[games_access] FORUM (was Re: GDC 2008: VERY Bad News)

AudioGames.net richard at audiogames.net
Sat Dec 1 14:33:15 EST 2007


(could that post be more full of typos?!? hihi... that was NOT a dyslexia
test ;)



----- Original Message -----
From: "AudioGames.net" <richard at audiogames.net>
To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 8:32 PM
Subject: Re: [games_access] FORUM (was Re: GDC 2008: VERY Bad News)



>I was not ciriticizing you so don't you don't feel criticized by me ;) I

>don't even know if everyone agrees to that plan anyway...? Do you? It's is

>just ONE option...

>

> Yes, I can help you.

>

>

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: "d. michelle hinn" <hinn at uiuc.edu>

> To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>

> Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 8:16 PM

> Subject: Re: [games_access] FORUM (was Re: GDC 2008: VERY Bad News)

>

>

>> Well, it seems that the IGDA web initiative is pretty dead at the moment

>> so there's no reason why we can't adopt the site. Can you help us/me get

>> in touch with the foundation again so that we can work this out and get

>> our web presence seriously back on track?

>>

>> Remember -- you've also had to take some time off from working with the

>> SIG (I know...I have a PhD to finish too but I'm not in as nice a

>> situation) so please remember that when you criticize about action not

>> being taken on this and that. Cool?

>>

>> Michelle

>>

>>>Hi,

>>>

>>>Just so you know: the GA forum was left unattended for some time but the

>>>spam was removed as far as I could see. The forum is still pretty

>>>popular, it's just that not that many SIG people attend it (because it is

>>>not an "offical SIG" forum?).

>>>

>>>As I also said in the past: the Accessibility foundation is still

>>>awaiting to be approached by the GA-SIG for collaborating on GA.com. I

>>>already explained to a couple of you that with me and Sander having left

>>>the foundation, most expertise left too. The foundation is currently

>>>focusing on other projects and does not have the resources to maintain

>>>this website at the moment. I already discussed a possible collaboration

>>>with GA-SIG with my boss - EVEN to the extend of GA-SIG ADOPTING GA.com

>>>and chaing it to a GA-SIG format - as if it was its own - with

>>>Accessibility only sponsoring the website in the form of hosting it. As

>>>far as I know, the foundation is still up for that. However, IGDA

>>>politics intervened which resulted in that IGDA GA-SIG still does not

>>>have a website to call their own. If GA-SIG does not want to collaborate

>>>with GA.com then I would still suggest to buy www.gasig.org and simply

>>>make a website under that for as long as IGDA politics keep intervening.

>>>

>>>Greets,

>>>

>>>Richard

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "John Bannick" <jbannick at 7128.com>

>>>To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>

>>>Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 7:20 PM

>>>Subject: Re: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News

>>>

>>>>Barrie,

>>>>

>>>>No. Not harsh. Just on point. (Programmers are not hired for their

>>>>social skills.)

>>>>

>>>>1. Yes.

>>>>

>>>>But this SIG is unique in that it is the one active place that covers

>>>>multiple challenges, has an international audience, and clearly has the

>>>>ears of some key industry players. If this SIG has its own concise,

>>>>specific, answer to "what do you want us developers to do?" please point

>>>>me to it.

>>>>

>>>>2. Again, this SIG has a unique position in that it can credibly publish

>>>>such a list, that address multiple challenges, internationally, and has

>>>>the ear of the major developers. Is there any such recognized list of

>>>>companies and games? Why not from this SIG?

>>>>

>>>>3. Please.

>>>>

>>>>I'm on the Game Accessibility Project forum every day. It's getting

>>>>spammed without intervention. It's much lower volume than such a fine

>>>>effort warrants. Richard says he's out of there. It's adrift.

>>>>

>>>>And Mark's forum is outstanding, but does not right now have the

>>>>attention of the industry leaders, or actual developers, that this SIG

>>>>does. (No criticism, he's doing a wonderful job.) I'm on Audyssey every

>>>>day and it has a very active set of game developers that help each other

>>>>all the time. But it's limited to the blind and VI folks.

>>>>

>>>>I'd not heard of the RetroRemakes forum (thanks for the tip) but

>>>>according to its main page, it's most recent post was in August.

>>>>

>>>>Show me a forum where mainstream game developers meet to help each other

>>>>make accessibility happen.

>>>>

>>>>The three proposals stand.

>>>>

>>>>John

>>>>

>>>>At 11:47 AM 12/1/2007, you wrote:

>>>>>A little harsh, John perhaps?

>>>>>

>>>>>1. Has been covered to various degrees here:

>>>>>

>>>>>http://www.oneswitch.org.uk/2/ARTICLES/physical-barriers.htm

>>>>>http://www.ics.forth.gr/hci/ua-games/game-over/

>>>>>http://www.helpyouplay.com/welcome.html

>>>>>

>>>>>(and other places too).

>>>>>

>>>>>2. Is is a good point. But there's so few mainstream developers making

>>>>>deliberate accessibity efforts that take into account specific

>>>>>disabilities. Here's a list of some:

>>>>>

>>>>>http://www.oneswitch.org.uk/2/pioneers.htm

>>>>>http://gameaccessibility.blogspot.com/

>>>>>

>>>>>3. Forums here:

>>>>>

>>>>>http://www.game-accessibility.com/forum/

>>>>>http://www.retroremakes.com/forum2/forumdisplay.php?f=84

>>>>>http://ablegamers.com/component/option,com_fireboard/Itemid,606/

>>>>>

>>>>>We need the support of more people though!

>>>>>

>>>>>Barrie

>>>>>www.OneSwitch.org.uk

>>>>>www.igda.org/accessibility

>>>>>

>>>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "John Bannick" <jbannick at 7128.com>

>>>>>To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>

>>>>>Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 4:05 PM

>>>>>Subject: Re: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News

>>>>>

>>>>>>Reid is right.

>>>>>>

>>>>>>There are developers right now who want their work to be accessible.

>>>>>>

>>>>>>This SIG could right now facilitate that by:

>>>>>>

>>>>>>1. Providing, distributing, and publicizing a concise, specific set of

>>>>>>functional criteria that define what means accessible.

>>>>>>2. Compiling, publishing, and publicizing an annual list of which

>>>>>>companies and games meet those criteria.

>>>>>>3. Maintaining a forum (The currently rather drifting Game

>>>>>>Accessibility Project comes to mind) where developers can go for

>>>>>>immediate help.

>>>>>>

>>>>>>I'm a developer of games that are accessible.

>>>>>>Have shipped 22 different revenue-generating products in a wide

>>>>>>variety of vertical markets in the last 30 years.

>>>>>>Am neither stupid nor lazy.

>>>>>>And don't see any of the 3 above items.

>>>>>>

>>>>>>None of the 3 items should take long to build as a first cut.

>>>>>>

>>>>>>And if not from this SIG, then from where?

>>>>>>

>>>>>>John Bannick

>>>>>>CTO

>>>>>>7-128 Software

>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>At 02:26 AM 12/1/2007, you wrote:

>>>>>>>Please, can we stop with the negative talk about GDC and the game

>>>>>>>industry? I work in the game industry for LucasArts. Just last week I

>>>>>>>talked to a highly respected programmer and he's 100% behind us and

>>>>>>>wants to talk about what we can do to improve accessibility in our

>>>>>>>games after our current milestone is finished. There are dozens of

>>>>>>>people at LucasArts that support game accessibility. Nintendo totally

>>>>>>>gets it, EA Games totally gets it with their Family Play modes in

>>>>>>>their sports games. Peter Molyneux gets it, Will Wright... the list

>>>>>>>goes on and on.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>It's offensive to me when people of this SIG accuse developers of not

>>>>>>>caring because WE DO CARE. The last thing you want to do is insult

>>>>>>>the

>>>>>>>people you have to work with. It's the quickest way to turn them away

>>>>>>>from our cause.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>So, instead of complaining, lets do something about it! First,

>>>>>>>everyone here needs to understand what it's like for developers and

>>>>>>>why it's so hard for them to adopt accessibility features.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>1. Limited financial resources - Games are very expensive to make and

>>>>>>>any new features adds to the cost. Before you can add accessibility

>>>>>>>features you must have a game and that's where most of the money is

>>>>>>>spent first.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>2. Limited time - Game development is incredibly complex and hard to

>>>>>>>tame. No matter how much extra time gets budgeted into the production

>>>>>>>schedule, it always runs out well before all tasks are complete. When

>>>>>>>this happens, features get cut in order to save the core of the game

>>>>>>>and again, without a game, there can't be any accessibility features.

>>>>>>>Because this usually happens so late, there isn't enough time to work

>>>>>>>on accessibility features before the game has to ship.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>3. Limited information - Even if a developer was pro-active and

>>>>>>>scheduled the development of accessibility features into the games'

>>>>>>>development schedule, there's still a major lack of knowledge and

>>>>>>>tools that enable them to do their job. The SIG has been thinking

>>>>>>>about accessibility features for years and we have all the solutions,

>>>>>>>but developers don't yet. We need to make ourselves known and readily

>>>>>>>available to help them.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>What can we do to solve these issues? We need to develop our

>>>>>>>relationships with developers and offer our assistance. Our attempts

>>>>>>>to work with GarageGames is a good start. When a new game is

>>>>>>>announced

>>>>>>>we should contact them and offer our expertise.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>We have GOT to get a website up so that we can communicate our

>>>>>>>abilities and expertise to our target audiences (game developers).

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>But there are technical issues and many of us are volunteers and so

>>>>>>>things move very slowly.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>Several of us are writing guidelines for implementing certain

>>>>>>>features

>>>>>>>but again, this is a slow process. Others are doing research. Going

>>>>>>>to

>>>>>>>conferences is awesome. Writing articles to Gamasutra is great as

>>>>>>>well.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>Eitan is right, we have to "sell" our expertise. It's not that

>>>>>>>developers don't care, they don't know that they SHOULD care.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>-Reid

>>>>>>>_______________________________________________

>>>>>>>games_access mailing list

>>>>>>>games_access at igda.org

>>>>>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>--

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>>>>>>>Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.11/1161 - Release Date:

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>>>>>>

>>>>>>_______________________________________________

>>>>>>games_access mailing list

>>>>>>games_access at igda.org

>>>>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>_______________________________________________

>>>>>games_access mailing list

>>>>>games_access at igda.org

>>>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access

>>>>>

>>>>>

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>>>>

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>>>

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