[games_access] FORUM (was Re: GDC 2008: VERY Bad News)

Sat Dec 1 14:32:01 EST 2007

I was not ciriticizing you so don't you don't feel criticized by me ;) I 
don't even know if everyone agrees to that plan anyway...? Do you? It's is 
just ONE option...

Yes, I can help you.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "d. michelle hinn" <hinn at uiuc.edu>
To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 8:16 PM
Subject: Re: [games_access] FORUM (was Re: GDC 2008: VERY Bad News)

> Well, it seems that the IGDA web initiative is pretty dead at the moment 
> so there's no reason why we can't adopt the site. Can you help us/me get 
> in touch with the foundation again so that we can work this out and get 
> our web presence seriously back on track?
>
> Remember -- you've also had to take some time off from working with the 
> SIG (I know...I have a PhD to finish too but I'm not in as nice a 
> situation) so please remember that when you criticize about action not 
> being taken on this and that. Cool?
>
> Michelle
>
>>Hi,
>>
>>Just so you know: the GA forum was left unattended for some time but the 
>>spam was removed as far as I could see. The forum is still pretty popular, 
>>it's just that not that many SIG people attend it (because it is not an 
>>"offical SIG" forum?).
>>
>>As I also said in the past: the Accessibility foundation is still awaiting 
>>to be approached by the GA-SIG for collaborating on GA.com. I already 
>>explained to a couple of you that with me and Sander having left the 
>>foundation, most expertise left too. The foundation is currently focusing 
>>on other projects and does not have the resources to maintain this website 
>>at the moment. I already discussed a possible collaboration with GA-SIG 
>>with my boss - EVEN to the extend of GA-SIG ADOPTING GA.com and chaing it 
>>to a GA-SIG format - as if it was its own - with Accessibility only 
>>sponsoring the website in the form of hosting it. As far as I know, the 
>>foundation is still up for that. However, IGDA politics intervened which 
>>resulted in that IGDA GA-SIG still does not have a website to call their 
>>own. If GA-SIG does not want to collaborate with GA.com then I would still 
>>suggest to buy www.gasig.org and simply make a website under that for as 
>>long as IGDA politics keep intervening.
>>
>>Greets,
>>
>>Richard
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message ----- From: "John Bannick" <jbannick at 7128.com>
>>To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
>>Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 7:20 PM
>>Subject: Re: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News
>>
>>>Barrie,
>>>
>>>No. Not harsh. Just on point. (Programmers are not hired for their social 
>>>skills.)
>>>
>>>1. Yes.
>>>
>>>But this SIG is unique in that it is the one active place that covers 
>>>multiple challenges, has an international audience, and clearly has the 
>>>ears of some key industry players. If this SIG has its own concise, 
>>>specific, answer to "what do you want us developers to do?" please point 
>>>me to it.
>>>
>>>2. Again, this SIG has a unique position in that it can credibly publish 
>>>such a list, that address multiple challenges, internationally, and has 
>>>the ear of the major developers. Is there any such recognized list of 
>>>companies and games? Why not from this SIG?
>>>
>>>3. Please.
>>>
>>>I'm on the Game Accessibility Project forum every day. It's getting 
>>>spammed without intervention. It's much lower volume than such a fine 
>>>effort warrants.  Richard says he's out of there. It's adrift.
>>>
>>>And Mark's forum is outstanding, but does not right now have the 
>>>attention of the industry leaders, or actual developers, that this SIG 
>>>does. (No criticism, he's doing a wonderful job.) I'm on Audyssey every 
>>>day and it has a very active set of game developers that help each other 
>>>all the time. But it's limited to the blind and VI folks.
>>>
>>>I'd not heard of the RetroRemakes forum (thanks for the tip) but 
>>>according to its main page, it's most recent post was in August.
>>>
>>>Show me a forum where mainstream game developers meet to help each other 
>>>make accessibility happen.
>>>
>>>The three proposals stand.
>>>
>>>John
>>>
>>>At 11:47 AM 12/1/2007, you wrote:
>>>>A little harsh, John perhaps?
>>>>
>>>>1. Has been covered to various degrees here:
>>>>
>>>>http://www.oneswitch.org.uk/2/ARTICLES/physical-barriers.htm
>>>>http://www.ics.forth.gr/hci/ua-games/game-over/
>>>>http://www.helpyouplay.com/welcome.html
>>>>
>>>>(and other places too).
>>>>
>>>>2. Is is a good point. But there's so few mainstream developers making 
>>>>deliberate accessibity efforts that take into account specific 
>>>>disabilities. Here's a list of some:
>>>>
>>>>http://www.oneswitch.org.uk/2/pioneers.htm
>>>>http://gameaccessibility.blogspot.com/
>>>>
>>>>3. Forums here:
>>>>
>>>>http://www.game-accessibility.com/forum/
>>>>http://www.retroremakes.com/forum2/forumdisplay.php?f=84
>>>>http://ablegamers.com/component/option,com_fireboard/Itemid,606/
>>>>
>>>>We need the support of more people though!
>>>>
>>>>Barrie
>>>>www.OneSwitch.org.uk
>>>>www.igda.org/accessibility
>>>>
>>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "John Bannick" <jbannick at 7128.com>
>>>>To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
>>>>Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 4:05 PM
>>>>Subject: Re: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News
>>>>
>>>>>Reid is right.
>>>>>
>>>>>There are developers right now who want their work to be accessible.
>>>>>
>>>>>This SIG could right now facilitate that by:
>>>>>
>>>>>1. Providing, distributing, and publicizing a concise, specific set of 
>>>>>functional criteria that define what means accessible.
>>>>>2. Compiling, publishing, and publicizing an annual list of which 
>>>>>companies and games meet those criteria.
>>>>>3. Maintaining a forum (The currently rather drifting Game 
>>>>>Accessibility Project comes to mind) where developers can go for 
>>>>>immediate help.
>>>>>
>>>>>I'm a developer of games that are accessible.
>>>>>Have shipped 22 different revenue-generating products in a wide variety 
>>>>>of vertical markets in the last 30 years.
>>>>>Am neither stupid nor lazy.
>>>>>And don't see any of the 3 above items.
>>>>>
>>>>>None of the 3 items should take long to build as a first cut.
>>>>>
>>>>>And if not from this SIG, then from where?
>>>>>
>>>>>John Bannick
>>>>>CTO
>>>>>7-128 Software
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>At 02:26 AM 12/1/2007, you wrote:
>>>>>>Please, can we stop with the negative talk about GDC and the game
>>>>>>industry? I work in the game industry for LucasArts. Just last week I
>>>>>>talked to a highly respected programmer and he's 100% behind us and
>>>>>>wants to talk about what we can do to improve accessibility in our
>>>>>>games after our current milestone is finished. There are dozens of
>>>>>>people at LucasArts that support game accessibility. Nintendo totally
>>>>>>gets it, EA Games totally gets it with their Family Play modes in
>>>>>>their sports games. Peter Molyneux gets it, Will Wright... the list
>>>>>>goes on and on.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>It's offensive to me when people of this SIG accuse developers of not
>>>>>>caring because WE DO CARE. The last thing you want to do is insult the
>>>>>>people you have to work with. It's the quickest way to turn them away
>>>>>>from our cause.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>So, instead of complaining, lets do something about it! First,
>>>>>>everyone here needs to understand what it's like for developers and
>>>>>>why it's so hard for them to adopt accessibility features.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>1. Limited financial resources - Games are very expensive to make and
>>>>>>any new features adds to the cost. Before you can add accessibility
>>>>>>features you must have a game and that's where most of the money is
>>>>>>spent first.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>2. Limited time - Game development is incredibly complex and hard to
>>>>>>tame. No matter how much extra time gets budgeted into the production
>>>>>>schedule, it always runs out well before all tasks are complete. When
>>>>>>this happens, features get cut in order to save the core of the game
>>>>>>and again, without a game, there can't be any accessibility features.
>>>>>>Because this usually happens so late, there isn't enough time to work
>>>>>>on accessibility features before the game has to ship.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>3. Limited information - Even if a developer was pro-active and
>>>>>>scheduled the development of accessibility features into the games'
>>>>>>development schedule, there's still a major lack of knowledge and
>>>>>>tools that enable them to do their job. The SIG has been thinking
>>>>>>about accessibility features for years and we have all the solutions,
>>>>>>but developers don't yet. We need to make ourselves known and readily
>>>>>>available to help them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>What can we do to solve these issues? We need to develop our
>>>>>>relationships with developers and offer our assistance. Our attempts
>>>>>>to work with GarageGames is a good start. When a new game is announced
>>>>>>we should contact them and offer our expertise.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>We have GOT to get a website up so that we can communicate our
>>>>>>abilities and expertise to our target audiences (game developers).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>But there are technical issues and many of us are volunteers and so
>>>>>>things move very slowly.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Several of us are writing guidelines for implementing certain features
>>>>>>but again, this is a slow process. Others are doing research. Going to
>>>>>>conferences is awesome. Writing articles to Gamasutra is great as
>>>>>>well.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Eitan is right, we have to "sell" our expertise. It's not that
>>>>>>developers don't care, they don't know that they SHOULD care.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>-Reid
>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>games_access mailing list
>>>>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>>11/30/2007 12:12 PM
>>>>>
>>>>>_______________________________________________
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>>>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
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