[casual_games] RE: Copycats -- What Can Be Done?

Wed Jul 19 14:44:08 EDT 2006

>Heck, Popcap is certainly more than capable of discerning themselves 
>which Zuma-clones they feel they have grounds to sue over (see first 
>paragraph of the review of Magnetica: 
>http://gba.gamespy.com/nintendo-ds/puzzeloop/711555p1.html), so mine 
>is just another opinion from the "Peanut Gallery". It's the beauty of 
>the Internet, everyone has a platform, do they not?  :)

Notably it's PopCap that had allegendly been sued for cloning Puzzle
Loop with Zuma not the other way around.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zuma_(game) &
http://www.insertcredit.com/features/hitofude/)

Russell Carroll

-----Original Message-----
From: casual_games-bounces at igda.org
[mailto:casual_games-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Jamie Carlson
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 11:14 AM
To: IGDA Casual Games SIG Mailing List; casual_games at igda.org
Subject: Re: [casual_games] RE: Copycats -- What Can Be Done?

Hi Kim,

>- Jamie, You've spawned a good discussion. However, if you are going to

>start accusing people of such things, the *least* you could do is 
>download the game, vs watching the preview video.

Totally agree. And I did give Dynasty about 15 minutes but was unable 
to get the "explosion" or "slow down" powerups so was unable to hear 
their respective sounds (I only was able to get the "colored dragon" 
powerups which eat the like-colored eggs down the level's path).

After that initial sampling, and when compounded by my positive-bias 
towards BigFishGames, I just deemed it to be inconceivable that BFG 
would go to the trouble to alter the video and overlay Zuma's 
sounds... obviously, I was wrong.

I thank James Smith for verifying this for me as well:

>James Smith said:
>When I watched the movie on BigFishGames.com I was amazed that such
>a similar sound would be used for such a similar purpose. It seemed 
>very unjust.   But when I played the actual game I did not find 
>anything I considered to be an unjust use of sounds.

>- The "dislodging" of the 'launcher' actually is an interesting 
>mechanic change. You don't 'fire' the balls so much as swap them. In 
>many ways this is more a bejewelled & Zuma hybrid more than it is a 
>Zuma clone. In this way it's probably far more unique than many of the 
>chainpoppers I see come across my desk.

After that initial 15 minutes, I admitted that the game is unique 
enough to not be labelled as a straight "clone" of Zuma:

>Jamie said:
>I played the trial and to further re-enforce the "It's different
>enough to be OK" standpoint they did change the gameplay mechanic 
>significantly. The player "swaps" the dragon egg with the egg 
>currently in the dragon's mouth. So in essence, this enables the 
>player the ability to plan ahead and stage his own chains down the 
>line (i.e. see 
><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetris_Attack>Tetris<http://en.wikipedia.
org/wiki/Tetris_Attack> 
>Attack or numerous other puzzle games that are built upon this 
>mechanic). It's an interesting twist to the Zuma formula.... but 
>again, I'm moving along.

>I agree the sound effects are similar, but I don't agree they are
>identical. Running the EXE's side by side, I found Dynasty's effects
had
>more reverb and more of a tinny sound to them. Did they literally
*copy*
>them from the other app? If so, then yeah, that's a problem. However,
if
>they mimicked them, or their audio people just thought "yeah, that's
the
>sounds gems make when they collapse" or something, then I guess it's a
>point for debate.

Having played it for 15 minutes, I can attest that they are totally 
separate sound treatments... However, the BFG video was an entirely 
different story and probably should be changed.

>How unique does a sound have to be to make it copyrightable? How many
of
>the casual games out there have "coin collect" sounds that sound *a
>little* similar to Mario on the SNES?

Sure, but Dynasty is clearly trying to capitalize on the 
action/puzzle "chain-popper (as you called it)" fanbase which the 
release of Zuma helped cultivate in the first place. Anyone who 
downloads the game is doing so because they predominately enjoyed 
Zuma or Luxor, not because "they like dragons".  :)

If a side-scrolling platform game (marketed at Casual gamers) came 
around with a 3D rendered "Portugese" plumber who came up on the 
title screen and said "Its-a me, Martino!"... well, then yes, I think 
that's a bit much.  :)

The "Portugese plumber" example is tantamount to what I "perceived" 
was being done with the sound effects straight from Zuma...

>P.S. I think that "copy mechanic, change theme" may be copycatting, but
>it addresses valid market demands. Some people may prefer a
>Space/Pirate/Kitten/Diner theme to an Aztec/Egyptian/Asian theme. It's
>unfortunate that we don't always see innovation with the gameplay with
>these, but that doesn't mean there isn't market demand for it.

Agreed with this in a previous email. I usually don't have a problem 
with the clones that do a complete "thematic change" and add/tweak a 
few mechanics. If it's done right then the experience is worthwhile 
in itself (for the most part). Again, I'm not sure it's worth the 
purchase price but that decision is entirely relative to the customer 
who is playing it.

>Same holds true for first person shooters, RTS, and other games as
well.
>Sometimes it's the same game with 'aliens invading earth' vs 'space
>marine invading alien planet'.

Again, the entire conversation stemmed from the fact that the sounds 
were exact replicas of those used in Zuma... since it appears as 
though that is not the case, then the entire discussion is moot.

>I agree the sound effects are similar, but I don't agree they are
>identical. Running the EXE's side by side, I found Dynasty's effects
had
>more reverb and more of a tinny sound to them. Did they literally
*copy*
>them from the other app? If so, then yeah, that's a problem.

It was my assertion that they did (as was the case when James Smith 
saw the video on BFG, as well). If that's not true, then they're no 
worse than any other game out there with a slight twist on a proven 
successful concept/game_style.

>However, if they mimicked them, or their audio people just thought 
>"yeah, that's the
>sounds gems make when they collapse" or something, then I guess it's a
>point for debate.

Would I pay $20 for Dynasty? No probably not... but again, that's
irrelevant.

I'm sure thousands of others will buy it much to the pleasure of MSN, 
Bigfishgames, and others (see Brian Robbin's "Don't Roll Over" or 
"One Billion Dollars" presentations shown at Casuality a few weeks ago).

Thanks for your time and thoughtful response,
- Jamie 

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