[casual_games] Use of keyboard on casual games

[oscar oscar]

I decline to name names... ;)

For self-preservation and a couple of NDAs I've had to sign in days of yore.


But every "industry" plays "follow the leader". As trends are shaped by
industry "forerunners", you always see specific behaviors:

Someone establishes a new "paradigm"... be it a mechanism/gameplay
functionality... heck, even an art-style.

- Indie (and pro) Game Devs  want to "one up" a successful mechanism
- Financiers and Publishers who's JOB it is to track trends... Greenlighting
clones, and letting devs know that this week... the flavor everyone lusts
after is... blah blah blah.

Some lunatic comes up with a new widget, everyone falls in love, they
improve the widget... then $ dictates that if you're not in the widget biz,
you'll get no backing.

Umm, look at Diner Dash. (hey Zimm!) ^_^

How many clones did that spawn?

More than Enough.

If you're an Artist... then maybe you can afford to not worry about market
trends... I fully accept the fact that as a Professional Designer... it is
IMPERATIVE to pay attention to what is working out there.

But I can't wrap my head or my heart around putzing up a users interface
because someone wrote "no right clicks... grandmas don't understand right
clicks".

I came up with an atari2600 and a c64. All we had were cursor keys,
8-directional joysticks and a button...

Unless a boatload of professional designers, scientists, interface
architects and voodoo priests TIE ME DOWN and force me to accept that the
only truly viable interface is a 2-3 button mouse... but I can't use the
RIGHT MOUSE BUTTON...

Then I insist that the rules are arbitrary and created primarily by people
who want to reduce an interface to improve viral dissemination and immediate
understanding of user interaction.

But I'm probably wrong. ;)

oscar


On 5/30/07, Juan Gril <juangril at jojugames.com> wrote:

>

> Interesting. Do you base this assumption based on the conversations you

> have had with major publishers and distributors?

>

> You are right on one thing though: follow your vision, it's the only way

> to break the mold. Of course, we are not always successful at it. But it is

> always worth trying.

>

> Cheers,

>

> Juan

>

>

> On 5/30/07, oscar oscar <oscar.oscar.oscar at gmail.com> wrote:

> >

> > In my experience... and mind you... I've only been doing as long as I

> > have been doing this... ;)

> >

> > Publishers and Distributors are no MORE or LESS  insightful than Movie

> > Producers...

> >

> > And if you are aware of the crap that gets

> > multimillion-dollar-backing... be in on the Big Screen or in a 7-minute

> > Downloadable... then you know that the people who control the purse strings,

> > more often than not, chase TRENDS... not SATISFACTORY User Experiences.

> >

> > Further, many of the cats and kittens who say "so it is written, so

> > shall it be" have neither written NOR read anything of relevance to the

> > matters at hand.

> >

> > They just have CASH, they have their limited successes and failures...

> > and based on the last 13 months of "this game did this much biz" they

> > determine that your idea is SHITE or is GOLD.

> >

> > You can skew usage figures and Focus Groups to say whatever you deem

> > necessary.

> >

> > "THEY" are not always interested in profound, engaging, or even

> > intuitive "Player Experiences"

> >

> > They want what they perceive to be immediate, pervasive and viral

> > dissemination of LOWEST COMMON DENOMINATOR  experience

> >

> > Interface Follows Design. And Design Follows Vision.

> >

> > If Vision deems "Unique" interface, then Design should the Vision.

> >

> > Of course, my rant has NOTHING to do with the economics of getting some

> > quick-clone of "pick-three" or "sudoku" on crack on the top ten list of some

> > nebulous "usage and ratings portal".

> >

> > oscar

> > McDonalds makes

> > more money off their

> > Real Estate than they do

> > their food... because the

> > Real Estate is worth

> > Something... ;)

> >

> > On 5/30/07, Juan Gril <juangril at jojugames.com> wrote:

> > >

> > > Pedro, that's why I'm recommending we start talking about "best

> > > practices" instead of rules. Your example of Super Granny 3 is quite valid

> > > (although you are reading the game-sales-charts data in a wrong way).

> > >

> > > Your comment on:

> > > "I will never like green strawberries if I never taste them, right?

> > > Yet they might be better that the red ones…"

> > >

> > > Is wrong because you are making an assumption that it has been an

> > > arbitrary decision, when it has not, as Publishers and Distributors make

> > > focus groups and user tests every week with real users, and they have

> > > already proved that most people who buy downloadable games have difficulty

> > > playing a game with a keyboard.

> > >

> > > And I'm going to give you my opinion after having watched many user

> > > tests why downloadable game buyers are having difficulty with the keyboard.

> > > Most downloadable games players (based on, for example, Popcap's survey of

> > > last year) have never been exposed to PC videogames or console games. The

> > > use of buttons (in a keyboard or in a gamepad) is completely foreign to

> > > them. But they use the mouse in the computers they use at work, so they are

> > > familiar with that form of interaction between computers and them.

> > >

> > > In web games sites like Miniclip or Addicting Games or Kongregate, you

> > > have a lot of people like college students, male office workers, and kids

> > > who all have played videogames. So use the cursor keys to play a game is

> > > something more natural to them.

> > >

> > > When I was saying before to design the game for the right channel,

> > > what I was saying is this: if you are trying to make money on downloadable

> > > games, it's a "best practice" if you design a game that it's going to use

> > > the mouse to be controlled. And if you have a game that's keyboard

> > > controlled, you may want to think about distributing it on another channel,

> > > as it may do better there.

> > >

> > > And no one stops you for putting keyboard control as an option on any

> > > casual game anyway, so have fun with it.

> > >

> > > Please keep in mind that I'm trying to avoid the use of the word

> > > "rules" as they can always be broken.

> > >

> > > Cheers,

> > >

> > > Juan

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > On 5/30/07, Pedro Honório Silva < pedro.silva at ignite-games.com> wrote:

> > > >

> > > >  Interesting. How do you think Publishers/Distributor have come up

> > > > to that conclusion that games should only use mouse control. Do you think it

> > > > has been an arbitrary decision then?

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Of course not.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > How come is it hard for you to believe that Publishers and

> > > > Distributors, who run focus groups every week with real users (those who pay

> > > > for the games we make) are wrong on that particular aspect?

> > > >

> > > >  I did not say that they were wrong. I said that I believe that it

> > > > isn't 100% assured that making a game that uses the keyboard will result in

> > > > a total failure. And there are games out there that have been successful and

> > > > use the keyboard. I'm thinking of Super Granny 3 who, according to casual

> > > > games charts, has been +200 days on the top10 selling games, for instance.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Of course, we are always talking about the downloadable games

> > > > audience. Like I said before, keyboard control is doing well in web games.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Ok. Then why wouldn't it do well on the downloadable audience? Is it

> > > > a problem of the audience or a problem of the games they have to play? Or

> > > > something else?

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Notice that I'm not against mouse only games. We're currently

> > > > developing one game that has a mouse only input. What I'm a bit against is

> > > > the fact that people may have no choice.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > I will never like green strawberries if I never taste them, right?

> > > > Yet they might be better that the red ones…

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > *Pedro Honório Silva*

> > > >

> > > > *Chief Financial Officer*

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > *Ignite Games*

> > > >

> > > > Rua Cova da Moura, nº 2 - 2º Dto.

> > > >

> > > > 1350-117 Lisboa, Portugal

> > > >

> > > > T: +351 212 427 695 - M: +351 933 465 985

> > > >

> > > > pedro.silva at ignite-games.com

> > > >

> > > > www.ignite-games.com

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > *From:* casual_games-bounces at igda.org [mailto:

> > > > casual_games-bounces at igda.org] *On Behalf Of *Juan Gril

> > > > *Sent:* quarta-feira, 30 de Maio de 2007 18:49

> > > > *To:* IGDA Casual Games SIG Mailing List

> > > > *Subject:* Re: [casual_games] Use of keyboard on casual games

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Interesting. How do you think Publishers/Distributor have come up to

> > > > that conclusion that games should only use mouse control. Do you think it

> > > > has been an arbitrary decision then?

> > > >

> > > > How come is it hard for you to believe that Publishers and

> > > > Distributors, who run focus groups every week with real users (those who pay

> > > > for the games we make) are wrong on that particular aspect?

> > > >

> > > > Of course, we are always talking about the downloadable games

> > > > audience. Like I said before, keyboard control is doing well in web games.

> > > >

> > > > Juan

> > > >

> > > >  On 5/30/07, *Pedro Honório Silva* <pedro.silva at ignite-games.com>

> > > > wrote:

> > > >

> > > > I totally agree with Oscar here.

> > > >

> > > > I know that Publishers/Distributors tend to "only bet on the winning

> > > > horse", which include really simple (yet amusing) games for their audience.

> > > > Therefore the independent game developer companies tend to develop games

> > > > that they often don't really enjoy doing just to satisfy the market's

> > > > apparent desires.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > However, we at Ignite believe that an increasing number of people is

> > > > getting more interested on different kinds of games, less simple, yet still

> > > > amusing and entertaining. And many of those games have the need to use the

> > > > keyboard or even a mixture of mouse and keyboard.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Telling me that the 40 year old woman that plays casual games

> > > > doesn't know how to play a game using the keyboard is kind of hard to

> > > > believe. Even more when several good (and successful) games out there use

> > > > the keyboard as their primary input.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > What I feel is that, as Oscar said, being a design issue, it should

> > > > be left to the game designer to decide what way is better to play the game.

> > > > Imposing these type of rules will only accomplish two things: independent

> > > > game developers continue to develop games they don't like just to make some

> > > > cash cows; at some point in time we'll have a subset of the casual market

> > > > where we'll have "not-so-casual" games (pc downloadable) for different

> > > > audiences (which actually will be the same people looking for different

> > > > games).

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Honestly, such rules is clearly Publishers/Distributors rules and

> > > > not game developers'. It will most likely level down the quality and variety

> > > > of the games in the casual space. Leaving little space for innovation and

> > > > new forms of gameplay. Or even worse, it's a huge investment on

> > > > "keep-doing-clones" strategy that many game developers follow.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Just my 2 cents…

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > *Pedro Honório Silva*

> > > >

> > > > *Chief Financial Officer*

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > *Ignite Games*

> > > >

> > > > Rua Cova da Moura, nº 2 - 2º Dto.

> > > >

> > > > 1350-117 Lisboa, Portugal

> > > >

> > > > T: +351 212 427 695 - M: +351 933 465 985

> > > >

> > > > pedro.silva at ignite-games.com

> > > >

> > > > www.ignite-games.com

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > *From:* casual_games-bounces at igda.org [mailto:

> > > > casual_games-bounces at igda.org] *On Behalf Of *oscar oscar

> > > > *Sent:* quarta-feira, 30 de Maio de 2007 18:22

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > *To:* IGDA Casual Games SIG Mailing List

> > > > *Subject:* Re: [casual_games] Use of keyboard on casual games

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > There are NO  established rules that dictate a USER INTERFACE.

> > > >

> > > > Nor SHOULD there be.

> > > >

> > > > IT IS a conversation between the game DESIGNER and the game

> > > > PLAYER.... and that palaver is moderated by the DESIGN and INTERFACE...

> > > > ANYONE who throws out RULES about how "This is GOOD" and "That is BAD" is

> > > > taking steps to reduce the language by which we converse with those who

> > > > would join us in the interaction.

> > > >

> > > > A designer would be wise to include as many viable options to join

> > > > that conversation in the design phase...

> > > >

> > > > Design Permitting of course.

> > > >

> > > > oscar

> > > >

> > > > On 5/30/07, *Andy Fitter* <andy at morpheme.co.uk> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > I think either can be acceptable, many games only real work well

> > > > with one and not the other. What your design should avoid, as it's one of

> > > > the most painful experiences ever for me, is a game that is 98% mouse driven

> > > > but then requires you to press space to exit a menu screen for example, or

> > > > entirely cursor key driven but requires you to click a button with the mouse

> > > > to start each new level etc.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Forcing the user to un-intuitively switch input methods to continue

> > > > is has to be one of the worst design 'features' you see in casual games, and

> > > > you see it far too often.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Andy.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > *From:* casual_games-bounces at igda.org [mailto:

> > > > casual_games-bounces at igda.org] *On Behalf Of *Juan Gril

> > > > *Sent:* 30 May 2007 15:50

> > > > *To:* IGDA Casual Games SIG Mailing List

> > > > *Subject:* Re: [casual_games] Use of keyboard on casual games

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Keyboard control is well accepted on web games (because of their

> > > > audience), although i find that even those web games that use mouse control

> > > > have a better acceptance.

> > > >

> > > > You are absolutely right that it is a design decision, so it is

> > > > important to design the game for the right channel.

> > > >

> > > > Cheers,

> > > >

> > > > Juan

> > > >

> > > > On 5/30/07, *Jose Marin* <jose_marin2 at yahoo.com.br> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Hi.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > This question could look a little silly, but I think it's very

> > > > important:

> > > >

> > > > Every casual game must allow the user control the game via mouse, or

> > > > it's ok to use the keyboard to that?

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > It's a design decision, because some kinds of games could be more

> > > > playable using the keyboard.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > What do you think about this?

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Regards

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Jose

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > __________________________________________________

> > > > Fale com seus amigos de graça com o novo Yahoo! Messenger

> > > > http://br.messenger.yahoo.com/

> > > >

> > > >

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> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Checked by AVG.

> > > > Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.3/824 - Release Date:

> > > > 29/05/2007 13:01

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Morpheme Game Studios, Morpheme Wireless and Morpheme

> > > > are trading names of Eidos Interactive Limited whose registered

> > > > office is

> > > > 1 Hartfield Road, London SW19 3RU

> > > > Company number: 01804186

> > > >

> > > > Checked by AVG.

> > > > Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.3/824 - Release Date:

> > > > 29/05/2007 13:01

> > > >

> > > >

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