[casual_games] Re: Games for women made by women?
k f
mamaji4 at hotmail.com
Thu Jun 8 06:18:51 EDT 2006
We have just released a title SOCCERnPOOL. I know for a fact that women play
pool and there are women crazy about soccer.
Considering Catherine's viewpoint, that games should be made for Players,
not for genders or specific demographics, I wonder if a Table soccer game
would have mass appeal for the female audience?
I ask this because I know that our team had a passion to push the genre and
make something truly playable. I wonder if women will reallly bend towards a
soccer-pool cross-genre which mainly has appeal to men.
If that is the case then I would believe that women are also interested in
the playablility of a game rather than a specific leaning towards
"women-type" games. And it would resolve any doubts I have about the type of
games we need to make for women.
Kurosh Fallahzadeh
KDF Infotech
www.kdfinfotech.com
>From: Jónas B. Antonsson <jonas at gogogic.com>
>Reply-To: IGDA Casual Games SIG Mailing List <casual_games at igda.org>
>To: "IGDA Casual Games SIG Mailing List" <casual_games at igda.org>
>Subject: RE: [casual_games] Re: Games for women made by women? Date: Wed, 7
>Jun 2006 18:08:24 -0000
>
>Catherine! I think you nailed it with:
>
>"but we remind each other that our priority is making a good game - players
>will want to play a good game no matter who they are! "
>
>This resonates with my personal creational philosophy.
>
>Regards,
>Jónas Antonsson
>COO, Gogogic
>jonas at gogogic.com
>www.gogogic.com
>
>________________________________
>
>From: casual_games-bounces at igda.org on behalf of Catherine Herdlick
>Sent: mið. 7.6.2006 17:29
>To: casual_games at igda.org
>Subject: [casual_games] Re: Games for women made by women?
>
>
>
>Hi All!
>
>I've been watching this list from the sidelines since the beginning.
>
>I'm a woman! I'm a project manager for Gamelab! We've been known to make
>casual games! Women are a supposedly a big chunk of casual game players!
>
>I just managed a game about shopping - we chose that theme NOT because
>"women love to shop," but rather because shopping (and selling) as an
>activity fit with our gameplay mechanics and our collective creative drives
>(we also wanted a narrative departure from our previous titles). Said
>shopping game is actually sort of ironically critical about consumerism.
>Please, don't assume the decision to make a game about shopping was made
>because of the ladies. Yeah women shop. So do men. And kids. And old
>people. And rich people. (just play our game and you'll see!). The game
>is more like working retail than going shopping with my sister.
>
>Gamelab has tons of women working here in all sorts of capacities. "What
>would women like?" does occasionally come up in our meetings, but we remind
>each other that our priority is making a good game - players will want to
>play a good game no matter who they are!
>
>The cool thing about so-called "casual games" is that they appeal to
>PLAYERS. We're designing games for People, not just for our friends. As
>such, what we do can becomes a sort of higher form of design.
>
>Sadly, most of the games out there - in *any* niche - are clones. Clones
>have a limited amount of fun-appeal no matter who they appeal to
>(intentionally or otherwise). The key to a good game is innovation and
>focus on gamePLAY - content, mechanics, etc should follow based on the
>audience as PLAYERS (vs. friends or artificial demographics). Oh, and also
>your team's interests as creative people. You've got to make sure the
>developers are psyched on the game or there won't be any heart and soul in
>the end product - consumers everywhere respond lukewarmly to that.
>
>I guess all of this resonates with the earlier post about making a
>broad-appeal pieces of media. That said, clearly woman-targeted things
>like
>Sex and the City are total guilty pleasures that I would never admit to
>enjoying (oops!). But I also wouldn't invest much time/money into them
>because they offer such a shallow indulgence (like a watery cup of hot
>chocolate from the bodega vs. a creamy mocha from a café - why waste the
>calories).
>
>And HEY!, I'm not all that atypical of a woman even though I'm in the
>software industry. And neither are my female colleagues.
>
>That's my long answer - yes, women do make games for women. But I like to
>consider myself a Project Manager that makes games for discerning, critical
>Players.
>
>Warm Regards,
>Catherine
>
>
>
>Catherine Herdlick * Game Producer * Gamelab
>368 Broadway #210 * New York, NY 10013
>tel: 646.827.6644 * cell: 917.821.3078
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: casual_games-bounces at igda.org [mailto:casual_games-bounces at igda.org]
>On Behalf Of casual_games-request at igda.org
>Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 12:02 PM
>To: casual_games at igda.org
>Subject: Casual_Games Digest, Vol 13, Issue 3
>
>Send Casual_Games mailing list submissions to
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>
>Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Games for women made by women? (Martina Putzki)
> 2. Re: Games for women made by women? (Duncan Gough)
> 3. RE: Games for women made by women? (Jessica Tams (Personal))
> 4. RE: Games for women made by women? (Dustin Clingman)
> 5. Re: Games for women made by women? (Ron)
> 6. Re: Games for women made by women? (Duncan Gough)
> 7. Re: Games for women made by women? (Joe Pantuso)
> 8. Re: Games for women made by women? (Adam Martin)
> 9. RE: Games for women made by women? (Jade Tidy)
> 10. Re: Games for women made by women? (Duncan Gough)
>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Message: 1
>Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 19:01:38 +0200
>From: "Martina Putzki" <martina.putzki at phenomedia.com>
>Subject: [casual_games] Games for women made by women?
>To: <casual_games at igda.org>
>Message-ID:
> <EKEELPAPKCIEKCJDCGOMEENCDEAA.martina.putzki at phenomedia.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>Hello List!
>
>One question (probably asked before if so, my apologies) from a female
>member of the games industry:
>
>Having been part of this industry for 11 years now I have always been
>amazed
>by the small number of women involved in the game development process.
>
>During my past 5 years in the casual games niche I have
>a) learned (and happily so) about the large and growing number of
>women playing casual games
>b) witnessed male colleagues (all ex-full-price-game-makers)
>desperately trying to tailor games especially for the female target
>group.
>Well, regarding the results of their numerous efforts Ill gladly admit to
>sometimes have taken active and fervent part in preventing there be a
>result
>(= game) in the first place. The insights on what some men seem to believe
>women want were actually scary and I hope in no way related to their real
>lives ;-)
>
>Now Im working in marketing, not game design. I certainly do not pretend
>to
>be able to do a better job thinking of cool games. Plus, I have come to
>believe that it truly is infinitely harder to make a small game than a
>big one, and I have a deep respect for the people envisioning them.
>
>But I am definitely wondering, with so many very successful casual games
>out
>on the portals, could it be there are more women involved in the game
>design
>and production part of the casual games sector than in full-price-games?
>You
>probably know that theory: Should women be making the games meant to be
>played by women?
>
>Or has it just been the trial/error and selection and/or luck factors in
>combination with surveys leading to the top-sellers in our field?
>
>How many of you guys have female game designers on their payrolls?
>
>Just curious ;-)
>
>All the best
>Martina
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>Message: 2
>Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 09:58:12 +0100
>From: "Duncan Gough" <duncan at 3rdsense.com>
>Subject: Re: [casual_games] Games for women made by women?
>To: "IGDA Casual Games SIG Mailing List" <casual_games at igda.org>
>Message-ID:
> <71f9ef640606070158i6c462eb5y34a84780a200017c at mail.gmail.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed
>
>On 6/6/06, Martina Putzki <martina.putzki at phenomedia.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hello List!
>
>Hello!
>
><snip>
>
> > b) witnessed male colleagues (all ex-full-price-game-makers)
> > desperately trying to "tailor" games especially for the female target
>group.
> > Well, regarding the results of their numerous efforts I'll gladly admit
>to
> > sometimes have taken active and fervent part in preventing there be a
>result
> > (= game) in the first place. The insights on what some men seem to
>believe
> > women want were actually scary and I hope in no way related to their
>real
> > lives ;-)
>
>Give us a clue then, what games should men be building for women?
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 3
>Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 02:58:29 -0700
>From: "Jessica Tams \(Personal\)" <jessica at ckyco.net>
>Subject: RE: [casual_games] Games for women made by women?
>To: "'IGDA Casual Games SIG Mailing List'" <casual_games at igda.org>
>Message-ID: <00c801c68a18$ed8bfb20$6500a8c0 at GAMEUNIVERSE.COM>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>
>I think you should all just add more pink. I hear girls like pink.
>
>
>Jessica
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: casual_games-bounces at igda.org [mailto:casual_games-bounces at igda.org]
>On Behalf Of Duncan Gough
>Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 1:58 AM
>To: IGDA Casual Games SIG Mailing List
>Subject: Re: [casual_games] Games for women made by women?
>
>On 6/6/06, Martina Putzki <martina.putzki at phenomedia.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hello List!
>
>Hello!
>
><snip>
>
> > b) witnessed male colleagues (all ex-full-price-game-makers)
> > desperately trying to "tailor" games especially for the female target
>group.
> > Well, regarding the results of their numerous efforts I'll gladly admit
>to
> > sometimes have taken active and fervent part in preventing there be a
>result
> > (= game) in the first place. The insights on what some men seem to
>believe
> > women want were actually scary and I hope in no way related to their
>real
> > lives. ;-)
>
>Give us a clue then, what games should men be building for women?
>_______________________________________________
>Casual_Games mailing list
>Casual_Games at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/casual_games
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 4
>Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 08:00:46 -0400
>From: "Dustin Clingman" <dustin at zeitgeistgames.com>
>Subject: RE: [casual_games] Games for women made by women?
>To: "'IGDA Casual Games SIG Mailing List'" <casual_games at igda.org>
>Message-ID: <00e201c68a2a$02bf9f90$01fe0a0a at fullsail.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>Ha! Or increase the cute factor by 5.
>
>Best Regards,
>
>
>
>Dustin
>
>---
>
>Dustin Clingman
>
>President, Zeitgeist Games, Inc.
>
>Phone: 407.376.3695
>
>www.zeitgeistgames.com
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: casual_games-bounces at igda.org [mailto:casual_games-bounces at igda.org]
>On Behalf Of Jessica Tams (Personal)
>Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 5:58 AM
>To: 'IGDA Casual Games SIG Mailing List'
>Subject: RE: [casual_games] Games for women made by women?
>
>
>I think you should all just add more pink. I hear girls like pink.
>
>
>Jessica
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: casual_games-bounces at igda.org [mailto:casual_games-bounces at igda.org]
>On Behalf Of Duncan Gough
>Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 1:58 AM
>To: IGDA Casual Games SIG Mailing List
>Subject: Re: [casual_games] Games for women made by women?
>
>On 6/6/06, Martina Putzki <martina.putzki at phenomedia.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hello List!
>
>Hello!
>
><snip>
>
> > b) witnessed male colleagues (all ex-full-price-game-makers)
> > desperately trying to "tailor" games especially for the female target
>group.
> > Well, regarding the results of their numerous efforts I'll gladly admit
>to
> > sometimes have taken active and fervent part in preventing there be a
>result
> > (= game) in the first place. The insights on what some men seem to
>believe
> > women want were actually scary and I hope in no way related to their
>real
> > lives. ;-)
>
>Give us a clue then, what games should men be building for women?
>_______________________________________________
>Casual_Games mailing list
>Casual_Games at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/casual_games
>
>_______________________________________________
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>Casual_Games at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/casual_games
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 5
>Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 06:59:11 -0700
>From: Ron <lists at rzweb.com>
>Subject: Re: [casual_games] Games for women made by women?
>To: IGDA Casual Games SIG Mailing List <casual_games at igda.org>
>Message-ID: <4486DBAF.4090702 at rzweb.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
>
> > Give us a clue then, what games should men be building for women?
>
>Or, can you point to a casual game that is currently out there that has
>all the right elements?
>
>I've been dealing with this question since I started making games in
>1985. It's always been a bunch of men (or boys!) trying to make games
>that appeal to women. But, I've known a lot of women game designers and
>programmers that don't do much better. I've sat in design meetings
>where the female game designer runs through the same list of stereotypes
>(shopping!) that the guys do. Is there such a thing as a game for
>women? A movie? A TV Show? A book?
>
>While there are Movies, Books and TV Shows that have a high "female
>demographic", I suspect that the truly successful ones have a much
>broader appeal.
>
>
>Ron
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 6
>Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 15:36:03 +0100
>From: "Duncan Gough" <duncan at 3rdsense.com>
>Subject: Re: [casual_games] Games for women made by women?
>To: "IGDA Casual Games SIG Mailing List" <casual_games at igda.org>
>Message-ID:
> <71f9ef640606070736l1010175at888d7d4f43a76b76 at mail.gmail.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
>Great point.
>
>If I was to suggest that the Nintendo DS game Brain Age was a great
>example of a casual game for women, I'd expect a slap in the face in
>return.
>
>Pink n' fluffy might be all it takes, but I'd be interested in finding
>out which games appealed to women without being patronising.
>
>On 6/7/06, Ron <lists at rzweb.com> wrote:
> > > Give us a clue then, what games should men be building for women?
> >
> > Or, can you point to a casual game that is currently out there that has
> > all the right elements?
> >
> > I've been dealing with this question since I started making games in
> > 1985. It's always been a bunch of men (or boys!) trying to make games
> > that appeal to women. But, I've known a lot of women game designers and
> > programmers that don't do much better. I've sat in design meetings
> > where the female game designer runs through the same list of stereotypes
> > (shopping!) that the guys do. Is there such a thing as a game for
> > women? A movie? A TV Show? A book?
> >
> > While there are Movies, Books and TV Shows that have a high "female
> > demographic", I suspect that the truly successful ones have a much
> > broader appeal.
> >
> >
> > Ron
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Casual_Games mailing list
> > Casual_Games at igda.org
> > http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/casual_games
> >
>
>
>--
>Duncan Gough 3RD sense UK Ltd
>Lead Developer Level 1, Fitzroy House
>m +44 (0) 7740 302 248 11 Chenies Street
>p +44 (0) 20 7250 4744 London WC1E 7EY
>f +44 (0) 20 7250 4746 www.3rdsense.com
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 7
>Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 10:41:26 -0400
>From: "Joe Pantuso" <jpantuso at traygames.com>
>Subject: Re: [casual_games] Games for women made by women?
>To: "IGDA Casual Games SIG Mailing List" <casual_games at igda.org>
>Message-ID:
> <dad449010606070741o34746c5cvd0108b9cf8e4b9c0 at mail.gmail.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> >While there are Movies, Books and TV Shows that have a high "female
> >demographic", I suspect that the truly successful ones have a much
> >broader appeal.
>
>This is dead-on. It seems to me that making a "game that will appeal to
>women" is an impossible task. It implies a sort of prejudicial thinking
>that is unrealistic and possibly a fools errand too.
>
>In response to the original question, we have two game designers who are
>women. I'm not entirely sure it makes a difference at the end of the day,
>as women who enter the field of software development in general seem a bit
>atypical, which is broadly the case in male dominated fields. Clearly
>things are improving though, just looking at the crowd at CGDC now vs. 10
>years ago and it is obvious.
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>Message: 8
>Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 15:41:25 +0100
>From: Adam Martin <adam at mindcandydesign.com>
>Subject: Re: [casual_games] Games for women made by women?
>To: IGDA Casual Games SIG Mailing List <casual_games at igda.org>
>Message-ID: <4486E595.60705 at mindcandydesign.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
>
>Duncan Gough wrote:
>
> > Great point.
> >
> > If I was to suggest that the Nintendo DS game Brain Age was a great
> > example of a casual game for women, I'd expect a slap in the face in
> > return.
>
>Damn. You beat me to it :P.
>
>But mainly because it seems to appeal to non-gamers, which I suspect
>mostly masks any sex bias.
>
>--
>Adam Martin
>CTO, Mind Candy Ltd
>
>tel: 0207 501 1904 - fax: 0207 501 1919
>www.perplexcity.com - www.mindcandydesign.com
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 9
>Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 16:04:11 +0100
>From: "Jade Tidy" <jade at futurlab.co.uk>
>Subject: RE: [casual_games] Games for women made by women?
>To: "'IGDA Casual Games SIG Mailing List'" <casual_games at igda.org>
>Message-ID: <006a01c68a43$a5371410$0400a8c0 at jade>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>There was a really good article in PC gamer last year about this subject
>which I could really relate to as a female gamer (I can dig out the issue
>no. if anyone's interested).
>
>In my personal experience there is a great difference to what games I
>prefer
>to what games my boyfriend would pick as his favourites. Then again, we
>have
>quite a few crossovers.
>
>Men and women's brains do function differently, which I think has an effect
>on which games successfully attract women players (the article touches on
>this).
>
>I don't generally spend too much of my personal time playing casual games,
>although I'm starting to get hooked on them more as I've got my 360 and
>enjoy the arcade games (e.g. Hexic). My fav games over the past couple of
>years have been Fable, Jade Empire, WOW, Guitar Hero, Burnout (various), We
>Love Katamari, Splinter Cell...
>
>As you can tell I'm not a great fan of shoot 'em up games but I've played
>the Lost Planet demo and I really want to get it!
>
>HTH
>
>Jade
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 10
>Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 16:22:19 +0100
>From: "Duncan Gough" <duncan at 3rdsense.com>
>Subject: Re: [casual_games] Games for women made by women?
>To: "IGDA Casual Games SIG Mailing List" <casual_games at igda.org>
>Message-ID:
> <71f9ef640606070822i53c0c10du585c1ed69156376f at mail.gmail.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
>On 6/7/06, Joe Pantuso <jpantuso at traygames.com> wrote:
> >
> > >While there are Movies, Books and TV Shows that have a high "female
> > >demographic", I suspect that the truly successful ones have a much
> > >broader appeal.
> >
> >
> > This is dead-on. It seems to me that making a "game that will appeal to
> > women" is an impossible task. It implies a sort of prejudicial thinking
> > that is unrealistic and possibly a fools errand too.
>
>It's about mainstream appeal then - appealing to a much bigger
>audience so that proportionally more women are involved in playing.
>Which, in my head, ties in to what was being suggested on Wonderland a
>whlie ago:
>
>http://crystaltips.typepad.com/wonderland/2005/06/the_thing_about.html
>
>
>------------------------------
>
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