[games_access] FORUM (was Re: GDC 2008: VERY Bad News)

Sat Dec 1 14:33:15 EST 2007

(could that post be more full of typos?!? hihi... that was NOT a dyslexia 
test ;)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "AudioGames.net" <richard at audiogames.net>
To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 8:32 PM
Subject: Re: [games_access] FORUM (was Re: GDC 2008: VERY Bad News)

>I was not ciriticizing you so don't you don't feel criticized by me ;) I 
>don't even know if everyone agrees to that plan anyway...? Do you? It's is 
>just ONE option...
>
> Yes, I can help you.
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "d. michelle hinn" <hinn at uiuc.edu>
> To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
> Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 8:16 PM
> Subject: Re: [games_access] FORUM (was Re: GDC 2008: VERY Bad News)
>
>
>> Well, it seems that the IGDA web initiative is pretty dead at the moment 
>> so there's no reason why we can't adopt the site. Can you help us/me get 
>> in touch with the foundation again so that we can work this out and get 
>> our web presence seriously back on track?
>>
>> Remember -- you've also had to take some time off from working with the 
>> SIG (I know...I have a PhD to finish too but I'm not in as nice a 
>> situation) so please remember that when you criticize about action not 
>> being taken on this and that. Cool?
>>
>> Michelle
>>
>>>Hi,
>>>
>>>Just so you know: the GA forum was left unattended for some time but the 
>>>spam was removed as far as I could see. The forum is still pretty 
>>>popular, it's just that not that many SIG people attend it (because it is 
>>>not an "offical SIG" forum?).
>>>
>>>As I also said in the past: the Accessibility foundation is still 
>>>awaiting to be approached by the GA-SIG for collaborating on GA.com. I 
>>>already explained to a couple of you that with me and Sander having left 
>>>the foundation, most expertise left too. The foundation is currently 
>>>focusing on other projects and does not have the resources to maintain 
>>>this website at the moment. I already discussed a possible collaboration 
>>>with GA-SIG with my boss - EVEN to the extend of GA-SIG ADOPTING GA.com 
>>>and chaing it to a GA-SIG format - as if it was its own - with 
>>>Accessibility only sponsoring the website in the form of hosting it. As 
>>>far as I know, the foundation is still up for that. However, IGDA 
>>>politics intervened which resulted in that IGDA GA-SIG still does not 
>>>have a website to call their own. If GA-SIG does not want to collaborate 
>>>with GA.com then I would still suggest to buy www.gasig.org and simply 
>>>make a website under that for as long as IGDA politics keep intervening.
>>>
>>>Greets,
>>>
>>>Richard
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "John Bannick" <jbannick at 7128.com>
>>>To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
>>>Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 7:20 PM
>>>Subject: Re: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News
>>>
>>>>Barrie,
>>>>
>>>>No. Not harsh. Just on point. (Programmers are not hired for their 
>>>>social skills.)
>>>>
>>>>1. Yes.
>>>>
>>>>But this SIG is unique in that it is the one active place that covers 
>>>>multiple challenges, has an international audience, and clearly has the 
>>>>ears of some key industry players. If this SIG has its own concise, 
>>>>specific, answer to "what do you want us developers to do?" please point 
>>>>me to it.
>>>>
>>>>2. Again, this SIG has a unique position in that it can credibly publish 
>>>>such a list, that address multiple challenges, internationally, and has 
>>>>the ear of the major developers. Is there any such recognized list of 
>>>>companies and games? Why not from this SIG?
>>>>
>>>>3. Please.
>>>>
>>>>I'm on the Game Accessibility Project forum every day. It's getting 
>>>>spammed without intervention. It's much lower volume than such a fine 
>>>>effort warrants.  Richard says he's out of there. It's adrift.
>>>>
>>>>And Mark's forum is outstanding, but does not right now have the 
>>>>attention of the industry leaders, or actual developers, that this SIG 
>>>>does. (No criticism, he's doing a wonderful job.) I'm on Audyssey every 
>>>>day and it has a very active set of game developers that help each other 
>>>>all the time. But it's limited to the blind and VI folks.
>>>>
>>>>I'd not heard of the RetroRemakes forum (thanks for the tip) but 
>>>>according to its main page, it's most recent post was in August.
>>>>
>>>>Show me a forum where mainstream game developers meet to help each other 
>>>>make accessibility happen.
>>>>
>>>>The three proposals stand.
>>>>
>>>>John
>>>>
>>>>At 11:47 AM 12/1/2007, you wrote:
>>>>>A little harsh, John perhaps?
>>>>>
>>>>>1. Has been covered to various degrees here:
>>>>>
>>>>>http://www.oneswitch.org.uk/2/ARTICLES/physical-barriers.htm
>>>>>http://www.ics.forth.gr/hci/ua-games/game-over/
>>>>>http://www.helpyouplay.com/welcome.html
>>>>>
>>>>>(and other places too).
>>>>>
>>>>>2. Is is a good point. But there's so few mainstream developers making 
>>>>>deliberate accessibity efforts that take into account specific 
>>>>>disabilities. Here's a list of some:
>>>>>
>>>>>http://www.oneswitch.org.uk/2/pioneers.htm
>>>>>http://gameaccessibility.blogspot.com/
>>>>>
>>>>>3. Forums here:
>>>>>
>>>>>http://www.game-accessibility.com/forum/
>>>>>http://www.retroremakes.com/forum2/forumdisplay.php?f=84
>>>>>http://ablegamers.com/component/option,com_fireboard/Itemid,606/
>>>>>
>>>>>We need the support of more people though!
>>>>>
>>>>>Barrie
>>>>>www.OneSwitch.org.uk
>>>>>www.igda.org/accessibility
>>>>>
>>>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "John Bannick" <jbannick at 7128.com>
>>>>>To: "IGDA Games Accessibility SIG Mailing List" <games_access at igda.org>
>>>>>Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 4:05 PM
>>>>>Subject: Re: [games_access] GDC 2008: VERY Bad News
>>>>>
>>>>>>Reid is right.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>There are developers right now who want their work to be accessible.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>This SIG could right now facilitate that by:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>1. Providing, distributing, and publicizing a concise, specific set of 
>>>>>>functional criteria that define what means accessible.
>>>>>>2. Compiling, publishing, and publicizing an annual list of which 
>>>>>>companies and games meet those criteria.
>>>>>>3. Maintaining a forum (The currently rather drifting Game 
>>>>>>Accessibility Project comes to mind) where developers can go for 
>>>>>>immediate help.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I'm a developer of games that are accessible.
>>>>>>Have shipped 22 different revenue-generating products in a wide 
>>>>>>variety of vertical markets in the last 30 years.
>>>>>>Am neither stupid nor lazy.
>>>>>>And don't see any of the 3 above items.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>None of the 3 items should take long to build as a first cut.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>And if not from this SIG, then from where?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>John Bannick
>>>>>>CTO
>>>>>>7-128 Software
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>At 02:26 AM 12/1/2007, you wrote:
>>>>>>>Please, can we stop with the negative talk about GDC and the game
>>>>>>>industry? I work in the game industry for LucasArts. Just last week I
>>>>>>>talked to a highly respected programmer and he's 100% behind us and
>>>>>>>wants to talk about what we can do to improve accessibility in our
>>>>>>>games after our current milestone is finished. There are dozens of
>>>>>>>people at LucasArts that support game accessibility. Nintendo totally
>>>>>>>gets it, EA Games totally gets it with their Family Play modes in
>>>>>>>their sports games. Peter Molyneux gets it, Will Wright... the list
>>>>>>>goes on and on.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>It's offensive to me when people of this SIG accuse developers of not
>>>>>>>caring because WE DO CARE. The last thing you want to do is insult 
>>>>>>>the
>>>>>>>people you have to work with. It's the quickest way to turn them away
>>>>>>>from our cause.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>So, instead of complaining, lets do something about it! First,
>>>>>>>everyone here needs to understand what it's like for developers and
>>>>>>>why it's so hard for them to adopt accessibility features.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>1. Limited financial resources - Games are very expensive to make and
>>>>>>>any new features adds to the cost. Before you can add accessibility
>>>>>>>features you must have a game and that's where most of the money is
>>>>>>>spent first.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>2. Limited time - Game development is incredibly complex and hard to
>>>>>>>tame. No matter how much extra time gets budgeted into the production
>>>>>>>schedule, it always runs out well before all tasks are complete. When
>>>>>>>this happens, features get cut in order to save the core of the game
>>>>>>>and again, without a game, there can't be any accessibility features.
>>>>>>>Because this usually happens so late, there isn't enough time to work
>>>>>>>on accessibility features before the game has to ship.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>3. Limited information - Even if a developer was pro-active and
>>>>>>>scheduled the development of accessibility features into the games'
>>>>>>>development schedule, there's still a major lack of knowledge and
>>>>>>>tools that enable them to do their job. The SIG has been thinking
>>>>>>>about accessibility features for years and we have all the solutions,
>>>>>>>but developers don't yet. We need to make ourselves known and readily
>>>>>>>available to help them.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>What can we do to solve these issues? We need to develop our
>>>>>>>relationships with developers and offer our assistance. Our attempts
>>>>>>>to work with GarageGames is a good start. When a new game is 
>>>>>>>announced
>>>>>>>we should contact them and offer our expertise.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>We have GOT to get a website up so that we can communicate our
>>>>>>>abilities and expertise to our target audiences (game developers).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>But there are technical issues and many of us are volunteers and so
>>>>>>>things move very slowly.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Several of us are writing guidelines for implementing certain 
>>>>>>>features
>>>>>>>but again, this is a slow process. Others are doing research. Going 
>>>>>>>to
>>>>>>>conferences is awesome. Writing articles to Gamasutra is great as
>>>>>>>well.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Eitan is right, we have to "sell" our expertise. It's not that
>>>>>>>developers don't care, they don't know that they SHOULD care.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>-Reid
>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>games_access mailing list
>>>>>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>>>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>--
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>>>>>>>Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.11/1161 - Release Date: 
>>>>>>>11/30/2007 12:12 PM
>>>>>>
>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>games_access mailing list
>>>>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>games_access mailing list
>>>>>games_access at igda.org
>>>>>http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/games_access
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>
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>>>
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