[casual_games] Re: Games for women made by women?
k f
mamaji4 at hotmail.com
Fri Jun 9 04:28:59 EDT 2006
I think the problem definition is a bit skewed. We shouldn't be asking "What
games do women like?"
but instead "What are the games that women DON'T like?",and that should
answer the first question.
Let me start with my conribution to this elusive question:
1) Women do not like games with acts of mindless violence.
2) ....
Feel free to add to the above list.
By the end of the day we should have a concise, precise idea of the games
that women like. Then we can all start with our Design documents because we
will finally have the answer to the Casual game audience dilemma.
Kurosh Fallahzadeh
KDF Infotech
www.kdfinfotech.com
>From: Jónas B. Antonsson <jonas at gogogic.com>
>Reply-To: IGDA Casual Games SIG Mailing List <casual_games at igda.org>
>To: "IGDA Casual Games SIG Mailing List" <casual_games at igda.org>
>Subject: RE: [casual_games] Re: Games for women made by women? Date: Wed, 7
>Jun 2006 18:08:24 -0000
>
>Catherine! I think you nailed it with:
>
>"but we remind each other that our priority is making a good game - players
>will want to play a good game no matter who they are! "
>
>This resonates with my personal creational philosophy.
>
>Regards,
>Jónas Antonsson
>COO, Gogogic
>jonas at gogogic.com
>www.gogogic.com
>
>________________________________
>
>From: casual_games-bounces at igda.org on behalf of Catherine Herdlick
>Sent: mið. 7.6.2006 17:29
>To: casual_games at igda.org
>Subject: [casual_games] Re: Games for women made by women?
>
>
>
>Hi All!
>
>I've been watching this list from the sidelines since the beginning.
>
>I'm a woman! I'm a project manager for Gamelab! We've been known to make
>casual games! Women are a supposedly a big chunk of casual game players!
>
>I just managed a game about shopping - we chose that theme NOT because
>"women love to shop," but rather because shopping (and selling) as an
>activity fit with our gameplay mechanics and our collective creative drives
>(we also wanted a narrative departure from our previous titles). Said
>shopping game is actually sort of ironically critical about consumerism.
>Please, don't assume the decision to make a game about shopping was made
>because of the ladies. Yeah women shop. So do men. And kids. And old
>people. And rich people. (just play our game and you'll see!). The game
>is more like working retail than going shopping with my sister.
>
>Gamelab has tons of women working here in all sorts of capacities. "What
>would women like?" does occasionally come up in our meetings, but we remind
>each other that our priority is making a good game - players will want to
>play a good game no matter who they are!
>
>The cool thing about so-called "casual games" is that they appeal to
>PLAYERS. We're designing games for People, not just for our friends. As
>such, what we do can becomes a sort of higher form of design.
>
>Sadly, most of the games out there - in *any* niche - are clones. Clones
>have a limited amount of fun-appeal no matter who they appeal to
>(intentionally or otherwise). The key to a good game is innovation and
>focus on gamePLAY - content, mechanics, etc should follow based on the
>audience as PLAYERS (vs. friends or artificial demographics). Oh, and also
>your team's interests as creative people. You've got to make sure the
>developers are psyched on the game or there won't be any heart and soul in
>the end product - consumers everywhere respond lukewarmly to that.
>
>I guess all of this resonates with the earlier post about making a
>broad-appeal pieces of media. That said, clearly woman-targeted things
>like
>Sex and the City are total guilty pleasures that I would never admit to
>enjoying (oops!). But I also wouldn't invest much time/money into them
>because they offer such a shallow indulgence (like a watery cup of hot
>chocolate from the bodega vs. a creamy mocha from a café - why waste the
>calories).
>
>And HEY!, I'm not all that atypical of a woman even though I'm in the
>software industry. And neither are my female colleagues.
>
>That's my long answer - yes, women do make games for women. But I like to
>consider myself a Project Manager that makes games for discerning, critical
>Players.
>
>Warm Regards,
>Catherine
>
>
>
>Catherine Herdlick * Game Producer * Gamelab
>368 Broadway #210 * New York, NY 10013
>tel: 646.827.6644 * cell: 917.821.3078
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: casual_games-bounces at igda.org [mailto:casual_games-bounces at igda.org]
>On Behalf Of casual_games-request at igda.org
>Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 12:02 PM
>To: casual_games at igda.org
>Subject: Casual_Games Digest, Vol 13, Issue 3
>
>Send Casual_Games mailing list submissions to
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>
>Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Games for women made by women? (Martina Putzki)
> 2. Re: Games for women made by women? (Duncan Gough)
> 3. RE: Games for women made by women? (Jessica Tams (Personal))
> 4. RE: Games for women made by women? (Dustin Clingman)
> 5. Re: Games for women made by women? (Ron)
> 6. Re: Games for women made by women? (Duncan Gough)
> 7. Re: Games for women made by women? (Joe Pantuso)
> 8. Re: Games for women made by women? (Adam Martin)
> 9. RE: Games for women made by women? (Jade Tidy)
> 10. Re: Games for women made by women? (Duncan Gough)
>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Message: 1
>Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2006 19:01:38 +0200
>From: "Martina Putzki" <martina.putzki at phenomedia.com>
>Subject: [casual_games] Games for women made by women?
>To: <casual_games at igda.org>
>Message-ID:
> <EKEELPAPKCIEKCJDCGOMEENCDEAA.martina.putzki at phenomedia.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>Hello List!
>
>One question (probably asked before if so, my apologies) from a female
>member of the games industry:
>
>Having been part of this industry for 11 years now I have always been
>amazed
>by the small number of women involved in the game development process.
>
>During my past 5 years in the casual games niche I have
>a) learned (and happily so) about the large and growing number of
>women playing casual games
>b) witnessed male colleagues (all ex-full-price-game-makers)
>desperately trying to tailor games especially for the female target
>group.
>Well, regarding the results of their numerous efforts Ill gladly admit to
>sometimes have taken active and fervent part in preventing there be a
>result
>(= game) in the first place. The insights on what some men seem to believe
>women want were actually scary and I hope in no way related to their real
>lives ;-)
>
>Now Im working in marketing, not game design. I certainly do not pretend
>to
>be able to do a better job thinking of cool games. Plus, I have come to
>believe that it truly is infinitely harder to make a small game than a
>big one, and I have a deep respect for the people envisioning them.
>
>But I am definitely wondering, with so many very successful casual games
>out
>on the portals, could it be there are more women involved in the game
>design
>and production part of the casual games sector than in full-price-games?
>You
>probably know that theory: Should women be making the games meant to be
>played by women?
>
>Or has it just been the trial/error and selection and/or luck factors in
>combination with surveys leading to the top-sellers in our field?
>
>How many of you guys have female game designers on their payrolls?
>
>Just curious ;-)
>
>All the best
>Martina
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>Message: 2
>Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 09:58:12 +0100
>From: "Duncan Gough" <duncan at 3rdsense.com>
>Subject: Re: [casual_games] Games for women made by women?
>To: "IGDA Casual Games SIG Mailing List" <casual_games at igda.org>
>Message-ID:
> <71f9ef640606070158i6c462eb5y34a84780a200017c at mail.gmail.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed
>
>On 6/6/06, Martina Putzki <martina.putzki at phenomedia.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hello List!
>
>Hello!
>
><snip>
>
> > b) witnessed male colleagues (all ex-full-price-game-makers)
> > desperately trying to "tailor" games especially for the female target
>group.
> > Well, regarding the results of their numerous efforts I'll gladly admit
>to
> > sometimes have taken active and fervent part in preventing there be a
>result
> > (= game) in the first place. The insights on what some men seem to
>believe
> > women want were actually scary and I hope in no way related to their
>real
> > lives ;-)
>
>Give us a clue then, what games should men be building for women?
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 3
>Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 02:58:29 -0700
>From: "Jessica Tams \(Personal\)" <jessica at ckyco.net>
>Subject: RE: [casual_games] Games for women made by women?
>To: "'IGDA Casual Games SIG Mailing List'" <casual_games at igda.org>
>Message-ID: <00c801c68a18$ed8bfb20$6500a8c0 at GAMEUNIVERSE.COM>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>
>I think you should all just add more pink. I hear girls like pink.
>
>
>Jessica
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: casual_games-bounces at igda.org [mailto:casual_games-bounces at igda.org]
>On Behalf Of Duncan Gough
>Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 1:58 AM
>To: IGDA Casual Games SIG Mailing List
>Subject: Re: [casual_games] Games for women made by women?
>
>On 6/6/06, Martina Putzki <martina.putzki at phenomedia.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hello List!
>
>Hello!
>
><snip>
>
> > b) witnessed male colleagues (all ex-full-price-game-makers)
> > desperately trying to "tailor" games especially for the female target
>group.
> > Well, regarding the results of their numerous efforts I'll gladly admit
>to
> > sometimes have taken active and fervent part in preventing there be a
>result
> > (= game) in the first place. The insights on what some men seem to
>believe
> > women want were actually scary and I hope in no way related to their
>real
> > lives. ;-)
>
>Give us a clue then, what games should men be building for women?
>_______________________________________________
>Casual_Games mailing list
>Casual_Games at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/casual_games
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 4
>Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 08:00:46 -0400
>From: "Dustin Clingman" <dustin at zeitgeistgames.com>
>Subject: RE: [casual_games] Games for women made by women?
>To: "'IGDA Casual Games SIG Mailing List'" <casual_games at igda.org>
>Message-ID: <00e201c68a2a$02bf9f90$01fe0a0a at fullsail.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>Ha! Or increase the cute factor by 5.
>
>Best Regards,
>
>
>
>Dustin
>
>---
>
>Dustin Clingman
>
>President, Zeitgeist Games, Inc.
>
>Phone: 407.376.3695
>
>www.zeitgeistgames.com
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: casual_games-bounces at igda.org [mailto:casual_games-bounces at igda.org]
>On Behalf Of Jessica Tams (Personal)
>Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 5:58 AM
>To: 'IGDA Casual Games SIG Mailing List'
>Subject: RE: [casual_games] Games for women made by women?
>
>
>I think you should all just add more pink. I hear girls like pink.
>
>
>Jessica
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: casual_games-bounces at igda.org [mailto:casual_games-bounces at igda.org]
>On Behalf Of Duncan Gough
>Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 1:58 AM
>To: IGDA Casual Games SIG Mailing List
>Subject: Re: [casual_games] Games for women made by women?
>
>On 6/6/06, Martina Putzki <martina.putzki at phenomedia.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hello List!
>
>Hello!
>
><snip>
>
> > b) witnessed male colleagues (all ex-full-price-game-makers)
> > desperately trying to "tailor" games especially for the female target
>group.
> > Well, regarding the results of their numerous efforts I'll gladly admit
>to
> > sometimes have taken active and fervent part in preventing there be a
>result
> > (= game) in the first place. The insights on what some men seem to
>believe
> > women want were actually scary and I hope in no way related to their
>real
> > lives. ;-)
>
>Give us a clue then, what games should men be building for women?
>_______________________________________________
>Casual_Games mailing list
>Casual_Games at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/casual_games
>
>_______________________________________________
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>Casual_Games at igda.org
>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/casual_games
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 5
>Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 06:59:11 -0700
>From: Ron <lists at rzweb.com>
>Subject: Re: [casual_games] Games for women made by women?
>To: IGDA Casual Games SIG Mailing List <casual_games at igda.org>
>Message-ID: <4486DBAF.4090702 at rzweb.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
>
> > Give us a clue then, what games should men be building for women?
>
>Or, can you point to a casual game that is currently out there that has
>all the right elements?
>
>I've been dealing with this question since I started making games in
>1985. It's always been a bunch of men (or boys!) trying to make games
>that appeal to women. But, I've known a lot of women game designers and
>programmers that don't do much better. I've sat in design meetings
>where the female game designer runs through the same list of stereotypes
>(shopping!) that the guys do. Is there such a thing as a game for
>women? A movie? A TV Show? A book?
>
>While there are Movies, Books and TV Shows that have a high "female
>demographic", I suspect that the truly successful ones have a much
>broader appeal.
>
>
>Ron
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 6
>Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 15:36:03 +0100
>From: "Duncan Gough" <duncan at 3rdsense.com>
>Subject: Re: [casual_games] Games for women made by women?
>To: "IGDA Casual Games SIG Mailing List" <casual_games at igda.org>
>Message-ID:
> <71f9ef640606070736l1010175at888d7d4f43a76b76 at mail.gmail.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
>Great point.
>
>If I was to suggest that the Nintendo DS game Brain Age was a great
>example of a casual game for women, I'd expect a slap in the face in
>return.
>
>Pink n' fluffy might be all it takes, but I'd be interested in finding
>out which games appealed to women without being patronising.
>
>On 6/7/06, Ron <lists at rzweb.com> wrote:
> > > Give us a clue then, what games should men be building for women?
> >
> > Or, can you point to a casual game that is currently out there that has
> > all the right elements?
> >
> > I've been dealing with this question since I started making games in
> > 1985. It's always been a bunch of men (or boys!) trying to make games
> > that appeal to women. But, I've known a lot of women game designers and
> > programmers that don't do much better. I've sat in design meetings
> > where the female game designer runs through the same list of stereotypes
> > (shopping!) that the guys do. Is there such a thing as a game for
> > women? A movie? A TV Show? A book?
> >
> > While there are Movies, Books and TV Shows that have a high "female
> > demographic", I suspect that the truly successful ones have a much
> > broader appeal.
> >
> >
> > Ron
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Casual_Games mailing list
> > Casual_Games at igda.org
> > http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/casual_games
> >
>
>
>--
>Duncan Gough 3RD sense UK Ltd
>Lead Developer Level 1, Fitzroy House
>m +44 (0) 7740 302 248 11 Chenies Street
>p +44 (0) 20 7250 4744 London WC1E 7EY
>f +44 (0) 20 7250 4746 www.3rdsense.com
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 7
>Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 10:41:26 -0400
>From: "Joe Pantuso" <jpantuso at traygames.com>
>Subject: Re: [casual_games] Games for women made by women?
>To: "IGDA Casual Games SIG Mailing List" <casual_games at igda.org>
>Message-ID:
> <dad449010606070741o34746c5cvd0108b9cf8e4b9c0 at mail.gmail.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> >While there are Movies, Books and TV Shows that have a high "female
> >demographic", I suspect that the truly successful ones have a much
> >broader appeal.
>
>This is dead-on. It seems to me that making a "game that will appeal to
>women" is an impossible task. It implies a sort of prejudicial thinking
>that is unrealistic and possibly a fools errand too.
>
>In response to the original question, we have two game designers who are
>women. I'm not entirely sure it makes a difference at the end of the day,
>as women who enter the field of software development in general seem a bit
>atypical, which is broadly the case in male dominated fields. Clearly
>things are improving though, just looking at the crowd at CGDC now vs. 10
>years ago and it is obvious.
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>Message: 8
>Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 15:41:25 +0100
>From: Adam Martin <adam at mindcandydesign.com>
>Subject: Re: [casual_games] Games for women made by women?
>To: IGDA Casual Games SIG Mailing List <casual_games at igda.org>
>Message-ID: <4486E595.60705 at mindcandydesign.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
>
>Duncan Gough wrote:
>
> > Great point.
> >
> > If I was to suggest that the Nintendo DS game Brain Age was a great
> > example of a casual game for women, I'd expect a slap in the face in
> > return.
>
>Damn. You beat me to it :P.
>
>But mainly because it seems to appeal to non-gamers, which I suspect
>mostly masks any sex bias.
>
>--
>Adam Martin
>CTO, Mind Candy Ltd
>
>tel: 0207 501 1904 - fax: 0207 501 1919
>www.perplexcity.com - www.mindcandydesign.com
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 9
>Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 16:04:11 +0100
>From: "Jade Tidy" <jade at futurlab.co.uk>
>Subject: RE: [casual_games] Games for women made by women?
>To: "'IGDA Casual Games SIG Mailing List'" <casual_games at igda.org>
>Message-ID: <006a01c68a43$a5371410$0400a8c0 at jade>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>There was a really good article in PC gamer last year about this subject
>which I could really relate to as a female gamer (I can dig out the issue
>no. if anyone's interested).
>
>In my personal experience there is a great difference to what games I
>prefer
>to what games my boyfriend would pick as his favourites. Then again, we
>have
>quite a few crossovers.
>
>Men and women's brains do function differently, which I think has an effect
>on which games successfully attract women players (the article touches on
>this).
>
>I don't generally spend too much of my personal time playing casual games,
>although I'm starting to get hooked on them more as I've got my 360 and
>enjoy the arcade games (e.g. Hexic). My fav games over the past couple of
>years have been Fable, Jade Empire, WOW, Guitar Hero, Burnout (various), We
>Love Katamari, Splinter Cell...
>
>As you can tell I'm not a great fan of shoot 'em up games but I've played
>the Lost Planet demo and I really want to get it!
>
>HTH
>
>Jade
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 10
>Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 16:22:19 +0100
>From: "Duncan Gough" <duncan at 3rdsense.com>
>Subject: Re: [casual_games] Games for women made by women?
>To: "IGDA Casual Games SIG Mailing List" <casual_games at igda.org>
>Message-ID:
> <71f9ef640606070822i53c0c10du585c1ed69156376f at mail.gmail.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
>On 6/7/06, Joe Pantuso <jpantuso at traygames.com> wrote:
> >
> > >While there are Movies, Books and TV Shows that have a high "female
> > >demographic", I suspect that the truly successful ones have a much
> > >broader appeal.
> >
> >
> > This is dead-on. It seems to me that making a "game that will appeal to
> > women" is an impossible task. It implies a sort of prejudicial thinking
> > that is unrealistic and possibly a fools errand too.
>
>It's about mainstream appeal then - appealing to a much bigger
>audience so that proportionally more women are involved in playing.
>Which, in my head, ties in to what was being suggested on Wonderland a
>whlie ago:
>
>http://crystaltips.typepad.com/wonderland/2005/06/the_thing_about.html
>
>
>------------------------------
>
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