck, Popcap is certainly more than capable of discerning themselves 
>> which Zuma-clones they feel they have grounds to sue over (see first 
>> paragraph of the review of Magnetica:
>> http://gba.gamespy.com/nintendo-ds/puzzeloop/711555p1.html), so mine 
>> is just another opinion from the "Peanut Gallery". It's the beauty of 
>> the Internet, everyone has a platform, do they not?  :)
>>
>>
>>> - The "dislodging" of the 'launcher' actually is an interesting 
>>> mechanic change. You don't 'fire' the balls so much as swap them. In 
>>> many ways this is more a bejewelled & Zuma hybrid more than it is a 
>>> Zuma clone. In this way it's probably far more unique than many of 
>>> the chainpoppers I see come across my desk.
>> After that initial 15 minutes, I admitted that the game is unique 
>> enough to not be labelled as a straight "clone" of Zuma:
>>
>>> Jamie said:
>>> I played the trial and to further re-enforce the "It's different 
>>> enough to be OK" standpoint they did change the gameplay mechanic 
>>> significantly. The player "swaps" the dragon egg with the egg 
>>> currently in the dragon's mouth. So in essence, this enables the 
>>> player the ability to plan ahead and stage his own chains down the 
>>> line (i.e. see
>>>
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetris_Attack>Tetris<http://en.wikipedia.org/w
iki/Tetris_Attack>
>>> Attack or numerous other puzzle games that are built upon this 
>>> mechanic). It's an interesting twist to the Zuma formula.... but 
>>> again, I'm moving along.
>>
>>
>>> I agree the sound effects are similar, but I don't agree they are 
>>> identical. Running the EXE's side by side, I found Dynasty's effects 
>>> had more reverb and more of a tinny sound to them. Did they 
>>> literally *copy* them from the other app? If so, then yeah, that's a 
>>> problem. However, if they mimicked them, or their audio people just 
>>> thought "yeah, that's the sounds gems make when they collapse" or 
>>> something, then I guess it's a point for debate.
>> Having played it for 15 minutes, I can attest that they are totally 
>> separate sound treatments... However, the BFG video was an entirely 
>> different story and probably should be changed.
>>
>>
>>> How unique does a sound have to be to make it copyrightable? How 
>>> many of the casual games out there have "coin collect" sounds that 
>>> sound *a
>>> little* similar to Mario on the SNES?
>> Sure, but Dynasty is clearly trying to capitalize on the 
>> action/puzzle "chain-popper (as you called it)" fanbase which the 
>> release of Zuma helped cultivate in the first place. Anyone who 
>> downloads the game is doing so because they predominately enjoyed 
>> Zuma or Luxor, not because "they like dragons".  :)
>>
>> If a side-scrolling platform game (marketed at Casual gamers) came 
>> around with a 3D rendered "Portugese" plumber who came up on the 
>> title screen and said "Its-a me, Martino!"... well, then yes, I think 
>> that's a bit much.  :)
>>
>> The "Portugese plumber" example is tantamount to what I "perceived" 
>> was being done with the sound effects straight from Zuma...
>>
>>
>>> P.S. I think that "copy mechanic, change theme" may be copycatting, 
>>> but it addresses valid market demands. Some people may prefer a 
>>> Space/Pirate/Kitten/Diner theme to an Aztec/Egyptian/Asian theme. 
>>> It's unfortunate that we don't always see innovation with the 
>>> gameplay with these, but that doesn't mean there isn't market demand for
it.
>> Agreed with this in a previous email. I usually don't have a problem 
>> with the clones that do a complete "thematic change" and add/tweak a 
>> few mechanics. If it's done right then the experience is worthwhile 
>> in itself (for the most part). Again, I'm not sure it's worth the 
>> purchase price but that decision is entirely relative to the customer 
>> who is playing it.
>>
>>
>>> Same holds true for first person shooters, RTS, and other games as well.
>>> Sometimes it's the same game with 'aliens invading earth' vs 'space 
>>> marine invading alien planet'.
>> Again, the entire conversation stemmed from the fact that the sounds 
>> were exact replicas of those used in Zuma... since it appears as 
>> though that is not the case, then the entire discussion is moot.
>>
>>
>>> I agree the sound effects are similar, but I don't agree they are 
>>> identical. Running the EXE's side by side, I found Dynasty's effects 
>>> had more reverb and more of a tinny sound to them. Did they 
>>> literally *copy* them from the other app? If so, then yeah, that's a
problem.
>> It was my assertion that they did (as was the case when James Smith 
>> saw the video on BFG, as well). If that's not true, then they're no 
>> worse than any other game out there with a slight twist on a proven 
>> successful concept/game_style.
>>
>>
>>> However, if they mimicked them, or their audio people just thought 
>>> "yeah, that's the sounds gems make when they collapse" or something, 
>>> then I guess it's a point for debate.
>> Would I pay $20 for Dynasty? No probably not... but again, that's 
>> irrelevant.
>>
>> I'm sure thousands of others will buy it much to the pleasure of MSN, 
>> Bigfishgames, and others (see Brian Robbin's "Don't Roll Over" or 
>> "One Billion Dollars" presentations shown at Casuality a few weeks ago).
>>
>> Thanks for your time and thoughtful response,
>> - Jamie
>> _______________________________________________
>> Casual_Games mailing list
>> Casual_Games at igda.org
>> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/casual_games
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Casual_Games mailing list
> Casual_Games at igda.org
> http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/casual_games
> 
_______________________________________________
Casual_Games mailing list
Casual_Games at igda.org
http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/casual_games
_______________________________________________
Casual_Games mailing list
Casual_Games at igda.org
http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/casual_games